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What would you do in this situation?

Chong Li

Chong Li

Private
Minuteman
Sep 15, 2017
44
16
St. Pete, Florida
Just trying to see what the Hide members would do in this situation.

Spoke to a well known gunsmith in January for a TL3/Rock Creek barreled action combo to be dropped in a Core/Manners stock. The smith said it shouldn't be an issue getting it out the door by month end, if the stock is sent asap. I pay for quick shipping to get the stock to the smith and I paid for the action after getting off the phone.

Now we are in May. After a few months of going back and forth via email with their CS, it's the same old "it should be ready soon" talk.

Should I just contact my credit card company to get my money back? I know they'll refund me but the stock that was sent isn't exactly cheap, so I'm not sure if they'll even do me right and send it back.
 
I would pick up the phone and give them a call.

Document date/time of call and who you spoke to.

Bring back additional details.

Others have been down this road before. I am sure they will have additional input.

Good Luck
 
Why does this type of situation, or at least very similar situation, seem so prevalent in the rifle / firearms building industry? I realize people tend to vent a little on the internet as a bit of "therapy" so to speak, but it sure does happen a lot. I myself am trying to patiently wait on a rifle that is being built. Last time I spoke to customer service I was told it was being put together "as we speak" and should ship in the next week or so. That was over 3 weeks ago now.
Either these builders need to be honest with themselves that they are at the mercy of suppliers, or they need to automatically tack on a month or two when quoting a delivery date to give themselves some wiggle room. Lately, just about every company I research has complaints of not meeting deadlines THEY gave when someone ordered something from them. Gets kinda tiring after a while.
I dont mind waiting for quality crafstmanship, but jeez, just be upfront with the typical timeline.
Rio
 
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Here is my two cents. I waited over two years for a custom 1911 to be built. I waited 22 months for a custom single action revolver. I have waited anywhere from three months to 18 months for custom rifles (not to mention the 14 months I waited for a Form 4 to clear). When you are dealing in the realm of hand built firearms to custom specs by master craftsman who often operate one man shops, waiting is the name of the game. Often times these gunsmiths also have to deal with all of the administrative bull shit in addition to making guns (answering phones, dealing with vendors, dealing with UPS/FedEx BS, ATF inspections, etc.). There is no prescribed process/schedule when hand fitting and hand finishing a custom firearm. Every project has its own unique challenges, so it just doesn't make sense to apply a detailed schedule to the process. I know that isn't very satisfying, but it is just the nature of the process. If it came off an assembly line according to a schedule that is predictable down to the minute, it isn't a custom firearm.
 
Most companies are like this because most people are fuck twits.

On the flip side, IF you are honest with your customer they will often times balk at your estimate and go find someone else who will lie to them and tell them they'll have it in a month. Then the prior business is trained by the previous experience and begin to push the limits of the truth in order to stay in business.

Who's to blame in all this? That's up to you to decide.

I can tell you that if you build a reputation for building useable, reliable product, you can make them wait and wait they will. Usually willing to pay extra too. Look to Apple for an example of that type of business model.
 
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Jefe's Dope said:
I can tell you that if you build a reputation for building useable, reliable product, you can make them wait and wait they will. Usually willing to pay extra too.
Click to expand...

I agree with this statement. If a custom shop has a long lead time, that is for two reasons: they have earned more business than they can complete in real time, and they refuse to cut corners. I am more than willing to wait, and pay a premium, for the best. I buy quite a few custom guns from the same sources, and I no longer even ask about schedule or delivery time. I find that gunsmiths appreciate this approach.
 
If you want to send a message... Sounds like you just need to call the HMFIC and get it straightened out. Ensure they understand what they told you in January. Ensure they realize it's been 3 months since January ended. Get a solid deadline established-- no BS when is it really going to be done do not fuck with me. And then make sure it's understood that if that deadline isn't met, you're going to get your parts back at the very least. What you do beyond that is your call and what it takes to get them back will depend on you and the GS.

