When I take my little 17 to the 100 yard line, I can usually put 25 round inside a 2" circle. Sometimes I'll check out the targets of the guys shooting centerfires (the ones not using vices or lead sleds), and their 5-round groups are about 3". Even guys using fairly new Remy 700's. Meanwhile I read about all the latest centerfire rifles coming out and how they are tested at 100 and produce 5-round groups that are usually 1" - 1.5". Obviously there is a lot more recoil to deal with, as well as different skill levels, but why am I seeing this as pretty much the norm?? What are you guys producing? The reason I ask is because I had a .308 Winchester that I never took to the range, and am considering purchasing another one.
What's a good centerfire group?
- Thread starter SmallBoreSnipers
- Start date
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BadBot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my 308 savage will do less than 1" @ 100y </div></div>
Ditto... back when I my Savage 10FPLE, I would get really upset if it got past 3/4"...
I can't hold 1" @ 50yards with my boys Mossberg .22 Plinksters though.
DK
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BadBot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my 308 savage will do less than 1" @ 100y </div></div>
Ditto... back when I my Savage 10FPLE, I would get really upset if it got past 3/4"...
I can't hold 1" @ 50yards with my boys Mossberg .22 Plinksters though.
DK
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
The ultimate question with no ultimate answer!
I live watching guys at the range with huge nasty recoil monsters getting absolutely murdered with recoil & laying bullets all over the 8x11" sheet their POA target is printed on. These guys litterally are so gun shy & cannot shoot without flinching or just jerking the trigger... hence the horrible or lack of groups! Some people are flat out no good behind a rifle, etc, etc, etc. There are so many variables it would take several pages to list them all.
I have a bunch of rifles that will print 1/4" & smaller 5 shot groups. Then there are the 6PPC's that will shoot 5 rounds in the 1's & smaller. Of course these are customs with handloads. Besides the addition of a comp trigger I do have a couple centerfires that shoot 1/4 MOA.
The ultimate question with no ultimate answer!
I live watching guys at the range with huge nasty recoil monsters getting absolutely murdered with recoil & laying bullets all over the 8x11" sheet their POA target is printed on. These guys litterally are so gun shy & cannot shoot without flinching or just jerking the trigger... hence the horrible or lack of groups! Some people are flat out no good behind a rifle, etc, etc, etc. There are so many variables it would take several pages to list them all.
I have a bunch of rifles that will print 1/4" & smaller 5 shot groups. Then there are the 6PPC's that will shoot 5 rounds in the 1's & smaller. Of course these are customs with handloads. Besides the addition of a comp trigger I do have a couple centerfires that shoot 1/4 MOA.
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
I typically shoot 5 round groups with my AR 308 that are actually negative MOA. I know that this is hard to believe- Im just that f'n good.
I'm not too experienced and I don't know sh*t, but I hardly ever see 5 shot 1/2 moa groups at the range. To paraphrase LL, "where are all of the 1/2" shooters and their 1/2" guns?"
I typically shoot 5 round groups with my AR 308 that are actually negative MOA. I know that this is hard to believe- Im just that f'n good.
I'm not too experienced and I don't know sh*t, but I hardly ever see 5 shot 1/2 moa groups at the range. To paraphrase LL, "where are all of the 1/2" shooters and their 1/2" guns?"
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
So those of us that actually know what the hell they're doing produce the groups that I would expect from these types of rifles. All I needed to know. Thanks guys!
So those of us that actually know what the hell they're doing produce the groups that I would expect from these types of rifles. All I needed to know. Thanks guys!
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
I only have one factory rifle that will consistantly shoot less than 1 inch.A few others that will,sometimes.All of my customs will,or they won't be here very long.While i'm chasing sub moa,i've often laughed (quietly of course)at guys chasing sub 8 1/2x11 inch groups.I know that some guys have never had any training,and only shoot a half box of ammo a year,in a rifle thats never been tuned or worked on.I would never insult a newby about this. Pete
I only have one factory rifle that will consistantly shoot less than 1 inch.A few others that will,sometimes.All of my customs will,or they won't be here very long.While i'm chasing sub moa,i've often laughed (quietly of course)at guys chasing sub 8 1/2x11 inch groups.I know that some guys have never had any training,and only shoot a half box of ammo a year,in a rifle thats never been tuned or worked on.I would never insult a newby about this. Pete
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
I've been working on a SPS Varmint in 308 for a couple months now and have it to where I am getting consistant 5 shot groups in the .6" neighborhood with factory 168gr Amax match ammo. All I have done to the gun is replaced the crappy stock with a B&C and tuned up the trigger. I consider MOA accuracy out of the box(with the proper ammo of course) to be acceptable, and with handloads 1/2 MOA should be very doable. Having said that, trigger time and diligent practice are what lead to consistant sub MOA groups.
