I am about to start loading some Berger 70gr VLD rounds in NATO brass and I'm going to use Hogden H335 powder. Which CCI primer should I use for best accuracy and reliability? I'm using a 16" 1:9 twist American Spirit Arms AR-15.
- Thread starter johnrrb81
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Re: Which primer to use
You really need to rethink this in my opinion...and this is just my $0.02 so please do not take this the wrong way. Are you set on CCI Primers? I think that most small rifle primers will work for you...but the short barrel magazine fed platform makes me think that you might want to focus more on the powder and bullet choice to ensure you are using something that will get a full burn in the short barrel. A VLD round will probably not reach the lands when loaded with a seating depth that will cycle through a magazine and it will seriously limit your case capacity for powder. I would choose a different bullet like a 69 grain Sierra or something that you can load in to the lands to get started and then adjust the seating depth when you fine tune the load. I would also go with a faster powder like N133 or even Benchmark to ensure you are getting a complete burn in the short barrel.
Best of luck!
You really need to rethink this in my opinion...and this is just my $0.02 so please do not take this the wrong way. Are you set on CCI Primers? I think that most small rifle primers will work for you...but the short barrel magazine fed platform makes me think that you might want to focus more on the powder and bullet choice to ensure you are using something that will get a full burn in the short barrel. A VLD round will probably not reach the lands when loaded with a seating depth that will cycle through a magazine and it will seriously limit your case capacity for powder. I would choose a different bullet like a 69 grain Sierra or something that you can load in to the lands to get started and then adjust the seating depth when you fine tune the load. I would also go with a faster powder like N133 or even Benchmark to ensure you are getting a complete burn in the short barrel.
Best of luck!
Re: Which primer to use
+1 rbeckwith
the match grade primers won't do much to improve accuracy if your firing semiauto with a 16in barrel
but then again your shooting bergers , your spending money and want accuracy . The match primers give better performance but , it's a cost thing.
+1 rbeckwith
the match grade primers won't do much to improve accuracy if your firing semiauto with a 16in barrel
but then again your shooting bergers , your spending money and want accuracy . The match primers give better performance but , it's a cost thing.
Re: Which primer to use
I tested a few today and shot 1.2" at 100 yards (H335, LC brass, and CCI 400 combo). Gonna change it up a little tomorrow. IMR 4895, LC brass, and CCI BR4 primers
I tested a few today and shot 1.2" at 100 yards (H335, LC brass, and CCI 400 combo). Gonna change it up a little tomorrow. IMR 4895, LC brass, and CCI BR4 primers
Re: Which primer to use
I've had very good results with 23.5 grs imr4895 cci 400 small rifle primer and a 68 or 69gr bullet. Same recipe with winchester primers. Ymmv
I've had very good results with 23.5 grs imr4895 cci 400 small rifle primer and a 68 or 69gr bullet. Same recipe with winchester primers. Ymmv
Re: Which primer to use
A buddy of mine that reloads said stay away from sierra as much as possible plus my experience with them overseas left a bad taste in my mouth. I've had good results with hornady match rounds. I was at my wife's grandma's house talking about reloading and my wife's cousin works for berger and gave me a box of the 70gr vld for christmas, and told me to give them a try but to stay away from winchester and remington primers
A buddy of mine that reloads said stay away from sierra as much as possible plus my experience with them overseas left a bad taste in my mouth. I've had good results with hornady match rounds. I was at my wife's grandma's house talking about reloading and my wife's cousin works for berger and gave me a box of the 70gr vld for christmas, and told me to give them a try but to stay away from winchester and remington primers
Re: Which primer to use
If you got a Berger hook up, ask for a box of the 73 gr boat tails. I have avoided vlds, prob guys like me caused Berger to come out with the hybrids.
Hornady publishes loading data for their 75 gr Amax in a 9" twist and Winchester primers. What's not to like? Unless you are loading mag length...then you want the 75 gr boat tail.
H335 is not listed in my copy of their manual.
If you got a Berger hook up, ask for a box of the 73 gr boat tails. I have avoided vlds, prob guys like me caused Berger to come out with the hybrids.
Hornady publishes loading data for their 75 gr Amax in a 9" twist and Winchester primers. What's not to like? Unless you are loading mag length...then you want the 75 gr boat tail.
