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What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

SReichert

SReichert

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Feb 18, 2012
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#1
I recently saw a SNCO joking around saying that the other Marines at the table weren’t snipers since they never went to the formal school. The Marines he was referring to had multiple combat deployments and had probably killed more people than those sitting in the restaurant. It got me thinking, as I remember the definition of a Marine Sniper verbatim from many years ago. A Marine sniper is a Marine highly trained in field craft and marksmanship who delivers long range precision fire on selected targets from concealed positions in support of combat operations. So why the hell was the SNCO giving these Marines crap for not having a piece of paper on the wall?

These Marines were highly trained in field craft and marksmanship. They delivered long range precision fire from concealed positions and they did so in the middle of a war (combat operations). Referring to Marines like these as “not real snipers” is an insult to them and to those who have gone before.

The “Quantico Mafia” types get bent out of shape when people are referred to as Marine snipers without going through one of the formal schools. According to the old Marine Corps official issue manuals and documents I have sitting on my book shelf a Marine sniper is:

<span style="font-weight: bold">-A Marine highly skilled in field craft
-and marksmanship
-who delivers long range precision fire on selected targets
-from concealed positions
-in support of combat operations</span>

Nowhere in any of the manuals or student handouts does it say “A Marine sniper is a Marine who has attended a (insert current length) week period of instruction given by Marine scout/sniper instructors at one of four locations.”

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Some</span></span> snipers I have met over the years hang their hats on the graduation certificate as if it makes them know it all’s…. but by old & current definitions a Marine could go through the school 100 times and never meet the definition until he’s deployed into a combat zone and kills someone. This mentality pisses me off to no end. It’s like telling the 8,000+ Marines who fought in the Chosin Reservoir (some of them as snipers) during the Korean War that they are not Marines because they did not attend a formal Marine Corps Boot Camp (Link here) . They earned their place in history by their actions, not by a diploma on the wall. If a Marine meets the definition as it is stated then he deserves the title... as one of the MARSOC SgtMaj's once said "If you earned the title of "Sniper" from your brothers in combat, that is your certificate"

1950SS1.jpg


 
#2
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The “Quantico Mafia” types get bent out of shape when people are referred to as Marine snipers without going through one of the formal schools</div></div>

I agree with you, Hang around here a bit longer you'll find a lot of Hide Members who say the same thing about not being a sniper unless you have the school.
 
#3
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

Funny you bring that up Steve, it was not so long ago on this very site where there was a spirited debate on this EXACT topic.

Being that I was never a Sniper, I didn't comment but the general consensus was that it didn't matter if a Pig had multiple combat deployments with a STA platoon and did his time behind a gun, he still wasn't consider a HOG due to the fact that he never went to school.

On the other hand if you had a guy who was school trained but never saw any combat he would called a sniper.

Wish I could find that thread for you.
 
#4
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

I figured I would weigh in on this as I am recently returned from active duty and have several friends who are and served with many "snipers" both school trained and not school trained. The current mentality of not being a "sniper" without having been through the school is due to the fact that as a graduate of a formal sniper school the Marine receives the MOS of Scout/Sniper. So by that definition your not a "sniper" until you receive that MOS designation. Kind of like saying a Jewish kid isn't a man until hes had his barmitzvah (I know the spelling is way off).
 
#5
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HunterOfGunmen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently saw a SNCO joking around saying that the other Marines at the table weren’t snipers since they never went to the formal school. The Marines he was referring to had multiple combat deployments and had probably killed more people than those sitting in the restaurant. It got me thinking, as I remember the definition of a Marine Sniper verbatim from many years ago. A Marine sniper is a Marine highly trained in field craft and marksmanship who delivers long range precision fire on selected targets from concealed positions in support of combat operations. So why the hell was the SNCO giving these Marines crap for not having a piece of paper on the wall?

These Marines were highly trained in field craft and marksmanship. They delivered long range precision fire from concealed positions and they did so in the middle of a war (combat operations). Referring to Marines like these as “not real snipers” is an insult to them and to those who have gone before.

The “Quantico Mafia” types get bent out of shape when people are referred to as Marine snipers without going through one of the formal schools. According to the old Marine Corps official issue manuals and documents I have sitting on my book shelf a Marine sniper is:

<span style="font-weight: bold">-A Marine highly skilled in field craft
-and marksmanship
-who delivers long range precision fire on selected targets
-from concealed positions
-in support of combat operations</span>

Nowhere in any of the manuals or student handouts does it say “A Marine sniper is a Marine who has attended a (insert current length) week period of instruction given by Marine scout/sniper instructors at one of four locations.”

