What's wrong with my recoil management/shooting position?

sonichanxiao

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After watch quite a few videos about recoil management, griping, shooting position and practice hundreds rounds in the range, I still found shooting a 308win without muzzle brake, the point of aim after the shoot would be 8-10mils left compare to where I aim before. If lucky maybe 6-8mils, I always shoot in prone position. The bipod did jump to the left a bit(less than half of a finger width).

For firing hand grip and shooting position, I follow what Frank @lowlight mentioned in his video: pull the rifle straight backwards to your body's shoulder pocket using the same amount of force like the weight of your rifle with 90degree on your trigger finger.

@Rocketmandb has some great videos to explain the science behind the rifle during recoil: I followed his conclusions by placing my body perpendicular with the rifle and use a soft shoulder to load the bipod forwards.

And recently I tried what Scott Satterlee's method mentioned, move to the left side if the rifle shifts to the left under recoil.


Not sure what I did wrong?
If it is because I was pushing the rifle stock to right with my cheek, how should I rest my head to the cheek piece on the stock? I mean, as a right hand shooter, don't we always bend our neck to the right a bit so at least the right eye(if that's your dominated one) can get behind the scope and see the target and that would always be somewhat amount of force applied to the stock towards the right side with your cheek bone, right? I don't see there is any other way or force I can apply to the stock towards left to cancel out the force to the right.

Any input or suggestions would be appreciated.
 
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sonichanxiao

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Everyone is different,

Equipment matters,

We can't see what you are doing so unless you post a video, we'd all be guessing

Could be 1 out of 10 things or worse,
Thank you Frank.

Just manage to make a couple of videos captured from my 6 and 4 o'clock direction. Not sure if anything I did was obviously wrong.

From the back:

From the side, after few shots, the bipod leg moved about half inch to the left, can tell from the multi-cam mark on the mat.
 
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  • Your way too high and narrow IMO. Your not doing step 1 which is to connect yourself to the ground. Your connecting the rifle to the ground and then connecting yourself to the rifle. That’s backwards. Connect yourself, your core, to the ground and then pull the rifle into your shoulder.

    Compare your position with mine. Mines not perfect but look at how wide I am vs you. Watch how I first connect to the ground. My feet/hips shift to get on target before the first shot. After that there is no more shifting because the rifle is part of me and it can’t move me to a new poison. You’re having to readjust after every shot because your riding the rifle and it’s moving around underneath you.

    Big props for taking the brake off though. That’s exactly what you need to do to learn. Guys toss a brake on and shoot some groups and say they’ve got fundamentals. You’re doing it right, just keep learning.
     

    sonichanxiao

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    To me it looks like you’re rolling your shoulders forward and it looks like your left shoulder is in front of your right. Relax your shoulders and have them square. You’re also moving after every shot. “Keep your face on the gun” Phil Velayo.
    Thank you. So I am guessing, it is because my body looks like having a curve when watch from the back right?
    I am not sure about shoulder, maybe I got a short arm, to reach the rear bag and place under the butt-stock, I might need to move my left arm bit more closer to the body. I will try to make sure my left shoulder is at the same line with my right one next time. Thanks for your suggestion.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Several things (I’m sure there’s others, just first glance).

    First video, you’re not straight behind rifle. You’re twisted up and also have your head rolled over.

    Second video, you’re pushing/rolling your shoulder forward and it also appears to be a heavy load on the bipod on that lip. You do *not* need a lip or edge to load a small amount of slack. You’re liking tensing up and giving the rifle nowhere to move which causes the big hope.

    Red line is what you’re doing. Green line is what you want:

    EA2C5D91-1D0E-4D7E-A996-95D6DE6ACB7D.jpeg
     

    sonichanxiao

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    Your way too high and narrow IMO. Your not doing step 1 which is to connect yourself to the ground. Your connecting the rifle to the ground and then connecting yourself to the rifle. That’s backwards. Connect yourself, your core, to the ground and then pull the rifle into your shoulder.

    Compare your position with mine. Mines not perfect but look at how wide I am vs you. Watch how I first connect to the ground. My feet/hips shift to get on target before the first shot. After that there is no more shifting because the rifle is part of me and it can’t move me to a new poison. You’re having to readjust after every shot because your riding the rifle and it’s moving around underneath you.

    Big props for taking the brake off though. That’s exactly what you need to do to learn. Guys toss a brake on and shoot some groups and say they’ve got fundamentals. You’re doing it right, just keep learning.
    Thank you and really appreciated for your video demo.

