You can shoot the same way from a bench. I am looking the same through the scope from a bench as when I am in the prone. It's all about training your body to get on the rifle correctly and to have the rifle set up correctly.
- Thread starter grendel2000
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You can shoot the same way from a bench. I am looking the same through the scope from a bench as when I am in the prone. It's all about training your body to get on the rifle correctly and to have the rifle set up correctly.
Like what @Rob01 says, how you “address” the rifle is important. But I had missed something very important even after watching lots of Frank’s training videos.
Then I happened upon this gem:
For me, this was the biggie that unlocked the boss-fight level. What I had thought was the “shoulder pocket” wasn’t!!
I should’ve brought this point up but once you learn the trick I think people internalize it and forget that it’s a thing. I sure did.
The tip in the video has major implications for high rx nearsighted shooters who wear glasses. You can’t totally eliminate the misalignment of your eye vis à vis the ideal spot on your glasses to look through (for me, anyway), but it helps.
Ok, so here’s the thing I learned.
On a right-handed shooter, I thought the shoulder pocket was the dip to the right of the clavicle and to the left of the shoulder. The place were most people, when standing, instinctively place the buttpad while hunting and shooting offhand.
When the buttpad is in this spot, your body (and thus, your head) is quite off-center and rotated away from being more perpendicular to the scope/rifle centerline. This forces you to have to lean/rotate your head in more from the side to get your eye behind the scope. And for me, I wound up looking through that extreme upper left corner of my glasses.
So where is this mythical shoulder pocket?
Again, assuming a right-handed shooter, this pöcket de résistance (sorry) is on the left-ish side of the clavicle (where it dives into your body). This feels really weird, but it works.
With the buttpad in this new place, the rifle’s centerline aligns more with the right side of my neck vs way out in no-man’s land.
I don’t know what this area should be called, but it’s definitely not any sort of pocket. “Upper chest” isn’t quite right either. Taking a page out of plate tectonics, how about calling it the clavic-boob subduction zone? Lol
Anyway, click-bait ads promise but don’t deliver, but this one trick, for me, made everything fall into place.
Really helps recoil management too.
Bonus tip!
Are you lucky enough to have a rifle with an adjustable buttpad? If so, an additional subtlety for bench and tripod shooting is to adjust the buttpad down from where it is when you are prone.
Prone shooters tend to jack the buttpad way up. If I use a rifle set up this way when shooting off the bench (and especially when standing) I find it difficult to get the buttpad into that sweet spot (the “new” shoulder pocket) as the gun feels too low.
So off the bench my buttpad is sort of in a low neutral setting and while standing/tripod shooting I adjust the buttpad way down.
Notes: I’m just a hack and don’t pretend to be some sort of shooting master. I’ve only used this buttpad placement on the bench or when shooting from a tripod. Never tried it offhand…probably works there too? Feels even weirder offhand, however.
Then I happened upon this gem:
For me, this was the biggie that unlocked the boss-fight level. What I had thought was the “shoulder pocket” wasn’t!!
I should’ve brought this point up but once you learn the trick I think people internalize it and forget that it’s a thing. I sure did.
The tip in the video has major implications for high rx nearsighted shooters who wear glasses. You can’t totally eliminate the misalignment of your eye vis à vis the ideal spot on your glasses to look through (for me, anyway), but it helps.
Ok, so here’s the thing I learned.
On a right-handed shooter, I thought the shoulder pocket was the dip to the right of the clavicle and to the left of the shoulder. The place were most people, when standing, instinctively place the buttpad while hunting and shooting offhand.
When the buttpad is in this spot, your body (and thus, your head) is quite off-center and rotated away from being more perpendicular to the scope/rifle centerline. This forces you to have to lean/rotate your head in more from the side to get your eye behind the scope. And for me, I wound up looking through that extreme upper left corner of my glasses.
So where is this mythical shoulder pocket?
Again, assuming a right-handed shooter, this pöcket de résistance (sorry) is on the left-ish side of the clavicle (where it dives into your body). This feels really weird, but it works.
With the buttpad in this new place, the rifle’s centerline aligns more with the right side of my neck vs way out in no-man’s land.
I don’t know what this area should be called, but it’s definitely not any sort of pocket. “Upper chest” isn’t quite right either. Taking a page out of plate tectonics, how about calling it the clavic-boob subduction zone? Lol
Anyway, click-bait ads promise but don’t deliver, but this one trick, for me, made everything fall into place.
Really helps recoil management too.
Bonus tip!
Are you lucky enough to have a rifle with an adjustable buttpad? If so, an additional subtlety for bench and tripod shooting is to adjust the buttpad down from where it is when you are prone.
Prone shooters tend to jack the buttpad way up. If I use a rifle set up this way when shooting off the bench (and especially when standing) I find it difficult to get the buttpad into that sweet spot (the “new” shoulder pocket) as the gun feels too low.
So off the bench my buttpad is sort of in a low neutral setting and while standing/tripod shooting I adjust the buttpad way down.