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Some</span></span> snipers I have met over the years hang their hats on the graduation certificate as if it makes them know it all’s…. but by old & current definitions a Marine could go through the school 100 times and never meet the definition until he’s deployed into a combat zone and kills someone. This mentality pisses me off to no end. It’s like telling the 8,000+ Marines who fought in the Chosin Reservoir (some of them as snipers) during the Korean War that they are not Marines because they did not attend a formal Marine Corps Boot Camp (Link here) . They earned their place in history by their actions, not by a diploma on the wall. If a Marine meets the definition as it is stated then he deserves the title... as one of the MARSOC SgtMaj's once said "If you earned the title of "Sniper" from your brothers in combat, that is your certificate"
</div></div>

While I was not a sniper or infantry, people who think they are better and try to be high and mighty when they havent done anything to help, pisses me off as well. I agree with you fully and think it was said very well. I thank you for what you have done to train and protect our brothers in harms way.

Semper Fidelis.
 
#6
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

Ok how can you be a HOG (Hunter of Gunmen) if you never hunted gunmen? It's like taking a ground school course for a pilots license but never flying... you wouldn't call yourself a pilot.... nor would anyone consider you one.

According to Webster's Dictionary a Hunter is: a : a person who hunts game.

If the game that is being hunted is "gunmen" you can't be a hunter of gunmen unless you have actually hunted gunmen. If you have hunted gunmen... GUESS WHAT FOLKS... you are a Hunger of Gunmen... in short a HOG.
 
#7
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stuntman3-1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I figured I would weigh in on this as I am recently returned from active duty and have several friends who are and served with many "snipers" both school trained and not school trained. The current mentality of not being a "sniper" without having been through the school is due to the fact that as a graduate of a formal sniper school the Marine receives the MOS of Scout/Sniper. So by that definition your not a "sniper" until you receive that MOS designation. Kind of like saying a Jewish kid isn't a man until hes had his barmitzvah (I know the spelling is way off). </div></div>

Good point- The BN CO's should exercise their right to assign the MOS via OJT. It's done with all the other O3XX MOS's
smile.gif
Id hate to see a good Marine who was with a STA or SS plt for 4 years not get the title because he was too busy deploying or crossdecking to deploy thus no time for a school because he was too busy killing dudes.
 
#8
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

I think it is more about having a standard and accountability, how else would you know who did what, as if there isn't 10X more USMC Scout Snipers running around then ever served in combat period.

It's why you ask a person who is in a bar telling Sniper Stories what his class number is, same with SEALs, Rangers, etc.

Grandfathering in guys who served pre-school house is pretty much a given. It's a legacy thing. But look at what is written, 8,000 Marines fighting in the Chosen weren't all Snipers even if they did meet your definition by delivering long range precision fire on select targets. By merit of action alone, anyone who aimed, shot and killed somebody meets the definition as long as they weren't standing out in the open.

It's about having something to go by, if a Marine goes to Sniper School, fails out, goes to combat 3 months later, brings a scope and shoots a taliban from a concealed position can he then go home and call himself a Marine Sniper. By your definition, YES, especially if his grunt buddies call him one... even though he failed the course. That is where the difference is, and the standard begins.

The combat part is just another level of separation for some people, and I get it, that is the ultimate test by definition. But not the only one when it comes to specialized skills.
 
#9
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

There was a TL from 5th Force that was an OJT 0321. This guy was locked on and had a ton of experience. When he went to 1st Force he had to go through BRC to meet their standard.

Lowlight is 100% correct.

If you want the title/job you need to follow the proper progression. Otherwise the MOS becomes fragmented and you have people with varying skill and no baseline.
 
#11
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HunterOfGunmen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok how can you be a HOG (Hunter of Gunmen) if you never hunted gunmen? It's like taking a ground school course for a pilots license but never flying... you wouldn't call yourself a pilot.... nor would anyone consider you one.

According to Webster's Dictionary a Hunter is: a : a person who hunts game.

If the game that is being hunted is "gunmen" you can't be a hunter of gunmen unless you have actually hunted gunmen. If you have hunted gunmen... GUESS WHAT FOLKS... you are a Hunger of Gunmen... in short a HOG. </div></div>

There is quite a few guys with the title of a HOG that were in during the 80s and 90s. They never got a chance to pull on a live target. I don't discard their accomplishments for serving during peace time. I recommend you don't ether.

 
#12
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is quite a few guys with the title of a HOG that were in during the 80s and 90s. They never got a chance to pull on a live target. I don't discard their accomplishments for serving during peace time. I recommend you don't ether.</div></div>

Along the same lines there were hundreds of marines who applied the sniper trade in many wars, and lesser engagements prior to the start of the Scout Sniper School in 1977.

Many seem to think they don't deserve the name because they didn't go to "the school", that includes Carlos Hathcock who, by the way, was the NCOIC of the first SS school.

The marines don't have a manoply on this bullshit.

That army is the same way. Take Air Assualt. Air Assualt was developed in SE Asia by infantryman. That's what we did. Post Vietnam they came up with the Air Assualt School.

Soldiers from Vietnam weren't qualified for the Wop Wop title, not because the spent a year practicing Air Assualt in a Live Fire FTX, with pop up shoot back targets, but because they didn't go to school.

It's a crock, a crock based on Ego.
 
#13
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

It's not ego, it's accomplishment.

