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Why am I having so many misfires?

callen3615

callen3615

Sergeant
Minuteman
Jan 27, 2010
97
13
36
Peidmont, NC
#1
Hey guys, I have been reloading for about a year now and I have noticed a growing problem. The first couple batches of handloads I made worked fine. And about 2 months later I got a hangfire, fastforward 6 months and almost every other round fails to go off.

These are .308 handloads shot through a 700p. I am using the lee classic loader. I didnt want to get financially involved in reloading, and this is exactly why. If you arent familiar with the classic loader it uses hand held dies and you have to literally hammer primers into the pockets. I origially thought that my primers were to blame, winchester, but after pulling about 20 bullets I noticed that non of the primers actually fired. I have never had my rifle fail to fire any other factory ammo so I do not suspect the firing pin is to blame, actually I can lift the bolt and restrike a misfire and it still wont go off. I am tumbling my brass, my pockets are clean and media free. I am using an assortment of brass, winchester, remington, pmc, and I dont see a trend to suspect the brass is at fault. I check my primer depth on every round I make. They are always flush, maybe .02-.04in past the rim of the case. I am using 4064 IMR around 41-42 grains.
I can get pics up of whatever you want, I could really use some help.
Im at my wits end here, ready to give my reloading stuff to a friend and just by factory, can anyone help me out?
 
#2
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are always flush, maybe .02-.04in past the rim of the case. </div></div>

But are the anvils seated against the bottom of the primer pocket?
 
#3
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

Having spent my youth, circa late 70's/early 80's hammering rounds through a classic lee loader it's entirely possible to make good/reliable ammo with one....that said, reloading simply isn't for everyone.

Not getting "financially involved" would prevent you, I suppose, from having a tool to measure how much you are sizing the brass. I'm betting there's a headspace problem where the brass is over- sized and thus being pushed forward by the firing pin but not being ignited. The sized brass needs to fit the chamber a LOT better than that.....
 
#5
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having spent my youth, circa late 70's/early 80's hammering rounds through a classic lee loader it's entirely possible to make good/reliable ammo with one....that said, reloading simply isn't for everyone.

Not getting "financially involved" would prevent you, I suppose, from having a tool to measure how much you are sizing the brass. I'm betting there's a headspace problem where the brass is over- sized and thus being pushed forward by the firing pin but not being ignited. The sized brass needs to fit the chamber a LOT better than that..... </div></div>

I resize the case with the lee classic loader, measure them, and then trim them to around 2.04 inches
 
#6
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm betting there's a headspace problem where the brass is over- sized and thus being pushed forward by the firing pin but not being ignited. The sized brass needs to fit the chamber a LOT better than that..... </div></div>

Its funny that you say that, I didnt have any problems until I bought a wilson case trimmer and started trimming my cases. Could I trim them too short?
 
#7
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having spent my youth, circa late 70's/early 80's hammering rounds through a classic lee loader it's entirely possible to make good/reliable ammo with one....that said, reloading simply isn't for everyone.

Not getting "financially involved" would prevent you, I suppose, from having a tool to measure how much you are sizing the brass. I'm betting there's a headspace problem where the brass is over- sized and thus being pushed forward by the firing pin but not being ignited. The sized brass needs to fit the chamber a LOT better than that..... </div></div>

I resize the case with the lee classic loader, measure them, and then trim them to around 2.04 inches </div></div>

Are you measuring the set back of the shoulder?

And, how are you measuring?
 
#9
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On your .308 cartridge, shoulder set back and trimmed length are two entirely different things..... </div></div>

Ok, I have only measured overall case length.
 
#10
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having spent my youth, circa late 70's/early 80's hammering rounds through a classic lee loader it's entirely possible to make good/reliable ammo with one....that said, reloading simply isn't for everyone.

Not getting "financially involved" would prevent you, I suppose, from having a tool to measure how much you are sizing the brass. I'm betting there's a headspace problem where the brass is over- sized and thus being pushed forward by the firing pin but not being ignited. The sized brass needs to fit the chamber a LOT better than that..... </div></div>

I resize the case with the lee classic loader, measure them, and then trim them to around 2.04 inches </div></div>

Are you measuring the set back of the shoulder?

And, how are you measuring?
</div></div>
I am unfamiliar with measuring the shoulder. I am using a set of digital calipers. Why is the shoulder important?
 
#11
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On your .308 cartridge, shoulder set back and trimmed length are two entirely different things..... </div></div>

Ok, I have only measured overall case length. </div></div>

Two things could be "obviously" wrong:

Primers are not seated correctly and thus the anvil inside the primer is not facilitating the boom.