You don't have to be an asshole, you don't have to be rude but make it very clear that what you were told is not what you're getting and you're not happy about it.


If you still want your rifle done by this guy, then you just wait. Say thanks when it's over, make sure it's all good, and go on with your life.

I would just wait. You're going to be in it way more headache and probably time to fight over paying/not paying for partial work, getting parts back, more shipping, more waiting with someone else, etc...
 
Agree with just keep waiting but try to get some photos of YOUR stuff. Just so you can confirm that its not still sitting in a box in the corner.
 
I don’t understand why people don’t name the builder and see if it’s the same company.

I had my custom built within 2 weeks of buying the first part. My longest wait was the trigger. I really don’t see a point with going to the “builders” who have a 12 month wait.

Is their rifle gonna shoot so much better it took 11 months more to finish? I don’t believe so.
 
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I would escalate it first then out the fuckers on the hide of they dont step up.
 
surgeon260 said:
Here is my two cents. I waited over two years for a custom 1911 to be built. I waited 22 months for a custom single action revolver. I have waited anywhere from three months to 18 months for custom rifles (not to mention the 14 months I waited for a Form 4 to clear). When you are dealing in the realm of hand built firearms to custom specs by master craftsman who often operate one man shops, waiting is the name of the game. Often times these gunsmiths also have to deal with all of the administrative bull shit in addition to making guns (answering phones, dealing with vendors, dealing with UPS/FedEx BS, ATF inspections, etc.). There is no prescribed process/schedule when hand fitting and hand finishing a custom firearm. Every project has its own unique challenges, so it just doesn't make sense to apply a detailed schedule to the process. I know that isn't very satisfying, but it is just the nature of the process. If it came off an assembly line according to a schedule that is predictable down to the minute, it isn't a custom firearm.
Click to expand...
So you are saying that they are saving us all from our own ignorance and that it is the consumers fault. Now reading that back to yourself probably sounds stupid right. If they give a date they should meet it.
 
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Update:

Pro - Builder has decided to ship back my stock and refund once the stock is signed for.

Con - Builder wasn't happy that I wanted a full refund vs. partial refund but for now it's looking like a full refund.

Crazy twist - Tom Manners, whom I've never met or talked to - saw the thread, followed up and offered to his help. I've never spent a cent directly with him, but wow, what CS!

People like him and his offer to help is above and beyond for CS! He has a customer for life and I hope that others see this and use his products.
 
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surgeon260 said:
Here is my two cents. I waited over two years for a custom 1911 to be built. I waited 22 months for a custom single action revolver. I have waited anywhere from three months to 18 months for custom rifles (not to mention the 14 months I waited for a Form 4 to clear). When you are dealing in the realm of hand built firearms to custom specs by master craftsman who often operate one man shops, waiting is the name of the game. Often times these gunsmiths also have to deal with all of the administrative bull shit in addition to making guns (answering phones, dealing with vendors, dealing with UPS/FedEx BS, ATF inspections, etc.). There is no prescribed process/schedule when hand fitting and hand finishing a custom firearm. Every project has its own unique challenges, so it just doesn't make sense to apply a detailed schedule to the process. I know that isn't very satisfying, but it is just the nature of the process. If it came off an assembly line according to a schedule that is predictable down to the minute, it isn't a custom firearm.
Click to expand...

I also dabble in the custom 1911 world and know all about LONG wait times. As a person who has built 1911s from a box of oversized parts and hand fitted everything, I understand that good work takes time. Also, I don't mind long wait times if you tell me it's 5 years and deliver in 4 years.

What I have an issue with is when I pay for something in full with an expectation of meeting a deadline, then also give you 100% extra time to complete the build and you don't deliver - that's when I start getting others involved. Besides, we're talking about assembling a barrel into a action and dropping it into a chassis system - almost anyone who played with an Erector Set can put it together and get a decent product and do it within 1 hour of work. It's not like asking someone to hand engrave the whole hood of a car!