And the shot is only one small part of the job, sure lots of guys became famous because of the "shot", or "shots" but that doesn't mean they could complete the program. There are plenty of guys who have failed out of the course because of the other skill sets required who could have easily passed the "shooting" part. Being able to shoot a man is not the sole realm of the sniper, it is only part of it and that is why the school is important.

There are hundreds of boys, men, whomever in cities around the world who excel at killing people. That does not make them elite, heck in the 70's & 80s I grew up around men who today sit in prison but easily exceeded the body count of known serial killers of our time. Some sat across the holiday table from me, doesn't mean i would put them on the same level as Marines in combat, yet they killed ruthlessly and efficiently, numbers that would give Dahmer pause.

Dedicated snipers are easily identified, past and present, today we have a standard which says they graduate school to earn the MOS, otherwise, they simply have the satisfaction of knowing they personally excelled at their job as Marines, fighting alongside their brothers in combat. The Title Marine should be enough and is why, Kraig, we as Marines, capitalize the word. To spell it any other way is considered a minor insult to many who earned it.

There is reason the school has a high attrition rate, and equally telling why people who earn the title covet it. Now, if you want to break that membership up into sections, combat, war, peace, past, present, that is for the holders of the title to decide. How they personally chose to honor those within those sections is another personal choice they earned. I can respect's Steve's take on the subject he earned it.

At a time of conflict, going on 11 years straight, it opens up the door for a lot guys. however from 1977, to 2001 there are a lot of squared away Marines who earned the title, the MOS, with very few options to get the combat designation, so their opinions might certainly be different than his. No matter, it is what it is... I would not give the honor graduate of the class of 1994 any less respect than I give Steve, but that is me. His opinion might be different and that is his right. But I also don't think those who entered the service during a time of 11 years of US combat any free pass simply because they whacked a bunch of guys... something like a million plus US Serviceman fought in these current wars, so there was a lot of it. I'm sure several who were not school trained exceeded in putting down the enemy, but that is the job of any Marine in combat, doesn't make them special or even snipers if they zapped someone from a few hundred yards away from a concealed position, even if they did 100 times in a row. No MOS, No Certificate, they were just exceptional Marines doing their job. That is my opinion on it, otherwise it is reducing the accomplishments past, present and future. If it was that easy, everyone who engaged a select target from a concealed position would claim it, and there would be no questioning them.
 
#14
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not ego, it's accomplishment.

At a time of conflict, going on 11 years straight, it opens up the door for a lot guys. however from 1977, to 2001 there are a lot of squared away Marines who earned the title, the MOS, with very few options to get the combat designation, so their opinions might certainly be different than his. No matter, it is what it is... I would not give the honor graduate of the class of 1994 any less respect than I give Steve, but that is me. His opinion might be different and that is his right. But I also don't think those who entered the service during a time of 11 years of US combat any free pass simply because they whacked a bunch of guys... something like a million plus US Serviceman fought in these current wars, so there was a lot of it. I'm sure several who were not school trained exceeded in putting down the enemy, but that is the job of any Marine in combat, doesn't make them special or even snipers if they zapped someone from a few hundred yards away from a concealed position, even if they did 100 times in a row. No MOS, No Certificate, they were just exceptional Marines doing their job. That is my opinion on it, otherwise it is reducing the accomplishments past, present and future. If it was that easy, everyone who engaged a select target from a concealed position would claim it, and there would be no questioning them. </div></div>

I went high & right on the SNCO that night for belittling the accomplishments of those Marines. 2 of the guys are heading to the next school.... so after 3 back to back deployments (2 as TL's) & about 4 dozen dead taliban these Marines will get their shot at the MOS that they have already proven they can do. The Marines who served in peacetime who didn't get find themselves on the 2-way range deserve no less credit than the current guys. They were at the ready... but had no war to fight.
 
#15
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

I can also see a converse side of this, as an MP, we have guys that go to SRT school, and then have the chance to do Phase 2, SRT MO, but not a single one would claim to be Sniper, save for a few that HAVE additionally gone to SS school. Most of them use the title Markssman Observer, or Designated Marksman, or Police Sharpshooter. DM/MO/PSS is one highly different skillset than that of Scout Sniper.
 
#16
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alaskaman 11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HunterOfGunmen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok how can you be a HOG (Hunter of Gunmen) if you never hunted gunmen? It's like taking a ground school course for a pilots license but never flying... you wouldn't call yourself a pilot.... nor would anyone consider you one.

According to Webster's Dictionary a Hunter is: a : a person who hunts game.

If the game that is being hunted is "gunmen" you can't be a hunter of gunmen unless you have actually hunted gunmen. If you have hunted gunmen... GUESS WHAT FOLKS... you are a Hunger of Gunmen... in short a HOG. </div></div>

There is quite a few guys with the title of a HOG that were in during the 80s and 90s. They never got a chance to pull on a live target. I don't discard their accomplishments for serving during peace time. I recommend you don't ether.

</div></div>

all dressed up and nowhere to go.....such was the life of the peace time big green..

i'm with ya on the subject steve. plenty of ojt to go around in the last 10yrs.
 