    I am not sure if I am too high, I think we use the same bipod and I extend the leg by one click from the shortest. I found if keep the bipod in the lowest setting, I am bending my short neck up to look forward, which is bit pain after probably 10-20 shots. Probably because I shoot on a bench in prone instead of on the ground? I know my legs were not stretching out because of the size of the bench. And the target is actually about the same height or could be lower than where I was.

    But I got what you mean, I will try to shoot from ground next time and see if that makes any improvement.

    Thank you sir.
     

    sonichanxiao

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    Several things (I’m sure there’s others, just first glance).

    First video, you’re not straight behind rifle. You’re twisted up and also have your head rolled over.

    Second video, you’re pushing/rolling your shoulder forward and it also appears to be a heavy load on the bipod on that lip. You do *not* need a lip or edge to load a small amount of slack. You’re liking tensing up and giving the rifle nowhere to move which causes the big hope.

    Red line is what you’re doing. Green line is what you want:

    View attachment 7576786
    Thank you sir. Good to know my mistakes.

    I will provide some feedback after my next range visit. Really appreciated your comments.
     

    lowlight

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    I wouldn't say you are too high, the height looks fine, the narrow is close, the right arm is wrong and your wrist is bent, so maybe if you bring your elbows out a bit more natural you'll drop one notch on the bipod, but height wise you look okay initially.

    Also the trigger control is contributing, with all the fidgeting and movement, ya, you are not consistent at all, the tapping and jerking of the trigger is pulling the rifle to the right. You can see your recoil pulse, it follows right and bows your body

    You need to index down from feet to chest and not contort your position like you are doing... what they are seeing is your hips are left, because you compromised from the prone vs indexing correctly.

    Each shot is definitely different, it's about putting all the elements together, vs using a different element during a different shot, like everything is there, just not being used at the same time
     

    sonichanxiao

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    I wouldn't say you are too high, the height looks fine, the narrow is close, the right arm is wrong and your wrist is bent, so maybe if you bring your elbows out a bit more natural you'll drop one notch on the bipod, but height wise you look okay initially.

    Also the trigger control is contributing, with all the fidgeting and movement, ya, you are not consistent at all, the tapping and jerking of the trigger is pulling the rifle to the right. You can see your recoil pulse, it follows right and bows your body

    You need to index down from feet to chest and not contort your position like you are doing... what they are seeing is your hips are left, because you compromised from the prone vs indexing correctly.

    Each shot is definitely different, it's about putting all the elements together, vs using a different element during a different shot, like everything is there, just not being used at the same time
    Thank you very much Frank. I will do more practice with your suggestions.
     

    Precision Underground

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  • Thank you and really appreciated for your video demo.

    I am not sure if I am too high, I think we use the same bipod and I extend the leg by one click from the shortest. I found if keep the bipod in the lowest setting, I am bending my short neck up to look forward, which is bit pain after probably 10-20 shots. Probably because I shoot on a bench in prone instead of on the ground? I know my legs were not stretching out because of the size of the bench. And the target is actually about the same height or could be lower than where I was.

    But I got what you mean, I will try to shoot from ground next time and see if that makes any improvement.

    Thank you sir.

    I don’t mean high on the bipod I mean your elbows are up under you making you high and narrow. Bipod notches can be deceiving as it looks like you’re on an upslope there. That can be the same as being 3-4 notches out if that’s the case.

    Definitely don’t get so low that you have to bend your neck down. What I do is use my back muscles to set my height. Lay face down flat on the ground in a straight line. Use your back muscles to lift your head and shoulders up to a comfortable position, like a reverse sit-up. You’ll feel your core press into the ground when you do this.

    At that point you’ll still be straight and you’ll be upright enough to pull the rifle right in front of your face so you won’t need to roll your head over. Right now your letting the rifle decide your position. That’s a good thing if you have a good position. That’s not a good thing if you literally use the rifle as the base of your position. Use the rifle as an alignment tool so you know where to lay and at what angle. Don’t try to put the rifle on target and then mount up on it. Put your body on target and then connect the rifle to it.

    Did I mention I love seeing a guy take the brake off and do work?? 👊🏻 If you’re in the US Pm me and I’ll send you a rear bag. If your out of country I’ll still send you one as long as shipping isn’t ridic expensive.
     

    Graywolf.260

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    Another thing, it looks like your cheek pressure on the stock may be too much and also not consistent, your head sometimes moves a fair bit after the shot. This could contribute to the leftward jump, you may want to try reducing pressure.
     
