What your groups say about you.

[Shoeylarock4]

I'm new to the precision shooting world (2 years) and I'm starting to shoot consistent small groups.

I was talking to someone some time ago about what your group patterns say about your shooting. Some bad habits you need to correct ect.

Can anyone confirm if this is a thing. Possible provide input to the groups I am shooting

 

[Shoeylarock4]

I have a rifle that's more than capable a custom build 6.5 creedmoor

 

[spife7980]

People say that vertical is the load and horizontal is the shooter.
I dont buy that but its what some people say. A bad shooter can pull them any which way, it doesnt have to be one or the other. And a bad load can throw them however chance dictates it will go.

The only real way is to change something yourself and see if you can tie it to an effect.

 

[Newbie2020]

If you’re at 0.4 to 0.5 moa both you and the rifle are both doing well. Better than most I’d guess.

 

[Coyote-6]

What it says to me is "I need a sneaky way to humble brag". Like when a guy drives a ball 300 yds straight down the middle of the fairway and he says "Damn, I tried to draw it but it went dead straight. I suck!"

Mostly tongue in cheek above, nice shooting! But I think the best advice to you is the old addage of perfection being the enemy of success.

The law of diminishing returns will tell you that getting your groups .1 MOA better will take an extreme amount of effort. Suggest you start challenging yourself in different ways by running under stress, or out to much longer ranges in wind, or moving targets.

Hell your variation could be variables completely outside your control (wind change between shots, charge load, primer seating, OAL difference of .01 in factory ammo, barrel heating, etc)

 

[kthomas]

People say that vertical is the load and horizontal is the shooter.
I dont buy that but its what some people say. A bad shooter can pull them any which way, it doesnt have to be one or the other. And a bad load can throw them however chance dictates it will go.

The only real way is to change something yourself and see if you can tie it to an effect.

Shooter can do a bunch of things to cause inconsistent vertical results.

Improper breathing, improper rear bag handling, etc.

 

[Shoeylarock4]

What it says to me is "I need a sneaky way to humble brag". Like when a guy drives a ball 300 yds straight down the middle of the fairway and he says "Damn, I tried to draw it but it went dead straight. I suck!"

Mostly tongue in cheek above, nice shooting! But I think the best advice to you is the old addage of perfection being the enemy of success.

The law of diminishing returns will tell you that getting your groups .1 MOA better will take an extreme amount of effort. Suggest you start challenging yourself in different ways by running under stress, or out to much longer ranges in wind, or moving targets.

Hell your variation could be variables completely outside your control (wind change between shots, charge load, primer seating, OAL difference of .01 in factory ammo, barrel heating, etc)

For everyone one of these great groups I had 2 bad ones where I would send fliers.. or jumped the trigger. Removed my weld to chamber again... I'm learning.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

You on a cheek rest?

 

[Coyote-6]

For everyone one of these great groups I had 2 bad ones where I would send fliers.. or jumped the trigger. Removed my weld to chamber again... I'm learning.

So show us those groups! Showing winners won't get you any help, because they're winners!

Show us the weakness if you want to correct said weakness.

But mind you, there will be 1.5M opinions here at least. It will be up to you to sort it all out.

I also recommend on Amazon:

Precision Rifle Marksmanship: The Fundamentals - A Marine Sniper's Guide to Long Range Shooting​

I've taken many snip-it's from this book that I believe help hone the basics which should translate to more success in the details for you too.

 

[Baron23]

Just me and I’m not one of the experts here…at all.

but Ivan easily pull vertically w bad trigger control. Not “pressing” straight back and “pulling” back and up which is easier for me to do w a grip that slants back (think hunting stock) than w a more vertical grip.

But, consider the source and take this w a grain of salt.

 

[Steel head]

People say that vertical is the load and horizontal is the shooter.
I dont buy that but its what some people say. A bad shooter can pull them any which way, it doesnt have to be one or the other. And a bad load can throw them however chance dictates it will go.

The only real way is to change something yourself and see if you can tie it to an effect.

I remember when I first started trying to improve my skills having a vertical phase then a horizontal phase.
Shooter can definitely cause both in my opinion.
I remember believing that bipods caused hop especially on benches.

 

[diggler1833]

My groups usually say I need another beer...

Seriously though, the fuckwit on the gun can negatively impact everything that has to with both consistency and placement.