#17
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

I understand both view points, an long ago(real world) the precursor was a none issue among most, you did your job an moved out. The world we live in now tries to define everything to the 5th decimal point.

I recall that heated thread, were long time friends, chose different sides, and at the end of the day it all went to shit. Took months to get most all back to normal, over what, a title. Some of the best craftsman I know never had any training at all, while some others that are papered, would not even get 2 yds past the L/D w/o leaking.
If one has paper, but never preformed the task, where does that leave them? If a guy was told this is what we want you to learn an by the way it's all OJT, an he completes every task/gig assigned wheres he stand at?
Remember when it's all said an done, everyone is pulling on the same end of the rope.
 
#18
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

OK I'll recant. I've given this topic a bit of thought last night and have a different outlook.

Where I believe I'm mistaken is not seperating "sniper" from "scout sniper". If I'm not mistaken the Marines have a MOS as Scout Sniper that requires a MOS producing school. To get that MOS you have to go to the school, that I can understand.

However I don't believe you need a formal school to be a sniper. Nor do you have to be Marine or Army to be a sniper. The Air Force has snipers in their security police. Coast Guard snd Navy have snipers. LE has snipers. You also have criminal snipers. All have different missions but they are snipers just the same.

I see now that a Marine can be a sniper but not a "scout sniper" without going through the SS school.

So I'll back off my statements for previous post.
 
#19
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not ego, it's accomplishment.</div></div>Exactly.

Napoleon is the father of the moden educated army. He said that we must train soldiers to be irrational because men in a rational army would run in the opposite direction. To manage these 'trained' irrational masses Napoleon created a cadre of men who were to be in charge of rationality: The permanent administrative staff-officer class.

Since Napoleon, military training has been about two things: Making fighters, and checking boxes for career advancement. As a Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine, it's important to know - at any given time - which kind of training you're being subjected to. The first kind teaches you to blindly do what someone else tells you to do. The second teaches you to curry favor from those above you who are like-minded. Both exist to serve the organization, not the individual.

So-called post-modern advanced courses, like SF quals and such, are about identifying leaders and emphasizing teamwork. Courses like BUD/S (especially Hell Week) are not about advanced training at all - they use extreme physical challenges to identify mental strength - it's a search for a personality type, for something that cannot be taught. Real training takes place only afterward, and only to a select few. In my opionion, and from what I have seen, the Tier 1 level is probably the only place that any 'real' technical training of the individual takes place.

The bottom line is that the military thinks in boxes. Doing that keeps its members from asking too many questions of their superiors, which, in turn, preserves a rank structure that is teetering on the brink of ineffectiveness. Start using your common sense and fools above you will attempt to marginalize you. If you're lucky you'll go the way of Pete Blaber. If not, no one will ever know who you are or what you can do.

Note that the ASA identified much the same problem for LE and created their own standards. Like in the military, these standards are rarely used or heeded.
 
#20
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">because men in a rational army would <span style="color: #990000"> call in an airstrike.</span> </div></div>

Fixed that for you.
grin.gif
 
#21
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

I am very grateful and supportive of all who serve regardless of the capacity in which that service is given.

I do however agree with Frank on this. School trained/educated, tested and competency proven through doing is worth a lot. In this case enough to earn the MOS.

The point of training is to prepare an individual for the things that they might face. Can an untrained competent person handle some of the situations they might find themselves in...? Sure. Does that necessarily mean that they have the skill set to handle a slightly different situation...? Maybe not. That makes a huge difference to a leader who is responsible for the outcome of a mission and the resources that they apply to it.

A school trained sniper who has proven himself to have mastered the skills taught to the appropriate competency level is a known quantity. That is the difference in my mind.
 
#22
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HunterOfGunmen</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not ego, it's accomplishment.

At a time of conflict, going on 11 years straight, it opens up the door for a lot guys. however from 1977, to 2001 there are a lot of squared away Marines who earned the title, the MOS, with very few options to get the combat designation, so their opinions might certainly be different than his. No matter, it is what it is... I would not give the honor graduate of the class of 1994 any less respect than I give Steve, but that is me. His opinion might be different and that is his right. But I also don't think those who entered the service during a time of 11 years of US combat any free pass simply because they whacked a bunch of guys... something like a million plus US Serviceman fought in these current wars, so there was a lot of it. I'm sure several who were not school trained exceeded in putting down the enemy, but that is the job of any Marine in combat, doesn't make them special or even snipers if they zapped someone from a few hundred yards away from a concealed position, even if they did 100 times in a row. No MOS, No Certificate, they were just exceptional Marines doing their job. That is my opinion on it, otherwise it is reducing the accomplishments past, present and future. If it was that easy, everyone who engaged a select target from a concealed position would claim it, and there would be no questioning them. </div></div>

I went high & right on the SNCO that night for belittling the accomplishments of those Marines. 2 of the guys are heading to the next school.... so after 3 back to back deployments (2 as TL's) & about 4 dozen dead taliban these Marines will get their shot at the MOS that they have already proven they can do. The Marines who served in peacetime who didn't get find themselves on the 2-way range deserve no less credit than the current guys. They were at the ready... but had no war to fight.
</div></div>