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    Slab74

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    I’m a nobody that does not know anything, but I can relate to you fighting your head position behind your rifle. Have you tried low profile muffs? I had to go with custom fit ear plugs, especially with my black guns. But to be fair, I have a giant head, my hat size is 7 7/8. The video from the side just reminded me of my struggles with standard size hearing protection. And do everything else that was posted before I added my $.02.
     

    Precision Underground

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  • Another thing, it looks like your cheek pressure on the stock may be too much and also not consistent, your head sometimes moves a fair bit after the shot. This could contribute to the leftward jump, you may want to try reducing pressure.
    Cheek pressure is a factor but it’s a result not a cause IMO. The rifle is not connected at his shoulder so he has to use cheek pressure to find stability/connection. If you connect yourself to the earth then connect the rifle to you there’s no need for excessive cheek
    pressure. To control recoil you’ve got to use your body as the conduit between the rifle and the ground. A lot of guys use the rear bag as the conduit. This can work with little to no recoil but taking the brake off will shine light on lax fundamentals.
     
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    308pirate

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    @sonichanxiao what's your rifle's length of pull? I found a noticeable improvement in the ease of getting and staying square behind the rifle by shortening mine.

    Your shoulders being at an angle to the rifle leads me to think your LOP might be too long.
     
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    Ironman308

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    Is the rifle in your shoulder pocket? I like to practice recoil management with a 308 without the break. I found that, for me, the rifle was settling into my shoulder pocket and the recoil was shifting the rifle to the left. A slight rotation of the rifle gave me better results. Lots of good suggestion from shooters and instructors. Try one thing at a time so you don’t overload your brain.
     
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    sonichanxiao

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    @sonichanxiao what's your rifle's length of pull? I found a noticeable improvement in the ease of getting and staying square behind the rifle by shortening mine.

    Your shoulders being at an angle to the rifle leads me to think your LOP might be too long.
    Just measured it is about 13 3/4inch, i didn't add any padding, so i guess that's default for the T3X Tac A1.

    Actually I thought the LOP might be short for me. if I want to extend my right elbow to be wider. I found I need to bend my wrist like 60-70degrees angle from the rifle and hard to support my body weight, which after a while, my right forearm will start getting sore while pulling the rifle back to myself. I was thinking adding some padding to see if that would make any difference.
     

    308pirate

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    Just measured it is about 13 3/4inch, i didn't add any padding, so i guess that's default for the T3X Tac A1.

    Actually I thought the LOP might be short for me. if I want to extend my right elbow to be wider. I found I need to bend my wrist like 60-70degrees angle from the rifle and hard to support my body weight, which after a while, my right forearm will start getting sore while pulling the rifle back to myself. I was thinking adding some padding to see if that would make any difference.

    If the rifle's LOP is forcing your shoulders to be at anything other than a right angle to the bore centerline, it doesn't matter how comfortable your wrist is.

    Also, not sure why you're supporting your body weight on your wrist and or elbow. That sounds like part of the problem.

    Think about it.

    You are most definitely crooked behind the rifle. I'm pointing out factors that contribute.
     
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    Precision Underground

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  • Just measured it is about 13 3/4inch, i didn't add any padding, so i guess that's default for the T3X Tac A1.

    Actually I thought the LOP might be short for me. if I want to extend my right elbow to be wider. I found I need to bend my wrist like 60-70degrees angle from the rifle and hard to support my body weight, which after a while, my right forearm will start getting sore while pulling the rifle back to myself. I was thinking adding some padding to see if that would make any difference.

    I use almost a 15” LOP so everyone is different. You can see in the video I’m straight and square. I do have long arms and a long neck though.
    05C5D70F-533A-44C1-9BFC-707DCCDF0BE5.jpeg

    On your elbow comment- your elbow shouldn’t be supporting your body weight(mine shouldn’t be anyway). That’s why you are narrow IMO. Get your elbows out from under you and get your core on the ground. Use your back muscles to get high enough to address the rifle. At that point you can just put the rifle in front of your face.
     

    sonichanxiao

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    After trying to fix the issues everyone pointed out, I added some spacer padding to extend my length of pull for about an inch which feels more confortable when extend my right elbow out. And I think the scope was positioned slightly towards the muzzle, so my body was pushing the rifle forward to avoid seeing the dark ring through the scope. I moved back about 1/4 inch and feel much better in terms of position and linking with the rifle. Will record some video when go to the range next time.