We have a gentleman at our range who I have nicknamed "PIEPLATE"...he is happy if his groups are the size of a pie plate. I guess everyones expectations are different lol...
I've been working on a SPS Varmint in 308 for a couple months now and have it to where I am getting consistant 5 shot groups in the .6" neighborhood with factory 168gr Amax match ammo. All I have done to the gun is replaced the crappy stock with a B&C and tuned up the trigger. I consider MOA accuracy out of the box(with the proper ammo of course) to be acceptable, and with handloads 1/2 MOA should be very doable. Having said that, trigger time and diligent practice are what lead to consistant sub MOA groups.
We have a gentleman at our range who I have nicknamed "PIEPLATE"...he is happy if his groups are the size of a pie plate. I guess everyones expectations are different lol...
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
I see it at the range too. Guys with 300wm, wsm's Weatherby's, 338's all these cannons for shooting deer at 50 yards. These guys show up a week before hunting season with a few boxes of whatever ammo is on sale with no regard to bullet weight or anything. Most of them have flimsy junk plastic stocks, and 7lb factory triggers that they just hammer on. Simmons, Tasco, and Bushnell banner scopes are commonplace. These guys mess around at the 100 yard range for about ten shots until they realize they will have to go to 50 to get it on paper. They get on paper with one shot, and adjust their scope. shoot another shot, adjust...... They leave after their forehead is bleeding and they are out of ammo. Last fall, shooting after my flight to verify my zero, I had do deal with that crowd. They were f'n amazed at my 3/4" groups. Damn weekend warriors with their garbage.
I see it at the range too. Guys with 300wm, wsm's Weatherby's, 338's all these cannons for shooting deer at 50 yards. These guys show up a week before hunting season with a few boxes of whatever ammo is on sale with no regard to bullet weight or anything. Most of them have flimsy junk plastic stocks, and 7lb factory triggers that they just hammer on. Simmons, Tasco, and Bushnell banner scopes are commonplace. These guys mess around at the 100 yard range for about ten shots until they realize they will have to go to 50 to get it on paper. They get on paper with one shot, and adjust their scope. shoot another shot, adjust...... They leave after their forehead is bleeding and they are out of ammo. Last fall, shooting after my flight to verify my zero, I had do deal with that crowd. They were f'n amazed at my 3/4" groups. Damn weekend warriors with their garbage.
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
I know a guy that has a nice 5R who refuses to shoot match ammo because, and I quote, "Man I ain't shootin that expensive shit." - I say a little prayer for that rifle every night...
I know a guy that has a nice 5R who refuses to shoot match ammo because, and I quote, "Man I ain't shootin that expensive shit." - I say a little prayer for that rifle every night...
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see it at the range too. Guys with 300wm, wsm's Weatherby's, 338's all these cannons for shooting deer at 50 yards. These guys show up a week before hunting season with a few boxes of whatever ammo is on sale with no regard to bullet weight or anything. Most of them have flimsy junk plastic stocks, and 7lb factory triggers that they just hammer on. Simmons, Tasco, and Bushnell banner scopes are commonplace. These guys mess around at the 100 yard range for about ten shots until they realize they will have to go to 50 to get it on paper. They get on paper with one shot, and adjust their scope. shoot another shot, adjust...... They leave after their forehead is bleeding and they are out of ammo. Last fall, shooting after my flight to verify my zero, I had do deal with that crowd. They were f'n amazed at my 3/4" groups. Damn weekend warriors with their garbage.</div></div>
I do know what you are talking about here, but not everyone is a paper shooter. I have seen guys that can't shoot a 2" group at 100 yards on paper make fantastic shots on game, and rarely if ever miss when shooting at fur. I'm not talking about shooting deer at 50 yards either. I'm talking about making 400 yard coyote shots while sitting on their asses and resting their elbows on their knees, or hitting a bounding mule deer that is at 700 yards while laying across their back pack.
I have also seen talented paper shooters absolutely start shaking when they see a medium sized deer and miss at 30 yards. I don't know how many times I have heard paper shooters say "I don't know how to shoot like that" when we hike up to a game animal and have a 200 yard chip shot with no available bench rest. My reply is always "did you want me to pack one in for you?".