No one here, especially myself are belittling those Marines. They stepped up to the plate and handled buisiness. That being said;

The Scout Sniper School has established over time a list of skill sets that must evaluated by one of his peers, in a.controlled environment. This GARANTEEs that every individual that achievs the MOS and title of Scout Sniper has at one point in time has shown to be profficient in all tasks set before him by the Marine Corps Scout Sniper community in ANY environment. This gives everyone a "warm and fuzzy" that regardless of the environment, enemy, and situation that this individual has shown to be profficient in the skills needed to accomplish the mission. What happens when you call this Marine a Sniper based on the fact that he killed a bad guy, on a mission where it calls for a specific skill needed and expected of a Scout Sniper, and as it turns out, he never encountered this issue on his previous missions, and as it turns out he's not very good at it? You just put this Marines life, and mission in danger because you felt that because he successfully killed bad guys in Iraq.

This war may not call for ALL the skills needed to be an MOS certified Scout Sniper. The next war might though, or atleast some different skills than were required in this one.

The only way that you can insure the across the board profficiency in all skills required to be a Scout Sniper is with a formal training, and evaluation of all or atleast the majority of skulls needed to be a Scout Sniper in "Every Clime and Place". If you dont then you are outing these lives and the mission in danger.

While I was instructing Scout Sniper school I had students that had done the mission of the Scout Sniper in combat and had numerous kills. Some graduated and some didn't.

Are you saying that we should have bypassed the fact that these individuals couldn't stalk or mil a target to save their lives because they killed someone in a combat zone and hand them the MOS and title of Scout Sniper?

If that's the case I have some questions for you.

1. What if that individual never took a shot past 200 yards? Are you going to grant him the MOS when he has never established that he can read wind?

If not, is their a designated range that a target must be engaged to qualify this person as a Sniper?

Does it need to be milled, or will a LR suffice? So its okay to have Snipers that can't stalk, MIL a target, call wind, etc because they killed a few badguys within xxx range?

How many bad guys do they need to kill? At what range? With what weapon system? With what optic? Confirmed? Unconfirmed? Etc, etc.

What if the target was taken with an M16 and iron sights by his spotter at 500 yards? Will he be given the title as well? Does it need to be a bolt rifle? Does it need to be an optic? If so, will an ACOG do, or does it need to be a high power scope?

If the above is the case, then what about an 0311 with an M16 and a Leupold he slapped on it? Should he be given the title Scout Sniper because he picked someone off at xxx range even though he has not shown profficient employment of the other xxxxx # of skills that we determined needed to be mastered before you could be given the MOS of Scout Sniper?

What if that individual has never been on a stalk before? Should we title him sniper because he killed someone in combat? The outcome.of what you suggest would be open to the possiblity of having numerous Snipers in the Marine Corps that may or may not be able to successfully accomplish the mission set before them because they recieved their MOS based in the fact that they killed a bad guys in combat, which.as I'm sure you are well aware of is only one of the many skills that must be mastered.

These are my thoughts on the matter.

So I guess I'm one of the guys Kraig referred to as only Snipers if you have shown profficiency and been evaluated by your peers in ALL skills needed to be well rounded every Clime and Place, without your technology kinda Scout Snipers.

JMHO.

Semper Fi,
Seth
 
#24
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

A Marine buddy explained it all to me a few years back when he came back from afghanistan, he went as a PIG (properly instructed gunman) and was deployed with the HOG's and spent a year with them. The reason he was only a PIG instead of a HOG is because he hadn't been sent to the sniper school. Unfortunately for him, his 5 years were over before there was a spot open for him to go so he spent the last 9 months on the 29 palms range as a range instructor with the pith helmet and all.
hope this helps.
 
#25
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A Marine buddy explained it all to me a few years back when he came back from afghanistan, he went as a PIG (properly instructed gunman) and was deployed with the HOG's and spent a year with them. The reason he was only a PIG instead of a HOG is because he hadn't been sent to the sniper school. Unfortunately for him, his 5 years were over before there was a spot open for him to go so he spent the last 9 months on the 29 palms range as a range instructor with the pith helmet and all.
hope this helps. </div></div>

PIG- Professionally Instructed Gunman
 
#26
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

He hunts "snipes" of course.

The verb "to snipe" originated in the 1770s among soldiers in British India where a hunter skilled enough to kill the elusive snipe was dubbed a "sniper".[2] The term sniper was first attested in 1824 in the sense of the word "sharpshooter".[2]
 
#28
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The name Simo Häyhä keeps popping up in my mind for some reason. </div></div>
How about the kid from the Urals with a POS 91/30, vs a German instructor.
 
#29
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

Studying Simo Häyhä and the "Winter War" gave me the idea of AK NG Eskimo Sniper Teams, and allowed me to sell the program to the powers to be.

Western Alaska was the prefect place and the native hunters were some of the best canidates.
 