    Thank you again.
     
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    DJL2

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    I was just thinking about posting more or less the same thing. This is a pretty beguiling topic for me - and the vast majority of my shooting life has been bladed behind rifles with my hand on the fore end, so this is a "new" skill set for me. I need to take the brake off again.

    Pretty mind blowing to watch someone handle a .300 NM w/ greater ease than I can run my .30-06 (or my 6.5 CM, for that matter).
     

    Precision Underground

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  • I was just thinking about posting more or less the same thing. This is a pretty beguiling topic for me - and the vast majority of my shooting life has been bladed behind rifles with my hand on the fore end, so this is a "new" skill set for me. I need to take the brake off again.

    Pretty mind blowing to watch someone handle a .300 NM w/ greater ease than I can run my .30-06 (or my 6.5 CM, for that matter).
    You just have to work at it and find the right connections. All recoil management is is body connection to the ground and rifle connection to your body. That’s it. All the other stuff fits inside those two categories. If you weigh more than 120lbs you have plenty of weight to tame anything 338 and under. The key is to position yourself and connect the rifle to yourself in a way that allows the recoil energy to be used to move your whole body without coming off target.

    Guys get hung up on loading the bipod or hand position or some other trivial tip. Telling a guy to load the bipod to fix recoil management is like telling someone how to hold a hammer when they ask you how to build a house. If you don’t have a useable foundation to connect the rifle to anything else you do is pointless. Step 1 IMO should be to find out exactly how to lay on the ground. Get that and you’re 1/2 way there.
     
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    DJL2

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    That resonates with me - it makes a lot of sense intuitively. I can't think of any martial art that doesn't require a good base/body management to deliver a strike properly. Maybe thinking about it differently will allow me to improve. It's funny you mention loading a bipod...that doesn't mean anything to me. I've read about it, I've watched videos...and it just doesn't click.

    I don't have a video, but I've got a bunch of targets that look like the one below.
    No control.jpg
    The three shot group on the left involves some blading and my left hand on the fore end of the rifle, pulling it into my body. The group on the right was an attempt to get square behind the rifle, manage the rear bag, etc. That's pretty typical for me - shooting off a bipod gives me tight vertical, and loose horizontal.
     

    Precision Underground

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  • That resonates with me - it makes a lot of sense intuitively. I can't think of any martial art that doesn't require a good base/body management to deliver a strike properly. Maybe thinking about it differently will allow me to improve. It's funny you mention loading a bipod...that doesn't mean anything to me. I've read about it, I've watched videos...and it just doesn't click.

    I don't have a video, but I've got a bunch of targets that look like the one below.
    View attachment 7591660
    The three shot group on the left involves some blading and my left hand on the fore end of the rifle, pulling it into my body. The group on the right was an attempt to get square behind the rifle, manage the rear bag, etc. That's pretty typical for me - shooting off a bipod gives me tight vertical, and loose horizontal.
    Those targets make perfect sense for someone who is used to (and good at) blading and holding the forend. When you did that you got a solid base and got the rifle connected to you the same each time. You’re connected to the ground and the rifle is connected to you.

    When you move to square and using the rear bag you’re probably replacing the rifle’s connection to your body by connecting the rifle to the bag/ground. What you then have is rifle connected to the ground and you connected to the rifle. You can shoot fine this way with practice, a lot of guys do... but you will not control much recoil this way.

    Get square and use your back muscles to get upright enough so you can bring the rifle in front of your face. Then use your firing hand to pull straight into a relaxed shoulder. That’s taking the place of your support hand connecting the rifle to you. Your aim comes from where the reticle lands when you pull straight in. No steering with your firing hand or with the rear bag. Move your body if you’re not on target.

    Watch my feet/hips shift in that video before I fire the rifle. That’s me adjusting my aim to make sure a straight pull down the line of the rifle lands my POA right on target. That is a true NPA. Don’t use the bag to aim. Use your body to aim and use the bag to make the reticle be still once you are on target.
     
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    barronian

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    OK, other end of the spectrum here - .22 lr I've been trying to improve my fundamentals for about a year now but I've run into a wall and am not improving :-( frustrating ! Shooting prone, bipod and rear bag, 100m. I notice that my natural POA is not perfect. After a shot my POA has changed, usually by 0.1 mil or less but sometimes as much as 0.2 mil. These are nearly always 'high' compared to the start POA. I have tried changing my shoulder/butt height, my preloading, basically everything i can think of but haven't found out what the answer is. Is there an accepted correlation between fundamental errors and change in POA?

