Can some explain the advantage to the FFP scope?
and why the cost so much more?
and why the cost so much more?
Rifle Scopes Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
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Re: Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
Start here: All articles by Zak Smith.
Intro to High-End LR Optics
Optics for practical LR Shooting
2009 LR Optics Update
That should keep you busy and off the streets for a little while.
Bob
Start here: All articles by Zak Smith.
Intro to High-End LR Optics
Optics for practical LR Shooting
2009 LR Optics Update
That should keep you busy and off the streets for a little while.
Bob
Re: Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
There are pros and cons to them. The reticle grows as you increase the magnification. The advantage to this is in range estimation. You don't need to have the reticle at a specific power for the mil dots to be accurate as with second-focal plane scopes. In addition, if you use the dots for holdover, the same applies: in order for the mil-dot to be accurate, a second focal plane scope must be at a specified magnification to be accurate. The first is accurate at whatever magnification is comfortable for you given the target. The down side is the reticle is very small at low magnification. Consider a wide field of fire where you need to spot targets coming from various directions or moving. You need low magnification to give a wide field of view. In some scopes, the reticle can disappear, especially in a busy background. At the other end, at high magnification, the reticle can be very thick and obscure fine detail, making fine correction difficult. They are expensive because more precision is required to maintain the calibration across the range. And, they are limited in availability, though more are coming to market, now.
There are pros and cons to them. The reticle grows as you increase the magnification. The advantage to this is in range estimation. You don't need to have the reticle at a specific power for the mil dots to be accurate as with second-focal plane scopes. In addition, if you use the dots for holdover, the same applies: in order for the mil-dot to be accurate, a second focal plane scope must be at a specified magnification to be accurate. The first is accurate at whatever magnification is comfortable for you given the target. The down side is the reticle is very small at low magnification. Consider a wide field of fire where you need to spot targets coming from various directions or moving. You need low magnification to give a wide field of view. In some scopes, the reticle can disappear, especially in a busy background. At the other end, at high magnification, the reticle can be very thick and obscure fine detail, making fine correction difficult. They are expensive because more precision is required to maintain the calibration across the range. And, they are limited in availability, though more are coming to market, now.
Re: Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
Some do not like the FFP because the reticle can block out the target when used at higher magnifications. It depends largly on the reticle design and size, some reticles are so busy and wide hash marks that the reticle becomes too much of the field of view.
The reticle hash marks also get smaller at lower magnifications. So a mildot reticle that is usable at 9x FFP is pretty much useless at 3xFFP...it does still have the standard cross hairs so the reticle just appears thicker at the center but the hash marks are so close that you can not deciefer the distance between them.
The nice thing about FFP scopes is that if you use the reticle at 9x and find that the 18" paper target takes up 1 full MIL of the reticle, when you move it to 6x the 18" target will still take up 1 full MIL of the reticle. With a SFP scope if it takes up 1 full MIL at 9x it will take up a queer section of scope at 6x....not 1 full MIL. The SFP scopes normally have 2 power settings that the reticle subtensions are correct for accurate rangefinding.
Best advise is to go find other shooters and experience FFP versus SFP and see how each works.
Some do not like the FFP because the reticle can block out the target when used at higher magnifications. It depends largly on the reticle design and size, some reticles are so busy and wide hash marks that the reticle becomes too much of the field of view.
The reticle hash marks also get smaller at lower magnifications. So a mildot reticle that is usable at 9x FFP is pretty much useless at 3xFFP...it does still have the standard cross hairs so the reticle just appears thicker at the center but the hash marks are so close that you can not deciefer the distance between them.
The nice thing about FFP scopes is that if you use the reticle at 9x and find that the 18" paper target takes up 1 full MIL of the reticle, when you move it to 6x the 18" target will still take up 1 full MIL of the reticle. With a SFP scope if it takes up 1 full MIL at 9x it will take up a queer section of scope at 6x....not 1 full MIL. The SFP scopes normally have 2 power settings that the reticle subtensions are correct for accurate rangefinding.
Best advise is to go find other shooters and experience FFP versus SFP and see how each works.
