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Fieldcraft What Makes a Sniper

Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just fyi but as a military trained sniper i will tell you that when it comes to pulling the trigger it doesnt matter if it is 100 yards or 1200 yards your training and your skills demand that you make first round impacts on targets, every target. a miss is unexceptable, does it happen yes but the point is to place the first round on target every...</div></div>I think I know what you are saying, but militaries don't require first-round hits on 1000 yard targets, and at many distances it is the miss that is the rule with the follow-up shot being the standard. Today the military 'point' is not any more to place the first round on target <span style="font-style: italic">every</span> time. </div></div>

neither myself or a spotter next to me has even been told to fire a shot to see where it goes then get the next one on , or that it is exceptable to miss any shot. unless the school has changed since i have been there it is always one shot one kill. sometimes we miss but i think if you do the math its a very snmall percentage of the time and
never on purpose. </div></div>

Nobody is saying "miss on purpose." We are simply stating a miss that doesn't kill an innocent is better than a miss that does. Also, as long as there are shooters, there will be misses. The only ones that never miss are those that don't pull triggers.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...neither myself or a spotter next to me has even been told to fire a shot to see where it goes then get the next one on, or that it is exceptable to miss any shot. unless the school has changed since i have been there it is always one shot one kill. sometimes we miss but i think if you do the math its a very snmall percentage of the time and never on purpose. </div></div>I have done the math. We don't miss a lot at the closer ranges but we miss more and more the farther out it gets. No worries, though: Everyone does. If they made it too hard to graduate there would be no graduates.

But I didn't say that school snipers are taught to intentionally miss the target; that would be silly.

Our military does an acceptable job of teaching the 'how' but it doesn't do a good job of teaching the 'why'. Which is why, in better systems, it is acceptable to miss provided that you understand why you missed and apply a proper and timely correction.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...neither myself or a spotter next to me has even been told to fire a shot to see where it goes then get the next one on, or that it is exceptable to miss any shot. unless the school has changed since i have been there it is always one shot one kill. sometimes we miss but i think if you do the math its a very snmall percentage of the time and never on purpose. </div></div>I have done the math. We don't miss a lot at the closer ranges but we miss more and more the farther out it gets. No worries, though: Everyone does. If they made it too hard to graduate there would be no graduates.

But I didn't say that school snipers are taught to intentionally miss the target; that would be silly. Our military does an acceptable job of teaching the 'how' but it doesn't do a good job of teaching the 'why'. Which is why, in better systems, it is acceptable to miss
provided that you understand why you missed and apply a proper and timely correction. </div></div>

You mean "exceptional" job? That would be better than "acceptable" right? I want to give the military a little more credit
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

As a matter of fact, KraigWY mentioned "counter-sniper" in one of his posts when referring to LE. That, is in fact, why the LE teams were formed. One of the specific incidents was the Whitman shooting in TX. The title itself is self explanatory. Could they be called "sniper, sharpshooter, or DM?" Why not? Most basic courses are called "Counter-sniper" courses.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

Like I've said before, I wasn't looking for how to get the Sniper title. I can order a certificate or BS Sniper Tab all day long. I was just wondering what the general consensus was on what makes a sniper. Thanks all for the info, as I now have a better understanding of the very wide definition and debate of what people consider snipers.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

from the Merriam-Webster dictionary,

snipe : to shoot at exposed individuals ( as of an enemy's forces ) from a usually concealed pint of vantage.

Anyone who does this is in fact a "sniper". In order to answer the Question at hand, as we so often do, we need a more specific question.

What makes a "military sniper"... well that depends on the military in question.

What makes a "LE sniper"... again depends on what agency.

But a "sniper" is simply someone who shoots at people, with a rifle, in an way that seperates them from conventional combatants, generalyy the seperation is concealment of final firing position, either through stealth or distance.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

I am not from a military background but I have attended a "basic LE sniper school" it was a great experience for me. I have a lot of respect for the military snipers out there. As for training hands down the military takes it. But I think in the end the goal is somewhat the same.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

Finding this thread is like passing a bad car-wreck; I knew I shouldn't but I had to look.