There is a difference in being good on paper and good in real life (much respect to the ones that are good with the kind that shoot back), and I find very few who can do both.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see it at the range too. Guys with 300wm, wsm's Weatherby's, 338's all these cannons for shooting deer at 50 yards. These guys show up a week before hunting season with a few boxes of whatever ammo is on sale with no regard to bullet weight or anything. Most of them have flimsy junk plastic stocks, and 7lb factory triggers that they just hammer on. Simmons, Tasco, and Bushnell banner scopes are commonplace. These guys mess around at the 100 yard range for about ten shots until they realize they will have to go to 50 to get it on paper. They get on paper with one shot, and adjust their scope. shoot another shot, adjust...... They leave after their forehead is bleeding and they are out of ammo. Last fall, shooting after my flight to verify my zero, I had do deal with that crowd. They were f'n amazed at my 3/4" groups. Damn weekend warriors with their garbage.</div></div>
I do know what you are talking about here, but not everyone is a paper shooter. I have seen guys that can't shoot a 2" group at 100 yards on paper make fantastic shots on game, and rarely if ever miss when shooting at fur. I'm not talking about shooting deer at 50 yards either. I'm talking about making 400 yard coyote shots while sitting on their asses and resting their elbows on their knees, or hitting a bounding mule deer that is at 700 yards while laying across their back pack.
I have also seen talented paper shooters absolutely start shaking when they see a medium sized deer and miss at 30 yards. I don't know how many times I have heard paper shooters say "I don't know how to shoot like that" when we hike up to a game animal and have a 200 yard chip shot with no available bench rest. My reply is always "did you want me to pack one in for you?".
There is a difference in being good on paper and good in real life (much respect to the ones that are good with the kind that shoot back), and I find very few who can do both.
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fireguyty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see it at the range too. Guys with 300wm, wsm's Weatherby's, 338's all these cannons for shooting deer at 50 yards. These guys show up a week before hunting season with a few boxes of whatever ammo is on sale with no regard to bullet weight or anything. Most of them have flimsy junk plastic stocks, and 7lb factory triggers that they just hammer on. Simmons, Tasco, and Bushnell banner scopes are commonplace. These guys mess around at the 100 yard range for about ten shots until they realize they will have to go to 50 to get it on paper. They get on paper with one shot, and adjust their scope. shoot another shot, adjust...... They leave after their forehead is bleeding and they are out of ammo. Last fall, shooting after my flight to verify my zero, I had do deal with that crowd. They were f'n amazed at my 3/4" groups. Damn weekend warriors with their garbage.</div></div>
I do know what you are talking about here, but not everyone is a paper shooter. I have seen guys that can't shoot a 2" group at 100 yards on paper make fantastic shots on game, and rarely if ever miss when shooting at fur. I'm not talking about shooting deer at 50 yards either. I'm talking about making 400 yard coyote shots while sitting on their asses and resting their elbows on their knees, or hitting a bounding mule deer that is at 700 yards while laying across their back pack.
I have also seen talented paper shooters absolutely start shaking when they see a medium sized deer and miss at 30 yards. I don't know how many times I have heard paper shooters say "I don't know how to shoot like that" when we hike up to a game animal and have a 200 yard chip shot with no available bench rest. My reply is always "did you want me to pack one in for you?".
There is a difference in being good on paper and good in real life (much respect to the ones that are good with the kind that shoot back), and I find very few who can do both. </div></div>
Good post
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fireguyty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see it at the range too. Guys with 300wm, wsm's Weatherby's, 338's all these cannons for shooting deer at 50 yards. These guys show up a week before hunting season with a few boxes of whatever ammo is on sale with no regard to bullet weight or anything. Most of them have flimsy junk plastic stocks, and 7lb factory triggers that they just hammer on. Simmons, Tasco, and Bushnell banner scopes are commonplace. These guys mess around at the 100 yard range for about ten shots until they realize they will have to go to 50 to get it on paper. They get on paper with one shot, and adjust their scope. shoot another shot, adjust...... They leave after their forehead is bleeding and they are out of ammo. Last fall, shooting after my flight to verify my zero, I had do deal with that crowd. They were f'n amazed at my 3/4" groups. Damn weekend warriors with their garbage.</div></div>
I do know what you are talking about here, but not everyone is a paper shooter. I have seen guys that can't shoot a 2" group at 100 yards on paper make fantastic shots on game, and rarely if ever miss when shooting at fur. I'm not talking about shooting deer at 50 yards either. I'm talking about making 400 yard coyote shots while sitting on their asses and resting their elbows on their knees, or hitting a bounding mule deer that is at 700 yards while laying across their back pack.