Re: Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a1-equipment</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why the cost so much more? </div></div>
The real unfair question is why do MIL turrets cost so much more? Generally the FFP was only needed by the skilled shooters that knew and needed high quality rough optics. SFP scopes are cheaper and most hunters just get a Mildot scope to say they have it. And have no clue what to do with it or how to range with it.....so the SFP's are the most common because of the availablity of them for the masses.
They work very well for some people, but for me the SFP just adds one more variation to account for.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a1-equipment</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why the cost so much more? </div></div>
The real unfair question is why do MIL turrets cost so much more? Generally the FFP was only needed by the skilled shooters that knew and needed high quality rough optics. SFP scopes are cheaper and most hunters just get a Mildot scope to say they have it. And have no clue what to do with it or how to range with it.....so the SFP's are the most common because of the availablity of them for the masses.
They work very well for some people, but for me the SFP just adds one more variation to account for.
Re: Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
Thinking of a practical situation, where the targets move and time is a big factor, it saves extremely valuable seconds.
The ideal state is FFP + mil retile + mil adjustment, that way at all magnificaitons, you can correct for a missed shot as soon as you see it's impact...
Thinking of a practical situation, where the targets move and time is a big factor, it saves extremely valuable seconds.
The ideal state is FFP + mil retile + mil adjustment, that way at all magnificaitons, you can correct for a missed shot as soon as you see it's impact...
Re: Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunterkiwi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The ideal state is FFP + mil retile + mil adjustment, that way at all magnificaitons, you can correct for a missed shot as soon as you see it's impact...
</div></div>
Bingo - I honestly think think THIS is the REAL advantage to FFP more so than the ranging at any magnification aspect. I use it to range things simply as an exercise for practice. Otherwise I use a LRF if I really want the actual range to shoot.
But the ability to correct your 2nd shot by seeing the 1st impact to me is priceless and worth every penny extra that an FFP costs.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunterkiwi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The ideal state is FFP + mil retile + mil adjustment, that way at all magnificaitons, you can correct for a missed shot as soon as you see it's impact...
</div></div>
Bingo - I honestly think think THIS is the REAL advantage to FFP more so than the ranging at any magnification aspect. I use it to range things simply as an exercise for practice. Otherwise I use a LRF if I really want the actual range to shoot.
But the ability to correct your 2nd shot by seeing the 1st impact to me is priceless and worth every penny extra that an FFP costs.
Re: Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunterkiwi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The ideal state is FFP + mil retile + mil adjustment, that way at all magnificaitons, you can correct for a missed shot as soon as you see it's impact...
</div></div>
Bingo - I honestly think think THIS is the REAL advantage to FFP more so than the ranging at any magnification aspect. I use it to range things simply as an exercise for practice. Otherwise I use a LRF if I really want the actual range to shoot.
But the ability to correct your 2nd shot by seeing the 1st impact to me is priceless and worth every penny extra that an FFP costs. </div></div>
Reaper's right. Wind hold corrections at ANY magnification = <span style="font-weight: bold">SPEED</span>. When I had an SFP scope I either had to think FAST or correct on the *next* shot for bad math. FFP is EASY. 1.5 mil right hold = 1.5 mil right. Any magnification. PERIOD.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunterkiwi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The ideal state is FFP + mil retile + mil adjustment, that way at all magnificaitons, you can correct for a missed shot as soon as you see it's impact...
</div></div>
Bingo - I honestly think think THIS is the REAL advantage to FFP more so than the ranging at any magnification aspect. I use it to range things simply as an exercise for practice. Otherwise I use a LRF if I really want the actual range to shoot.
But the ability to correct your 2nd shot by seeing the 1st impact to me is priceless and worth every penny extra that an FFP costs. </div></div>
Reaper's right. Wind hold corrections at ANY magnification = <span style="font-weight: bold">SPEED</span>. When I had an SFP scope I either had to think FAST or correct on the *next* shot for bad math. FFP is EASY. 1.5 mil right hold = 1.5 mil right. Any magnification. PERIOD.
John
Re: Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
+1 easy correction quickly. This is the single deciding factor for me. Spot it in the scope and dial it as called.
+1 easy correction quickly. This is the single deciding factor for me. Spot it in the scope and dial it as called.
Re: Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
Tobe fair, if you see your own hit, you can adjust your next round with any scope. Where the FFP shines in this reguard is if someone else sees your hit and calls the correction.
