Why 3100fps speed limit???

[TEAMSENDIT]

Ok first of all i have no issues what so ever with this limit or any limit they may put on matches. In fact i like that alot of matches are now not allowing magnums.

Is there something specifically at that speed that makes a weird noise or has a specific impact on steel?

I host some local matches so if this is an honest concern for me i don't want my steel tatered that shit is expensive. I already banned magnums because the amount of target stands they fuck up, maybe speed limit will be next.

Have any of you guys ever thought of a ft/lb of energy restriction instead of speed/magnum debate? with ballistic calculators these days it wouldn't be hard to figure out.

thanks scott

 

[GreatGonzo]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

High speeds can pit targets. I can shoot my steel at 50 yards with my 280 and only scratch the paint, then with my 223 and leave craters. It is not the energy, it is the speed. I generally don't want my steel hit with anything going 3000 f/s so I accommodate the distance accordingly.

 

[Pat M]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

Magnum's are just great for shearing off bolt heads, so my 300wm 190gr at 3000fps is ok for December?

 

[triceratops3]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

I don't really know much about this but I have heard that it's not really the energy of a bullet that hurts the steel, its speed that beats it up, even if it is a little bullet.

Also, I don't believe that reaching 3100 fps will make any odd noises but I think it may put more wear on the steel sooner.

And feel free to correct me if I'm wring. But I hope I'm right as to not be giving false info.

 

[TEAMSENDIT]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Magnum's are just great for shearing off bolt heads, so my 300wm 190gr at 3000fps is ok for December?

</div></div>

sorry man no magnums which includes wsm and saums. 284/280ai is probably hottest i will allow.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

I believe its to avoid damage to the targets like others have mentioned.

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

Good question Scott, I think that the more frangible bullets being used in matches these days (A-max, Berger, Lapua)aren't affecting the steel as badly as they are the target stands as you said. In my view, putting a restriction on speeds that the 7 magnums are capable of would make the .30 magnums with the 200 grn class bullets the logical choice. Energy on target is still going to be similar.

Creating a parameter of cartridge limitation "ie" nothing larger than 300WinMag which seems pretty common keeps it a ton simpler than having to chronograph everyone's load prior to a match.

My thoughts are that the keys to success in promoting tactical matches are inclusion and participation. The more limits that are placed, the less participants you'll have. If this is the goal great, if not, steel and stands are depreciated item's that allowances should be made for in match fee's.

 

[bohem]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

3100fps MV is a pretty safe spot where things like 300 WM's and 7 WSMs can be used but the steel won't be hurt with target impacts at ranges in excess of 400yd.

This is not ALWAYS the case that targets aren't hurt by them. I've seen some 3/8" plates that were on fixed posts which have been dished and ruined by repeated 7 WSM, 300 WSM, and 300WM abuse at ranges from 300-650yd.

I know a couple of match directors that are talking about running a 308 only match.

Speed kills steel, that's a well known fact. A 55gr FMJ from a 223 at 200yd routinely does more damage to steel than a 280 Rem shooting a 180gr Berger at 2800fps does.

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LR-WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My thoughts are that the keys to success in promoting tactical matches are inclusion and participation. The more limits that are placed, the less participants you'll have. If this is the goal great, if not, steel and stands are depreciated item's that allowances should be made for in match fee's. </div></div>

Very well put.

 

[Wil]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

It's not just a function of speed so much as a function of speed and sectional density of the bullet.

For example... launch a .308 155gr at 3000fps and observe the impact. Launch a .223 77gr at 3000fps and observe the crater on the steel....

 

[ranger1183]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

I agree with Scott (TSI) on this subject.

I know that if I build a 6.5 RUM and push 140 gr bergers as fast as they will go without blowing up, I don't have to be able to range or call wind worth a darn. The barrel might only last 500 rounds, but the average match is only 100 rounds or so. So me, not knowing squat or practicing worth a crap, walking into a match with an "uber-magnum laser beam" is an unfair advantage over everyone else.

Who wants to go to a match like that?

No magnums, no big bores. Make everyone play on the same level field and you have a test of dedication, skills and precision. Instead of being a "guess who's rich daddy just bought Junior a Lamborghini to race in the soap box derby?"

Limit the calibers and you increase the competition.

My two cents.

Oh, by the way, it's Scott's match so it's Scott's rules!