Carry on.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

Hasn't the OP's question been answered ENOUGH?
1228-rams-chargers-game-aired-la-beat_dead_horse.jpg
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RebelYell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a short summary of some of the qualities of a good sniper:
- Patience
- Independence
- Hunting experience
- Cleverness
- Ability to adapt to different situations
- <span style="font-weight: bold">Make decisions on his own</span>
- Keen observation skills
- Field craft skills and knowing how to use all types of camouflage effectively
- Stealth
- Awareness
- Knowledge of ballistics
- Marksmanship
- <span style="font-weight: bold">Ability to keep learning</span>
- <span style="font-weight: bold">Discipline</span>
- Meticulous preparation
- Attention to detail
- Understanding his enemy
- Exploiting his enemies weaknesses
- Knowing when to shoot and when not too.
- Record and data keeping skills
- Evasion skills
- Stay still for long hours
- and yes I googled this </div></div>

Those few things are gonna leave 99% of these guys out. </div></div>

You forgot one HUGE thing.

"The piece of paper".

That's what all the military snipers have said since I've been here.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

Well, yes, it keeps going. Sorry I contributed. I am tapping out......can't take it anymore and wondering what the POINT is?
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

after the first few post i think the point is to argue about stuff most people dont have any idea about. im out im just gonna watch this battle from a distance and be glad im no longer a part of it.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

I am surprised no one has mentioned the marines definition of the highest level

H hunter
O of
G gunmen

from my best understanding: this is a person that through training and experience has the highest qualifications to take on an enemy shooter at any practical distance and conditions and train/lead/mentor others to do the same, there is no mention of a requirement that a HOG has shot a person although lately most have
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

Point to ponder:

One GI went to (any branch) sniper school. He's task to overwatch a position where bandits use to fire mortors, RPDs, what ever. He's a sniper.

The next GI is a SDM (any branch) SDM school. He's task to overwatch a position where bandits use to fire mortors, RPDs, what ever. He doesn't get to be a sniper.

To take something I'm more familiar with. In SE Asia one of the best tactics of army snipers was stay behind operations where a unit was re-supplied. (GIs like to throw away shit). Bandits ram sack these supply points to find ham and lima beans or other discarded items. So a sniper would be left behind with a Starlight Scope on a M16a1. Was quite effective. We call him a sniper.

Now there was a shortage of school trained snipers in Vietnam, So Capt Jones knows private smith is an excellent marksman, and quite experienced in jungle warfare. The Capt tells Smith to mount a Starlight Scope on his M16a1 and provide stay a be hind operation on the supply point. Smith is quite effective, but he doesn't get to be a Sniper cause he never went to school.

As far as calling for Arty or Air support, any good soldier should know that. As for scouting/recon, any good 11B should be able to do that.

It's my opinion that if one does sniper operations and does them effectively, he's a sniper, regardless whether he went to sniper school or SDM, or is just a plain good soldier who can shoot.

Another example is Air Assualt. We did air assualt operations all the time in SE Asia, pretty much all we did. After a year of air assualt operations we arn't qualified because we didnt attend air assualt school and don't have the badge. I refused to let them send me to Air Assualt school just for that reason.

It aint badges or tabs, its what you do. Our egos wont let us reconize one because he didnt go to the same school we did. Thats bullshit.

And you don't have to have a multi thousand dollar rifle and fancy glass to be a sniper. Ask Simo Hayha.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you don't have to have a multi thousand dollar rifle and fancy glass to be a sniper.</div></div>You mean I'm doing it all wrong?!!
laugh.gif
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now there was a shortage of school trained snipers in Vietnam, So Capt Jones knows private smith is an excellent marksman, and quite experienced in jungle warfare. The Capt tells Smith to mount a Starlight Scope on his M16a1 and provide stay a be hind operation on the supply point. Smith is quite effective, but he doesn't get to be a Sniper cause he never went to school.</div></div>

That should not even be a issue for him, unless he has a ego problem.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As far as calling for Arty or Air support, any good soldier should know that. As for scouting/recon, any good 11B should be able to do that.</div></div>
Should, is defiantly correct, but it needs to be used with, correctly.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's my opinion that if one does sniper operations and does them effectively, he's a sniper, regardless whether he went to sniper school or SDM, or is just a plain good soldier who can shoot.</div></div>
Ain't the way it is, or ever will be, even if your time was with a traveling band, or road show.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Point to ponder:

One GI went to (any branch) sniper school. He's task to overwatch a position where bandits use to fire mortors, RPDs, what ever. He's a sniper.