Notes: I’m just a hack and don’t pretend to be some sort of shooting master. I’ve only used this buttpad placement on the bench or when shooting from a tripod. Never tried it offhand…probably works there too? Feels even weirder offhand, however.
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Ah, not necessarily. Shooting off hand is, to my mind, the big difference. If you have a fully adjustable butt, that is cant/height/left or right offset, you can keep pad in the actual shoulder pocket while keeping the gun vertical, in front of your on eye, with the head erect.
Look to most competitive American skeet shotguns, where having the rib directly behind the eye which is actually the rear sight, and you can see this done routinely.
Not how I would set up, personally, for prone/bench/barricade but please keep in mind that I'm absolutely no expert on precision rifle shooting.
I can relate to this. Always feels like I have to roll my head into the cheek pad in order to get behind the scope. I’m gonna try this out next range session.
Thanks for the very detailed response, I never would have thought moving the rifle from my shoulder “pocket” was an option
Thanks for the very detailed response, I never would have thought moving the rifle from my shoulder “pocket” was an option
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The buttpad is in that spot in the pocket between the neck and shoulder on the clavical in my pic above and my head is straight and not bent over. You need to get some in person instruction as I feel I could have you shooting no problem in person but somethings get lost in the forums. If the rifle is set up right there should be no issues being able to get behind the scope.
Me neither. Glad it helped. It’s really Frank that’s helping with me adding some high rx nearsightedness info.
Anyone reading this who isn’t a member, well, you should be so you can read/listen/watch to Franks tips.
Recap of my posts on this thread for more straight ahead riflescope viewing (for me at least, esp. with high rx nearsighted glasses):
- Use contacts if possible
- If glasses, consider special version with adjusted focal spot
- Buy high rings
- Consider using chin-weld if the cheek-weld isn’t working or is painful
- Buttpad goes over inner clavicle (also helps recoil control)
- If adjustable buttpad: adjust med-low for bench, very low for tripod (others seem to like high for prone) - this is for more comfort & recoil control
- Consider affixing the scope further back (nearer you) and reducing the LOP to limit straining/nodding the head foreward
I think Rob is right on with his advice throughout this thread. Also consider filming yourself while shooting.
I should take my own advice lol
@Rob01 if you don’t mind me asking, are you nearsighted and what’s your prescription?
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Do you have thick glasses or thin? I’m just asking because I know high rx nearsightedness glasses have kind of unexpected issues that luckier folks don’t have to deal with. The margin for error/margin between in focus and out is sharper and more extreme with glasses like I used to wear.
Anyway, @justpassingthru it is physically impossible to get your head totally vertical behind a normal rifle (like how you hold your head while looking straight ahead) unless you:
- Saw your chin off, or
- Saw a big chunk (or all) of the buttstock off
Even Frank here cannot get his head actually straight up and down. It isn’t physically possible even if it might feel like one’s head is vertical.
I might be a dumbass, however. I’m no military sniper or instructor, just calling it how I see it.
Edit: just occurred to me that @Rob01 might be talking about “straight up” as in the nodding back-and-forth axis and I’m talking about it in the “yaw” or side-to-side axis.
You want your head up as much as possible in both ways. I was just assuming one wouldn’t push one’s forehead down and sort of lay “with” the gun but now that I think about it, I’ve sure seen others do that at the range before!
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Glasses aren't coke bottles but not super thin either. They are lined bifocals too.
I meant both ways for being upright. There is a very slight tilt horizontally but the up and down should be straight in the scope like Frank above.
I meant both ways for being upright. There is a very slight tilt horizontally but the up and down should be straight in the scope like Frank above.
Wow, that was Informative! That’s exactly what I do, my rifle is too far out in my shoulder. Can’t wait to try this out. Thanks again for all the replies
Thanks for the response.
I think the horizontal or yaw tilt is more than you might think. Look at Frank’s eyeglasses and draw a line off of that.
The back/forth or nodding axis is much straighter than the yaw, I agree, but there is still some in Frank’s. It’s not much. See how his chin is slightly tucked in and his shoulders are rolled forward a bit?
I mean, with @Diver160651 ‘s tripod technique one is supposed to bend at the hips behind a tripod, and that’s what Frank seems to be doing here. Sort of unavoidable to nod the head a wee bit like that unless you have the neck flexibility of a newborn.
At the bench, on the other hand, it’s easier to get that head more vertical. I think one’s head will still be ever so slightly forward but I’ll defer to you.
I have no experience in the prone.
I’m on your side, just trying to give the fellow a realistic expectation.
He's not looking through the upper left side of his glasses though. He is looking through the center. As I said there will be a little horizontal but not as much vertical. I do shoot these in prone, bench and from many props. If your rifle is set up right and you know how to address the rifle then it is not hard to do. He needs to get someone with him showing him how and why to get into positions and how to set the rifle up right. That should be done in any Precision Rifle 101 class. I know we always did it the first day out.
My own experience has me thinking just the opposite. Train yourself to use proper technique first.
