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what would you do.

Ucsspirit

Ucsspirit

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 25, 2012
70
0
43
West Texas
Im posting this here as it has some relevance to the forum. So I have the opportunity to buy an airplane. I know right, big waste of money. but so is everything else in this life so hell with it I might as well enjoy it. The Airplane in question is a 1944 c-45 (beech 18 aka twin beech) and for a very reasonable price. I understand very well what I am getting into with that. however here is the real question.

In conversation with the current aircraft owner, (happens to be a friend of my local FFL dealer). he mentions wanting to get into .50 cal shooting. I just happen to have an EDM Windrunner in .408 with the 50 cal bolt and barrel on the way to my FFL. The Idea of a partial trade comes up as we start discussing guns and long range shooting. what would you value a brand new never fired EDM Windrunner in 408 with spare bolt and barrel for 50, along with c4hd 408 dies, 110 rounds of loaded 408, and 100 rocky mountain 420gn bullets. the scope i have that i was going to put on it is a brand new in box NightForce ATACR in MIL/MIL and badger rings.

would you be wiling to give up a 408, for a plane? I have the cash for the rest of the plane thats a mute point, this is just a way to keep more cash in my account for AD's oil and gas. let me know what you think.
 
Buy a 777... I heard theres one floatin arounds, ill trade. But really enjoy your plane (if you get it)
 
Do the deal, if that is your heart's desire. You can always find or build another
rifle. Chancing on the right plane deal.. not so much.
 
Keep the rifle, buy the plane, shoot hogs, with the rifle, from the plane, to pay for them. My only hesitation would be in buying a 70 year old airplane.
 
Maggot said:
Keep the rifle, buy the plane, shoot hogs, with the rifle, from the plane, to pay for them. My only hesitation would be in buying a 70 year old airplane.
Click to expand...

Airplanes are VERY well maintained in North American and don;t age anywhere NEAR as much as other vehicles, like cars etc.

I'd go for the plane, if it was a good deal. Check out listing sites like barn stormers to make sure you're getting the right price. I'd be inclined to keep both the plane and rifle though if at all possible. Sorry I have no idea what the gun's value is.

James
 
The plane is just that 70 years old, but that is also part of the allure. I can make the purchase and keep the rifle, It was just an idea that came up in conversation. The advantage is, that it frees up a sizable amount of cash for any unexpected expenses. I have a reserve for just that but as mentioned earlier if it flies fucks or floats rent it. I have watched barnstormers, tradeaplane, ebay, and local people. I also have a lot of beech mechanics local to me one of which has done a pre-buy.
 
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The piston fired Tbones are an experience to fly in...that's for sure. Lunch an engine on takeoff, you're augering in n it aint gonna be pretty, not that the turbo prop tbone was much better. That being said, if the price is right and you're willing to deal with two engines to service, get you some wings!
 
Beech 18
Thirsty, slow, can't find parts, radial engines, can't find mechanics to fix it.

Sound nice, looks nice, classic style.

Tell me about the Windrunner again!

Hey... If you have to ask you can't afford. There is NO way you can fly that at under $300 an hour if you did everything yourself including scrounging parts/maintenance, private tie down, no/minimum insurance.

..... wait lets google this:Operating Costs for BEECH 18 H-18S TWIN BEECH Per Hour

From 7 years ago: http://www.beech18.net/toast/toast.asp?sub=show&action=posts&fid=4&tid=5787

Did i mention it sure sounds nice!
 
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Sir thats a dynamite looking aircraft - a mini B25 comes to mind.

I can only imagine the costs of flying/maintaining that thing would be considerable. Still the ear to ear grin would be well worth it. Id imagine it flies off a yoke, Id need to cut the bottom of the wheel to clearance the perma boner upon firing up the engines.

I salute your succes in having reached this point where you have the ability to make such decisions. This is what America is supposed to promote not the idea that you should out of "fairness" never have the means to be faced with this dilemma.