The first thing you need to do is make sure your rifle/load is consistent and accurate...can't work on you until that. (Not directed at anyone, just hypothetical) are you a 2 MOA shooter or is it just your rifle?

 

[Supersubes]

I'm new to the precision shooting world (2 years) and I'm starting to shoot consistent small groups.

I was talking to someone some time ago about what your group patterns say about your shooting. Some bad habits you need to correct ect.

Can anyone confirm if this is a thing. Possible provide input to the groups I am shooting

View attachment 7703319

Dick shaped groups say more about you than your shooting.

 

[Holliday]

For everyone one of these great groups I had 2 bad ones where I would send fliers.. or jumped the trigger. Removed my weld to chamber again... I'm learning.

If you’re anything like me you earn every good group. Brag it up! Celebrate! Life hands us all enough crap along the way.

Tigers care not the thoughts of.........

 

[STXLeroy]

My groups normally scream at me, such as going through nicotine withdrawals. Or I'm sweating and the mosquitoes are eating me. Or I'm hungover. But then there are the perfect ones that keep me hunting for accuracy. Good shooting bro and keep it up. I was a lurker for many years and have learned a ton of information from listening to what's said on these forums.

 

[supercorndogs]

Those groups say to me, you need to zero your rifle better.

 

[Shoeylarock4]

So show us those groups! Showing winners won't get you any help, because they're winners!

Show us the weakness if you want to correct said weakness.

But mind you, there will be 1.5M opinions here at least. It will be up to you to sort it all out.

I also recommend on Amazon:

Precision Rifle Marksmanship: The Fundamentals - A Marine Sniper's Guide to Long Range Shooting​

I've taken many snip-it's from this book that I believe help hone the basics which should translate to more success in the details for you too.

Note the top shot is from me zeroing another rifle

 

[Shoeylarock4]

You on a cheek rest?

 

[carbonbased]

I gotta few fliers here. Help me out…it's gotta say something about me.

 

[candyx]

Shooting groups doesn't that mean your barrel is bent or something.

 

[carbonbased]

Shooting groups doesn't that mean your barrel is bent or something.

Ok, didn’t mean that (i.e. people that shoot groups are gay). Whoops!

I just read the thread title and a joke appeared in my head. I’m in a jokey mood today…

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

People say that vertical is the load and horizontal is the shooter.
I dont buy that but its what some people say. A bad shooter can pull them any which way, it doesnt have to be one or the other. And a bad load can throw them however chance dictates it will go.

The only real way is to change something yourself and see if you can tie it to an effect.

I’ve been told by a person who load tests at Lapua, “the horizontal strings are from differing neck tension”

but IDK

 

[Im2bent]

These guys in this forum are jerks. They just want to make fun of you man. Just ignore them.

Hunter to hunter: Pretty much any ammo you put through that gun should shoot 1 MOA. Most of this crowd shoot PRS and carry their precious ammo ensconced in bubble wrap.

I don’t have time for that jizz.

You probably just need a really thorough cleaning. Occasionally those Finns ship fairly dirty barrels straight from the factory. Happened to me, happened to a buddy of mine.

Tikka has semi-spotty QA, and they save money by not prepping the guns like a quality company does (like Accuracy International, Anschutz, Savage, etc).

But Tikka does pass that saving on to you. So there’s that. But you’ll have to work at it a little.

Here’s what you’re gonna do:

1. Get some ammonia-based bore cleaner. That stuff works better than Hoppes.
2. Plug muzzle with an ear plug, preferably with some ear wax still on it so you get a better seal. Don’t want this stuff leaking out on your old ladies dining room table!
3. Heat ammonia cleaner up so it’s hot (edit: I boil it)
4. Pour in
5. Crack a beer
6. Let it set for a couple days at least. Longer is better. I left mine in my Tikka for 3 weeks. If it evaporates, top it off. (edit: I place a Bunsen-burner under the muzzle to keep the ammonia hot Pro tip: use heat resistant ear plugs)
7. Pour out cleaner
8. Attach stainless-steel brush to your cleaning rod. I like to use a three-piece cleaning rod so I can field carry it.
9. Apply bore paste liberally to brush and scrub vigorously (edit: and the faster you go, the cleaner it gets!). Make sure you go all the way out of the muzzle so you really get the muzzle clean when you pull the brush back through. A dirty muzzle is often the reason for poor groups…little known fact.
10. Dry patch
11. Go to the range and hammer 0.5” groups all day long plus twice on Sunday.
12. If the gun still won’t shoot, explain to those socialist Finns what you did to try to fix it (I call this, “paint the Finn into the sauna corner”). They’ll have no recourse then.