I have also seen talented paper shooters absolutely start shaking when they see a medium sized deer and miss at 30 yards. I don't know how many times I have heard paper shooters say "I don't know how to shoot like that" when we hike up to a game animal and have a 200 yard chip shot with no available bench rest. My reply is always "did you want me to pack one in for you?".
There is a difference in being good on paper and good in real life (much respect to the ones that are good with the kind that shoot back), and I find very few who can do both. </div></div>
Good post
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
I think I am a fairly decent shot, with more than decent equipment.
When testing my new TRG-22 folder at the range with different match ammo, I shot twenty 5 shot groups that day, and the average (measured with calipers) was .588 inches. All shots were taken prone off a bipod and a rear bag.
So, I think it is fair to say that I am a .6 moa shooter. Though occasionally I get lucky and shoot one like this:
5 shots with 168 Gold Medal at 100 yards with an AIAW and Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56 PM2 scope.
I think I am a fairly decent shot, with more than decent equipment.
When testing my new TRG-22 folder at the range with different match ammo, I shot twenty 5 shot groups that day, and the average (measured with calipers) was .588 inches. All shots were taken prone off a bipod and a rear bag.
So, I think it is fair to say that I am a .6 moa shooter. Though occasionally I get lucky and shoot one like this:
5 shots with 168 Gold Medal at 100 yards with an AIAW and Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56 PM2 scope.
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
Most of the shooters at my club who shoot on a regular basis and have decent equipment (rifle and optics) generally shoot in th 1-1.5" range @ 100 yards. Those with rifles like the TRG and AIAW with NF, S&B etc shoot well under 1". a few shoot one whole groups like the previous poster. The weekend warriors, that's another story.
Most of the shooters at my club who shoot on a regular basis and have decent equipment (rifle and optics) generally shoot in th 1-1.5" range @ 100 yards. Those with rifles like the TRG and AIAW with NF, S&B etc shoot well under 1". a few shoot one whole groups like the previous poster. The weekend warriors, that's another story.
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
Smallbore, Where are you shooting? Antelope Club? I never go there since it's only a 100yd range but I think I'm going to go do a little testing out there if you wanna come see some good shooting
Most guys there can't hit the broad side of a pick-up from 100yd it's pretty sad. Every now and then you'll see a guy that knows what he's doing.
You gotta remember, you won't run into too many guys that even know about this site around our area. Most of the guys here know how to shoot, but how often do you run into these guys...Never. The real good guys go down to Manatee. I'd suggest you come on down there if you get a 308 and do some long distance shooting with us. There's a wealth of knowledge out there and it's worth the one hour drive just to learn from the guys, not to mention it's a 1000yd range.
Smallbore, Where are you shooting? Antelope Club? I never go there since it's only a 100yd range but I think I'm going to go do a little testing out there if you wanna come see some good shooting
You gotta remember, you won't run into too many guys that even know about this site around our area. Most of the guys here know how to shoot, but how often do you run into these guys...Never. The real good guys go down to Manatee. I'd suggest you come on down there if you get a 308 and do some long distance shooting with us. There's a wealth of knowledge out there and it's worth the one hour drive just to learn from the guys, not to mention it's a 1000yd range.
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
Last weekend I was fire-forming some new Lapua brass for my .243. I shot 6 groups that all average out to just over 0.50". This was with Sierra HPBT Gamekings. This almost made me sick. My groups were averging 0.30"-0.35" for 6 groups, but with once fired Rem cases. (Range was only 100 yds long) I've shot one group at 0.202". But would I climb up in a treestand with this rifle? 48" long and roughly 13 lbs....you got to be kidding. I have a lightweight .300 Weatherby for that. I can usually get groups around 0.6" with that one. But for a barrel that's 0.550" at the muzzle. Trigger is around 3.5 lbs, 3-9x50 Leupold on top, and I bedded it into a Bell and Carlson Medalist Sporter. Target shooting and hunting are totally different. I practice off hand with my hunting rifle and bench for my target rifle. Early November is always an interesting time at the range. I like to watch the other hunters "sight in" their rifles. They will fire 3-5 times and smile ear to ear hitting 5" within their point of aim. Then they see me target shooting with my .243. They ask what caliber mine is and they laugh. They say "aww, ain't that for 8 year olds or women?" Then they brag about how powerful their rifle is and it "really don't kick that bad." Then we walk out to our targets. They have bullet holes all over a tv box and I have 1/2" groups cutting my point of aim out. Then on our walk back I suggest a .308 over their .300 rem ultra mag. I usually hear "aww it's got more knock down power." Yeah, if you can even hit a deer. They absolutely have no fundamentals just being macho with the most powerful rifle there. Yeah, I shoot a .300 Weatherby Magnum, but I have enough fundamentals down that I feel comfortable with such a rifle. Sometimes I only take my .22LR out, and usually get a 2" groups out of it (100 yds). I guess what I'm saying is, you sound like a pretty good shooter. I'd get a .308 and show the other guys how to shoot. Then reload for it and try not to get addicted!