The next GI is a SDM (any branch) SDM school. He's task to overwatch a position where bandits use to fire mortors, RPDs, what ever. He doesn't get to be a sniper.

To take something I'm more familiar with. In SE Asia one of the best tactics of army snipers was stay behind operations where a unit was re-supplied. (GIs like to throw away shit). Bandits ram sack these supply points to find ham and lima beans or other discarded items. So a sniper would be left behind with a Starlight Scope on a M16a1. Was quite effective. We call him a sniper.

Now there was a shortage of school trained snipers in Vietnam, So Capt Jones knows private smith is an excellent marksman, and quite experienced in jungle warfare. The Capt tells Smith to mount a Starlight Scope on his M16a1 and provide stay a be hind operation on the supply point. Smith is quite effective, but he doesn't get to be a Sniper cause he never went to school.

As far as calling for Arty or Air support, any good soldier should know that. As for scouting/recon, any good 11B should be able to do that.

It's my opinion that if one does sniper operations and does them effectively, he's a sniper, regardless whether he went to sniper school or SDM, or is just a plain good soldier who can shoot.

Another example is Air Assualt. We did air assualt operations all the time in SE Asia, pretty much all we did. After a year of air assualt operations we arn't qualified because we didnt attend air assualt school and don't have the badge. I refused to let them send me to Air Assualt school just for that reason.

It aint badges or tabs, its what you do. Our egos wont let us reconize one because he didnt go to the same school we did. Thats bullshit.

And you don't have to have a multi thousand dollar rifle and fancy glass to be a sniper. Ask Simo Hayha.




</div></div>

there have been plenty of instances where PIGS have filled the billet during combat operations and peacetime when there where no school slots open or no time to get them to a school before deployment. they may have even had ck's during that time. they are not yet a "school trained sniper" but they are filling the billet and getting shit done. it happens and after that most would consider them a "sniper" in my opinion...my .02
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PSL1078</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Killswitch: What do you mean by "PIGS?" </div></div>

it's what you are if you are in a STA platoon and have not completed the USMC S/S basic coarse.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

Professionally Instructed Gunman
as opposed to
Hunter Of Gunmen, which you become after school.
There's a story behind it, look up the Hog's tooth.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

When I was a guest LE student at 8541 school ( Not a graduate as LE can not gradtiuate 8541 school, but man they taught me alot) one of the guys called me a PIG and I guess my blood boiled out top of my head holding in reaction, until everyone laughed and told me what it meant.

LE basic sniper school is not equal to any of the US Military schools

We produce guys who can hot very small targets ate under 300 yards. Stalking skills are seldom close to military standard ( I know I was beat up goop for how bad my stalking was by the HOG Instructors) and land nav just plain sucks.

This is based on a few decades of service, being taught and teaching LE Students. Hard to get departments to give us two weeks for training let alone four months.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

you just read john plasters book, mount a bsa mildot, confuse yerself thoroughly with coriolis and spindrift, paint yer stik flektard and shazam....yer a sniper.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

It's not the number of lives he or she takes it's the number that he or she saves. The next sniper you meet asked them the number of lives they have saved and watch their face.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not the number of lives he or she takes it's the number that he or she saves.</div></div>

That assuming there is no such thing as a "crimial sniper",

Bad assumption in my opinion.

In Law Enforcement they are called "Counter-Snipers", why are they called that if there are no criminal snipers?
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VAJayJayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the internet </div></div>

Modern Warfare 3
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not the number of lives he or she takes it's the number that he or she saves.</div></div>

That assuming there is no such thing as a "crimial sniper",

Bad assumption in my opinion.

In Law Enforcement they are called "Counter-Snipers", why are they called that if there are no criminal snipers? </div></div>

Because, it makes them sound less threatening when some cracked-ass defense attorney is asking for their heads.

Snipers are often assumed to "seek and destroy" - aka offensive. A counter-sniper sounds defensive.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

Anyone with a scoped rifle, bow, or sling shot.

Freaking ridiculous thread. Who said this should be a "sticky"?
I'm under the opinion it needs to be deleted!