I gotta few fliers here. Help me out…it's gotta say something about me.

View attachment 7703961

Your 30x1 looks amazing to me

 

[Greg Langelius *]

The better a shooter one becomes, the less the groups say about the shooter, and the more they say about the gear.

In the beginning, not much can be said except that the shooters' inability to obtain consistency masks the underlying accuracy of their equipment. The better the shooter gets, the more accurate their assessment of equipment accuracy can become.

This is an argument against going out and getting the ultimate best equipment when starting out. It's difficult to impossible for the beginner to accurately assess the contribution their equipment's degree of perfection is exercising on their performance. It's only when the shooter gets their game together that the better or worse effects a modification to their equipment will impose on their overall performance.

The argument that one can never shoot well without the better gear does not hold water. Until the the shooter's skills improve to the point where they can consistently identify whether it's their own skills or their equipment that is holding them back, their improvement will be more difficult. Without the skills, no amount of money can be thrown at the problem that will have a meaningful benefit. A bad shooter with bad gear is a bad shooter; a bad shooter with outstanding gear is still a bad shooter.

The shooting process depends upon a system composed of the equipment, the environment, and the shooter's skills. All three must cooperate for success to result.

It's like the tripod stool. Until all the legs are comparably good, that seat's just never gonna be level.

Greg

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

The better a shooter one becomes, the less the groups say about the shooter, and the more they say about the gear.

In the beginning, not much can be said except that the shooters' inability to obtain consistency masks the underlying accuracy of their equipment. The better the shooter gets, the more accurate their assessment of equipment accuracy can become.

This is an argument against going out and getting the ultimate best equipment when starting out. It's difficult to impossible for the beginner to accurately assess the contribution their equipment's degree of perfection is exercising on their performance. It's only when the shooter gets their game together that the better or worse effects a modification to their equipment will impose on their overall performance.

The argument that one can never shoot well without the better gear does not hold water. Until the the shooter's skills improve to the point where they can consistently identify whether it's their own skills or their equipment that is holding them back, their improvement will be more difficult. Without the skills, no amount of money can be thrown at the problem that will have a meaningful benefit. A bad shooter with bad gear is a bad shooter; a bad shooter with outstanding gear is still a bad shooter.

The shooting process depends upon a system composed of the equipment, the environment, and the shooter's skills. All three must cooperate for success to result.

It's like the tripod stool. Until all the legs are comparably good, that seat's just never gonna be level.

Greg

Have you ever talked a fellow out of buying a better rifle in favor of a more simple design? Because I think we met in Northern AZ the day I bought my first rifle.

if it wasn’t you it darn well was a man like you. What won me over is when he said “and for the difference in price a guy can buy a bunch of ammo, you can’t get better without practice”

sage advice.

 

[DocRDS]

In related news came across this today


My groups say
"YOU SUCK TAKE A CLASS ALREADY"

I just wish they'd stop yelling at the RO as well.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Have you ever talked a fellow out of buying a better rifle in favor of a more simple design? Because I think we met in Northern AZ the day I bought my first rifle.

if it wasn’t you it darn well was a man like you. What won me over is when he said “and for the difference in price a guy can buy a bunch of ammo, you can’t get better without practice”

sage advice.

Yes, many, in fact; but I haven't been in N. AZ since the mid-1970's, and I was yet to get back into guns back then. Must have been one of my readers. mentors. ETA: Since I wasn't shooting then, I also wasn't writing, so there couldn't have been any readers back then. You have no idea how satisfying it is to see the message being repeated (no matter where they got it).

I will, while we're on the subject, outline my reasons.

Less cost is not an impediment to good accuracy, since the rifle itself is only a part of the equation. All parts are equally important, but cost and complexity are not at all necessarily an indicator of good groups to came. What's more important is that what you get is functional. Some isn't and that's a QC issue, not a rifle design or cost issue. It Is true that manufacturing failures can be more common in the lower tier of some manufacturers' product lines, but the forums of SH have gone an immense way toward making us all aware of where to look. I devote most of my time to working and writing for that level of shooter. That complexity can be confusing to the learning shooter; presenting tasks and decisions that are outside the absolute necessities of learning the crucial basics: position, breathing, trigger manipulation, and recoil management/followthrough.