H335 is not listed in my copy of their manual.
Re: Which primer to use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnrob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tested a few today and shot 1.2" at 100 yards (H335, LC brass, and CCI 400 combo). Gonna change it up a little tomorrow. IMR 4895, LC brass, and CCI BR4 primers </div></div>
If you have a load that looks semi promising, change ONE component/variable at a time with your reloads.
Just my .02
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnrob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tested a few today and shot 1.2" at 100 yards (H335, LC brass, and CCI 400 combo). Gonna change it up a little tomorrow. IMR 4895, LC brass, and CCI BR4 primers </div></div>
If you have a load that looks semi promising, change ONE component/variable at a time with your reloads.
Just my .02
Re: Which primer to use
What range are you wanting to be accurate at? That will determine what bullets you want to look at.
Also, with due respect, the opinion of your friend regarding Sierra bullets runs contrary to most of the informed world. 24gr (give or take) of H335 under a 69gr SMK is one of the universal .223 reloads for accuracy. Works for most rifles. Dismissing Sierra bullets eliminates the options most likely to bring you success, however you can choose to do as you wish.
Running a Berger VLD out of an AR-15 is simply a waste of money. The Berger VLD's are designed to be seated to the lands of the barrel. That is not possible in an AR-15 unless you are going to load single rounds by hand as your OAL is limited by the magazine.
As to your original question regarding primers, I recommend Remington for accuracy.
I have two loads for .223. Both on Lake City brass
Load 1: 69gr Sierra SMK, 24.0gr H335, Remington primer
Load 2: 55gr Hornady SP, 23.0gr H335, Remington primer (this is my low cost plinking load used for less than 200yds).
Also, H335 is great powder that produces good results for many. It also meters well which is a big plus if you are going to be loading a lot of it. I would not go away from that powder yet. Good luck.
What range are you wanting to be accurate at? That will determine what bullets you want to look at.
Also, with due respect, the opinion of your friend regarding Sierra bullets runs contrary to most of the informed world. 24gr (give or take) of H335 under a 69gr SMK is one of the universal .223 reloads for accuracy. Works for most rifles. Dismissing Sierra bullets eliminates the options most likely to bring you success, however you can choose to do as you wish.
Running a Berger VLD out of an AR-15 is simply a waste of money. The Berger VLD's are designed to be seated to the lands of the barrel. That is not possible in an AR-15 unless you are going to load single rounds by hand as your OAL is limited by the magazine.
As to your original question regarding primers, I recommend Remington for accuracy.
I have two loads for .223. Both on Lake City brass
Load 1: 69gr Sierra SMK, 24.0gr H335, Remington primer
Load 2: 55gr Hornady SP, 23.0gr H335, Remington primer (this is my low cost plinking load used for less than 200yds).
Also, H335 is great powder that produces good results for many. It also meters well which is a big plus if you are going to be loading a lot of it. I would not go away from that powder yet. Good luck.
Re: Which primer to use
I said screw it and changed almost everything. Current is Lapua match .223 brass, Berger 70gr VLD, IMR 4895, and CCI BR4 primers. Going out in the morning to test it in my AR and my Mini-14. In the process of building a new upper as well.
I said screw it and changed almost everything. Current is Lapua match .223 brass, Berger 70gr VLD, IMR 4895, and CCI BR4 primers. Going out in the morning to test it in my AR and my Mini-14. In the process of building a new upper as well.
Re: Which primer to use
BR4 will be perfect
BR4 will be perfect
Re: Which primer to use
That's funny don't use cci400 primers I've got a case of 10,000 same thing with winchester they've both performed very well many of clean 200 & 300 yrd rapid fires on the NRA high power scene. Truth be told I'd save my loot with a 16 inch barrel go load a bunch of 55 gr bullets in whatever brass and save the lapua & bergers for a different caliber in a bolt action. Seems like your loading benchrest quality ammo for something that's not going to give you that kind of performance. Good luck!
Oh & stay away from Sierra???? wow I've Never heard that one before. I better throw out my 25 pounds of 69 grainers that shoot sub moa at 600 yrds... With my cci 400 primers that are included in that load.