Kadams1563 said:
I don’t understand why people don’t name the builder and see if it’s the same company.
Click to expand...

Not a big fan of slinging mud unless it needs to go there, but from the amount of PMs I have received it seems like people already know.
 
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wade2big said:
So you are saying that they are saving us all from our own ignorance and that it is the consumers fault. Now reading that back to yourself probably sounds stupid right. If they give a date they should meet it.
Click to expand...

Sorry wade, I don't even understand your post. In general (ignoring the OP's specific case for the moment): If you were given a finish date on a custom gun and that date wasn't met, congratulations! You are the 12 millionth person to experience that issue. In my experience, most builders won't even provide a finish date other than a rough time frame. Nothing in this industry happens fast. If you get pissed off every time a stock or a barrel takes an extra few weeks/months or a builder gets in an LE/mil contract just as he is about to start your build (which most builders prioritize first, and rightfully so), then you are going to be endlessly frustrated and you are better off buying an AI or Sako. You can either recognize that the industry doesn't operate with the schedule precision you desire (vendor dependencies, competing priorities, ATF accommodations, running a small business...), or you can buy a more mass produced firearm from a company that is better situated to absorb schedule perturbations. Custom rifle builders are not Amazon, so expecting the equivalent of two day shipping is simply setting yourself up for disappointment. I am just sharing my experience ordering 10 or so custom firearms from a number of top shops in the last decade or so. YMMV.
 
Chong Li said:
What I have an issue with is when I pay for something in full with an expectation of meeting a deadline, then also give you 100% extra time to complete the build and you don't deliver - that's when I start getting others involved. Besides, we're talking about assembling a cut barrel into a action and dropping it into a chassis system - almost anyone who played with an Erector Set can put it together and get a decent product and do it within 1 hour of work.
Click to expand...

Yep, that I totally understand. If you prepaid for a service and they strung you along, I would be upset too. Most shops will use your parts as collateral and won't take service payment until the job is done, so I totally get the frustration. Sorry you had such a downer of an experience.
 
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Chong Li said:
Update:

Pro - Builder has decided to ship back my stock and refund once the stock is signed for.

Con - Builder wasn't happy that I wanted a full refund vs. partial refund but for now it's looking like a full refund.

Crazy twist - Tom Manners, whom I've never met or talked to - saw the thread, followed up and offered to his help. I've never spent a cent directly with him, but wow, what CS!

People like him and his offer to help is above and beyond for CS! He has a customer for life and I hope that others see this and use his products.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Manners is the shizzle.......Have two stocks on order with him as this is being typed. :cool:(y)
 
Chong Li said:
What I have an issue with is when I pay for something in full with an expectation of meeting a deadline, then also give you 100% extra time to complete the build and you don't deliver - that's when I start getting others involved. Besides, we're talking about assembling a barrel into a action and dropping it into a chassis system - almost anyone who played with an Erector Set can put it together and get a decent product and do it within 1 hour of work. It's not like asking someone to hand engrave the whole hood of a car!
Click to expand...

I don't know what all you have being done, but there are a lot of hours of labor in most rifle builds. Measure and document the action, indicate the barrel into the lathe, cut/thread/time/chamber, turn it around and indicate it in again, thread and time, install, prep the stock inlet, bedding, degreasing, blasting, Cerakote. If it's a gas gun, add in profiling the barrel, cutting the gas block journal, and drilling and reaming the gas port but remove the bedding. It's easy to spend an hour trying to source hard-to-find parts and get a price list for a guy who probably never had any intention of actually having the rifle built anyway. I think most people (including the gun plumbers themselves) seriously underestimate the time spent per rifle.

Edited to add- this doesn't excuse ignored deadlines in any way though, I don't want to sound like I'm defending them. Just offering some perspective.
 