I learned all of my shooting skills (but wind) with a single shot 22 and iron sights. I later went back, after N/M Highpower, to the 22 to learn wind by shooting it out to 250yd. I perfected my Offhand in my basement with a 17cal break-open pellet gun. Nothing (besides C/F) that I was shooting cost as much as $100 back then.

At its simplest, we all have to start somewhere. Like swimming, it's better to wade into the shallow pools than to dive headfirst into the rapids.

I began my shooting in the later 1950's, shooting a Savage-Anschutz Single shot 22lr at one of the Boys' Club's in Newark, NJ under the auspices of the PAL (Police Athletic League). In case nobody's noticed, that's not possible in these our current days. Our world has changed, not for the better, and not by accident.

When we take it all back, we'll need to pick it all back up at a much lower level that most of us are imagining. One cannot build on a footing of sand. I sincerely hope folks are finally thinking on that level, and working on providing and protecting the means to make it happen. If you're not already working toward that goal, get crackin'. Time, tide, and the proper response to a Communist Takeover wait for no man.

Heinlein said that it will be the Veterans who save this world from its out of their mind governments. This Veteran would love to, but at 75, just staying head of the nipping teeth of Ma Nature and her evil Cousin, Agent Orange, is a goal we are already guaranteed to lose. We are the ones who understand sacrifice, and taking chances for the better good. If there is something good still left for us to do in our troubled lives, taking back our world from its out of their minds governments is a righteous goal. We let this happen, and it's up to us to at least start the Restoration. Our oaths have never had an expiration date. We have the skills and at our ages, we also have a bit less to lose.

Get Crackin', the clock is ticking.

Greg

 

[db2000]

Magnetospeed speed on barrel caused this and it was repeatable.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

..and 'Y' stands for Yeowch!

Make certain that enough space exists between the Magnetospeed and the barrel to ensure that it does not get contacted by the barrel during its harmonic swings. I would add some shims between the m-speed and its mounting surface. If that's the issue, you'll never get any better until you remove any potential contact.

On your targets, a lone shot, especially a first one, could result from a clean, dry bore. That lacks both heat and fouling that can alter bore transit time.

Group shooters gay... Hmfff...

Most of my shooting is load development, and I haven't found a better way than shooting groups. If there is one, I'd happily switch to it.

Please enlighten us.

Personally, I think you may have too much gear. Chronos are excellent for establishing MV's from which to plot trajectories. Beyond that, I prefer the target/groups for finding accuracy. IMHO, group size and MV are only tangentially related, and MV's most useful derivative is vertical spread at greater distances. But come right down to it, technology confuses issues, consistently good targets simplify them.

Greg

 

[carbonbased]

Group shooters gay... Hmfff...

Most of my shooting is load development, and I haven't found a better way than shooting groups. If there is one, I'd happily switch to it.

Please enlighten us.

A couple posts under my Gay group I explained I didn’t mean to infer shooting groups is gay. I shoot groups too.

I just saw the thread title and saw a joke in my mind, made the pic and uploaded it for a laff.

Q: What do your groups say about you?
A: That I’m gay! WTF! I’m suing the ammo manuf!

Get it?

Again, MY group told ME that I’M gay. Get it?

Think of your group as a Magic 8-ball, lol. Man, that would be so creepy!

Sorry for any confusion.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Yes, many, in fact; but I haven't been in N. AZ since the mid-1970's, and I was yet to get back into guns back then. Must have been one of my readers. You have no idea how satisfying it is to see the message being repeated.

I will, while we're on the subject, outline my reasons.

Less cost is not an impediment to good accuracy, since the rifle itself is only a part of the equation. All parts are equally important, but cost and complexity are not at all necessarily an indicator of good groups to came. What's more important is that what you get is functional. Some isn't and that's a QC issue, not a rifle design or cost issue. It Is true that manufacturing failures can be more common in the lower tier of some manufacturers' product lines, but the forums of SH have gone an immense way toward making us all aware of where to look. I devote most of my time to working and writing for that level of shooter. That complexity can be confusing to the learning shooter; presenting tasks and decisions that are outside the absolute necessities of learning the crucial basics: position, breathing, trigger manipulation, and recoil management/followthrough.