Or, the case is over-sized (read sized too short from the case head to the shoulder datum), and thus the firing pin is pushing the whole case forward in the chamber but not striking hard enough to ignite the boom.

If it's the latter, it's probably a good thing it won't ignite, because that's some severe headspace issues. The boom you'd get is not the boom you'd want.

You need to measure the set back that you are putting into the brass with that sizing method......
 
#12
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

Here is my process of reloading. Decap case, hammer case with rubber mallet into the resizing die. Then I measure the overall length of the case, trim OAL to 2.004, then I tumble them. Next I set primer in priming die, set resizing die with case on priming die, insert rod into case and hammer primer into the pocket. then I measure out powder on my scale, insert powder into case, then seat bullet into case.
 
#13
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am unfamiliar with measuring the shoulder. I am using a set of digital calipers. Why is the shoulder important? </div></div>

Please stop reloading now before you hurt yourself or someone else, and gain more knowledge about the basics of reloading. Headspace and shoulder set back are reloading 101.
 
#14
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On your .308 cartridge, shoulder set back and trimmed length are two entirely different things..... </div></div>

Ok, I have only measured overall case length. </div></div>



Or, the case is over-sized (read sized too short from the case head to the shoulder datum), and thus the firing pin is pushing the whole case forward in the chamber but not striking hard enough to ignite the boom.

</div></div>

This would explain why I cant just hit the primer again and ignite to powder, but I have shot 100s of reloads this way and never had one detonate on me. For example I load 10 rounds, 6 shoot and 4 go click.
 
#15
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am unfamiliar with measuring the shoulder. I am using a set of digital calipers. Why is the shoulder important? </div></div>

Please stop reloading now before you hurt yourself or someone else, and gain more knowledge about the basics of reloading. Headspace and shoulder set back are reloading 101. </div></div>

I am going to do some reading on setting the shoulder back. What is a good tool to use in doing this?
 
#16
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I am going to do some reading on setting the shoulder back. What is a good tool to use in doing this? </div></div>

Lot's of good stuff on the market, but I hate getting "financially involved" too, so I make most of my stuff......

0210112219a95296846.jpg
 
#18
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This would explain why I cant just hit the primer again and ignite to powder, but I have shot 100s of reloads this way and never had one detonate on me. For example I load 10 rounds, 6 shoot and 4 go click. </div></div>

Really dude, buy a press, even a CHEAP one, or USED one.

Learn how to use it correctly, and I'm betting HEAVY odds your woes will simply go away.

Just be be sure, have you fired factory rounds since you started having misfires with the reloads, and are absolutely sure it's NOT the rifle?
 
#19
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

Find someone local with a press and have them run a few cases through their sizer, then load and shoot, use all your components.
This will isolate it to your sizing procedure.
I to, think that you are sizing inconsistant to the shoulder, the bangs are the longer ones that are not as well hammered.
 
#21
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, its not the rifle. If I have to buy a press I will just stop reloading. Reloading is not for the light of wallets. </div></div>

Can't have you stop reloading so here's my suggestions:

-Absolutely buy a tool to measure casehead to shoulder datum.

-switch to a plastic hammer instead of the rubber one.

-invest more time into your sizing procedure and measure your sized cases against the datum length of fired brass. This will be trial and error, and .001" to .003" of shoulder set back is going to be TOUGH to achieve consistantly with a hammer.

I'm betting though, you could find a decent press for very, very cheap. A set of used dies, and you are rocking. Hell, if I had an extra press I wasn't using I'd just give it to you to end the suffering....
 
#22
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, well here is the video that taught me how to reload. My setup is almost exactly like this. The only difference is that I tumble and trim OAL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ5eq-gwwYQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN82tXxU-dw

So the only thing I need to add to this process is bumping the shoulder back?
</div></div>

Stick with factory ammo if this is your process. Those videos are a prime example of how not to reload.

Read the stickies by Tresmon and invest in good dies, a press, a primer tool, a mic, and some time with a mentor. Your current reloading method may be injurious or worse.
 
#23
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

Reloading doesn't make your wallet light unless you choose to make it so. Consider that the cheapest that you'll find quality 308 match ammo is approximately $1.00 per round, not inclusive of shipping. That means an output of at least $1000 for 1000 rounds of ammo. Now, consider the following:

Nosler 175's - $246/1k
Wolf Primers - $16/1k
Ramshot TAC - $125/8lbs
Winchester Brass - $329/1k
--------------------------
You are at approximately $716/1k rounds, not inclusive of shipping charges. You should be able to get 6-10 loads on the brass, so spread the cost as necessary. You are saving, using Aggie math, $250 per 1000 rounds of match grade ammunition...more than enough to buy a lee challenger press.
 
