CCW just seems so counter-intuitive. Can someone explain why most scopes come with CCW as standard rather than CW? This is killing me looking for a S&B or Premier in CW.
Rifle Scopes What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
- Thread starter Johnny Sasaki
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Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
Typically I use my left hand to dial my elevation. When I dial it up its just feels more comfortable and natural to turn the knobs ccw. Is that reason why they make and why people prefer ccw? I have no f*ckin' idea.
Typically I use my left hand to dial my elevation. When I dial it up its just feels more comfortable and natural to turn the knobs ccw. Is that reason why they make and why people prefer ccw? I have no f*ckin' idea.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
I use my left hand for elevation adjustment also. It just feel a lot more natural being CCW. Especially when using larger knobs as it is easier to rotate with little hand movement and you can use your thumb to fine tune your adjustments. CW you have to manipulate your hand quite a bit on large turrets like Premiers or the USO EREK. But with CCW it is just a lot less movement and more natural movement with your thumb and fingers.
I use my left hand for elevation adjustment also. It just feel a lot more natural being CCW. Especially when using larger knobs as it is easier to rotate with little hand movement and you can use your thumb to fine tune your adjustments. CW you have to manipulate your hand quite a bit on large turrets like Premiers or the USO EREK. But with CCW it is just a lot less movement and more natural movement with your thumb and fingers.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jerseymike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Typically I use my left hand to dial my elevation. When I dial it up its just feels more comfortable and natural to turn the knobs ccw. Is that reason why they make and why people prefer ccw? I have no f*ckin' idea. </div></div>
Yea, but doesn't using your right hand make more sense? Don't you use the left hand to support the stock for elevation? All the right hand does is pull the trigger. So if you use your left hand for the turrets you have to re-acquire the target, but the right hand doesn't support anything so as long as you don't contort your whole body the target should still be relatively in view, no?
What's more, not only does the CW readout make more sense beings the numbers are going from left to right like they should, but you can also manipulate the windage knob with the right hand that you couldn't do with your left anyway.
Just seems more logical to me, and if you use your right hand it would be the reverse feeling in your hand, so CW with the right would feel the same as CCW with the left. Catch my drift?
So basically I have no idea why anyone would want a CCW, yet that's all I ever seem to see with a few rare exceptions.
I saw some Hensoldts and a 5-25 S&B on the EuroOptic website (with the old turrets no less) for like $4200 for whatever reason. Yet the new one with CCW and locking turrets with a dark earth coating was $3700. Why the price difference for what seemed to just be CW on the OLDER model?
/rant
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jerseymike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Typically I use my left hand to dial my elevation. When I dial it up its just feels more comfortable and natural to turn the knobs ccw. Is that reason why they make and why people prefer ccw? I have no f*ckin' idea. </div></div>
Yea, but doesn't using your right hand make more sense? Don't you use the left hand to support the stock for elevation? All the right hand does is pull the trigger. So if you use your left hand for the turrets you have to re-acquire the target, but the right hand doesn't support anything so as long as you don't contort your whole body the target should still be relatively in view, no?
What's more, not only does the CW readout make more sense beings the numbers are going from left to right like they should, but you can also manipulate the windage knob with the right hand that you couldn't do with your left anyway.
Just seems more logical to me, and if you use your right hand it would be the reverse feeling in your hand, so CW with the right would feel the same as CCW with the left. Catch my drift?
So basically I have no idea why anyone would want a CCW, yet that's all I ever seem to see with a few rare exceptions.
I saw some Hensoldts and a 5-25 S&B on the EuroOptic website (with the old turrets no less) for like $4200 for whatever reason. Yet the new one with CCW and locking turrets with a dark earth coating was $3700. Why the price difference for what seemed to just be CW on the OLDER model?
/rant
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
Actually, I take everything back now. My theory only works for prone and bench shooting. If you were in any other situation it would be more beneficial to operate the elevation turret with the left hand and a CCW.
Damn, I just had an argument with my self,.....and WON! lol.
Actually, I take everything back now. My theory only works for prone and bench shooting. If you were in any other situation it would be more beneficial to operate the elevation turret with the left hand and a CCW.
Damn, I just had an argument with my self,.....and WON! lol.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
If youre laying prone, you can support the rifle with your trigger hand via your regular shooting grip while your left hand manipulates the turrets. Tis better to have the trigger hand near the trigger at all times in case a shot develops quickly (hunting or what not).