    One thing i picked up from the discussion above was the idea of "To control recoil you’ve got to use your body as the conduit between the rifle and the ground. A lot of guys use the rear bag as the conduit. " i definitely think of "steering with the rear bag", or anchoring the butt in the rear bag..
     

    goatboy

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    On the “high” comment. I’ve noticed that on fixed stock, sporting rifles with a low cheek comb relative to scope height that I need a taller bipod to be in a good position neck and sight wise. Also, the comb height can be different in prone vs bench. A chassis or stock with an adjustable cheek is a critical element to work with.

    Suggest you work in the dry fire fundamentals. Can you get behind the gun and engage the grip backwards without and change in poa? Try raising the comb a bit and lowering the bipod a notch. See if you can get flatter and straighter behind the rifle. Don’t use ammo, make it just about getting the fit of the rifle to your body. The boom and excitement of actual shooting cause us all to rush past the set up and then we wonder why it doesn’t work.

    At least I suck and am trying to work it out.

    BTW, this thread is a great example of the SH community. Thanks all and thanks Lowlight for creating this,

    GB
     
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    sonichanxiao

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    Tried to straight my body and square my shoulder with the rifle last weekend, quite significant improvements in terms of point of aim after taking the shots. The target center can stay within 2 mils in my vision now. I know I still have some other fundamental issues to fix in my new videos during practice below. But that's a huge improvement to me. Thank you very much everyone. Glad I am with the hide.

    I know my body might not look fully straight, but this is something I can do the best for now. Maybe I need a camera from the top while I am shooting in prone so I know where to adjust to have a straight body. And I tried to square my shoulder, however I couldn't figure out how people can keep both of their elbows out and looks almost equal width. Maybe because I have a shorter forearm, my left upper arm would need to get close to my body so my left hand can reach the rear bag to support the rifle. But I make sure I am not rolling my left shoulder when I am pulling the rifle back to me.

    I think I still need to practice on the follow through like the trigger finger pull and other things like stick the face on the cheekpiece.

    More practicing is coming.
     
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    Precision Underground

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  • OK, other end of the spectrum here - .22 lr I've been trying to improve my fundamentals for about a year now but I've run into a wall and am not improving :-( frustrating ! Shooting prone, bipod and rear bag, 100m. I notice that my natural POA is not perfect. After a shot my POA has changed, usually by 0.1 mil or less but sometimes as much as 0.2 mil. These are nearly always 'high' compared to the start POA. I have tried changing my shoulder/butt height, my preloading, basically everything i can think of but haven't found out what the answer is. Is there an accepted correlation between fundamental errors and change in POA?

    One thing i picked up from the discussion above was the idea of "To control recoil you’ve got to use your body as the conduit between the rifle and the ground. A lot of guys use the rear bag as the conduit. " i definitely think of "steering with the rear bag", or anchoring the butt in the rear bag..
    You’re on the right track. Think about it. If the reticle is high after the shot then the butt of the rifle had to have moved down. Did your body move down? No. So what happened is the stock moved into the bag more. The answer is one of two things-
    1- Less cheek pressure and a better bag (or better bag control) so the stock does not move down and lift you off target. This is exactly why we made our standard bag (now called the EL-Rx) to be more full with the locking fill. The vast majority of average shooters have the stock 100% in the bag and are relying on it to keep them on target. So even if you aren’t perfect fundamentally the bag can do a lot of the work for you. The downside to that is you will have trouble when you get any decent amount of recoil.

    2- The better option for recoil management- Use your body as the rear bag. Position yourself in a way that a straight in pull down the line of the rifle puts you on target. That’s a true NPA. So your body is dictating your aim and the bag is brought in at the end to steady that aim. Then you can handle any amount of recoil without coming off target because all forces acting on the rifle are in line with the rifle. As long as your relaxed and allow the recoil to move through you it won’t be reflected back into the rifle and you aren’t adding any out-of-line forces to move you off target.

    Not only does this allow for recoil management but it creates consistency and makes you and the rifle like a self contained gun turret that can be set down anywhere and still shoot the same. Too many guys are relying on something on the exterior to be part of their set up. How often do we hear a guy say he couldn’t shoot well because he was on concrete and couldn’t load the bipod? Don’t let outside elements be part of your set up. The surface you’re on wont matter if you’re doing it right fundamentally.
     