You want to know what it takes?

Join the military
Meet all of the physical, and mental standards
Go to the accredited school......and pass.

By then you'll be able to answer your own question. If your unable to accomplish or undergo the above stated tasks, then just concentrate on being a profficient marksman/Hunter or whatever, and call it good.

JMO
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Freaking ridiculous thread. Who said this should be a "sticky"?
I'm under the opinion it needs to be deleted!
</div></div>

I did, and it should come with a caption that reads, "Hey new members! This topic has already been done before! Put this shit to bed already!" Just because I say "sticky", doesn't mean I think it's a good sticky. More like required reading on what not to say.

I wouldn't weep if this topic was mysteriously gone one day, so don't think I'm being sentimental about this crap.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slafav</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is it that makes a "Sniper" just that? The easiest answer would be the military school, but is that really it? What moves someone from a, "hobbiest" or, "marksman" to the realm of a sniper? Unfortunately I am unable to attend the actually sniper school (Officer Track), so will I never achieve the level of a sniper? If you feel like breaking out the pop corn and opening fire, feel free to delete the thread.
grin.gif
</div></div>God.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

True story. I believe in most cases, this job chooses who will and who won't.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

If your calling yourself a sniper you probably aren't one. If a group of highly trained peers calls you a sniper, you probably are one.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

bit of an fng here but a sniper is mil, the guys who shoots paper just practices the art. you may be just as good as them but will never have the title as a true sniper!
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atirador</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raptor99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say your a "Sniper" when you graduate from a military school with the certificate that says you are. Then you become a "Real" sniper when you put down another human in combat.

Does that make you a better shot than someone on here?? Probably not. I am sure that there are many better marksman on here that shoot more than most snipers in the military do.

I have shot against USMC snipers and Army snipers in comps, beat most of them, but I wouldn't want to have them in the bush hunting me because thats where "Real" snipers
are. Just my thoughts on it. </div></div>

You made some good points. Not every marksman is a sniper, but every sniper is a marksman. Fieldcraft, as well as other characteristics, are what set the sniper apart from the competition shooter.</div></div>

Agreed. Snipers are definitely good marksmen, but there are so many other qualities that make a sniper a sniper. From what I've seen, heard, read, and watched, I know that snipers are extremely smart and adaptable. They also have a S*@T load of other tasks like reconnaissance and observation that one wouldn't normally associate with "sniper." Yes, they hunt people, but they also are tasked with many other objectives than to simply kill.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slafav</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm fighting for a SEOC slot already. I was just curious what the general consensus was on who is a sniper and who isn't. I'm not concerned with a tab or title, but with proficient skills. It's just a matter of where someone can learn those skills if they don't have the opportunity to go to sniper school. </div></div>

I'm not taking the time to read the rest of these posts, so if what I am about to say is stated further down, disregard.

You mentioned in your first post wanting to know if you'll ever be able to be considered a sniper, despite being unable to attend the course. Then you make the above statement. This leaves me a bit concerned that your intentions and focus are not where they should be. First, as an SEO, your job is to assist the snipers in advising proper employment to to the commander. In other words, you are in essence, their voice to the commander to ensure they aren't split up into line platoons acting as DM's. Sniper Employment Officer- it is what it sounds.

My concern is you seem to be heavily focused on areas of concern which should be the purview of the sniper section leader / PSG. You need to understand that it is not the SEO's job to know how to shoot or how to be a sniper, only how to employ them. Any time, materials and assets you use up, chasing a pipe dream that by your own career choice is not attainable, are all valuable things you are taking away from the snipers themselves.

In military terms, you are an officer- you will never be a sniper; if that is what you wanted to be, you should have made the choice to go the route of those who <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">DO</span></span> instead of those who "LEAD". So rather than focusing on what it "takes" to be a "sniper" as far as skill-set outside of the formal course, focus on understanding the mission set and what they need you to advocate for them to be successful. The last thing they need is you coming along and fucking up their training plan in an attempt to gain training or experience which serves no one. Your better bet would be to simply ask if they mind if you observe their training and ask questions about employment along the way. The idea is to get a better understand on proper utilization, not proper operation.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FLGator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Page 3 and still going time for the beer and popcorn..... </div></div>

Pretty much my thoughts. I love this site because there are some great reloaders and shooters here, but this bullshit about "snipers" is always messed up, pitting the video gamers against the real shooters.