#30
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The name Simo Häyhä keeps popping up in my mind for some reason. </div></div>
How about the kid from the Urals with a POS 91/30, vs a German instructor. </div></div>

Finland > Soviets > Nazis

We really should have a Sniper's Hide version of the Deadliest Warrior show on the Hide.

It would be better than the crappy TV show itself.
____________________________________________________
Get this topic back on track now that I think I contributed to a potential derailment..

I had another soldier come up to me one time, and said that since he went through some bullshit class then he had the same MOS as me. I beat the shit out of him. I still don't feel like I did anything wrong. I earned it, and that little bitch didn't.

Same if Steve decked that NCO for opening his cock holster and spewing all that crap all over the place, and I'd be blind, deaf, and dumb after slipping a knife into Steve's hand(
grin.gif
).

My logic is that the MOS belongs to those who hold it, and if they decide that an infantryman, who has done the same work, should have the right to call himself a sniper based on what he has done, then so be it.

As for the numerical MOS designation, I think that is a different issue.
 
#31
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A Marine buddy explained it all to me a few years back when he came back from afghanistan, he went as a PIG (properly instructed gunman) and was deployed with the HOG's and spent a year with them. The reason he was only a PIG instead of a HOG is because he hadn't been sent to the sniper school. Unfortunately for him, his 5 years were over before there was a spot open for him to go so he spent the last 9 months on the 29 palms range as a range instructor with the pith helmet and all.
hope this helps. </div></div>

So this question is for Seth, Lowlight, Steve or any other USMC Sniper. In the above quoted post. His friend deployed with a STA platoon as a PIG, probably saw action and has a few kills behind the gun. He EAS's prior to attending the school so he never got the MOS. When describing his duties overseas would it be proper to say that he operated as a sniper or no?
 
#32
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

Seth: Spot on, there needs to be standards, what works in one shit hole might not work in another thus the reason for having set standards that are enforced and either met or not... Find a pole-
S/F
Steve
 
#33
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So this question is for Seth, Lowlight, Steve or any other USMC Sniper. In the above quoted post. His friend deployed with a STA platoon as a PIG, probably saw action and has a few kills behind the gun. He EAS's prior to attending the school so he never got the MOS. When describing his duties overseas would it be proper to say that he operated as a sniper or no? </div></div>

Good question....I'd say yes, and if someone wanted more info he could simply say he was a TL and never went to school.
 
#34
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

During times of conflict many military found it necessary to set up pocket schools in the area of operation to "battlefield qualify" members because of the difficulty of sending them home for formal training. These courses were very basic but took into account their OJT and allowed the units to qualify them. This was done by the US to include courses during Vietnam, both here and abroad.

It's one thing to point to the past and say, "well what about Bob" or in this case Simo, but honestly the mission has changed and the context of their achievements are different. So while you can look at their legacy, it's not at all the same by any stretch of the imagination. You recognize the legacy but you also have to understand the limitations and the differences, otherwise you continue to relive the past as if has a major bearing on a modern future.

Marine Scout Snipers are not just about the "shot" if that was the only requirement, then ok, anyone who engaged in long range precision fire on select targets from a concealed position qualifies... that means, scope, no scope, ACOG, S&B, doesn't matter, once you determine what qualifies as Long Distance, 500 yards, or more ? whatever, the standard is set and the Title gets earned. But we don't operate like that and haven't' for far too long to try and leap frog beyond to someone who fought a wall of Russian moving online to invade.

The reason we saw the early elevation of Carlos versus someone like Chuck was the very fact of the standards. Setting up the course, they set the standard and moved to make it much more than all about shooting. They recognized the limitations and the need to have the very best possible well rounded Marine and what it would take to get a Marine to that point. Being front and center of that movement elevated his legacy. Chuck on the other hand did his job and moved on, like a lot of people. Doesn't' take away from his legacy individually, but the institution recognized the need to grow and Carlos along with is handlers moved the ball to form the modern school we have today. Hence the difference...

Idolizing the "shot' is the failing. Especially on a modern battlefield, which is why we have a Scout Sniper Course that is as long as it is. It is why they don't work with you if you fail land navigation twice, they move you out. It is why they generally requested Marines of experience and not fresh souls right out of boot camp. (although that has changed) This is where people try to relate to Carlos by talking about the shooting, but miss the bigger picture.

It wasn't the fact he shot a General, it was the Mission overall. Planning it, getting in, moving to position, getting on target and then getting out. If you just secure a build and hit targets of opportunity simply because the Bn Cmdr sent you there, well yes that is the mission, but it is not the same. Doesn't take away from the fact as a Marine Scout Sniper you successfully did your job, but it is just different enough to miss the mark. Saying L/ Cpl Smuckatelli take this M40A3, go here, and shoot anyone you see, is certainly being a Marine "Sniper", but is it enough to qualify you as a Marine Scout Sniper ? Not really, unless our young L/Cpl saw the need, planned the mission, presented it to the SEO, picked the team, moved into position unseen, eliminated a series of threats and moved out without being seen, and returned to plan mission #2, then you can say, he was much closer to the MOS of Scout Sniper.