Next we'll hear how bad imr4895 is.... It's not BTW
That's funny don't use cci400 primers I've got a case of 10,000 same thing with winchester they've both performed very well many of clean 200 & 300 yrd rapid fires on the NRA high power scene. Truth be told I'd save my loot with a 16 inch barrel go load a bunch of 55 gr bullets in whatever brass and save the lapua & bergers for a different caliber in a bolt action. Seems like your loading benchrest quality ammo for something that's not going to give you that kind of performance. Good luck!
Oh & stay away from Sierra???? wow I've Never heard that one before. I better throw out my 25 pounds of 69 grainers that shoot sub moa at 600 yrds... With my cci 400 primers that are included in that load.
Next we'll hear how bad imr4895 is.... It's not BTW
Re: Which primer to use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnrob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A buddy of mine that reloads said stay away from sierra as much as possible plus my experience with them overseas left a bad taste in my mouth. I've had good results with hornady match rounds. I was at my wife's grandma's house talking about reloading and my wife's cousin works for berger and gave me a box of the 70gr vld for christmas, and told me to give them a try but to stay away from winchester and remington primers </div></div>
Not sure that is a very fair statment to condemn a whole company because your buddy said so. I will respectfully disagree and say the Sierra makes a superior product. I have been using thier 142gr MK in my 6.5/284 for a while now and I get nothing but spectacular results. Groups at 100 of 1/8" or less consistently. I have also had great luck with the 220 Gr OTM in my 300 BLK for subsonic rounds and they have been nothing but stellar as well. Hornady makes a great bullet, especially for the cost. Berger makes a fantastic VLD but are significantly more expensive. As far as quality, consistency, and overall performace....All three companies are on par with each other....it just depends on your application.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnrob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A buddy of mine that reloads said stay away from sierra as much as possible plus my experience with them overseas left a bad taste in my mouth. I've had good results with hornady match rounds. I was at my wife's grandma's house talking about reloading and my wife's cousin works for berger and gave me a box of the 70gr vld for christmas, and told me to give them a try but to stay away from winchester and remington primers </div></div>
Not sure that is a very fair statment to condemn a whole company because your buddy said so. I will respectfully disagree and say the Sierra makes a superior product. I have been using thier 142gr MK in my 6.5/284 for a while now and I get nothing but spectacular results. Groups at 100 of 1/8" or less consistently. I have also had great luck with the 220 Gr OTM in my 300 BLK for subsonic rounds and they have been nothing but stellar as well. Hornady makes a great bullet, especially for the cost. Berger makes a fantastic VLD but are significantly more expensive. As far as quality, consistency, and overall performace....All three companies are on par with each other....it just depends on your application.
Re: Which primer to use
I don't worry about primers until I have a reasonably accurate load figured out, then I'll change just that and look for a difference. In my AR I haven't seen any of significance, in my .308 bolt gun 1/4-1/2MOA differences with powder/primer combos. The only reason not to use a given primer in an AR is if it causes doubling. I have not had this problem in mine in 4500rnds with any brand, but I suspect its on the ragged edge, the firing pin dents the cups on chambering.
The Bergers were free, shoot the hell out of them, maybe some combo will shoot really well, share it if you find one.
Depending on your expected distances something other than match bullets may perform better. My 1/9 16" shoots 60gr VMaxes better that anything I've tried short range, 3/4" groups at 200yds.
What's your bad experience with Sierra? Accuracy is a product of shooter, weapon, and loading, every load won't perform in every weapon. Milspec accuracy standards aren't very stringent and in the M4 a rather large degradation is allowed before its unservicable. SMKs were never intended for good terminal ballistics, though they often work well nearly all match bullets are considered unreliable, they simply weren't designed to consistently penetrate and/or expand.
I don't worry about primers until I have a reasonably accurate load figured out, then I'll change just that and look for a difference. In my AR I haven't seen any of significance, in my .308 bolt gun 1/4-1/2MOA differences with powder/primer combos. The only reason not to use a given primer in an AR is if it causes doubling. I have not had this problem in mine in 4500rnds with any brand, but I suspect its on the ragged edge, the firing pin dents the cups on chambering.
The Bergers were free, shoot the hell out of them, maybe some combo will shoot really well, share it if you find one.