Being a warrior is about mindset, not actions. The difference plays out in actions, but actions are the manifestation of the mindset, not the other way around.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> as an SEO, your job is to assist the snipers in advising proper employment to the commander……… it is not the SEO's job to know how to shoot or how to be a sniper, only how to employ them. Any time, materials and assets you use up,………………… The last thing they need is you coming along and fucking up their training plan in an attempt to gain training or experience which serves no one.</div></div>

That is total bull shit. You want a guy running airborne school who never attended? You want an EOD OIC who knows nothing about EOD.

Son, you’re all wet, the best way for an officer to learn the capabilities of a sniper is to attend sniper school. It’s not a waste of training assets for an SEO to go through sniper school.

To the contrary.

The Honor Grad in the class I went through was a Captain from the Infantry Center. His goal was to write a paper for SEOs, to do that he needed to know snipers, to do that he figured he needed to go to sniper school. The cadre of the AMU (most of who were snipers from Vietnam) totally agreed. It gave them (the cadre) a chance to get in their input.

I was an E7 when I went, and attended OCS afterword. Because I was an officer it was a lot easier to sell a sniper program to the Alaska National Guard. (long before the present Benning School and the Guard's School at Robinson).

I sure as hell wouldn’t have been able to sell a program if I didn’t know what I was talking about, where better to learn then sniper school.

As a commander I sure as hell wouldn’t appoint someone who didn’t understand sniping, in charge of a sniper program.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> your job is to assist the snipers in advising proper employment to the commander</div></div>

Just how are you suppose to do that if you don’t know what a sniper is capable of?
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> as an SEO, your job is to assist the snipers in advising proper employment to the commander……… it is not the SEO's job to know how to shoot or how to be a sniper, only how to employ them. Any time, materials and assets you use up,………………… The last thing they need is you coming along and fucking up their training plan in an attempt to gain training or experience which serves no one.</div></div>

That is total bull shit. You want a guy running airborne school who never attended? You want an EOD OIC who knows nothing about EOD.

Son, you’re all wet, the best way for an officer to learn the capabilities of a sniper is to attend sniper school. It’s not a waste of training assets for an SEO to go through sniper school.

To the contrary.

The Honor Grad in the class I went through was a Captain from the Infantry Center. His goal was to write a paper for SEOs, to do that he needed to know snipers, to do that he figured he needed to go to sniper school. The cadre of the AMU (most of who were snipers from Vietnam) totally agreed. It gave them (the cadre) a chance to get in their input.

I was an E7 when I went, and attended OCS afterword. Because I was an officer it was a lot easier to sell a sniper program to the Alaska National Guard. (long before the present Benning School and the Guard's School at Robinson).

I sure as hell wouldn’t have been able to sell a program if I didn’t know what I was talking about, where better to learn then sniper school.

As a commander I sure as hell wouldn’t appoint someone who didn’t understand sniping, in charge of a sniper program.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> your job is to assist the snipers in advising proper employment to the commander</div></div>

Just how are you suppose to do that if you don’t know what a sniper is capable of?

</div></div>


I'm not all wet- you're mis-reading what I'm saying. First and foremost, the SEO is not an instructor as you mention for airborne school- instructing is not his job. His job is to understand the proper utilization; that does not require knowing the intricacies of a sniper's job. Only requires how to best apply them as a force multiplier.

I don't really even understand how an OIC of Airborne school or an EOD OIC relates to an SEO. An SEO is NOT supposed to be a sniper section OIC. He does not run the sniper section as a PL runs his platoon- he does not drive the training. He is nothing more than an officer trained in correct employment of snipers. If he makes it his business to be a sort of SS OIC, chances are all he'll do is fuck shit up since that is not his primary duty and cannot devote the required time.

The problem with the way you are reading my reply is you are seeing it in terms of me saying he should not be allowed to go to sniper school. I'm not making that argument... that is irrelevant since the fact is that as an officer, in today's schools, he isn't allowed to attend. My argument is, if he decides he needs to be involved in the training to the same levels as the snipers themselves- at the unit... he is taking assets, materials and time away from the men who will actually be doing the job for the sole purpose of filling personal desires.