It is a very fine line, an important one. Doesn't negate the personal accomplishments as Marines in combat, but it also doesn't give you the ability to elevate your position up to the next level. Then what happens is you have the guy who during peace time was let carry the scoped rifle and calls himself "sniper" in the bar because he shot well so the unit commander let him hold the weapon during drills. If you can allow the Marine with the highest body count have it, you can allow him too... after all he was the unit's best shot. It was just recognized very early on, like the 1970;s that it is more than just the shooting, so they created the course to reflect that. You can't just re-write that because a bunch of skilled Marines went to combat, their personal accomplishments are untouched, but the title lays just out of reach.

In these cases, I think the difference would have been for the Chief Scout to set something up to "qualify" them so it could be entered into their SRBs, that would have changed the scope for the next generation. A pocket course in country could have made all the difference to giving these fine Marines the ability to move up. Units did it in the past, only difference here, nobody bothered to do it present. So either that formal training meant something enough not to dilute or it just wasn't' a consideration.
 
#35
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A Marine buddy explained it all to me a few years back when he came back from afghanistan, he went as a PIG (properly instructed gunman) and was deployed with the HOG's and spent a year with them. The reason he was only a PIG instead of a HOG is because he hadn't been sent to the sniper school. Unfortunately for him, his 5 years were over before there was a spot open for him to go so he spent the last 9 months on the 29 palms range as a range instructor with the pith helmet and all.
hope this helps. </div></div>

So this question is for Seth, Lowlight, Steve or any other USMC Sniper. In the above quoted post. His friend deployed with a STA platoon as a PIG, probably saw action and has a few kills behind the gun. He EAS's prior to attending the school so he never got the MOS. When describing his duties overseas would it be proper to say that he operated as a sniper or no? </div></div>

Yes, I would say that he conducted one of the tasks and a few of the skills needed to be a Marine Corps Scout Sniper. That is not to day that he has proven efficient in ALL skills needed to a specific standard and said to be profficient by an Expert in the skill.

In the examples of Zietseff, Sino, Hathcock etc, those are but a few and by no means the norm. If we just handed scopes rifles to anyone and turned them loose with the mindset that they were Snipers, do you think they would ALL perform as the above stated individuals? No they wouldn't. Some will perform the tasks ad "naturals" and some will miserably fail. There is really no way to tell when you initially had those men the rifle and kick em loose. I believe that the majority will NOT have all the skills needed and their will be a large "question" in the minds of the commanders on whether that mission will be successfully accomplished by the men they tasked.

When you set a standard in training, you know that you have indeed installed the skulls needed into those individuals for a successful mission. You are setting you mission and the lives of those individuals up for successes. You KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that those Marines possess the skills needed for any Scout Sniper mission. There will be a learning curve, but they possess what is needed to adapt and apply the skills they were taught.

That in my mind is how you set youself up for a successful mission. By knowing that your Scout Snipers are well trained and profficient in ALL the skills pertinent to their job.
 
#36
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scout Snipers are well trained and profficient in ALL the skills pertinent to their job. </div></div>

Shooting is 1 thing, but it's what the guys do the other 99% of the time that makes them scout snipers.
 
#37
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The name Simo Häyhä keeps popping up in my mind for some reason. </div></div>
How about the kid from the Urals with a POS 91/30, vs a German instructor. </div></div>

That whole sniper v sniper battle has a lot of doubt to it as there is a lack of evidence the german major even existed. One of the thoughts are that it was a product of the propaganda machine.
 
#39
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The name Simo Häyhä keeps popping up in my mind for some reason. </div></div>

There wasn't a school for simo hayha to attend. This is an apples to oranges comparison. It's already been universally agreed that those for whom there was not a school in existence did not require a school to earn the title. It's a different situation.

also as LL said above, the operational requirements and standards were VERY different then and considerably less complex.
 
#40
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That whole sniper v sniper battle has a lot of doubt to it as there is a lack of evidence the german major even existed. One of the thoughts are that it was a product of the propaganda machine. </div></div>
The flip side is, if your side lost, would you not try to instill doubt about your top man ever existing or being in the same A/O?
 
#41
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That whole sniper v sniper battle has a lot of doubt to it as there is a lack of evidence the german major even existed. One of the thoughts are that it was a product of the propaganda machine. </div></div>
The flip side is, if your side lost, would you not try to instill doubt about your top man ever existing or being in the same A/O? </div></div>

Perhaps, but there were no records at all found to support his existence and no one would vouch for his existence. That makes it pretty questionable.
 
#43
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

Some pigs that are around long enough, and for whatever reason never get the chance to go to school, who have walked the walk are treated like hogs although they can't go officially by the title. The title of 0317 to me is a way for the bean counters to keep everything tidy in their computer system rosters. If a platoon knows a guy can fulfill the critical requirements of the missions they are assigned, then title or no title the Marine will be given responsibility equivalent to Marines certified for the same job even though the former Marine hasn't been certified by division. To me people get too caught up in titles. There are Marines who get pushed through scout sniper school these days that shouldn't have made it and there are guys that never got the chance to go to school that would have made it. At the end of the day all the guys in a SSP are Marines given a task to ultimately provide safety to innocent people. It's good that there is a standard to qualify who can fulfill the task of being a scout sniper but it's not the end all be all to determining who can really get the job done. What I'm trying to say is a SS platoon will know who can actually fulfill the role of scout sniper and who can't regardless of what it says in the Marine's training jacket.
 