Red_SC said:
I don't know what all you have being done, but there are a lot of hours of labor in most rifle builds. Measure and document the action, indicate the barrel into the lathe, cut/thread/time/chamber, turn it around and indicate it in again, thread and time, install, prep the stock inlet, bedding, degreasing, blasting, Cerakote. If it's a gas gun, add in profiling the barrel, cutting the gas block journal, and drilling and reaming the gas port but remove the bedding. It's easy to spend an hour trying to source hard-to-find parts and get a price list for a guy who probably never had any intention of actually having the rifle built anyway. I think most people (including the gun plumbers themselves) seriously underestimate the time spent per rifle.

Edited to add- this doesn't excuse ignored deadlines in any way though, I don't want to sound like I'm defending them. Just offering some perspective.
Click to expand...

Totally understand here - but the action and barrel combo I purchased holds tight and repeatable tolerance that you can essentially spin up a barrel correctly and make sure the critical tolerances are good and that's it. Considering the barrel profile was the most plain-vanilla of them all, in the most plain-vanilla caliber offered and it is offered as a single package on the website. You would think if you offer a common barreled action package it doesn't take that many man hours to complete.

To give you an idea of how quickly the barrel was completed, said smith was balking at giving a full refund due to the fact that the barrel had already been done...over two months ago! Doesn't seem like it takes many man hours if you can have the barrel ready that far in advance.

Add that to the fact that it was to be dropped it into a chassis that requires no bedding, blasting, degreasing, cerakote and was only sent in for checking inletting clearance - you start to wonder where all the time goes in the process.
 
The super long lead times are BS. I'd be willing to bet that most of that time your parts are collecting dust. I know it takes time to set parts up in the lathe and mill, I've done my fair share of making chips, but it doesn't take 3-14 months!! And the argument that the smith doesn't know how long it's going to take is BS also. If he is building high end custom guns, this isn't his first rodeo.

I sent an RCBS 10-10 scale to California to be accurized. I was told to sent the scale and a check to him and I'd have it back in three weeks. Long story short it was four months before I got my scale back. This was after a dozen or so emails and phone calls. Every time he responded with "its almost done". I just sat and watched him post pictures on FB about all these other scales that were getting shipped all over the US and Europe, and which expensive scotch he was drinking that night.

A friend of mine took a rifle to a local smith for a new barrel. Action and stock were already done, just a re-barrel. He was told three months. It took about 13 months. After about 8 months the smith decided he wanted a new rifle so he could come play at the local matches. He documented his build with pictures on FB. From receiving the parts to test firing was about two to three weeks. Why does it take three weeks to build a personal gun and 13 months to re-barrel a customer gun???
 
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I've never had a rifle delivered on time.
 
665.0coupe said:
The super long lead times are BS. I'd be willing to bet that most of that time your parts are collecting dust. I know it takes time to set parts up in the lathe and mill, I've done my fair share of making chips, but it doesn't take 3-14 months!! And the argument that the smith doesn't know how long it's going to take is BS also. If he is building high end custom guns, this isn't his first rodeo.

I sent an RCBS 10-10 scale to California to be accurized. I was told to sent the scale and a check to him and I'd have it back in three weeks. Long story short it was four months before I got my scale back. This was after a dozen or so emails and phone calls. Every time he responded with "its almost done". I just sat and watched him post pictures on FB about all these other scales that were getting shipped all over the US and Europe, and which expensive scotch he was drinking that night.

A friend of mine took a rifle to a local smith for a new barrel. Action and stock were already done, just a re-barrel. He was told three months. It took about 13 months. After about 8 months the smith decided he wanted a new rifle so he could come play at the local matches. He documented his build with pictures on FB. From receiving the parts to test firing was about two to three weeks. Why does it take three weeks to build a personal gun and 13 months to re-barrel a customer gun???
Click to expand...
EXACTLY. Any the bad part is some people are ok with that.
 