 

[timelinex]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with Scott (TSI) on this subject.

I know that if I build a 6.5 RUM and push 140 gr bergers as fast as they will go without blowing up, I don't have to be able to range or call wind worth a darn. The barrel might only last 500 rounds, but the average match is only 100 rounds or so. So me, not knowing squat or practicing worth a crap, walking into a match with an "uber-magnum laser beam" is an unfair advantage over everyone else.

Who wants to go to a match like that?

No magnums, no big bores. Make everyone play on the same level field and you have a test of dedication, skills and precision. Instead of being a "guess who's rich daddy just bought Junior a Lamborghini to race in the soap box derby?"

Limit the calibers and you increase the competition.

My two cents.

Oh, by the way, it's Scott's match so it's Scott's rules! </div></div>
That's a good point, I would love s matches with restrictions like only 308, really levels the playing field...

 

[turbo54]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

I really dig the 223/308 only idea, but there are a ton of guys that run other calibers that will bitch - and not participate.

It's nice whem comps seperate the rifles into two divisions - lame ballistics and "improved". Pretty much anything a decent step up from 223/308, and you get to play with the "big boys".

Beyond that, you've just gotta take things in stride. It sucks to get beaten by one or two hits by a 7WSM launching Berger hybrids at 3100fps when you're rocking a 308 with 175smks at 2700fps... but ANYONE paying any kind of attention knows whats up.

 

[a_bishop]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

+1 for a level playing field where a shooters skill goes farther than his wallet.

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

Level playing field is called F Class. Everybody has the same option to buy or build whatever calibre they want. If someone wants to limit themselves to the poor ballistcs of a 308 then let them. I'm one who understands ballistics enough to realize the 308 win sucks ass.

If you hold the 3100 fps limit and say no magnums, all the 308's will still get their ass beat ballistically when someone shows up with a 6mm rem or a 243 ai launching 115 DTACS at at 3100 fps. AND GUYS WILL BITCH. If you don't want to be out gunned, DON'T BUILD A 308.

If target damage is the concern, then charge the big boy shooters an extra $5 to shoot the match and stuff the money in a jar for target repairs.

 

[timelinex]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

I think your missing the point. If you make the restrictions then it will be a competition of skill rather than other things. Im not sure if anyone shoots 308 because they think its ballistically superior.. They do it because they dont want to spend 200+ on ammo alone every competition.

I don't think the 'big boys' need to be left out.. But just maybe have different classes... So theres a winner for the <308 and the >308 crowd. When you compare ballistics of a 338 to a 308 or 223, its ridiculous how much less skill/preparation is involved to get a first round hit. NOT saying its easy, because its not. Just alot easier.

So for example, many of my misses this last match were off by less than a moa. This would turn many of the misses into hits because the misses were from improper drops(didn't chrono load till after match) or wind and not jerking.

I don't really go to win, since Im new to matches, so I don't care too much BUT it would be nice to see where I stand compared to others using ballistically similar equipment.

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

The point of all of this should be mass participation. When you have the group of guys shooting 308's snicker or desmiss a hit from another guy who is shooting a ballistically sperior round, you'll loose your shooting base. When that happens, it'll just be you a your 2 or 3 buddies shooting. I don't see how anybody wins in this scenario.

You can go buy a box stock rem sps in 243 that'll spit the 105 amax out around 3000 fps. Why hold it against the guy for making a smarter purchase than the guy who buys the 308? Less recoil, superior ballistics and alot of time, cheaper to load for than the 308. And god forbid him to show up with a muzzle brake.

Once again, if you guys don't want to get OUT GUNNED, don't show up with a 308. A skilled shooter is a skilled shooter no matter what he's shooting.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

If I run a 308 at a match and get beat by 20 or 30 guys running hot calibers, I would get beat by the same 20 or 30 guys if they were all running 308s.

The difference really is not enough to make up for poor shooting.

Given a choise, I run a 6.5 caliber, it does make some difference, granted.

There really is no reason not to shoot the caliber of your choice at this level.

308 only matchhes are not very popular for a reason. A few years back, they were kind of the rage, you don't see them much now because people didn't like them.

Graham on a 308 can outshoot 95% of the people in the world running whatever they want, I have seen it.

