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Where to go from here?

Russell3812

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 4, 2011
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Maryland
Last year, April 10th I purchased my first rifle. A savage 10FLCP-K chambered in .308. I bought a cheap $100 6-24x50 Vortex scope and a $20 bi-pod. Recently upgraded the bi-pod to a Harris. Bought some military surplus ammo and started shooting. After getting tired of my 5" groups at 100 yards I bought a $18 box of Remington .308...shot a little better. Than a $30 box of Hornady superformance ammo...shot much better! After getting tired of that I started reloading and now my best 5 shot group measured .708" at 100 yards. I know some people out there are shooting a million times better, I'm not bragging but I'm happy with my progress so far.
I've read a lot of information on this web site and others. Right now I'm trying to figure out what will take me to the next level in my shooting. How can I shrink those groups even more? Some of the guys at the range keep telling me to upgrade my scope but I'm wondering how much this would improve my shooting. Any input would be appreciated. THank you.
 
Re: Where to go from here?

First, you're already doing rather well to begin with.

I would go over the rifle to ensure all is as it should be. Fasteners should be properly tight, crown and optics should be functional, and care should be exercised to ensure bore preservation.

Assuming that all is as it should be with the rifle, I would readdress my marksmanship process to ensure that I am covering the basics with due diligence. It never hurts to periodically rerun the initial training process.

No matter what the status of my current marksmanship skills, I insist on treating them as a perishable. Use 'em, or lose 'em.

I believe that every serious marksman should and does engage in skills confirmation. Some call it practice, others call it training, I call it essential.

I don't call it plinking but maybe I should.

Take the shot right, every shot; anything else is a waste of good ammo and bore life. Plinking can be a good thing, as long as the marksman in you stays serious about how and when to release the shot. Anything else is a lot of things, but they all start with 'irresponsible'. You can never call a bullet back.

I do it with a 22 because doing it right demands frequent and significant repetition; and the 22 lends itself to enough economy to make that repetition affordable. It also does not demand great distances.

It does not demand sinking a fortune into a trainer.

The most desireable traits of a trainer are affordabilty and consistency. Pure accuracy is not paramount, all that matters regarding accuracy is that the main variant in a day's performance be the shooter. The rifle, however accurate it may be, needs only to be reliable in that accuracy, and not exquisitely so. The shooter should be the only actual variable.

When and only when it can be conclusively and repeatedly proven that the equipment has become a genuine limitation should an equipment upgrade be seriously considered.

When I reach a plateau, my questions about where to go next always begin with confirming that I myself am not the problem. If I'm at my peak, the system needs some other form of improvement, and not until I am.

It is my honest belief that a good marksman can wring out the ultimate iota of accuracy from any rifle, or tell you what's wrong with it. If I have doubts, they usually trace back to myself, and not the equipment.

A 'cheap' scope is seldom a serious impediment at distances as short as 100yd. There are a few elcheapo brands it will pay to keep at a distance, but I really don't think Vortex is one of them. The only one I will personally avoid by brand is BSA, and I'm sure somebody's going to disagree with me about that.

For my simple needs, the places where a scope falls flat are clarity and parallax. My inexpensive Tasco scopes will usually begin to have trouble reliably resolving a 22 caliber bullet hole at around 200yd. They also tend to fail to reliably compensate parallax correctly at the distances for which they provide the sharpest focus. To improve in these areas usually requires buying a significantly more expensive optic.

If it's not made in America or Europe, it's probably made in China, and probably lots of them from the same factory with the 'Company' name/emblem added just before they get boxed and sent out the door. If you doubt me, read the instructions; they often tend to have the same misspellings. And before we slam Chinese optics on a generic basis, hold on. As time goes by, they get better at it, just like the Japanese once did. These days, the Japanese do their oursourcing to China, but they still put their own nametags on the bozes. I think that means something, and that less and less of it is bad as time goes by.

I have covered the subject of parallax elsewhere on this site, ad nauseam. All I will say here is that I believe parallax is the single least understood and most significant factor in accuracy failure. Accuracy failure; i.e., getting less accuracy out of the equipment than it can reasonably deliver.

Finally, there's that concern about accuracy. It need not become an obsession.

For those who must, Benchrest is a valid occupation.

For the rest of us, there is a convenient word. It is 'adequate'.

If we find frustration to be a frequent companion, I suggest we're doing it wrong. Good enough is good enough.

If you can look at a target and be satisfied to the best of your own comfort level that it can be defeated, and by you, at will; there really isn't anywhere further to go from there. Allow yourself the luxury of reasonable satisfaction, in reasonable doses.

Greg
 
Re: Where to go from here?

Greg,

Thank you for your reply. I had thought of purchasing a 22 simply because it would allow me to practice more and cost a lot less.Reloading for the 308 ..... well no it has not saved me money in fact I spend more now but just lie to myself.

I appreciate your insight regarding the equipment being used. Personally I cannot see how, at 100 yards, a new scope would improve my shooting. I have found a range that allows me to shoot to 200 and I'm working on this. Needless to say I am not coming anywhere close to the groupings at 200 than I am at 100.

I see a few shooters at the range with ridiculously expensive equipment and they're shooting the same as I am. This has caused me to doubt the need to dump thousands of dollars into my equipment. I'm thinking practice....the right way...will develop my shooting.