I didn't mean to give the impression I'm okay with overdue rifles. The industry is a little on the sleazy side. Mainly because we are so fucking gullible and my general impression based on my experience as a gov't revenuer is people are no damn good.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hey guys, can you please not message me about the name of the smith? As a small business owner myself, I know how hard it is to build a reputation and I'm not looking to ruin one as long as said smith returns the stock and money to fix the situation. For lack of better words, call it professional courtesy.

If things go sour, then yeah, you'll see fireworks...
 
LRI has always been fast. Surgeon about 30 days or less if I gather the parts. Screw GAP, never again.
 
I think we all understand that custom rifles take a while to build in the traditional sense. That said with the movement of “modern smiths” turning out barreled actions on CNC lathes to keep in quick supply it’s understandable for a customer to start to wonder where their rifle is. More so if a smith says they can have it to you by a certain time frame, or even says they have it in queue and are working on it and you know it’s a pretty simple job, ie: bighorn action and cnc’d barrel job; well then I think the customer should start asking questions and can definitely be frustrated if they get the run around.
 
I'm in a similar situation right now, and it's my first custom/semi-custom rifle, so it's really putting a bad taste in my mouth. Sent it off to get the factory barrel replaced in November. By all indications I was supposed to get my gun back in January or February. So in my mind I've already lost at least 2 1/2 months of shooting. What can you do though? They kinda have you by the short and curlies. If I had them send it back, I'd just be starting the same crap with someone else. I've tried to be understanding and patient, and I understand that shit happens sometimes that is out of their control, but geez...

I've only got one precision bolt gun and it's been down for half a year and counting. Should have just bought an AI, haha
 
Solution. Buy in the PX here, most rifles are safe queens anyway. If you look daily, I am sure you can find a rifle to fit your needs at a pretty good discount. If not exactly like you want it, at least you have a barreled action and stocks are easy to find. Sell off what you don't want. Or wait forever.
 
I have seen Tom (Manners) jump in multiple times to help someone out with their build. People seem to listen to him when he calls lol.

I will also say that Diz, from HUBER triggers, will also make a call to a builder for you if your in need of a rifle for a match/hunt.
 
Culpeper said:
I've never had a rifle delivered on time.
Click to expand...
And this is the problem. This would be unacceptable in any other industry. These guys know how long it takes and how far they are behind. To be off by months is either negligence or complete lies. They are misleading people on purpose to secure more work. It’s dishonost. Some of you guys are defending these practices. It shows your character.
 
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Sounds like custom rifles just aren't for you wade. I'm sure AI would love your business, at least until Amazon starts making rifles. Me and my questionable character are off to the range to break in a new barrel, right after I finish microwaving this kitten. My smith asked me for a range report. Cheers.
 
Glad you got it worked out. As to Tom if there is guideline to providing quality customer service Tom probably wrote it. Great guy. It is on that premise that when i order a stock from Manners i don’t ever worry with wait time.

On the other hand as far as smithing goes. Especially getting action barreled. If i need it in a certain time frame or fast my go to is Chad at LRI. 14 days is usually his quote for barreling an action.
 
One more reason i buy AI's (or any other premium factory rifle).
the gunsmith's are putting them selves out of business.
its not 1980 where only a few people could get build a accurate rifle (in general), and you knew of 2 of them. now with the internet it widened our smith options, but they still run their industry the old way.
factory rifles now have options that you could only get at a custom shop for a premium.
and as customers we would still prob pay a premium for the same options if they had communication skills and relative accuracy to original promise date.
the only other occupation that lets someone be consistently inaccurate is a weatherman.
20 years time you will talk about the gunsmith like we do about the milk man if they dont move with the times.
dont want to sound too pissy, but ive been burned on 2 different hunts by 2 different smiths (not local small shops either) that my custom rifle was not finished in time.
 
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Chong Li said:
If there were an option to get an AI barreled action in a Manners stock I'd be all over it.
Click to expand...
Collect the components yourself and sent to LRI. Quality work and fast turn around. Do yourself a favor and by a manners mini chassis and save yourself the bedding blues. Or learn to love a chassis like me. There are so many advantages to using one.
 