    Precision Underground

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  • Tried to straight my body and square my shoulder with the rifle last weekend, quite significant improvements in terms of point of aim after taking the shots. The target center can stay within 2 mils in my vision now. I know I still have some other fundamental issues to fix in my new videos during practice below. But that's a huge improvement to me. Thank you very much everyone. Glad I am with the hide.

    I know my body might not look fully straight, but this is something I can do the best for now. Maybe I need a camera from the top while I am shooting in prone so I know where to adjust to have a straight body. And I tried to square my shoulder, however I couldn't figure out how people can keep both of their elbows out and looks almost equal width. Maybe because I have a shorter forearm, my left upper arm would need to get close to my body so my left hand can reach the rear bag to support the rifle. But I make sure I am not rolling my left shoulder when I am pulling the rifle back to me.

    I think I still need to practice on the follow through like the trigger finger pull and other things like stick the face on the cheekpiece.

    More practicing is coming.
    Still some work to do but that’s miles better than before.
     
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    barronian

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    You’re on the right track. Think about it. If the reticle is high after the shot then the butt of the rifle had to have moved down. Did your body move down? No. So what happened is the stock moved into the bag more. The answer is one of two things-
    1- Less cheek pressure and a better bag (or better bag control) so the stock does not move down and lift you off target. This is exactly why we made our standard bag (now called the EL-Rx) to be more full with the locking fill. The vast majority of average shooters have the stock 100% in the bag and are relying on it to keep them on target. So even if you aren’t perfect fundamentally the bag can do a lot of the work for you. The downside to that is you will have trouble when you get any decent amount of recoil.

    2- The better option for recoil management- Use your body as the rear bag. Position yourself in a way that a straight in pull down the line of the rifle puts you on target. That’s a true NPA. So your body is dictating your aim and the bag is brought in at the end to steady that aim. Then you can handle any amount of recoil without coming off target because all forces acting on the rifle are in line with the rifle. As long as your relaxed and allow the recoil to move through you it won’t be reflected back into the rifle and you aren’t adding any out-of-line forces to move you off target.

    Not only does this allow for recoil management but it creates consistency and makes you and the rifle like a self contained gun turret that can be set down anywhere and still shoot the same. Too many guys are relying on something on the exterior to be part of their set up. How often do we hear a guy say he couldn’t shoot well because he was on concrete and couldn’t load the bipod? Don’t let outside elements be part of your set up. The surface you’re on wont matter if you’re doing it right fundamentally.
    Thanks PU - appreciate it. I had completely misunderstood things (again :rolleyes: ) I've been using a hard filled Protektor rabbit ear bag and relying on it to 'hold' the rear of the gun in place. My procedure has been anchoring the butt down against the rear bag then bringing me (and my shoulder ) up against the back of the gun, and my head down on the cheek rest to hold everything in place..... This has been consistent enough to get me to a 5 shot group average of 0.72 MOA but i've hit a wall here and haven't been improving. Now im going to try learning your technique. Do you think that removing the bag completely and training without any bag would be a good way of learning the technique you describe and 'unlearning' the habits i have with the firm rear bag ?
     

    Precision Underground

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  • Thanks PU - appreciate it. I had completely misunderstood things (again :rolleyes: ) I've been using a hard filled Protektor rabbit ear bag and relying on it to 'hold' the rear of the gun in place. My procedure has been anchoring the butt down against the rear bag then bringing me (and my shoulder ) up against the back of the gun, and my head down on the cheek rest to hold everything in place..... This has been consistent enough to get me to a 5 shot group average of 0.72 MOA but i've hit a wall here and haven't been improving. Now im going to try learning your technique. Do you think that removing the bag completely and training without any bag would be a good way of learning the technique you describe and 'unlearning' the habits i have with the firm rear bag ?
    Yep you can shoot Ok like that and a lot of people do but you’ll struggle with consistency and recoil management.

    I think going with no bag would be a great drill to get you out of the habit. You should do this at home with no ammo anywhere nearby. Work on building a position for a while and don’t even load the rifle. Connect to the ground, connect rifle to you. It’s going to be really difficult and wobbly until you get the connections right. Once you do that things will get a lot more steady when you pull the rifle in. Of course you’ll need a bag to shoot your best but try to only use the bag to make the reticle be still, not to aim the rifle.
     
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    DJL2

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    +1 for no bag practice. I signed myself up for some of that after yesterday. In my head, at least, I shouldn’t need a rear bag to shoot tight at 100. I was definitely seeing too much movement before bagging (and after, really). On the bright side, recoil management still improved even though I removed the brake.