If you are ever in MA can I have a seat for a ride?
 
I am lucky enough to be around several very well experienced beech 18 mechanics. you are more than correct Phil, Op costs are not cheap this day and age, currently around 500-600 an hour. However this is not a lets go boom around the patch type of plane, this is the lets get 6 friends, a cocktail waitress and go to vegas for the weekend. and split the cost 6 ways. thirsty, yes very 40 Gal per hour; slow yes, cruise at 160 indicated; Radials yes, thats just pure awesome. parts are a lot easier than you think to find. This was one of the most widely produced aircraft ever. all in all I think the price is right, lets just say somewhere below $50,000 inspected and ready to fly, with less than 4000 hours on the airframe.
 
For the uninitiated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEkoG9I-aMw

They used to be fairly common and look really nice in a polished finish. A friend of mine used to have one with the square tips aka booster tips. Not as visually appealing as the round ones. As long as its not tricycle gear they all look great. The 450 hp PW actually a pretty reliable engine.

Most of my experience in them was one way trips, if you know what i mean.
 
I'm with 'Phil1' on his view also .

Plus, the few beach 18's that I have ever been around the owners were always wrenching on them and looking for parts . There old loud slow and small door . Also I just LOVE to have oil barfed on your cloths when standing behind prop.blast on start-up with those radials . There are still a couple of the 'westwind', Beach 18 turbine conversions still flying and there a blast & a Real BasAss .
But It & it's like are Rotary engined pig of flying Beer Cans that mostly sit on the Tarmac because there broke or the owners broke-$, (imho) The Beach 18's have gone the way of the DC 3s & that's Strait to the Bone Yard .
.
 
If youre out of debt and your house is paid off and you have the cash to buy it, I would trade the rifle and buy the plane. If the previous isn't true I would take care of those responsibilities first.
 
Sounds like you found a bargain depending on the inspection, I worked on DC3 / C47's for 25 plus years, love the sound of a couple of good running radials. I would go for it.
 
Lucky for me, the only debt i have is my house. and it is currently paying for itself. The airplane will be paid for in full with cash when i buy it. there are no issues there. it also helps that I am single with a great job and no dependents (other than my dog). hence the AWSM in .338, the 408/.50, a belt fed browning, and all the other toys i have. This is one of the last big purchased i want to make BEFORE i settle down. I feel it is easier going into something serious with this upfront, than it is trying to convince household 6 that we need a big, dirty, noisy, old ass airplane.
 
Sounds like an opportunity to acquire some aviation history that will probably not be available again. Just make certain all the history is good, if kept in good condition the value should go up, use it but do not abuse it and you should have a good time.
 
not a plane guy but didn't see it brought up, lets say you get the plane use it for your
vegas run's a few times ( that would be cool as hell) and then you get bored with it or it's
nickel and dimeing ya and you say screw it i'm selling it! what's it going to be worth in a few
years? even with good up keep, will you get your money back or
take a huge bath.
 
My friend has had 2 planes. He told me that any time you want EVERYTHING in your life turned upside down by the IRS just buy a plane. They'll ever try to read your toilet paper.

All that was his words. Not mine. I couldn't afford gas to just warm it up.
 
So a quick update, it looks like the deal is going through. $34,000 cash and rifle/components in trade for the airplane. Its not 100% in stone as we are currently typing up the sales contract. but As soon as I return home from this deployment its all mine. I might even use to go to a few shoots out west. Say what you will, But I am a firm Believer that we need to keep this part of our history alive. You can look at pictures all day, and see old videos, but nothing compares to seeing history right in front of you in real time, sight sounds smell all of it.
 
Ucsspirit said:
we need to keep this part of our history alive. You can look at pictures all day, and see old videos, but nothing compares to seeing history right in front of you in real time, sight sounds smell all of it.
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Damn right! I once took a 500 mile trip in a B-18, totally cool. If you look at Cessna 195s they have gone from $18,000 20 years ago to $120k today. So you might break even and have some fun in the process.
 