#25
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, its not the rifle. If I have to buy a press I will just stop reloading. Reloading is not for the light of wallets. </div></div>

I can reload for about half of what I can shoot factory match ammo for. Lets say you save 50 cents a round (conservative when FGMM is $1.25 a round. In 200 rounds you can break even on a 100 dollar used/cheap press.

Are you telling me you don't shoot 200 rounds in a 6 month time frame?
 
#27
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

Yes yes only us rich guys with deep pockets are suited to reloading. Do you have any friends? Can you make any friends? I got my start at 13 using a neighbors old Lyman setup. But that was back in the days people knew their neighbors and spoke to them.
You have loaded hundreds with the old Lee banger dies, well I have loaded tens of thousands and the only cartridge I have ever had misfire trouble with is the TCU wildcats. They are prone to misfires because it is easy to crush/push back the slight shoulder. You have pushed your shoulder back too far and if you load that brass much like that you will have head seperation pretty quick. Reloading equipment is cheap all that I have ever bought I still have. It is made to last a lifetime. It is an investment not just some pair of channel-locks you buy at the store. You have made some pretty silly statements here in this thread such as if you have to buy a press you'll quit, not wanting to get financially involved. I suggest you quit now. I suspect you are not cut out for reloading mentally or physically.
 
#28
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys, I have been reloading for about a year now and I have noticed a growing problem. </div></div>

I have not read the hole thread, sorry.

Just an FYI,...
Do you clean/lube your weapons where you reload? If you use WD40 an other chem's and they get anywhere near a primer or powder, you'll have issues that will haunt you down the road. Once powder or primers are contaminated with some oils or solvents, their done being reliable/trust worthy.
 
#29
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

There are really good books ('The ABC's of Reloading' is a classic), manuals, and alot of info on the web answering any question you could ever have concerning reloading. You can find used presses etc.. way down the line on internet bidding sites and forums. The rewards are worth the initial investment, a hundred fold.
 
#32
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

You can actually crush primers while seating and will cause misfires. The times I have seen it done was on a press by an individual that thought you had to seat them with all your might.
 
#33
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

If you're using your own fired cases the shoulders and head space are not a problem. Your Lee Classic Loader is a neck sizing tool so it cannot affect the shoulders at all. I would prefer a plastic mallet myself but I can see no difference in what changing hammers from rubber to plastic, etc, would do for you in a neck sizing die. ??

You haven't exactly said if you are getting good firing pin hits or not, and that does make a difference. ?? If you are, it's likely the primers themselves are bad - a bad lot or they may have become contaminated with oily fingers, etc; it's uncommon, but both happen. And, I wonder if you have kept your primers stored in the original containers or poured them loosely into another container for storage? That would open you for contamination.

Seating primers correctly requires the top of the caps to be from 3 to 5 thou below flush with the case head in order to firmly seat the anvil AND lightly pre-stress the explosive pellet. Seating too high will cushion the firing pin, seating too deeply will normally crush the pellet; both extremes will cause failure-to-fire or hang-fire events. But, unlike seating primers slowly on a press, if you seat too deeply with that "hammer" driven system you WILL set it off.

 
#34
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

Mallets/hammers are not conducive to good reloading. Give up your present technique and buy factory ammo, or... buy some decent reloading equipment. It's really not that expensive for good stuff.

Find someone to help you get setup the right way.
 
#36
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're using your own fired cases the shoulders and head space are not a problem. Your Lee Classic Loader is a neck sizing tool so it cannot affect the shoulders at all.</div></div>

Then they've changed 'em since I was a kid....pretty sure I recall the ones I've used for bottle necks did infact full length size 'em, thus my assumption they still did.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I would prefer a plastic mallet myself but I can see no difference in what changing hammers from rubber to plastic, etc, would do for you in a neck sizing die. ??
</div></div>

It would only take a smidge of mechanical aptitude to realize a plastic hammer would be far more efficient than a rubber one for driving something to as precise a depth as possible, in this situation....obviously your depth perception's not deep enough to grasp the concept but you covered your ass well by saying oh yeah me too.
 
#38
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok so how about this kit?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=423081

and this die set?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=148525

Thanks for the help. </div></div>


Now you know your bottom line....

That stuff is leaps and bounds ahead of what you got now.

When's the neck gun show in your AO?

Gotta be one close to you soon.

Go forth and look for decent used stuff that's not all beat to hell.