    @sonichanxiao - what’s your video setup? I’ll figure out a way to boost your morale here in the near future, heh.

    I experimented with bipod and cheek piece height - recently got an Atlas (std height). Small sample, but I seemed a bit more stable going lower. ETA - two stops out seems more natural/stable/easier than either one or none...but, I don’t think I shot two out yesterday.

    I initially forgot the cheek piece entirely, so started with a sporter style chin weld (which is familiar enough to me that it didn’t immediately trigger a “hey, dumbass”). I think my mount is getting closer to center - basically had the rifle along the right side of my neck, from a bit above the clavicle to a bit below. I’m not sure what the right answer is here, though.
     
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    barronian

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    somewhat better- smaller change in the POA (better return to battery)- and at least my POI errors are more consistent ! thanks :)
    more practice needed.

    first group was coldbore. all .22lr at 100m. average 0.65 MOA.
    1617041216920.png
     

    lowlight

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    Try bringing the stock slightly more inboard,

    If you look at the location of the stock, if that is 6 O Clock, you need to be 6:30 based on the recoil pulse I see

    it might be a bit of a trigger control issue too pulling you right, looks like a bit of a jerk in the shot I saw
     
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    DJL2

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    I can't think of a non-dumb way to ask this... how do I pull the rifle in? Bicep? Rear delt/back? I'm wondering about what sort of biomechanics/geometry should result from getting your LOP setup correctly.

    I've got my stuff setup about like @lowlight describes in his videos for distance. I'm wondering if I need to go longer, maybe significantly, on my LOP to get the grip further away from me...which would be a first, given my little T-Rex arms.

    Clearly, I missing something.
     

    lowlight

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    No you don't want a longer LOP shorter is better for today

    The movement isn't back, it's sideways, you have to adjust where your pocket is, plus the trigger control might be a factor
     

    Precision Underground

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  • I can't think of a non-dumb way to ask this... how do I pull the rifle in? Bicep? Rear delt/back? I'm wondering about what sort of biomechanics/geometry should result from getting your LOP setup correctly.

    I've got my stuff setup about like @lowlight describes in his videos for distance. I'm wondering if I need to go longer, maybe significantly, on my LOP to get the grip further away from me...which would be a first, given my little T-Rex arms.

    Clearly, I missing something.
    Pull with bicep only. Make sure to keep your shoulder relaxed. It can be hard to pull with your bicep without pushing with your shoulder. It’s not a death grip its a steady pull into a relaxed shoulder. A good gauge to use is pull with the same force of the weight of the rifle *credit Jacob from RO. So if it’s a 15lb rifle pull with 15 lbs of force. .

    A good way to feel isolating the bicep while relaxing the shoulder is to reach up and grab the mag instead of the grip. It’s a lot easier to keep the shoulder relaxed while pulling with the bicep if your arm isn’t bent so much. Get the feel for it and then transfer that back to the grip and replicate it.
     
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    DJL2

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    Apparently, if one desires a video shot from the 6 o'clock, one must be more specific than I was...
    I'll see about dragging the SOTIC out again tomorrow alongside the -06. That oughta be...interesting.


    I'm still on a quest to make the OP look good. I noted I had a tendency to tense my left shoulder and prop myself on that elbow. I lowered the bipod somewhat and that allowed me to more easily get the gun into my body, but seems less ideal from a head/neck perspective...might be my mount is too low. On the bright side, the groups are becoming less shit...so, perhaps things are improving somewhat.
     

    Precision Underground

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  • Apparently, if one desires a video shot from the 6 o'clock, one must be more specific than I was...
    I'll see about dragging the SOTIC out again tomorrow alongside the -06. That oughta be...interesting.


    I'm still on a quest to make the OP look good. I noted I had a tendency to tense my left shoulder and prop myself on that elbow. I lowered the bipod somewhat and that allowed me to more easily get the gun into my body, but seems less ideal from a head/neck perspective...might be my mount is too low. On the bright side, the groups are becoming less shit...so, perhaps things are improving somewhat.
    That’s not bad IMO. You do look a little low but it’s hard to tell from the angle. Once you’ve got it you won’t have to readjust after you fire the rifle. Just make sure your connection to the earth is in your core, not through your face on the rifle.