Wind holds are the biggest advantage to a FFP, followed by the above example as well as movers. Ranging is an advantage, but not much of one.
Tobe fair, if you see your own hit, you can adjust your next round with any scope. Where the FFP shines in this reguard is if someone else sees your hit and calls the correction.
Wind holds are the biggest advantage to a FFP, followed by the above example as well as movers. Ranging is an advantage, but not much of one.
Re: Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
The real advantage in my mind (an application) is that I can hold over/under and lead for wind/movers accurately ANYTIME!
The correction argument is nice, but I prefer first round hits wherever possible, and not having to check that my scope is dialed to the proper magnification to hold and not miss is imperative.
The real advantage in my mind (an application) is that I can hold over/under and lead for wind/movers accurately ANYTIME!
The correction argument is nice, but I prefer first round hits wherever possible, and not having to check that my scope is dialed to the proper magnification to hold and not miss is imperative.
Re: Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
The advantage of FFP is for engaging multiple targets at multiple distances under time constraints.
If you are on a static range working at a single distance using only one magnification there is no real advantage, so save your money.
FFP gives no advantage to placing fast follow-up shots at a single known distance. And it doesn't really make it harder to hold wind on a static known distance target either.
Some people say that FFP scopes demonstrate less POI shift when changing magnification, but I haven't found that to be true with my SFP scopes.
I haven't shot an FFP scope at any match this year, including for movers at Reade or the 'Cup, and I don't plan to switch to FFP any time soon. It's just not really necessary.
The advantage of FFP is for engaging multiple targets at multiple distances under time constraints.
If you are on a static range working at a single distance using only one magnification there is no real advantage, so save your money.
FFP gives no advantage to placing fast follow-up shots at a single known distance. And it doesn't really make it harder to hold wind on a static known distance target either.
Some people say that FFP scopes demonstrate less POI shift when changing magnification, but I haven't found that to be true with my SFP scopes.
I haven't shot an FFP scope at any match this year, including for movers at Reade or the 'Cup, and I don't plan to switch to FFP any time soon. It's just not really necessary.
Re: Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
This time of year with all the mirage, with a 20X, 24X, 25X, etc scope it's a pain if you have to be on max power to hold for wind.
This time of year with all the mirage, with a 20X, 24X, 25X, etc scope it's a pain if you have to be on max power to hold for wind.
Re: Whats the advantage to FFP scopes
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The advantage of FFP is for engaging multiple targets at multiple distances under time constraints.
If you are on a static range working at a single distance using only one magnification there is no real advantage, so save your money.
FFP gives no advantage to placing fast follow-up shots at a single known distance. And it doesn't really make it harder to hold wind on a static known distance target either.
Some people say that FFP scopes demonstrate less POI shift when changing magnification, but I haven't found that to be true with my SFP scopes.
I haven't shot an FFP scope at any match this year, including for movers at Reade or the 'Cup, and I don't plan to switch to FFP any time soon. It's just not really necessary. </div></div>
Right on the money!
With any "square range" KD shooting, there is no advantage to a FFP reticle. I'll even state that a FFP could be a disadvantage in certain situations. The FFP reticle can get thick enough to reduce precision on target.
The FFP is an advantage at multiple distance or UKD targets under a tight time constraint. Not worrying about what magnification you're scope is set while holding off or ranging is an advantage.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The advantage of FFP is for engaging multiple targets at multiple distances under time constraints.
If you are on a static range working at a single distance using only one magnification there is no real advantage, so save your money.
FFP gives no advantage to placing fast follow-up shots at a single known distance. And it doesn't really make it harder to hold wind on a static known distance target either.
Some people say that FFP scopes demonstrate less POI shift when changing magnification, but I haven't found that to be true with my SFP scopes.
I haven't shot an FFP scope at any match this year, including for movers at Reade or the 'Cup, and I don't plan to switch to FFP any time soon. It's just not really necessary. </div></div>
Right on the money!
With any "square range" KD shooting, there is no advantage to a FFP reticle. I'll even state that a FFP could be a disadvantage in certain situations. The FFP reticle can get thick enough to reduce precision on target.
The FFP is an advantage at multiple distance or UKD targets under a tight time constraint. Not worrying about what magnification you're scope is set while holding off or ranging is an advantage.
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