Depending on your expected distances something other than match bullets may perform better. My 1/9 16" shoots 60gr VMaxes better that anything I've tried short range, 3/4" groups at 200yds.
What's your bad experience with Sierra? Accuracy is a product of shooter, weapon, and loading, every load won't perform in every weapon. Milspec accuracy standards aren't very stringent and in the M4 a rather large degradation is allowed before its unservicable. SMKs were never intended for good terminal ballistics, though they often work well nearly all match bullets are considered unreliable, they simply weren't designed to consistently penetrate and/or expand.
Re: Which primer to use
i dont think primers are gonna help you much. bullet selection would be a better starting point.
i dont think primers are gonna help you much. bullet selection would be a better starting point.
Re: Which primer to use
Did no one read the rest of that sentence? I've used Sierra, 77gr OTM/MK262, when I was overseas. So not only did my friend say to stay away from them but also from personal experience. I hit a target 6 times in the chest and he kept advancin, so I would rather use a 109 green tip than anything Sierra puts out as far as their so called match grade ammo.
Did no one read the rest of that sentence? I've used Sierra, 77gr OTM/MK262, when I was overseas. So not only did my friend say to stay away from them but also from personal experience. I hit a target 6 times in the chest and he kept advancin, so I would rather use a 109 green tip than anything Sierra puts out as far as their so called match grade ammo.
Re: Which primer to use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnrob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did no one read the rest of that sentence? I've used Sierra, 77gr OTM/MK262, when I was overseas. So not only did my friend say to stay away from them but also from personal experience. I hit a target 6 times in the chest and he kept advancin, so I would rather use a 109 green tip than anything Sierra puts out as far as their so called match grade ammo. </div></div>
Am I reading this correctly? You were shooting SMKs at a live target? Well I would agree then....do not use those. They are in no way designed for expansion and kinetic engery transfer to a target. They are 'match grade' meant for extreme accuracy and as stated in thier manual, should NEVER be used for 'hunting' purposes. If you want to 'hunt' (I use that term in place of shooting at that live target, which I assume was not a game animal) then you should be using bullets suited for that purpose, such as Hornady A-Max, V-Max, Interbonds, or Barnes, hell even Sierra Game King....but if you are looking for extreme long range accuracy for target shooting, Berger and Sierra are the two best 'mainstream' manufacturers out there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnrob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did no one read the rest of that sentence? I've used Sierra, 77gr OTM/MK262, when I was overseas. So not only did my friend say to stay away from them but also from personal experience. I hit a target 6 times in the chest and he kept advancin, so I would rather use a 109 green tip than anything Sierra puts out as far as their so called match grade ammo. </div></div>
Am I reading this correctly? You were shooting SMKs at a live target? Well I would agree then....do not use those. They are in no way designed for expansion and kinetic engery transfer to a target. They are 'match grade' meant for extreme accuracy and as stated in thier manual, should NEVER be used for 'hunting' purposes. If you want to 'hunt' (I use that term in place of shooting at that live target, which I assume was not a game animal) then you should be using bullets suited for that purpose, such as Hornady A-Max, V-Max, Interbonds, or Barnes, hell even Sierra Game King....but if you are looking for extreme long range accuracy for target shooting, Berger and Sierra are the two best 'mainstream' manufacturers out there.
Re: Which primer to use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2clicks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's funny don't use cci400 primers I've got a case of 10,000 same thing with winchester they've both performed very well many of clean 200 & 300 yrd rapid fires on the NRA high power scene.
</div></div>
All it takes is one slam fire and you'll regret that decision.
CCI makes a great primer, but the 400 has a thinner primer cup and is not recommended for use in an AR.
I use the 450 because:
1. Magnum primers are indicated by my manuals for use with ball powder
2. the 450 has a thicker cup for use in an AR with a floating firing pin
A slam fire is highly unlikely with properly seated primers but it's a possibility that I would rather try to mitigate rather than risk.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2clicks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's funny don't use cci400 primers I've got a case of 10,000 same thing with winchester they've both performed very well many of clean 200 & 300 yrd rapid fires on the NRA high power scene.
</div></div>
All it takes is one slam fire and you'll regret that decision.
CCI makes a great primer, but the 400 has a thinner primer cup and is not recommended for use in an AR.