Ucsspirit said:
You can look at pictures all day, and see old videos, but nothing compares to seeing history right in front of you in real time, sight sounds smell all of it.
Click to expand...

Congrats on the purchase, but that sentence of yours put an awful image in my head that just won't go away ...

uqi7mvS.png


:eek:
 
Phil1 said:
Damn right! I once took a 500 mile trip in a B-18, totally cool. If you look at Cessna 195s they have gone from $18,000 20 years ago to $120k today. So you might break even and have some fun in the process.
Click to expand...

What killed the idea of an airplane in every family and made aircraft ownership so unaffordable? I can understand the rise in commodities but the price of aircraft seems to outpace that.

The only things I can think of would be regulation and lawyers.

Have the legal people made it so the manufacturers must price in order to pay the survivors of pilots that perform a sloppy walk around?
 
pmclaine said:
What killed the idea of an airplane in every family and made aircraft ownership so unaffordable? I can understand the rise in commodities but the price of aircraft seems to outpace that.

The only things I can think of would be regulation and lawyer
Click to expand...

-That, and the insurance that mechanics, engine builders, and aircraft builders have to carry.
 
The proposed drivers lisc. 3rd class medical may address part of the issue. FAA Apologizes for Driver's License Medical Delay | Flying Magazine

Insurance is a big part. Liability insurance is expensive. High US labor rates another factor.

IMO most people just have no exposure to private aircraft. Cessna used to have a introductory $20 "Learn to Fly" lesson. To get prospective students into the air.They recently cancelled the C-162 production/sales.

The idea that you could take to the air and spend a Saturday flying around for a couple hours. Aimless looking at towns, rivers and just sightseeing is incomprehensible to most.

The fact is that anyone can buy a 1970's C-172 for 40K and hire a instructor to learn to fly it for another 3-4k. Then likely fly it for about 10k a year. Is off the radar for most. No more expensive than boats, vacation homes, etc.
 
Phil1 said:
The proposed drivers lisc. 3rd class medical may address part of the issue. FAA Apologizes for Driver's License Medical Delay | Flying Magazine

Insurance is a big part. Liability insurance is expensive. High US labor rates another factor.

IMO most people just have no exposure to private aircraft. Cessna used to have a introductory $20 "Learn to Fly" lesson. To get prospective students into the air.They recently cancelled the C-162 production/sales.

The idea that you could take to the air and spend a Saturday flying around for a couple hours. Aimless looking at towns, rivers and just sightseeing is incomprehensible to most.

The fact is that anyone can buy a 1970's C-172 for 40K and hire a instructor to learn to fly it for another 3-4k. Then likely fly it for about 10k a year. Is off the radar for most. No more expensive than boats, vacation homes, etc.
Click to expand...

At least where I have grown up, it's not a common idea to learn how to fly, especially at a young age. Then, when older, it's harder to get the time to get out and go do it. Expense is a big part of it. Availability of local airports is as well. The closest place to learn for me now would be about 40 minutes, which I consider very close, actually. If I leave when there is no traffic, it wouldn't be a bad commute. But even then, with work, it's a weekend-only deal. Then factor in weather holds, you start seeing that there really isn't all that much time in the year to do it. Say, two weekends a month? Given the amount of training needed to get to the point where most of the day can be spent actually flying, it's tough to do unless you really have the bug. I wish I had been exposed to it more as a kid. Just like shooting, it's important that we introduce it to the youth, so that more will want to pick it up when they get older and have the means.

As far as the twin beech is concerned, I hear a lot of stories about jumping them from the old timers. Would love to try one someday.
 
