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Why are Semi's not as forgiving as Bolt's?

Cag40Navy

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 7, 2013
16
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Howdy, im really new to the whole concept of "forgiveness" when it comes to long range, accuracy shooting. I have been reading and this seems to be the norm... I love bolts but I don't understand why bolts are more "forgiving" and Semi's are a pain to learn on. Would you guys please educate me as to why this is the case and how the learning curve is different? Thank you in advance!
 
I use the same techniques for both and have for tens of thousands of rounds through both. Never seen a difference. You're pulling a trigger and following through. People will always look for ways to justify poor marksmanship though.
 
I use the same techniques for both and have for tens of thousands of rounds through both. Never seen a difference. You're pulling a trigger and following through. People will always look for ways to justify poor marksmanship though.

Not quite. A semi is harder to shoot because it exposes flaws in your fundamentals. There are 3 distinct recoil pulses with a semi versus the single pulse with a bolt gun.
 
There's a lot more moving parts in semi's, to be obvious, which equate to more vibrations. If a shooter's basic firing fundamentals are sloppy then the groups fired from a semi will not be as tight as they would normally be being shot from a bolt action. It's essentially all down to vibrations.
 
So in other words if you're a crappy shooter... Exactly what I was getting at. If you have correct technique it doesn't matter how many recoil pulses their are.
 
I developed a flinching problem and it shows up horrible with my ar's. I went from sub moa to about 2 moa on a semi auto but still shoot 1/2-3/4 moa with a bolt gun.
 
I use the same techniques for both and have for tens of thousands of rounds through both. Never seen a difference. You're pulling a trigger and following through. People will always look for ways to justify poor marksmanship though.

Not quite. A semi is harder to shoot because it exposes flaws in your fundamentals. There are 3 distinct recoil pulses with a semi versus the single pulse with a bolt gun.

So in other words if you're a crappy shooter... Exactly what I was getting at. If you have correct technique it doesn't matter how many recoil pulses their are.

There's a lot more moving parts in semi's, to be obvious, which equate to more vibrations. If a shooter's basic firing fundamentals are sloppy then the groups fired from a semi will not be as tight as they would normally be being shot from a bolt action. It's essentially all down to vibrations.

I developed a flinching problem and it shows up horrible with my ar's. I went from sub moa to about 2 moa on a semi auto but still shoot 1/2-3/4 moa with a bolt gun.

So are you guys saying that a semi-automatic rifle is as accurate as a bolt gun and it is the shooter's fault for not getting the same accuracy? I just want to make sure I understand what is being said.
 
So are you guys saying that a semi-automatic rifle is as accurate as a bolt gun and it is the shooter's fault for not getting the same accuracy? I just want to make sure I understand what is being said.

That is a whole different subject and has nothing to do with shooting technique. In short a bolt will be more consistently accurate because it locks up more consistently.

What the OP is asking about is in two theoretically identical accurate rifles should the semi be harder to shoot. And the answer is no, if you have the fundamentals down pat.
 
I use the same techniques for both and have for tens of thousands of rounds through both. Never seen a difference. You're pulling a trigger and following through. People will always look for ways to justify poor marksmanship though.

(Not trying to take the thread off the rails here...) What is follow through on a rifle?
 
I use the same techniques for both and have for tens of thousands of rounds through both. Never seen a difference. You're pulling a trigger and following through. People will always look for ways to justify poor marksmanship though.
Pretty much the same for me too.
The BA is more accurate though.
 
For clarification, as posted above, there are at least TWO potential issues at play here:
- Semi-Auto Platform vs. Bolt Gun Platform, strictly a hardware issue
- Shooting Fundamental / Techniques, strictly a shooter issue

Also per above:
- A semi-auto platform has a lot of issues that a bolt gun platform does not, multiple recoil impulses, multiple moving parts, different ergonomics etc. This makes it more difficult to get the rifle to shoot (Hardware), and harder to consistently deliver a proper shooting technique (Shooter).

Biggest things with the semi-auto:
Lock Time - more time/opportunity for trigger pull to influence the shot
Multiple Recoil Impulses - more opportunity for a poor position and lack of follow through to influence the shot

As the saying goes "it takes more to drive a semi-auto then a bolt gun". The "driving" part is basically saying your shooting fundamentals/techniques need to be 100%.

Going back and forth between my bolt guns and semi-autos, I tend to appreciate how much more effort I put into my technique, it is easy to get lazy just shooting bolt guns!
 
At the end of the day, if you execute the firing task correctly, with strict adherence to the marksmanship fundamentals the results will be the same with either platform. If your shooting position is sloppy, or you fail to follow through until the recoil subsides, the semi auto will extract a larger penalty.