I use the 450 because:
1. Magnum primers are indicated by my manuals for use with ball powder
2. the 450 has a thicker cup for use in an AR with a floating firing pin
A slam fire is highly unlikely with properly seated primers but it's a possibility that I would rather try to mitigate rather than risk.
Re: Which primer to use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DarkD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnrob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did no one read the rest of that sentence? I've used Sierra, 77gr OTM/MK262, when I was overseas. So not only did my friend say to stay away from them but also from personal experience. I hit a target 6 times in the chest and he kept advancin, so I would rather use a 109 green tip than anything Sierra puts out as far as their so called match grade ammo. </div></div>
Am I reading this correctly? You were shooting SMKs at a live target? Well I would agree then....do not use those. They are in no way designed for expansion and kinetic engery transfer to a target. They are 'match grade' meant for extreme accuracy and as stated in thier manual, should NEVER be used for 'hunting' purposes. If you want to 'hunt' (I use that term in place of shooting at that live target, which I assume was not a game animal) then you should be using bullets suited for that purpose, such as Hornady A-Max, V-Max, Interbonds, or Barnes, hell even Sierra Game King....but if you are looking for extreme long range accuracy for target shooting, Berger and Sierra are the two best 'mainstream' manufacturers out there. </div></div>
I don't think the rules of war allow the use of expanding bullets against "live" targets.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DarkD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnrob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did no one read the rest of that sentence? I've used Sierra, 77gr OTM/MK262, when I was overseas. So not only did my friend say to stay away from them but also from personal experience. I hit a target 6 times in the chest and he kept advancin, so I would rather use a 109 green tip than anything Sierra puts out as far as their so called match grade ammo. </div></div>
Am I reading this correctly? You were shooting SMKs at a live target? Well I would agree then....do not use those. They are in no way designed for expansion and kinetic engery transfer to a target. They are 'match grade' meant for extreme accuracy and as stated in thier manual, should NEVER be used for 'hunting' purposes. If you want to 'hunt' (I use that term in place of shooting at that live target, which I assume was not a game animal) then you should be using bullets suited for that purpose, such as Hornady A-Max, V-Max, Interbonds, or Barnes, hell even Sierra Game King....but if you are looking for extreme long range accuracy for target shooting, Berger and Sierra are the two best 'mainstream' manufacturers out there. </div></div>
I don't think the rules of war allow the use of expanding bullets against "live" targets.
Re: Which primer to use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnrob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did no one read the rest of that sentence? I've used Sierra, 77gr OTM/MK262, when I was overseas. So not only did my friend say to stay away from them but also from personal experience. I hit a target 6 times in the chest and he kept advancin, so I would rather use a 109 green tip than anything Sierra puts out as far as their so called match grade ammo. </div></div>
Am I reading this correctly? What exactly about SS109 makes it more lethal than a 77grSMK. Was the "target" wearing armor? A Berger is not any more effective against armor than a SMK.
You come in here looking for advice about primers of all things and then want to get testy when people set you straight about your preconceived uneducated notions. Here is what I would do if I were you. Ask that buddy of yours what primer to use. If he has figured out that SMK bullets are shit, he knows way more than anyone here that has owned reloading press long enough to have ACTUALLY mastered the art.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnrob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did no one read the rest of that sentence? I've used Sierra, 77gr OTM/MK262, when I was overseas. So not only did my friend say to stay away from them but also from personal experience. I hit a target 6 times in the chest and he kept advancin, so I would rather use a 109 green tip than anything Sierra puts out as far as their so called match grade ammo. </div></div>
Am I reading this correctly? What exactly about SS109 makes it more lethal than a 77grSMK. Was the "target" wearing armor? A Berger is not any more effective against armor than a SMK.
You come in here looking for advice about primers of all things and then want to get testy when people set you straight about your preconceived uneducated notions. Here is what I would do if I were you. Ask that buddy of yours what primer to use. If he has figured out that SMK bullets are shit, he knows way more than anyone here that has owned reloading press long enough to have ACTUALLY mastered the art.
Re: Which primer to use
I would just try one. If you are happy with the accuracy go with it. If you are not try a different one. Remember to start low with each new primer.
I would just try one. If you are happy with the accuracy go with it. If you are not try a different one. Remember to start low with each new primer.