At its simplest, we all have to start somewhere. Like swimming, it's better to wade into the shallow pools than to dive headfirst into the rapids.

I began my shooting in the later 1950's, shooting a Savage-Anschutz Single shot 22lr at one of the Boys' Club's in Newark, NJ under the auspices of the PAL (Police Athletic League). In case nobody's noticed, that's not possible in these our current days. Our world has changed, not for the better, and not by accident.

When we take it all back, we'll need to pick it all back up at a much lower level that most of us are imagining. One cannot build on a footing of sand. I sincerely hope folks are finally thinking on that level, and working on providing and protecting the means to make it happen. If you're not already working toward that goal, get crackin'. Time, tide, and the proper response to a Communist Takeover wait for no man.

Heinlein said that it will be the Veterans who save this world from its out of their mind governments. This Veteran would love to, but at 75, just staying head of the nipping teeth of Ma Nature and her evil Cousin, Agent Orange, is a goal we are already guaranteed to lose. We are the ones who understand sacrifice, and taking chances for the better good. If there is something good still left for us to do in our troubled lives, taking back our world from its out of their minds governments is a righteous goal.

Get Crackin', the clock is ticking.

Greg

I hear you. Took another new shooter out today and taught him to zero his rifle and we shot out to 200yds.

just because they own a rifle…….doesn’t make them a rifleman.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I was joking...; apparently an exercise at which I suck...

Oh, well...

LOL

Greg

 

[GONE BAD]

When you suck and the rifle sucks you can always blame the ammo.

When you suck and you know your rifle doesn't you can always blame the ammo.

When you know you're more than capable and you know your rifle is more than capable and you still can't shoot a group you can always blame the ammo.

And then sometimes you get lucky
The low one is clean cold bore .
The other 3 shot.
Then I let the rifle cool and after an hour shot it with the magnetospeed.
3 shots 2868, 2868, 2868
No sense in wasting ammo in these times

 

[Aftermath]

If my groups are large, it tells me that I need more group therapy.
If my groups are small, it tells me that my group therapy is working.
Once in a while, the wife tells me that I should go get some group therapy.

 

[Aftermath]

I gotta few fliers here. Help me out…it's gotta say something about me.

View attachment 7703961

Looks like you are aiming for the stars. I'm no psychologist but you may be setting yourself up for disappointment and heart break. I get how setting lofty goals sometimes motivates one to achieve better but I recommend aiming a litttttttttttle bit lower, or maybe just lower your standards by about 2 MOA and you should be able to feel much better about your abilities.

 

[BillyNg]

I read my groups once. They told me that fortune cookies don't tell real fortunes, that my right testicle is slightly mushier than the left, and that I get excited by sock lint stuck to sweaty feet.

I stopped reading groups after that.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Goals are great, but they are not supposed to be the first step. That true first step is some serious getting down and carefully shooting groups to establish a ballpark/benchmark performance level. Once that average is established, the first actual goal should be to decrease that group size by small increments. Eventually those groups won't decrease no matter what. This establishes your peak performance.

It is only at this point where one might seriously expect to see improvement from more serious equipment. Until you know your peak, you can't chase a better one, and better equipment would be being wasted on a futile goal.

If you can't outshoot your current gear with someone else's better gear, you probably don't deserve better gear. This realization has broken a few folks' widdew hearts, but it is always true.

Not all of us, myself included, have enough of that right stuff. If winning was easy, we'd all be doing it, and some of us just will not ever get there; sad but true, perfection isn't for everyone, or available for any price.

I recommend golf (Barrrrrffff).

Greg

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Try this for a bit of a different idea on shooting groups...

Rifle Kraft

 

[carbonbased]

Looks like you are aiming for the stars. I'm no psychologist but you may be setting yourself up for disappointment and heart break. I get how setting lofty goals sometimes motivates one to achieve better but I recommend aiming a litttttttttttle bit lower, or maybe just lower your standards by about 2 MOA and you should be able to feel much better about your abilities.

Thinking this is sarcasm, or you really didn’t get the joke. The image is photoshopped by me.

 

[Im2bent]

Thinking this is sarcasm, or you really didn’t get the joke. The image is photoshopped by me.

I thought it was funny

 

[Aftermath]

Thinking this is sarcasm, or you really didn’t get the joke. The image is photoshopped by me.

I got that joke.....pure sarcasm!