Theres more than one way and place to support the rifle with your left hand, and situations in field conditions where you wont be able to use your hand under the rear of the stock anyway.
Trigger hand should be near the trigger, not dinking around with other stuff.
If youre laying prone, you can support the rifle with your trigger hand via your regular shooting grip while your left hand manipulates the turrets. Tis better to have the trigger hand near the trigger at all times in case a shot develops quickly (hunting or what not).
Theres more than one way and place to support the rifle with your left hand, and situations in field conditions where you wont be able to use your hand under the rear of the stock anyway.
Trigger hand should be near the trigger, not dinking around with other stuff.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
That's all fine and good for bipod shooting.
But when I'm slung up, it's the right hand to fiddle with the scope.
Elevation doesn't seem counter-intuitive for me. It's the windage that screws me up, no matter which hand is free. Clockwise on wind should move impact right!
Anyone who's shooting a service rifle on the side has to shift gears with an optic or risk totally blowing a shot.
That's all fine and good for bipod shooting.
But when I'm slung up, it's the right hand to fiddle with the scope.
Elevation doesn't seem counter-intuitive for me. It's the windage that screws me up, no matter which hand is free. Clockwise on wind should move impact right!
Anyone who's shooting a service rifle on the side has to shift gears with an optic or risk totally blowing a shot.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
For many years CCW was the standard in the Western Hemisphere and CW was something used in the Eastern Hemisphere. I don't know the history of the why but I do know that is how it is/was.
Most American shooters were exposed to CCW and therefore that became the norm. The older Europeon scopes were CW and an American shooter had to "think" about how to adjust. Now most high end scopes are offered both ways but here in the states you will find predominantly CCW scopes.
Thanks,
Paul
PS: I think it has something to do with moving POI vs. POA but I could be wrong. David S? You have a reason?
For many years CCW was the standard in the Western Hemisphere and CW was something used in the Eastern Hemisphere. I don't know the history of the why but I do know that is how it is/was.
Most American shooters were exposed to CCW and therefore that became the norm. The older Europeon scopes were CW and an American shooter had to "think" about how to adjust. Now most high end scopes are offered both ways but here in the states you will find predominantly CCW scopes.
Thanks,
Paul
PS: I think it has something to do with moving POI vs. POA but I could be wrong. David S? You have a reason?
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
most American shooters are used to ccw adjustments, if you would prefer cw, it's available, heck i have one in stock, but ccw is more the norm for american shooters.
most American shooters are used to ccw adjustments, if you would prefer cw, it's available, heck i have one in stock, but ccw is more the norm for american shooters.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
What Jay said but really it's a non issue. I have both and I turn the knob the way the numbers get bigger. Doesn't matter if it's CW or CCW and neither is faster or easier to use.
What Jay said but really it's a non issue. I have both and I turn the knob the way the numbers get bigger. Doesn't matter if it's CW or CCW and neither is faster or easier to use.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What Jay said but really it's a non issue. I have both and I turn the knob the way the numbers get bigger. Doesn't matter if it's CW or CCW and neither is faster or easier to use. </div></div>
couldn't agree more.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What Jay said but really it's a non issue. I have both and I turn the knob the way the numbers get bigger. Doesn't matter if it's CW or CCW and neither is faster or easier to use. </div></div>
couldn't agree more.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
For me I think of the adjustments as screws so CCW on the erector raises the POI and CCW on the windage moves it right. (CCW screws it out, CW screws it in) That's actually very intuitive for me.
When I'm laying behind he rifle shooting F class I almost never look at the turrets when I dial, I just count clicks.
I've scored for a guy who was accustomed to irons and went the wrong way several times in a relay. He was having a bad day.
For me I think of the adjustments as screws so CCW on the erector raises the POI and CCW on the windage moves it right. (CCW screws it out, CW screws it in) That's actually very intuitive for me.
When I'm laying behind he rifle shooting F class I almost never look at the turrets when I dial, I just count clicks.
I've scored for a guy who was accustomed to irons and went the wrong way several times in a relay. He was having a bad day.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
I agreed with XTR. It just seems intuitive. Most of us use right hand screws in our daily life. When you turn a right hand screw CW it moves inward and or down and vice versa. Turn the elevation knob CW (right hand screw) and it moves down (or in)and moves the point of impact correspondingly. Just seems logical. In fact I don't understand why the (US) system is even called CCW?