Now, moving along from that- does one need to be a trained sniper to understand what a sniper is capable of? No, they do not. They can get this understanding by simply observing training and asking questions. That would be like saying an Air Ops NCO must also be a pilot to understand how to correctly make use of air assets. Or that an infantryman or FO must be a trained artilleryman to be able to make proper use of artillery.

The SEO does not need to know how to properly employ a ghillie and stalk, call wind, call corrections, make dope charts. All they need to know is how to employ snipers, not how to be a sniper. Now if they have that experience, good for them- it certainly won't hurt. But it is not necessary, certainly not at the cost of training for the men who will actually be conducting the missions.

Again, let me make this totally clear- No where did I say officers should not be permitted to attend sniper school itself. Only that sucking up assets that should be utilized by the snipers themselves during unit training is self-serving and irresponsible. Their knowledge requirement can be fulfilled by observing and asking questions.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> as an SEO, your job is to assist the snipers in advising proper employment to the commander……… it is not the SEO's job to know how to shoot or how to be a sniper, only how to employ them. Any time, materials and assets you use up,………………… The last thing they need is you coming along and fucking up their training plan in an attempt to gain training or experience which serves no one.</div></div>

That is total bull shit. You want a guy running airborne school who never attended? You want an EOD OIC who knows nothing about EOD.

Son, you’re all wet, the best way for an officer to learn the capabilities of a sniper is to attend sniper school. It’s not a waste of training assets for an SEO to go through sniper school.

To the contrary.

The Honor Grad in the class I went through was a Captain from the Infantry Center. His goal was to write a paper for SEOs, to do that he needed to know snipers, to do that he figured he needed to go to sniper school. The cadre of the AMU (most of who were snipers from Vietnam) totally agreed. It gave them (the cadre) a chance to get in their input.

I was an E7 when I went, and attended OCS afterword. Because I was an officer it was a lot easier to sell a sniper program to the Alaska National Guard. (long before the present Benning School and the Guard's School at Robinson).

I sure as hell wouldn’t have been able to sell a program if I didn’t know what I was talking about, where better to learn then sniper school.

As a commander I sure as hell wouldn’t appoint someone who didn’t understand sniping, in charge of a sniper program.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> your job is to assist the snipers in advising proper employment to the commander</div></div>

Just how are you suppose to do that if you don’t know what a sniper is capable of?

</div></div>


I'm not all wet- you're mis-reading what I'm saying. First and foremost, the SEO is not an instructor as you mention for airborne school- instructing is not his job. His job is to understand the proper utilization; that does not require knowing the intricacies of a sniper's job. Only requires how to best apply them as a force multiplier.

I don't really even understand how an OIC of Airborne school or an EOD OIC relates to an SEO. An SEO is NOT supposed to be a sniper section OIC. He does not run the sniper section as a PL runs his platoon- he does not drive the training. He is nothing more than an officer trained in correct employment of snipers. If he makes it his business to be a sort of SS OIC, chances are all he'll do is fuck shit up since that is not his primary duty and cannot devote the required time.

The problem with the way you are reading my reply is you are seeing it in terms of me saying he should not be allowed to go to sniper school. I'm not making that argument... that is irrelevant since the fact is that as an officer, in today's schools, he isn't allowed to attend. My argument is, if he decides he needs to be involved in the training to the same levels as the snipers themselves- at the unit... he is taking assets, materials and time away from the men who will actually be doing the job for the sole purpose of filling personal desires.

Now, moving along from that- does one need to be a trained sniper to understand what a sniper is capable of? No, they do not. They can get this understanding by simply observing training and asking questions. That would be like saying an Air Ops NCO must also be a pilot to understand how to correctly make use of air assets. Or that an infantryman or FO must be a trained artilleryman to be able to make proper use of artillery.

The SEO does not need to know how to properly employ a ghillie and stalk, call wind, call corrections, make dope charts. All they need to know is how to employ snipers, not how to be a sniper. Now if they have that experience, good for them- it certainly won't hurt. But it is not necessary, certainly not at the cost of training for the men who will actually be conducting the missions.