One thing I would love to do, if I could ever find a way to make it possible. I would want to give high school student the opportunity to come out to the hanger and work on airplanes, fly them and just be around them. Not new aircraft but things like a piper cubs, stearman's, t-6 texans, and the likes. I would be able get a younger generation interested in history, and make it come to life for them. I would give out a private pilot scholarship, if you will; to a deserving kid and teach them to fly. This program would teach them to follow through with a task, and show them how good it feels to accomplish something. the could earn time working toward an A&P, and for time the volunteered, they could earn flight time, at a reduced rate for the non scholarship kids. This is all a pipe dream for someone with a shit load more money than me.
 
Ucsspirit said:
One thing I would love to do, if I could ever find a way to make it possible. I would want to give high school student the opportunity to come out to the hanger and work on airplanes, fly them and just be around them. Not new aircraft but things like a piper cubs, stearman's, t-6 texans, and the likes. I would be able get a younger generation interested in history, and make it come to life for them. I would give out a private pilot scholarship, if you will; to a deserving kid and teach them to fly. This program would teach them to follow through with a task, and show them how good it feels to accomplish something. the could earn time working toward an A&P, and for time the volunteered, they could earn flight time, at a reduced rate for the non scholarship kids. This is all a pipe dream for someone with a shit load more money than me.
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The gist of your good motivations was my concern about proposed FAA rule changes a few years ago that would have prohibited historic aircraft from being flown or carrying passengers. I think same rules would have greatly hindered air show performances.

Im not a pilot but I logged on the FAA page allowing comments for the rule change and expressed my displeasure. I can only guess but I think air shows account for a whole bunch of young kids that get the bug and determination to later become FA-18 pilots or aeronautical engineers.

This maligning of aircraft owners as "the 1%" or regulating the access away for "our safety" is crap.
 
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Figured I would throw up some of the pics I currently have.
 

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Well I'm back home safe and sound, and just started playing with my new money pit, lucky for me this has turned out to be a great investment with the aircraft a history, it was an original warbird delivered to the US Army air corp in 1941. It's in amazing shape with no corrosion, and some cool parts with date stamps the prove the history (outside of the logs which are complete). Here is a pic or two
 

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Incredible. After I got out of the hospital in Danang, I tried hitching a ride to Ben Hoa, to get back to Division. A guy from the tower walked me out onto the flight line, where one of those exact planes was idling. There were two bird colonels up front, and three general of various stars sitting in back, with an open ice chest (missing it's lid) full of bottles of whiskey and scotch and mixes. The senior guy (3 stars) leaned over, slurred out "C'mon, son, we got room."
 
I was looking at those rather intently, and would still love to have one, the deal I got on the beech was hard to pass up. One day I'll have a T6
 
I got to fly right seat in one during one of the Beech Owners Fly Ins when I worked at Beech (Raytheon back then) Aircraft in the late 90s. It was all polished up on the exterior and very vintage/retro inside. Owners were out giving rides to employees and families. As I climbed aboard I told the owner I was a PPSEL/IR and if it was cool to ride up front. He said sure, and as soon as we're gear up you can have at it. Definitely operator as fuck.

Enjoy your investment!
 
Apparently these bad boys will fly without pilots for a while.....

Explorers Find Air Force Plane that Crashed in '52 | Military.com

One thing the article doesnt answer for me is why the people in the plane left a ship that could fly for another hour.

Edit - Im a plane fan not an expert, excuse me if the article is not a Beech. And OP congratulations! Im sure you will have better luck with your buy.
 
Ucsspirit said:
Well I'm back home safe and sound, and just started playing with my new money pit, lucky for me this has turned out to be a great investment with the aircraft a history, it was an original warbird delivered to the US Army air corp in 1941. It's in amazing shape with no corrosion, and some cool parts with date stamps the prove the history (outside of the logs which are complete). Here is a pic or two
Click to expand...

Jealousy is not becoming to me so Id best just keep quiet.
 
Thanks everyone for the kind words and anyone that mentions this post to me at any of the shoot southwest I attend will be offered a ride in the plane.
 
If your in west Texas your in luck! Guymon OK has about 6 of em parked on the ramp rotting away last time I was there. Classic planes.


Hope there's no suprises for you with it!
 
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