I agreed with XTR. It just seems intuitive. Most of us use right hand screws in our daily life. When you turn a right hand screw CW it moves inward and or down and vice versa. Turn the elevation knob CW (right hand screw) and it moves down (or in)and moves the point of impact correspondingly. Just seems logical. In fact I don't understand why the (US) system is even called CCW?
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
Its easy. Which way duo you turn a screw to make it go up...how about down.
In truth, its what you get used to. It becomes instinctive.
Its easy. Which way duo you turn a screw to make it go up...how about down.
In truth, its what you get used to. It becomes instinctive.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the_fng</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're behind the rifle and lying prone it's much harder to use your right hand (if you're right handed) to adjust the scope. </div></div>
This... Dial elevation with left myself, and I don't dial windage, so the right side of the scope is a good spot for that adjustment in my world.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the_fng</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're behind the rifle and lying prone it's much harder to use your right hand (if you're right handed) to adjust the scope. </div></div>
This... Dial elevation with left myself, and I don't dial windage, so the right side of the scope is a good spot for that adjustment in my world.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
I have and use both. I think CCW elevation is more intuitive because of the bolt analogy, but I think CW windage is more intuitive because if you were looking at the knob straight on, you would rotate the 12 O'clock position to the right for right, and to the left for left.
I have and use both. I think CCW elevation is more intuitive because of the bolt analogy, but I think CW windage is more intuitive because if you were looking at the knob straight on, you would rotate the 12 O'clock position to the right for right, and to the left for left.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For me I think of the adjustments as screws so CCW on the erector raises the POI and CCW on the windage moves it right. (CCW screws it out, CW screws it in) That's actually very intuitive for me.
</div></div>
Thats!
It is exactly how I think and CCW allows you, instintively, adjust the scope without looking at any numbers (if is dark, for example). Just think of the knobs as scews and the directions of screws is where the point of impact goes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For me I think of the adjustments as screws so CCW on the erector raises the POI and CCW on the windage moves it right. (CCW screws it out, CW screws it in) That's actually very intuitive for me.
</div></div>
Thats!
It is exactly how I think and CCW allows you, instintively, adjust the scope without looking at any numbers (if is dark, for example). Just think of the knobs as scews and the directions of screws is where the point of impact goes.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's called training. Either can be used if you train with them. It's a software issue. Not hardware.</div></div>
+1
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's called training. Either can be used if you train with them. It's a software issue. Not hardware.</div></div>
+1
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just get a Horus reticle and forget about it
</div></div>
+1
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just get a Horus reticle and forget about it
+1
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Plange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">David S? You have a reason?</div></div>
My pet theory is that CCW is just the direction you end up with if you build a scope with knobs that move in and out of the body when turning them, and cut the usual right-hand threads. Most older German scopes seem to have adjustment knobs that only rotate, with the threaded piece that moves the erector being internal. If you use right-hand threads with that mechanism, the scope will end up being CW, and I suspect that people just didn't like cutting left-hand threads.
So I guess the direction is just a result of different ways to build the knobs, together with the desire to stick to the standard thread direction . From that point, it's mostly a matter of being used to one direction. Personally, I like CCW knobs better because when I turn the elevation knob with my left hand, the knob turns into the direction where my thumb points, which is more ergonomical, and I can see more of the left side of the elevation knob with my left eye, sio that's where the numbers I'm interested in should be. And I like to think of moving my POI with adjustment screws as has been mentioned here.
The funny thing is that CCW knobs that only rotate (which is beneficial because it doesn't expose the delicate threads to impacts when the knobs are bumped) require left-hand threads internally.
As to this being a "software issue", sure, it is. But try using a vehicle where you have to turn the steering wheel left to make a right turn, and do a test ride through the city. It may be a software issue, but it will most likely result in a veritable hardware crash.
Some things just tend to become semi-hardwired, and switching to a different system becomes foolish or even dangerous at that point if any kind of stress is involved.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Plange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">David S? You have a reason?</div></div>
My pet theory is that CCW is just the direction you end up with if you build a scope with knobs that move in and out of the body when turning them, and cut the usual right-hand threads. Most older German scopes seem to have adjustment knobs that only rotate, with the threaded piece that moves the erector being internal. If you use right-hand threads with that mechanism, the scope will end up being CW, and I suspect that people just didn't like cutting left-hand threads.