    I’ve said it 1000 times but it’s the key to how I shoot- use your back muscles to get your head and shoulders upright enough to address the rifle. If you want to get a little higher try to use that and see how it works for you. You’ll feel your upper core press into the ground when you lift up with your back. That pressure is what my position is built around. Core pressures into the ground while rifle is pulled into the shoulder(not rifle smashed into the ground with your face). So my rifle is connected to the ground through my shoulder and links to that pressure in my core.

    Spend some time at home practicing getting into position. That’s one reason I’m all about using back/core muscles. There’s literally one way to do it and it’s the same every time. If you’re propped on elbows or laying on the rifle it’s really hard to do it the same way every day.
     
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    DJL2

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    @Precision Underground - firstly, thanks for taking the time. I feel like this thread in particular has helped me a LOT. Sometimes I get things right (cycle bolt, shoot again), sometimes I come out of it a little a need to re-build between shots. Definitely much more consistent.

    I think you're right that I am too low. I'm actually having a hard time figuring out what "right" is for height. I think I've got a handle on using my back muscles - but, do I want them to stay tensed or do I relax them? I assume relaxed, so I built a lower position, but with more tension in my neck. I'm gonna spend some time with the bipod a little higher and work on keeping my left elbow out of play while getting a more natural alignment of head/neck.

    Did get the -06 to the range. This rifle is 10 lbs, bare muzzle. I can see that I've improved, and also that I still have work to do.

     

    Precision Underground

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  • @Precision Underground - firstly, thanks for taking the time. I feel like this thread in particular has helped me a LOT. Sometimes I get things right (cycle bolt, shoot again), sometimes I come out of it a little a need to re-build between shots. Definitely much more consistent.

    I think you're right that I am too low. I'm actually having a hard time figuring out what "right" is for height. I think I've got a handle on using my back muscles - but, do I want them to stay tensed or do I relax them? I assume relaxed, so I built a lower position, but with more tension in my neck. I'm gonna spend some time with the bipod a little higher and work on keeping my left elbow out of play while getting a more natural alignment of head/neck.

    Did get the -06 to the range. This rifle is 10 lbs, bare muzzle. I can see that I've improved, and also that I still have work to do.

    You’ve got 3 choices- lay on the rifle, prop up on elbows, or use back muscles. If you want to control recoil you need to use back muscles IMO. When you do it right it’s 100% consistent and stable. Im def not saying to strain to lift yourself up. It’s just enough to press your core down and make an angle to get your face and shoulders up to address the rifle without laying on top it.

    Again, your core pressing into the ground as you lift up becomes your base. So while you are using your back muscles, the rifle is connected to the ground rather than those muscles. People will tell you to totally relax when you shoot. That’s not reality because you’d be jello. The closest you can come to that is what you’re doing. But when you totally relax and lay on the rifle you have to use your neck muscles to support yourself. I relax everything except my upper back and my right bicep. My neck is only doing what it would do any other time which is not letting my head flop over.

    ETA- the vid looks pretty damn good BTW. Definitely a little low and on the rifle though. Just keep working on creating a base to connect the rifle to rather than connecting yourself to the rifle.
     
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    DJL2

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    I gave things a go this weekend with my 8.25 lb 7mm RM. Just wanted an azimuth check after dropping it in a new stock (.8 mil left was the answer, no bedding yet). I got it right on the fifth shot... my whole body cycled like the slide on a pistol and right back on it. Not saying it was necessarily pleasant, but no bruising at least.

    I shot an F-class match with my KRG off my CAL and a rear bag this weekend. I was definitely the only guy square behind the gun, heh. It wasn’t bad though, being the first time I’ve ever shot paper at 1000. Lots of bad wind calls, but I was handling the gun passably.

    Things are coming along, still a ways to go for consistency.
     

    Precision Underground

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  • I gave things a go this weekend with my 8.25 lb 7mm RM. Just wanted an azimuth check after dropping it in a new stock (.8 mil left was the answer, no bedding yet). I got it right on the fifth shot... my whole body cycled like the slide on a pistol and right back on it. Not saying it was necessarily pleasant, but no bruising at least.

    I shot an F-class match with my KRG off my CAL and a rear bag this weekend. I was definitely the only guy square behind the gun, heh. It wasn’t bad though, being the first time I’ve ever shot paper at 1000. Lots of bad wind calls, but I was handling the gun passably.

    Things are coming along, still a ways to go for consistency.
    Now you’re on to it. Body cycling is the mechanism used to expend the recoil. This is why squishing the stock into the bag is so detrimental to recoil management. The rifle is pinned to the ground rather than connected to you. You’ll never get the recoil into your body like that.