There's a better than good chance you can find better quality gear a lot cheaper than what you are willing to pay for the lee stuff.

An FYI, the RCBS warranty is LIFETIME, and it doesn't matter who currently owns it. Look for a press that's in good shape and used dies can be had for CHEAP. If it's messed up RCBS will take of you.

And to satisfy the contaminated primer guys post if you've been careful with 'em or not.....
 
#39
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is just fine for any beginer and will last a very very long time.
You need to order this while you are ordering and read it cover to cover several times.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=217655 </div></div>

I dont need anything to measure/bump the shoulder?








And I dont lube my primers with wd40 or anything. lol
 
#40
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

Obvious, your little kit is good, thousands of casual reloaders have used it in total satisfaction. I have three of 'em because I could pick 'em up cheap and wanted to see how well they work...and they work fine. It sounds like suggesting you use what I use would not only be pointless but would price you out of the activity and that would be silly.

I came back to give you a link to a site dealing with primers I just stumbled on, you may find it helpful;

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/ST_mamotaip_200909/index2.html
 
#41
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I dont need anything to measure/bump the shoulder?

</div></div>

Yeah you still need that....

You can do it safely without, with simply a magic marker and some dedicated fussy time setting up your sizing die, but it's best to actually KNOW how much you are bumping via a measuring device.
 
#42
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I dont need anything to measure/bump the shoulder?

</div></div>

Yeah you still need that....

You can do it safely without, with simply a magic marker and some dedicated fussy time setting up your sizing die, but it's best to actually KNOW how much you are bumping via a measuring device. </div></div>

Is there something compatible with that press I posted or will I need something independent?
 
#43
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is just fine for any beginer and will last a very very long time.
You need to order this while you are ordering and read it cover to cover several times.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=217655 </div></div>

I dont need anything to measure/bump the shoulder?








And I dont lube my primers with wd40 or anything. lol </div></div>

If you will read a great deal of books on reloading you will probably be able to make some nice little gadgets to measure and figure things out with.. One trick for setting up a die to bump proper is trial and error using a candle to smoke the neck of your brass. That little trick is mentioned in many reloading books and manuals. I have smoked bullets to figure seating depth many years ago. I have aquired my "high dollar" tools over many years of reloading. I built my loading room like Johnny Cash built that Cadillac.
 
#44
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

Ok I am about to pull the trigger on this kit and these dies. I may get a shoulder measuring kit when they are in stock, I will probably use the trick with the lighter first. So is this all I need to reload? I dont want to go back and have to get something else.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=423081

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=148525

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=271467
 
#46
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok I am about to pull the trigger on this kit and these dies. I may get a shoulder measuring kit when they are in stock, I will probably use the trick with the lighter first. So is this all I need to reload? I dont want to go back and have to get something else.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=423081

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=148525

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=271467 </div></div>

RE: the last item you listed there. Didn't you say you already have a wilson case trimmer? That lee item is a caliber specific add on for their cheapy case trimmer thing. I'm assuming your after a shell holder for the press, no?
 
#48
About your chosen loading "kit"...

Okay, you were posting while I was posting to you.

You do NOT "need" anything to measure case shoulders, not at this stage of your reloading. That can be useful, a little, but none of us had any way of doing that for a LOONG time and we got along just fine. We geeks too often think everyone needs what we use but that's not true more often than not. Such measuring tools are really for reloading geeks like me, not the guy who's just trying to save a few bucks by making a little hunting or practice ammo.

I would suggest you consider getting Lee's "standard" kit instead of that one with the 'quick change' bushings. It's 'nice' to change dies in a five seconds - I suppose - but dies need only be hand tight in the press and you can screw-swap them in less than a minute, and the bushings can get expensive as you add other calibers later. And the Challenger presses in both kits are the same otherwise. Both that press (and those dies/shell holder) will do you fine IF you follow directions and keep the long bolt that holds the two-part lever toggle block together; if it's <span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span> kept tight that toggle can break!

BUT, that case length gage device you list is only half of what you need to trim cases. You must also have the seperately packaged case neck cutter and lock stud, together they works with any cartridge length gages.

If you run into trouble later, drop me a PM note. I've been doing this since '65 and have learned a few things, part of which is common sense for what is <span style="text-decoration: underline">really</span> needed to safely reload!

Jim
 
#50
Re: Why am I having so many misfires?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's the inspiration for the measuring tool I made....it's in stock at Sinclair.

Hornady HK-66 Kit........ </div></div>

Cool, I might have to talk my machining instructor to help me make some on the lathe.




So do I need anything else besides the products listed above?

I also have a wilson case trimmer.
 
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