Again, let me make this totally clear- No where did I say officers should not be permitted to attend sniper school itself. Only that sucking up assets that should be utilized by the snipers themselves during unit training is self-serving and irresponsible. Their knowledge requirement can be fulfilled by observing and asking questions.

</div></div>

Well put. I agree, an SEO in my experience does not NEED to be a Sniper to understand how to properly employ them. I have known a few officers that have attended and passed scout sniper school. In my experience it has a way of validating there participation in the training of his or the Snipers in his section, which, is definately not his job or purpose. It is great if said officer attends the sniper training and can still hold true to was his purpose is as an SEO, and not get his paws into the middle of his guys training.

In my mind, sending an officer to scout sniper school is taking away a quota from a student who will actually use those skills learned for real and as a primary mission skull set. Not for bragging rights and a feather in his cap. In all honesty, an SEO is required (in the Marine Corps) to be an Intelligence Officer, and attend the SEO course in Quantico, from there he may only actually be an SEO in a platoon for 1.5 years tops, and that's along time. I would much rather see a qualified Marine attend this course than an officer who's looking go to a course in which he will never use 98% of the skills learned. Send him to the 2 week SEO course and if he wants to learn the individual skill set, he can ask the Marine that just graduated the Sniper School thanks to the officer not snagging his quota.

JMTC

Funny thing is, I've seen quite a few Scout Sniper Platoon Sgt's that were not Snipers themselves. How do you justify having an officer that is a qualified sniper and a Ply. Sgt. That is not? After graduating that officer will NEVER;

Wear a ghillie
Wear cammi paint
Land Nav
Shoot an M40
Adjust his scope
Shoot UKD or KD with an M40
Mil a target
Call for Fire
Mantrack
Etc, etc.

Lot of skills learned that will NEVER be used. Seems like a waste to me. Especially when its at the cost of someone attending that will use those skills as a primary job. The majority of what that SEO will be required to knoe will be located in the Scout Sniper Employment chapter of the HOG Book.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

Hold on a minute: Lets skip snipers for a minute.

A infantry officer better know how to:

Wear cammi paint
Land Nav
Mil or range a target
Call for Fire
Mantrack
Etc, etc.

And he better know the capabilities and how to fire any weapon in his paltoon and any that supports his paltoon.

I don't know about the marines but all this is covered in FM 21-75 "Individual Soldier and Patroling.
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hold on a minute: Lets skip snipers for a minute.

A infantry officer better know how to:

Wear cammi paint
Land Nav
Mil or range a target
Call for Fire
Mantrack
Etc, etc.

And he better know the capabilities and how to fire any weapon in his paltoon and any that supports his paltoon.

I don't know about the marines but all this is covered in FM 21-75 "Individual Soldier and Patroling.

</div></div>

What an officer should know and does know seems to be moving in separate directions these days
 
Re: What Makes a Sniper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> as an SEO, your job is to assist the snipers in advising proper employment to the commander……… it is not the SEO's job to know how to shoot or how to be a sniper, only how to employ them. Any time, materials and assets you use up,………………… The last thing they need is you coming along and fucking up their training plan in an attempt to gain training or experience which serves no one.</div></div>

That is total bull shit. You want a guy running airborne school who never attended? You want an EOD OIC who knows nothing about EOD.

Son, you’re all wet, the best way for an officer to learn the capabilities of a sniper is to attend sniper school. It’s not a waste of training assets for an SEO to go through sniper school.

To the contrary.

The Honor Grad in the class I went through was a Captain from the Infantry Center. His goal was to write a paper for SEOs, to do that he needed to know snipers, to do that he figured he needed to go to sniper school. The cadre of the AMU (most of who were snipers from Vietnam) totally agreed. It gave them (the cadre) a chance to get in their input.

I was an E7 when I went, and attended OCS afterword. Because I was an officer it was a lot easier to sell a sniper program to the Alaska National Guard. (long before the present Benning School and the Guard's School at Robinson).

I sure as hell wouldn’t have been able to sell a program if I didn’t know what I was talking about, where better to learn then sniper school.

As a commander I sure as hell wouldn’t appoint someone who didn’t understand sniping, in charge of a sniper program.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> your job is to assist the snipers in advising proper employment to the commander</div></div>

Just how are you suppose to do that if you don’t know what a sniper is capable of?