So about developing that "solid foundation" you spoke about. Reading material? simply practice? classes? I've found a few marksmanship posts here on the hide and there are a few books out there I was considering. Any recommendations?
 
Re: Where to go from here?

Russell,

I think Greg is spot on about the 22. I use mine a lot, and it is low cost practice.

The online training here is a great tool for improving your fundamentals. Also, there are some good classes to be had in PA, not too far from you.

But I think you also need to decide where you want to go with your shooting before doing anything else. If benchrest, new equipment is probably in order. If F-class, maybe just a new scope for the 600 and 1000 yard matches. If tactical matches, maybe a MIL-dot scope of some flavor.

And keep in mind, each of those destinations has different degrees of accuracy. Your setup is probable accurate enough for tactical matches (except you might need to range with your scope) as the difficulty of those matches is usually position, time, obscure target, etc.

If you let us know where you want to head with your shooting, there will be someone here who can help with that specific interest. But no matter what you choose, the fundamentals of marksmanship remain the same. It's never a bad place to start.
 
Re: Where to go from here?

I learned from others, firsthand. Family, fellow Marine Veterans at the Marine Corps League, shooters at a local club. Later, I was able to pick the brains of professional shooters and gun builders at MCB Quantico, in a once in a lifetime week of total immersion with the Marine Corps Teams. I got lucky, but not all that much luck is really needed. Books, Yes. Here, definitely.

Just remember to start at the beginning, and to revisit your roots periodically.

What I do for you, I do for anyone who is listening here. If I have a job here, that's probably a big part of it.

Greg
 
Re: Where to go from here?

Greg thank you! Just reading that.. Helps for me. Have you ever thought of writing a book? Me thinks there is alot of usefull knowledge up there that us younger guys would benefit from. Again thanks, because you always have great info that you freely give to us.

Thanks
 
Re: Where to go from here?

@SLED:

I'm most interested in long range competition shooting. I would like to attempt different shooting positions but the ranges I've found only allow you to shoot off a bench. Prone, or sitting postions are out of the question. what I want to become proficient at is shooting long range. I initially bought the rifle wanting to shoot out to 1000 yards but....have not found a place close enough to do it.
 
Re: Where to go from here?

Russell,

If you mean the tactical type of long range, I think your setup is accurate enough. What you would need is a scope with a MIL reticle and exposed turrets. This is not to improve accuracy, but to facilitate ranging targets, dialing/holding for distance and movers, and making corrections on missed shots. There are tons of options. I prefer first focal plane for this type of shooting, but it isn't required. Fixed power scopes can also get you the same features for low cost. Lots of reading to be done over in the optics forum.

Other than that, get out to a match and have fun!
 
Re: Where to go from here?

I did write a book, but it was submitted concurrent with another, better one on the same subject. By now, it's hopelessly obsolete.

I also had several articles published in <span style="font-style: italic">Precision Shooting</span> and <span style="font-style: italic">Tactical Shooter</span> back around the time The 'Hide was getting started.

Maybe there's more left in me; don't rightly know.

I'd rather do things the way I'm doing them now; no income accrued. The way my finances work these days, any signficant earned income may well be more trouble than it's worth, tax-wise. I'm on SS.

Sled is a friend and fellow competitor at our local FV200/fV250 matches. These days, we have a decent following and significant chellenge without the stresses associated with high-stakes comp.

There are no prizes or awards, scores get posted here at SH, and that's it. Mostly we're there to test ourselves, mingle with friends, and help each other along.

Great atmosphere.

This will be the year FV grows up; I just hope we can maintain the wonderfully informal setting we've always had up until now. For us, the main emphisis has centered around growing everyone's skill. STP, and others among us, are NRA Certifeid Rifle Instructors, and this event helps both the Shooters and the Instructors.

Our FV200/FV250 matches (STP's, actually) demonstrate clearly that you don't need to get out to 1000yd in order to find a challenge.

Sled's approach appears to be based on developing a tactical-comp-capable rig. Others, myself included, base our approach on known-distance comp; which pays less attention to ranging capabilities. For the FV's challenge, either will work quite well.

This past weekend's club work bee was devoted to clearing out the range back at the 250 yard distances, so the matches can proceed at 250yd with much better facility. Score targets and sighter targets have been rescaled for the full distance. Season opener runs Apr 7, see the F Class forum for more info. Unfortnuately, my own season will need to start with the following one.

Greg
 
Re: Where to go from here?

Greg makes a good point. We all have different goals for our shooting. Step 1 is figuring out your goal, then determine what gear you need to support that.

My goal is shooting tactical matches where a MIL/MOA reticle is needed. If a person's goal is F-Class, it is of no help. Furthermore, for the same price as a decent MIL reticle scope you can probably get better quality glass in a duplex type reticle. MIL reticles are not the end-all, be-all of scopes.

Greg is also correct that you don't need to shoot 1000 yards to challenge yourself. I started shooting the matches Greg refers to when I first got my rifle. I got a lot of help there. Finding a local range/club with semi-formal matches (formal enough for good safety, informal enough to be good sources of information) is a great way to improve marksmanship. Plus, you'll make friends that can help you in other ways.

I still shoot the F-Class matches with Greg. The COF is 4 targets, 10 rounds each. It's a harsh reminder that it takes a lot of focus to keep 40 rounds on target.

It matters not what type of shooting you do. Just that you are out there being involved in the sport!

Good luck!