So I guess the direction is just a result of different ways to build the knobs, together with the desire to stick to the standard thread direction . From that point, it's mostly a matter of being used to one direction. Personally, I like CCW knobs better because when I turn the elevation knob with my left hand, the knob turns into the direction where my thumb points, which is more ergonomical, and I can see more of the left side of the elevation knob with my left eye, sio that's where the numbers I'm interested in should be. And I like to think of moving my POI with adjustment screws as has been mentioned here.
The funny thing is that CCW knobs that only rotate (which is beneficial because it doesn't expose the delicate threads to impacts when the knobs are bumped) require left-hand threads internally.
As to this being a "software issue", sure, it is. But try using a vehicle where you have to turn the steering wheel left to make a right turn, and do a test ride through the city. It may be a software issue, but it will most likely result in a veritable hardware crash.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Plange said:As to this being a "software issue", sure, it is. But try using a vehicle where you have to turn the steering wheel left to make a right turn, and do a test ride through the city. It may be a software issue, but it will most likely result in a veritable hardware crash.Some things just tend to become semi-hardwired, and switching to a different system becomes foolish or even dangerous at that point if any kind of stress is involved. </div></div>
OMG,what a connection.
I've been at a couple of events where there was a guy with a bicycle that had the handle bars geared in the head tube to turn the wheel the opposite direction. Gave out prizes if you could ride a short distance in a straight line w/o crashing.
Talk about entertaining to watch. (I managed it on my 2nd try)
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Plange said:As to this being a "software issue", sure, it is. But try using a vehicle where you have to turn the steering wheel left to make a right turn, and do a test ride through the city. It may be a software issue, but it will most likely result in a veritable hardware crash.Some things just tend to become semi-hardwired, and switching to a different system becomes foolish or even dangerous at that point if any kind of stress is involved. </div></div>
OMG,what a connection.
I've been at a couple of events where there was a guy with a bicycle that had the handle bars geared in the head tube to turn the wheel the opposite direction. Gave out prizes if you could ride a short distance in a straight line w/o crashing.
Talk about entertaining to watch. (I managed it on my 2nd try) </div></div>
That would be hilarious to watch
I think it's easier for some people to think about certain things whereas another person is weaker in that same area. Rob and yourself are obviously strong in this aspect. I'm not, I guaranty I'd loose points in a match setting with CW knobs by dialing the wrong way by accident.
Me, once I learn something it's just about set in stone, for instance with CCW knobs. Under stress (match setting) I don't want to think about doing a task/s differently, my mind is on auto pilot about the task/s. There's so many other things I'm trying to think about already that need to get sorted out in my head as is.
Example.
20 Years ago a city planner got the bright idea of reversing our one way streets downtown. It was crazy how many accidents and road rage incidents we had. It took myself and most of the people I know that were raised here years to get used to it. Something we didn't even think about now required mental attention.
Another +1 for H reticles. They save time as well. I still dial as the occasion suites though.
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sojer64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is the S&B used by the military CW or CCW? </div></div>
USMC scope is CCW
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sojer64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is the S&B used by the military CW or CCW? </div></div>
USMC scope is CCW
Re: What's the deal with CCW? It doesn't make sense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For me I think of the adjustments as screws so CCW on the erector raises the POI and CCW on the windage moves it right. (CCW screws it out, CW screws it in) That's actually very intuitive for me.
When I'm laying behind he rifle shooting F class I almost never look at the turrets when I dial, I just count clicks.
I've scored for a guy who was accustomed to irons and went the wrong way several times in a relay. He was having a bad day.</div></div>
Exactly. CW just messes me up. KISS.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For me I think of the adjustments as screws so CCW on the erector raises the POI and CCW on the windage moves it right. (CCW screws it out, CW screws it in) That's actually very intuitive for me.
When I'm laying behind he rifle shooting F class I almost never look at the turrets when I dial, I just count clicks.
I've scored for a guy who was accustomed to irons and went the wrong way several times in a relay. He was having a bad day.</div></div>
Exactly. CW just messes me up. KISS.
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