</div></div>


I'm not all wet- you're mis-reading what I'm saying. First and foremost, the SEO is not an instructor as you mention for airborne school- instructing is not his job. His job is to understand the proper utilization; that does not require knowing the intricacies of a sniper's job. Only requires how to best apply them as a force multiplier.

I don't really even understand how an OIC of Airborne school or an EOD OIC relates to an SEO. An SEO is NOT supposed to be a sniper section OIC. He does not run the sniper section as a PL runs his platoon- he does not drive the training. He is nothing more than an officer trained in correct employment of snipers. If he makes it his business to be a sort of SS OIC, chances are all he'll do is fuck shit up since that is not his primary duty and cannot devote the required time.

The problem with the way you are reading my reply is you are seeing it in terms of me saying he should not be allowed to go to sniper school. I'm not making that argument... that is irrelevant since the fact is that as an officer, in today's schools, he isn't allowed to attend. My argument is, if he decides he needs to be involved in the training to the same levels as the snipers themselves- at the unit... he is taking assets, materials and time away from the men who will actually be doing the job for the sole purpose of filling personal desires.

Now, moving along from that- does one need to be a trained sniper to understand what a sniper is capable of? No, they do not. They can get this understanding by simply observing training and asking questions. That would be like saying an Air Ops NCO must also be a pilot to understand how to correctly make use of air assets. Or that an infantryman or FO must be a trained artilleryman to be able to make proper use of artillery.

The SEO does not need to know how to properly employ a ghillie and stalk, call wind, call corrections, make dope charts. All they need to know is how to employ snipers, not how to be a sniper. Now if they have that experience, good for them- it certainly won't hurt. But it is not necessary, certainly not at the cost of training for the men who will actually be conducting the missions.

Again, let me make this totally clear- No where did I say officers should not be permitted to attend sniper school itself. Only that sucking up assets that should be utilized by the snipers themselves during unit training is self-serving and irresponsible. Their knowledge requirement can be fulfilled by observing and asking questions.

</div></div>

Well put. I agree, an SEO in my experience does not NEED to be a Sniper to understand how to properly employ them. I have known a few officers that have attended and passed scout sniper school. In my experience it has a way of validating there participation in the training of his or the Snipers in his section, which, is definately not his job or purpose. It is great if said officer attends the sniper training and can still hold true to was his purpose is as an SEO, and not get his paws into the middle of his guys training.

In my mind, sending an officer to scout sniper school is taking away a quota from a student who will actually use those skills learned for real and as a primary mission skull set. Not for bragging rights and a feather in his cap. In all honesty, an SEO is required (in the Marine Corps) to be an Intelligence Officer, and attend the SEO course in Quantico, from there he may only actually be an SEO in a platoon for 1.5 years tops, and that's along time. I would much rather see a qualified Marine attend this course than an officer who's looking go to a course in which he will never use 98% of the skills learned. Send him to the 2 week SEO course and if he wants to learn the individual skill set, he can ask the Marine that just graduated the Sniper School thanks to the officer not snagging his quota.

JMTC

Funny thing is, I've seen quite a few Scout Sniper Platoon Sgt's that were not Snipers themselves. How do you justify having an officer that is a qualified sniper and a Ply. Sgt. That is not? After graduating that officer will NEVER;

Wear a ghillie
Wear cammi paint
Land Nav
Shoot an M40
Adjust his scope
Shoot UKD or KD with an M40
Mil a target
Call for Fire
Mantrack
Etc, etc.

Lot of skills learned that will NEVER be used. Seems like a waste to me. Especially when its at the cost of someone attending that will use those skills as a primary job. The majority of what that SEO will be required to knoe will be located in the Scout Sniper Employment chapter of the HOG Book. </div></div>

The army doesn't allow anyone over E-7 to attend their schools these days, which is why I wasn't really arguing the point of attending the school. But you bring up a very good point with limited slots in these schools- specialized schools of training are usually fairly short on available slots. If an officer who cannot fill the billet of a sniper attends and that prevents a soldier/marine from attending who is filling the billet and waiting on a class date, you've just done the entire section a disservice. Sure you can train him at the unit, but that training will almost never be as intensive and focused as he would receive at the course- the time and funding just isn't available to replicate the training at the unit level.
 
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