Last weekend I was fire-forming some new Lapua brass for my .243. I shot 6 groups that all average out to just over 0.50". This was with Sierra HPBT Gamekings. This almost made me sick. My groups were averging 0.30"-0.35" for 6 groups, but with once fired Rem cases. (Range was only 100 yds long) I've shot one group at 0.202". But would I climb up in a treestand with this rifle? 48" long and roughly 13 lbs....you got to be kidding. I have a lightweight .300 Weatherby for that. I can usually get groups around 0.6" with that one. But for a barrel that's 0.550" at the muzzle. Trigger is around 3.5 lbs, 3-9x50 Leupold on top, and I bedded it into a Bell and Carlson Medalist Sporter. Target shooting and hunting are totally different. I practice off hand with my hunting rifle and bench for my target rifle. Early November is always an interesting time at the range. I like to watch the other hunters "sight in" their rifles. They will fire 3-5 times and smile ear to ear hitting 5" within their point of aim. Then they see me target shooting with my .243. They ask what caliber mine is and they laugh. They say "aww, ain't that for 8 year olds or women?" Then they brag about how powerful their rifle is and it "really don't kick that bad." Then we walk out to our targets. They have bullet holes all over a tv box and I have 1/2" groups cutting my point of aim out. Then on our walk back I suggest a .308 over their .300 rem ultra mag. I usually hear "aww it's got more knock down power." Yeah, if you can even hit a deer. They absolutely have no fundamentals just being macho with the most powerful rifle there. Yeah, I shoot a .300 Weatherby Magnum, but I have enough fundamentals down that I feel comfortable with such a rifle. Sometimes I only take my .22LR out, and usually get a 2" groups out of it (100 yds). I guess what I'm saying is, you sound like a pretty good shooter. I'd get a .308 and show the other guys how to shoot. Then reload for it and try not to get addicted!
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
Scott, I aim for about 1/2 and inch at 100 yards. I know the rifle i capable and If i can get it i know im doing my part.
I have also had good groups at 300 and 400 yards in the past. A few weeks ago I had a "clover" group of all holes touching at 300 yards, and I have also acheived a 0.25" group at 375 yards which was my best so far.
So to answer the question, provided you have done load development and your rifle is solid as shoots consistently all the time, if you know it shoots well you should always aim for that.
Also, i friend of mine recently aquired a brand new R700 Synthetic stainless fluted in .308 26" barrel. I did not shoot. At 100 yards he was hitting the target frame constantly and it was shooting randomly. I swapped out his action and barrel and put it into a HS stock i had sitting around. I also had a spare .308 die set I have donated to him and have done some basic load development for him. We currently have the rifle shooting 1" groups at 100 yards, but once we are finished with a ladder and OCW test, im going to push his rifle for at least 1/2 to 3/4 moa.
Hows that book i got you going? Any help?
Scott, I aim for about 1/2 and inch at 100 yards. I know the rifle i capable and If i can get it i know im doing my part.
I have also had good groups at 300 and 400 yards in the past. A few weeks ago I had a "clover" group of all holes touching at 300 yards, and I have also acheived a 0.25" group at 375 yards which was my best so far.
So to answer the question, provided you have done load development and your rifle is solid as shoots consistently all the time, if you know it shoots well you should always aim for that.
Also, i friend of mine recently aquired a brand new R700 Synthetic stainless fluted in .308 26" barrel. I did not shoot. At 100 yards he was hitting the target frame constantly and it was shooting randomly. I swapped out his action and barrel and put it into a HS stock i had sitting around. I also had a spare .308 die set I have donated to him and have done some basic load development for him. We currently have the rifle shooting 1" groups at 100 yards, but once we are finished with a ladder and OCW test, im going to push his rifle for at least 1/2 to 3/4 moa.
Hows that book i got you going? Any help?
Re: What's a good centerfire group?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoreSnake08</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....We have a gentleman at our range who I have nicknamed "PIEPLATE"...he is happy if his groups are the size of a pie plate.....</div></div>
Maybe he's an elephant hunter from the Congo???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoreSnake08</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....We have a gentleman at our range who I have nicknamed "PIEPLATE"...he is happy if his groups are the size of a pie plate.....</div></div>
Maybe he's an elephant hunter from the Congo???