#44
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

Mission_fail; that's kind of what I'm saying, as a company commander I want the best guy for the mission. I don't really care whether he has the patch or mos.

That's why I'm glad the amry doesn't do the sniper mos bit, and hope they never come up with badges or tabs.

Most of the task I see in a scout sniper, except for the marksmanship portion, are "common skills" for an infantryman.

 
#45
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mission_fail; that's kind of what I'm saying, as a company commander I want the best guy for the mission. I don't really care whether he has the patch or mos.

That's why I'm glad the amry doesn't do the sniper mos bit, and hope they never come up with badges or tabs.

Most of the task I see in a scout sniper, except for the marksmanship portion, are "common skills" for an infantryman.

</div></div>

Ill agree with Kraig on this one, The Marines have brought this onto its self. With the whole Slug/Pig/Hog thing. Where is the line? There is none. The Army its your a 11B/18/13/ whatever. You might have a B4 in your file, but no one will know other then you telling them. Sounds like for this one thing, Marines should look to its bigger cousin.
 
#46
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alaskaman 11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mission_fail; that's kind of what I'm saying, as a company commander I want the best guy for the mission. I don't really care whether he has the patch or mos.

That's why I'm glad the amry doesn't do the sniper mos bit, and hope they never come up with badges or tabs.

<span style="font-weight: bold">[/b]Most of the task I see in a scout sniper, except for the marksmanship portion, are "common skills" for an infantryman.</span>

</div></div>

Ill agree with Kraig on this one, The Marines have brought this onto its self. With the whole Slug/Pig/Hog thing. Where is the line? There is none. The Army its your a 11B/18/13/ whatever. You might have a B4 in your file, but no one will know other then you telling them. <span style="font-weight: bold">Sounds like for this one thing, Marines should look to its bigger cousin.</span> </div></div>

Um....................NO!
 
#47
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Most of the task I see in a scout sniper, except for the marksmanship portion, are "common skills" for an infantryman.

</div></div>

That's so far from the truth I'm not sure where to start.

1.) Detailed mission planning (everyone in a SSP needs to be able to support this not just the squad leader or Plt. Sgt. including the ability to author SOPs)
2.) Military field sketch
3.) Ability to direct fires. CAS, CIFS, Arty, Mortars
4.) MSIDS
5.) Hide construction
6.) SERE
7.) Comm (other than vhf)

Just to name a few of the skills that are not common in the infantry.
 
#48
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

When I was in there was no Pig / Hog thing happening.. it was straight up Headhunter and nothing else.

The Hogs tooth I got came in the form of a ceramic skull with the bullet inserted into the head. Plus the T Shirt, LOL, I don't think it was called the hogs tooth then either... nobody carried anything, our dress code was lax enough to constantly get us in trouble on the BN level.

As to the above and Kraig's observations... A 12 week school is not covering "basic" infantry skills, that was only an 8 week school in the USMC. When I went to Korea and attended a portion of the 2nd ID school at Casey the Army equivalent was only 3 weeks, of which our platoon got to attend 1/2 of it for cross training. So clearly there are gross differences.
 
#49
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Most of the task I see in a scout sniper, except for the marksmanship portion, are "common skills" for an infantryman.

</div></div>

That's so far from the truth I'm not sure where to start.

1.) Detailed mission planning (everyone in a SSP needs to be able to support this not just the squad leader or Plt. Sgt. including the ability to author SOPs)
2.) Military field sketch
3.) Ability to direct fires. CAS, CIFS, Arty, Mortars
4.) MSIDS
5.) Hide construction
6.) SERE
7.) Comm (other than vhf)

Just to name a few of the skills that are not common in the infantry. </div></div>

Let's also add
8.) Stalking
9.) Setup of an FFP
10.) Collection and reporting of information (other than a SALUTE report)
11.) Small Unit Tactics (we're not talking about infantry minset SOP's either)
12.) Scout Sniper Employment

Maybe in YOUR Army everyone is an expert in ALL the above stated skills, but how many people are in YOUR Army? Or is this an ................."imaginary" Army and your the only member? Hmmmmmmmm
 
#50
Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

Infantry common skills:

Cover, concealment and camouflage
Fighting Positions
Movement
Observation
Nuclear, Biological, and Cemical Warare
Combat Intelligence and Counterintelligence
Communications
First Aid and Personal Hygiene
Mines
Ddmolitions
Obstractis
Urban Aras
Tracking Survival, Evasion and Escape
Weapons and Fire Control
Field Expedient Antiarmor
Range Cards

And of course Planning, Op and Warning orders
 
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