And, the 3100 thing is because speed kills steel.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Level playing field is called F Class. Everybody has the same option to buy or build whatever calibre they want. If someone wants to limit themselves to the poor ballistcs of a 308 then let them. I'm one who understands ballistics enough to realize the 308 win sucks ass.

If you hold the 3100 fps limit and say no magnums, all the 308's will still get their ass beat ballistically when someone shows up with a 6mm rem or a 243 ai launching 115 DTACS at at 3100 fps. AND GUYS WILL BITCH. If you don't want to be out gunned, DON'T BUILD A 308.

If target damage is the concern, then charge the big boy shooters an extra $5 to shoot the match and stuff the money in a jar for target repairs. </div></div>

This is faulty logic. F class is divided into 223/308 guns, and everything else...which is totally reasonable as far as I'm concerned.

Secondly, nearly every member on this board agrees the answer to the newbies question "what caliber should I get" is 308 or 223. For good reason. They are cheap to shoot. They are moderate, proven calibers. According to your above quoted statement - these guys should be going head to head with 7WSMs? Fail.

Lastly, your idea that the big boys cough up more money for target wear is a good one! That makes perfect sense.

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

Newbs should buy a 243.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I run a 308 at a match and get beat by 20 or 30 guys running hot calibers, I would get beat by the same 20 or 30 guys if they were all running 308s.

The difference really is not enough to make up for poor shooting.

Given a choise, I run a 6.5 caliber, it does make some difference, granted.

There really is no reason not to shoot the caliber of your choice at this level.

308 only matchhes are not very popular for a reason. A few years back, they were kind of the rage, you don't see them much now because people didn't like them.

Graham on a 308 can outshoot 95% of the people in the world running whatever they want, I have seen it.

And, the 3100 thing is because speed kills steel. </div></div>

I agree that in many cases, people can't outshoot their own 223/308 rifles. However, many very talented/skilled shooters turn up at matches, and GREAT shooters DO get beaten by inferior shooters with higher performance calibers.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

GREAT shooters DO get beaten by inferior shooters with higher performance calibers.

</div></div>

No, they don't. A GREAT shooter knows his weapon and his caliber. He will know how much wind to hold, he will know his drops, he will compensate for a calibers shortcomings. You have to be a great shooter to beat one, period. A really good shooter might have a bad day, but you still have to be really freakin good to beat them. All calibers have good and bad points, and in real life, the advantages are not that great between them until you really streach the range.

I have outshot some really good shooters with my 308 that were using whiz bang setups. I have gotten my ass handed to my by guys shooting 308s when I was running a whiz bang caliber. Its all about the shooter and his knowledge of his system. A poor shooter will still be a poor shooters when he switches to a hot caliber, a good one will be pehaps a little better. But, one has to miss a lot of targets by very small marigins with a 308 to see much difference.

The reason I often recommend a 308 for a new shooter goes alot deeper than cheap ammo. Barrel life and learning a lot are tops. You can learn a lot from shooting a 308, and you will not appreciate the advantages of other options until you do learn these things.

An inferior shooter will not know these things about his rifle, because he doesng have enough time in to get data and learn what is important.

 

[Mustafa]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

Rifle's Only did a match a few years ago where they required everyone to shoot the same .308 ammo and some kind of Glock. The result was that the same people won as when the there were no restrictions.

 

[blklabs]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

What if someone shows up with a 308 running the 208 Amax? I have shot that at a match before and it gives me 6.5 wind. Personally, I think that everyone should be in the same class and just compete. Everyone knows who the 308 guys are and it's not hard to pick yourself out of the score card and compare yourself to the other 308 shooters.

I would still put my money on Mr. Bynum in a calcutta when he is shooting his 308 AI that has over 100k rounds on it than just about anybody else, just saying.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

gugubica: I agree with 97% of your statement. A whizbang caliber doesn't "make" the system. I have, however, seen firsthand, a great shooters get beaten by good shooters because of caliber alone.

In my post, I used the word "inferior", which probably wasn't the best choice....inferior to the GREAT shooter...not simply "inferior"....is what I meant.

That said, a great shooter can work a 308 to ~1000 yards. Past about that, and it is exceedingly easy to miss many shots by very small margins....margins the 7WSM isn't phased by at all.