My younger brother was on the Army shooting team for quite a few years. Their coach, Jack something, was damned near blind without his glasses. A couple of guys were having trouble at the 600 yard target and were blaming it on everything else.
Jack takes his glasses off, addresses the M14 and asks for a spotter. He shoots, the spotter feeds him info, he shoots, more info. He x’s. Info. X, X, X, X.
Then to prove his point, he broke position, stood up, closed his eyes and repeated the process. He was hitting 10’s and X’s with his eyes closed.
just buy some '1 day' contacts for shooting. Easy fix - I got dry eyes and all that but its performance vs pain which do you really want.
Get on the rifle with your eyes closed where its comfortable. Open your eyes; are you looking straight though the scope? Or are you staring below or above it? Adjust the cheek piece up or down as necessary. Are you having to then crane your neck forward to look through? Move the scope back and vice versa or take some length of pull out of your stock as you observed.
Same with the left to right but not every cheek piece can move laterally so there is some dead end as far as that avenue goes, some stocks just dont fit certain people great if they dont have all the adjustment built into them allowing flexibility.
I find that when Im getting on a rifle thats not mine, or isnt set up for me yet, with my eyes open I will contort myself out of what feels natural to attain a view through the scope. When I set it up for myself how its comfortable its much easier, natural positioning and I dont have to try to view through it, Im just there already by default.
Luckily that default spot is right in the one good section of my glasses that arent all scratched up
Same with the left to right but not every cheek piece can move laterally so there is some dead end as far as that avenue goes, some stocks just dont fit certain people great if they dont have all the adjustment built into them allowing flexibility.
I find that when Im getting on a rifle thats not mine, or isnt set up for me yet, with my eyes open I will contort myself out of what feels natural to attain a view through the scope. When I set it up for myself how its comfortable its much easier, natural positioning and I dont have to try to view through it, Im just there already by default.
Luckily that default spot is right in the one good section of my glasses that arent all scratched up
It seems that there are in fact very few that do this....or am I wrong?
In shotguns they used to do "cast off" to angle the stock away from the face a bit. but in addition to getting the eye directly behind the rib, it also resulted in the stock being driven back into your face a bit.
Hence the move to laterally adjustable comb hardware which I do believe every stock and chassis manf should offer.
I again offer to the OP that once on the comb, turn your nose just a bit into the comb so your eye tooth is touching it and this will move your eye laterally into the scope a bit more.
Cheers
Most non budget chassis and the kwm loggerhead stuff thats really all Ive seen in nice stocks do as well.
Off the top of your head, do you know which chassis might offer this?
For example, I'm pretty sure that MDT's flagship ACC Elite, MPA Matrix, Vision, and JAE (legacy and MDTs) don't.
I do have Terry Cross' hardware in a Rem 700 deer gun and it provides the full adjustability I wanted and, IMO, Mr. Cross is a total stand up guy.
The KRG Whiskey 3 lets you adjust the cheekpiece fore, aft, and of course up/down.
With an additional $40 purchase, you can both adjust it laterally (left/right), and if you so choose, one can to “spin” or rotate the cheekpiece (if looking down from above the gun).
Adjustable Cheekpiece Mount for W-3, X-Ray – Kinetic Research Group
kineticresearchgroup.com I’m a righty. I have rotated it so it looks like it’s taking a left turn, and also moved it as far right as I can. Maybe it’s dumb to do that (only shooting .204 so recoil to cheek isn’t a problem). My neck likes it as I can get behind the rifle’s centerline with less neck strain.
Mainly due to the cheekpiece (and special grip from MKM), that chassis is much more comfy to me than my AIAX even with its cheekpiece also moved max right.
So if I understand you right, the KWM/Terry Cross hardware also offers rotation?
Thank you for taking the time to reply.The KRG Whiskey 3 lets you adjust the cheekpiece fore, aft, and of course up/down.
With an additional $40 purchase, you can both adjust it laterally (left/right), and if you so choose, one can to “spin” or rotate the cheekpiece (if looking down from above the gun).
Adjustable Cheekpiece Mount for W-3, X-Ray – Kinetic Research Group
I’m a righty. I have rotated it so it looks like it’s taking a left turn, and also moved it as far right as I can. Maybe it’s dumb to do that (only shooting .204 so recoil to cheek isn’t a problem). My neck likes it as I can get behind the rifle’s centerline with less neck strain.
View attachment 8158310
Mainly due to the cheekpiece (and special grip from MKM), that chassis is much more comfy to me than my AIAX even with its cheekpiece also moved max right.
So if I understand you right, the KWM/Terry Cross hardware also offers rotation?
Yes, what you are showing on your W3 is what "cast off" in a wood stock would be at the comb. But I get that recoil isn't an issue with the caliber you are shooting in this chassis so no worries.
Yes, the KMW hardware is a two post set up and the piece that goes into the comb itself has lateral slots and you can move one or both posts left or right. I wouldn't call this rotation....more like you can move one post left and one post right and you will get the max angle from rifle center line.
Cheers
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