I agree I don’t think it’s to much to ask for honesty up front and along the way about lead times. That goes for any type of business. Yes things come up and delays happen but is an honest call and update to much to ask when dropping 3-6k on a rifle. I would think once accustomed to a trade you could about nail down how long each build would take on average
 
"I believe in the sacredness of a promise, that a man's word should be as good as his bond, that character—not wealth or power or position—is of supreme worth."

- John D. Rockefeller


I'm sorry, but no excuse is adequate for repeated failed promises. Anyone can make a mistake or have something unexpected come up once or twice. But you are what you repeatedly do, and if you repeatedly lie, then you're a liar and I have absolutely no use for you.
 
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Bingo, this is why I touched on the modern smith. You can have all the modern CNC machinery in the world, but if you can’t communicate and/or make false promises, or can’t get organized but continue to take on work and new projects, paying customers start getting screwed in a variety of ways. You can even write a big sympathy letter on the Hide and everyone gives you a like including myself for support, but the ball still gets dropped and people get the run around again, and customers start getting at least a little pissed.







brianf said:
One more reason i buy AI's (or any other premium factory rifle).
the gunsmith's are putting them selves out of business.
its not 1980 where only a few people could get build a accurate rifle (in general), and you knew of 2 of them. now with the internet it widened our smith options, but they still run their industry the old way.
factory rifles now have options that you could only get at a custom shop for a premium.
and as customers we would still prob pay a premium for the same options if they had communication skills and relative accuracy to original promise date.
the only other occupation that lets someone be consistently inaccurate is a weatherman.
20 years time you will talk about the gunsmith like we do about the milk man if they dont move with the times.
dont want to sound too pissy, but ive been burned on 2 different hunts by 2 different smiths (not local small shops either) that my custom rifle was not finished in time.
Click to expand...
 
surgeon260 said:
Sounds like custom rifles just aren't for you wade. I'm sure AI would love your business, at least until Amazon starts making rifles. Me and my questionable character are off to the range to break in a new barrel, right after I finish microwaving this kitten. My smith asked me for a range report. Cheers.
Click to expand...
Seems like the majority posting in this thread have the same views as me. Nobody is complaining about long lead times. They are complaining about missed deadlines which some are three times plus what was quoted and this isn't by mistake. If you can't see a problem with this then yes your character is questionable at best.
 
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wade2big said:
Seems like the majority posting in this thread have the same views as me. Nobody is complaining about long lead times. They are complaining about missed deadlines which some are three times plus what was quoted and this isn't by mistake. If you can't see a problem with this then yes your character is questionable at best.
Click to expand...

Exactly. If it’s going to take 12 months that’s fine, but don’t tell me it’s going to take three when you know it’s going to take 12. Or when I call after three months don’t lie to me and say it’s almost done when you haven’t even started yet.
 
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Stuff like this is exactly why for my build over the summer I intend to assemble it myself with a Criterion pre-fit and a barrel nut. That way I only wait on components and don't have to deal with the excessive and unreliable wait times of gunsmiths.

No offense to gunsmiths, but I also do trust myself a bit more since I know it's done right. I'd ream the chamber and do a shouldered barrel myself if the machine shop I have access to would allow it, but it's on a university campus so I imagine it would be heavily frowned upon.
 
Culpeper said:
I've never had a rifle delivered on time.
Click to expand...

Call John Pierce.

Call John Scandale.

Call AJ Brown.

The work I have sent them has beed done according to my exact spec, at or before the lead time I was quoted. That hasn't always been the shortest, and it has certainly not always been the cheapest route, but I like to have confidence that what I need will be delivered, and when it was supposed to be, so I'll pay accordingly.

Good, Fast, Cheap. You only should get two of those choices, and if it's really a niche item or service, you may only get one.

-Nate
 
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