 

[Ouch!!]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

I shot a match with my .243, very first match and alot of things learned. I shot 115dtacs at 3080 and made 2 hits!! I was new, thought my hotrod caliber would make up for my lack of shooting experience. I learned really quick that there is more to comp shooting then a ballistically superior rifle. I shot a little shoot last weekend. Used someone elses .308 with no unknown dope. Had 90% first round hits on steel from 425-1100 with a stock remington, a stock I couldnt get behind, awful winds.

I really think if a great shooter is shooting his .308 well hes still going to be hard to beat by an ok shooter with a 7wsm. That 7wsm may help that shooter pick up 2-4,5 more targets but not enough to blow out a great shooter with his well known system.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

Back to the point of speed causing damage to the steel. I learned that the hard way.

In July, I sent a 55 gr. out of a .22-250 from 200 to 600 yards. It pitted my steel pretty bad at 200 and 300. I thought I had faulty steel. Nope, I've got 3780 MV

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mustafa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rifle's Only did a match a few years ago where they required everyone to shoot the same .308 ammo and some kind of Glock. The result was that the same people won as when the there were no restrictions. </div></div>

I didn't do so bad in that 308 only match, it was fun, but didn't care for the ammo that much.

The 3100 fps rule for us in AZ is strictly for it not to beat the hell out of our steel, we only shoot out to 700yds and have very little wind, so a 308 can do well here.

 

[TEAMSENDIT]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

guys this wasn't meant to be a debate over calibers and the differences. i can honestly say 90% of the time the conditions won't eliminate the 308 as being a super competitive. I personally have placed just as well with a 308 as i have with a 6x47 or 7-08, the bottom line is it's dependant on the shooter not the rifle. I can tell you for sure the shooters out there like francis kuehl (sorry if misspelled) could be me with a 30-30. His fundamentals are just that much better. You can only make up so much with having a better caliber that gives you more room for error on wind calls and distance ( let alone the shooter doing his part with trigger control and follow through).

The bottom line is if you think your not wining because the guy that beat you had a 243 and you had a 308 you don't understand this game. Ballistics only gain you so much, and they damn sure don't make you a great shooer. Only good practice in all sorts of conditions and under stress will truly help. you just can't replace rounds down range with ballistics it just doesn't work like that.


to my original point i am glad to find out the speed is what hurts the steel!!!

 

[MTETM]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

Scott,

We shot a match last weekend...Speed leaves a mark! I used AR 400 and 500 targets from 200 to 1050. The 25-06's sending 110 and 115's at 3200+ dimpled all the plates to 600'ish. We will not disallow them, but plan on replacements when things get bad. The noticeable damage was to the small 3/8" targets at < 200. Several of them show warping/bending from the larger caliber impacts...
Again, price of the game. We are going to start holding a few dollars back for target and target stand replacement.

 

[cruze5]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

when i shot with PMG earlier in the year, one person's loads were around 3100 or 3200. (i don't remember the caliber)

1. it was damaging(pitting of thats what you call it) the targets
2. he kept knocking the targets over so they would have to make the range safe go down range, fix/repair the targets then start over...

they updated the website so that that velocity was no longer permitted on steel targets

just my experience with high velocity and steel targets

 

[j-huskey]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

Some military bases and other ranges have range fans/impact areas versus berms and the speed limit is for distance safety issues with many of those, as far back as when Sierra bullets were starting in Match ammunition versus the old 118 ammunition.

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

Scott, are you using AR500 steel on the course?

 

[fargo007]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

Mostly preaching to the choir here.

It's not really about the targets, but the benjamins.

He who owns the targets gets the say-so on what gets shot at them, and how fast. And that's that. Consider that even a small training company or range may have thousands invested in steel targets. These are at minimum an asset, and more likely an investment. There is everything to lose and absolutely nothing to gain.

They cannot be 'repaired' if they are perforated or dramatically pitted. The target is a total loss.

Bohem is 100% correct that .223's inside 250Y are the absolute worst.

--Fargo007

 

[a_bishop]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cruze5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when i shot with PMG earlier in the year, one person's loads were around 3100 or 3200. (i don't remember the caliber)

1. it was damaging(pitting of thats what you call it) the targets
2. he kept knocking the targets over so they would have to make the range safe go down range, fix/repair the targets then start over...

they updated the website so that that velocity was no longer permitted on steel targets
just my experience with high velocity and steel targets </div></div>

Sounds like some 6 crusader action

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

95% of our steel is AR500.

