What kind of accuracy should I expect

[jcmullis2]

I’ve seen several posts from others referring to the accuracy of their new rifles. Some were pleased with the results others were disappointed. I personally can’t shoot much better than 1/2 moa. I say that because I’ve had friends get better groups with my rifles than the 1/2 moa that I typically get. I’ve gotten 1/4moa groups a few times over many years but a busted clock is right twice a day also. I have a new r700 police 308 on the way and I figure it’ll probably shoot 1/2moa also. So I got to wondering what others expect from their new rifles. I appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this.

 

[Newbie2020]

I haven’t had a ton of rifles (Like @Steel head ) but factory rifles sure seem better today than 30 years ago. 2 moa used to be a good factory hunting rifle. 1 moa maybe shouldn’t be the expectation of a $450 rifle but they do exist. $1,500 factory offerings are all (Mostly?) coming out moa or better. My Seekins Havak 6.5cm and my buddy’s 2 Havak 6.5 PRCs are all sub moa and I’m no marksman. A friend just bought a Rem700 PCR and it was sub moa out of the box. 1/2 MOA is probably a bit much to expect from even a nice factory rifle but I think they’re out there also.

 

[jcmullis2]

Steel head is a pretty knowledgeable fella and tells it like it is. I’ve accumulated quite a few rifles over many years and have been fortunate not to have gotten any 2 moa rifles. I know they’re out there because I’ve seen them at the range. I would be damn disappointed if a got anything that couldn’t at least shoot 1 moa with good factory ammo. Just the other day a guy on here was disappointed with his custom rig because it was only shooting about 1/2moa with factory ammo. I see lots of guys here talking about 1/4 moa groups if they do their part and it got me wondering if some aren’t stretching the truth a mite. Five shot groups in the .2s aren’t an easy task. I suppose if you don’t count the bad ones it’s not so difficult.

 

[Newbie2020]

I always value @Steel head s comments and contributions.

Pro tip: Always put a dime over the flyer when you take a pic “for scale”

 

[sam4886]

I think most factory rifles these days will shoot better then most people can. The factory ammo is usually the limiting factor. Reloads can always do better, as most know, but there are tons of variables and it comes down to how precises people are willing to get with their process.

Howa, as an example, has a sub moa guarantee on, i think, everything they make and they've got quite a few rifles in the $500 range.

1/2 moa expectations for a custom rig with decent load development is totally not of the question. 1/4 moa with anal retentive load development is fine too. Again, I think the biggest limiting factor is the turd yanking the bang button, not the rifle.

Hell, my factory 6.5 creed howa loaded with my halfway decent developed Lee turret loads still holds 3/4 moa if I don't suck. Its got over 3k on the barrel, too.

 

[Steel head]

I shoot very few groups on paper anymore.
Mostly just to zero.
If a rifle I use for long range consistently gets 5/8 moa or better I’m totally happy as long a vertical is happy.
My standards are different than a BR or F class shooter as I just shoot steel at distance.
That said My current 7 saum brux Seems to be decent, I had to get higher rings to better use my Charlie Tarac and had to re zero a few months ago.
This is 5 shots, one on paper the rest to confirm zero.
This is basically just the load from my last barrel.

For long range I feel a a solid ES and consistent bullets far more important than the difference from 1/4 to 3/4 moa.
5 years ago I guarantee I couldn’t shoot that group.
I’m a far more confident and relaxed shooter now.

Don’t sweat tiny groups, learn wind and fundamentals.

 

[jcmullis2]

I shoot very few groups on paper anymore.
Mostly just to zero.
If a rifle I use for long range consistently gets 5/8 moa or better I’m totally happy as long a vertical is happy.
My standards are different than a BR or F class shooter as I just shoot steel at distance.
That said My current 7 saum brux Seems to be decent, I had to get higher rings to better use my Charlie Tarac and had to re zero a few months ago.
This is 5 shots, one on paper the rest to confirm zero.
This is basically just the load from my last barrel.
View attachment 7427065
For long range I feel a a solid ES and consistent bullets far more important than the difference from 1/4 to 3/4 moa.
5 years ago I guarantee I couldn’t shoot that group.
I’m a far more confident and relaxed shooter now.

Don’t sweat tiny groups, learn wind and fundamentals.

That’s a fine group there. Im gonna have to get me one of those Charlie’s

 

[1moaoff]

Fyi the Charlie's are for elr. Not shooting groups.

Small groups at 100 are 3 things
Rifle system
Ammunition
Shooter skill

Typically a good factory gun with good factory ammo it likes should be 1" or better.

To me that's the absolute maximum
acceptable place to start on all factory setups. But that's me. And I don't buy factory guns and have not for years.
A semi custom or full custom should easily be 5/8 or better with the right ammo. Alot of us on the site have rifles that will shoot under 1/2 easily. Now push the distance, add in wind, add in a position... and things change.

Remember this is all context and predicated on alot of different things. Don't get hung up on what others can do or use as a baseline. Make that decision based on you and your gear and the type of shooting you want to do.

PS my gun room has hairballs on the floor today

 

[hafejd30]

Keep in mind many people hand pick 1 group of 5, post it, and claim that rifle does this “all day long”

From my personal experience, rifles today are generally very accurate. 1/2 MOA isn’t out of the question with reloads or fgmm

That said the Remingtons I’ve seen (owned 3 in the last several years) are more 3/4-1moa rifles. I personally see better consistent accuracy out of savage rifles. Which generally get into the 1/2 MOA range without much load development

I hope your Remington is a tack driver. My LGS recently received a couple 700’s that the bolts wouldn’t close from the factory. Another received one where the barrel wasn’t rifled. So give it a once over when you pick it up

 

[jcmullis2]

Fyi the Charlie's are for elr. Not shooting groups.