 

[DocB]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

Ouch,

We use 3000f/s at the HardRock matches, and specify nothing stronger than a 300 WM as far as energy goes. AR 500 1/2" steel at 600-1k, as I recall 3/8ths on a free-recoiling swinger at 1k. Smaller calibers than .308 are harder on the steel at the higher velocities. I (and others) left divots in the 1k backer steel (3/8" 4' X 8' plates, don't recall hardness) with .223, 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm calibers when the starting velocity of rounds exceeded 3100f/s. At shorter ranges, pretty much leaves eroded patterns on the steel.

Besides, bullets start poofing above 3100f/s. It gets real tough to explain to someone why they got 0 when they've been shooting 10's or X's.

HTH,
DocB

 

[Woodlanddude]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

Not only is steel not cheap, it can be hard to get to some places to place targets, so you have to protect time and money investments. Even 7wsm's can kill steel at surprising ranges. I see some above quoting the death of the 308 (and matches)and I heard these cries years ago. If it is so unpopular I would imagine we would not get 150+ people sign up for a 308 only match or even more than that for an Issue rifle and ammo match, which both have happened in the last 2 years. It is fun, tests the shooters skill and advantages are less even for those bringing thier own guns. The 308 is still a capable rifle for its class. But, for each the world has a sky of a different shade of blue. Enjoy the shade you choose. I suspect ASC will fill 308 matches for a while to come.

 

[Wil]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sometimes I quote myself...</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not just a function of speed so much as a function of speed and sectional density of the bullet.

For example... launch a .308 155gr at 3000fps and observe the impact. Launch a .223 77gr at 3000fps and observe the crater on the steel....

</div></div>

 

[KYS]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LR-WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My thoughts are that the keys to success in promoting tactical matches are inclusion and participation. The more limits that are placed, the less participants you'll have. If this is the goal great, if not, steel and stands are depreciated item's that allowances should be made for in match fee's. </div></div>

Very well put. </div></div>

Not when your running a $1500.00 Spin Drift automated target..... I understand why its done but you also have to be aware of whats around you if there was a miss.

 

[taliv]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

to put what KYS said into perspective, 79% of the match fees collected for the Fall PMG match went towards 2 auto-poppers and 2 static steel targets. It's not that we don't consider targets wear items. We do. We just need them to last longer.

btw, the velocity limit was in the rules for our Spring match too. I just made it bold, red and a larger font for Fall so people couldn't claim they didn't see it again.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

Most of our steel is 1/2" AR500, some AR400 because the supplier made a mistake selling us a 4x8 sheet of it.

Our rules is 6mm to 30cal @ 3100FPS max.

Why not .22? Because it's a bitch to spot hits on steel at distance.

Why only up to 30cal......338LM on steel inside 400 to 500 yards don't last very long, the plate would, but not the moving parts that make some targets reactive.

Why a 3100FPS? Well I've seen what a 300WM with 155s going 3100FPS does to AR plate inside 500yds.

 

[TEAMSENDIT]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Woodlanddude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not only is steel not cheap, it can be hard to get to some places to place targets, so you have to protect time and money investments. Even 7wsm's can kill steel at surprising ranges. I see some above quoting the death of the 308 (and matches)and I heard these cries years ago. If it is so unpopular I would imagine we would not get 150+ people sign up for a 308 only match or even more than that for an Issue rifle and ammo match, which both have happened in the last 2 years. It is fun, tests the shooters skill and advantages are less even for those bringing thier own guns. The 308 is still a capable rifle for its class. But, for each the world has a sky of a different shade of blue. Enjoy the shade you choose. I suspect ASC will fill 308 matches for a while to come.</div></div>

I actually really like the idea of a match where everybody shoots the same rifle. that fn match you guys did sounds awesome. I used to think it sucked honestly but the more i shoot in matches the more i enjoy the pure marksmen's abilities and not giving a advantage with ballistics. even though i good and well know skill beats ballistics damn near everytime.

I think maybe i will put on a 308/223 only match i like it.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

I would be all over a .308 only match. Sounds like a great time!

 

[Jaxdialation]

Re: Why 3100fps speed limit???

I think a 338LM only match would be more fun. I'd also like to try black powder long range.