Small groups at 100 are 3 things
Rifle system
Ammunition
Shooter skill

Typically a good factory gun with good factory ammo it likes should be 1" or better.

To me that's the absolute maximum
acceptable place to start on all factory setups. But that's me. And I don't buy factory guns and have not for years.
A semi custom or full custom should easily be 5/8 or better with the right ammo. Alot of us on the site have rifles that will shoot under 1/2 easily. Now push the distance, add in wind, add in a position... and things change.

Remember this is all context and predicated on alot of different things. Don't get hung up on what others can do or use as a baseline. Make that decision based on you and your gear and the type of shooting you want to do.

PS my gun room has hairballs on the floor today


View attachment 7427345

Lol. I know what the Charlie Tarac is. I couldn’t help myself. I was being facetious or playing country dumb as we call it. I’ve been accumulating rifles for over 40 years primarily Remington but I also have a few custom rigs. I’ve been fortunate that I haven’t got a bad one so far. I’ve had a few chassis that I didn’t like but that’s to be expected.
I posted this question because I think many people have unrealistic expectations of their new rifles. I believe some read about everyone shooting 1/4 moa groups and they think something is wrong with their rifles. I thought if others like yourself shared their thoughts and experiences it would help new shooters. I think people need to understand that more goes into this than just buying a rifle and scope. Guys like steel head, yourself and others have summed things up nicely. Like I said earlier, a fella the other day was unhappy with 1/2 moa groups with factory ammo and it got me thinking wtf. I appreciate you guys and I’m sure others will too.

 

[Baron23]

Lol. I know what the Charlie Tarac is. I couldn’t help myself. I was being facetious or playing country dumb as we call it. I’ve been accumulating rifles for over 40 years primarily Remington but I also have a few custom rigs. I’ve been fortunate that I haven’t got a bad one so far. I’ve had a few chassis that I didn’t like but that’s to be expected.
I posted this question because I think many people have unrealistic expectations of their new rifles. I believe some read about everyone shooting 1/4 moa groups and they think something is wrong with their rifles. I thought if others like yourself shared their thoughts and experiences it would help new shooters. I think people need to understand that more goes into this than just buying a rifle and scope. Guys like steel head, yourself and others have summed things up nicely. Like I said earlier, a fella the other day was unhappy with 1/2 moa groups with factory ammo and it got me thinking wtf. I appreciate you guys and I’m sure others will too.

I found that skim bedding a Rem 5R (in .308, 20" barrel) and putting in a more consistent trigger really helped tighten the gun up. May consider this with your new Police. Just a thought.

 

[MakeSawdust]

I have not shot factory ammo in nearly a decade and a half. With a factory barrel, I'm typically looking at a gun that will shoot .5-.8 groups with handloads. Occasionally one will shoot exceptionally. I had a savage in 243 that would shoot 70 gr. Nosler bt into 3/8", but I didn't know it took 5 shots to make a group at that time and all of those groups were 3 shots. I took the same gun and screwed a 22/250 savage takeoff barrel on it. I ran a stiff load of varget with 55 gr bullets for a long time. With sierra sbt the gun shot around 3/4 moa. With nosler bt around .5 moa, and with berger target hp it shot 1/4" to 3/8" at 100 yrds for 3 shots.

Very few people can shoot quarter moa all day long. If I have a gun that is shooting well, it will shoot really small say 4 out of 5 or 5 out of 6 groups. I can't shoot quarter minute all day long. In one or two of those groups I will have four shots tight and have a shot that opens it up to around half moa or slightly more. I usually assume that is either me or the bullet and not the gun. Also, I shoot prs. If the gun is shooting .3-.4" at 100 yrds and that holds at distance I call it good. The only time I get better than that is when I luckily land on a load that will do it.

It's been a long time since I have had a gun with a factory barrel. With a good custom barrel, the biggest groups I often see during load development are around 3/4" at 100 yds. There are also typically a few lucky one hole groups mixed in there as well. If a gun and shooter can consistently shoot and print less than 1/2 moa groups 90% of the time that is damn good. I will also say it is a lot easier to lay down a half moa group with a gun that will shoot one hole. It is WORK to shoot a 1/2 moa group with a half moa gun.

 

[Ranger188]

It all depends on if your talking a "factory" rifle shooting factory ammo
or hand loads.
Then if you have a put together rifle with quality parts and hand loads.
Or full blown custom F class or BR rifle.
Expectations are different with each.

 

[swampbuck]

Also let's not forget to mention that caliber makes a difference. I new rifle in 308 shooting FGMM may be .25 moa most of the time but anything above 30 cal is different. A 338 of any kind can't be expected to have the accuracy of a 6mm. All else equal.

 

[Flightmurse]

I used to spend a lot of time at the reloading bench chasing group size and trying to squeeze the best accuracy that I could out of my feeble savage, and have several 5 shot groups that were less than half moa. I still enjoy shooting for groups, but small groups from a bench impress me less than they used to.
I want to be able to hit a target first shot at whatever distance and feel comfortable that I can hit it. Right now that range is around 400 yards for me, but it’s getting further.