Completely incorrect. The results between platforms are not the same. The bolt action rifle is much more accurate than a semi-automatic. Period.

If it was as you say, then why was there only 1-2 competitors at the last Sniper's Hide Cup running a semi-automatic? I guess all of the other competitors are wrong and did not want the advantage of semi-automatic?
 
That is a whole different subject and has nothing to do with shooting technique. In short a bolt will be more consistently accurate because it locks up more consistently.

What the OP is asking about is in two theoretically identical accurate rifles should the semi be harder to shoot. And the answer is no, if you have the fundamentals down pat.

There are a few other things that can make a SA more finicky, but overall there are advantages and disadvantages to both systems. I would say that in my experience, Gas Guns can open up more than a bolt gun when you have inconsistent load on the handgaurd (bi-pod load, sling, etc). A combination of heavy bi-pod load and a heavy firing schedule (heat the gun up) can cause some issues. I think this is more of problem with long rails attached to the bbl nut, rather than direct mount to the upper, but most bolt rifles you don't have to worry about how much you load the bi-pods outside of proper position.

If guys are having trouble at the courses we run out at Sniper Country (and their other fundamentals are good), we have them try zero bi-pod load and work from there.
 
Completely incorrect. The results between platforms are not the same. The bolt action rifle is much more accurate than a semi-automatic. Period.

If it was as you say, then why was there only 1-2 competitors at the last Sniper's Hide Cup running a semi-automatic? I guess all of the other competitors are wrong and did not want the advantage of semi-automatic?

I think it is you that is not correct saying, "the bolt action rifle is much more accurate than a semi-automatic". John Feamster wrote over 20 years ago in his book Black Magic about winning with an AR in bench rest competitions which suggested as many have since discovered the match conditioned AR can be as accurate as any similar quality bolt gun could be discerned in practical shooting from the shoulder with bone/artificial support. Certainly, no one today with any experiences with these platforms would say the bolt gun is much more accurate. In my experience, the accuracy divergence between similarly match conditioned platforms would be described as being minuscule.
 
Someone tell Jon Lester his wins with a semi must have been more about luck than knowing how to use a semi properly...
 
I think it is you that is not correct saying, "the bolt action rifle is much more accurate than a semi-automatic". John Feamster wrote over 20 years ago in his book Black Magic about winning with an AR in bench rest competitions which suggested as many have since discovered the match conditioned AR can be as accurate as any similar quality bolt gun could be discerned in practical shooting from the shoulder with bone/artificial support. Certainly, no one today with any experiences with these platforms would say the bolt gun is much more accurate. In my experience, the accuracy divergence between similarly match conditioned platforms would be described as being minuscule.

Spoken like a true bench rest shooter. Taking everything impractical and measure it through a very narrowly construed set of variables and then make a blanket statement. My statement was more general in nature based on general marksmanship conditions in real world practical rifle competitions, not bolting everything down with impractical gear.

So what you are saying is that ALL of the competitors across American competing in the growing sport of Tactical Rifle (also known as Precision Rifle Series) are wrong and have the wrong equipment? I mean, with the advantages of the semi-automatic rifle in reloading when compared to the bolt action, why wouldn't everyone shoot a semi-automatic?

To be clear, the real reason is that bolt action rifles, by their very nature, are more accurate. You have to spend a LOT more money getting an accurate semiautomatic to perform on par with an average or moderate bolt action rifle. You are dealing with a lot more variables and problems with a semiautomatic and all of the steps to increase accuracy are simply to overcome those problems. Take some similarly priced rifles, the bolt action is more accurate, period.
 
Why are Semi's not as forgiving as Bolt's?

If we're talking "real world" then perhaps the lesson is that practical precision rifle shooting is about discerning the difference between what matters and what doesn't matter:

Can you hold the accuracy difference between a semi and a bolt gun? How many mph of wind is the equivalent accuracy difference between the two platforms?
 
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Can't jump to that conclusion: It has nothing to do with inherent accuracy available from the system.

Actually, you can. Because competition brings out the best shooters and the best equipment. That is a very easy conclusion to make. Remember, these are general statements. You can always say "this special rifle x" outshoots or outperforms "this rifle y". But in general, you would be hard pressed to ask top competitors to use equipment that they feel are not adequate.

Who knows, maybe over time the semi-automatics can overcome their issues with accuracy. I will go with what my own experience tells me and also look to the top professionals and what they are using. Those are always good guides to successful shooting accuracy.

Hope to see you all at the next Sniper's Hide Cup with a semi-automatic and see how you do. You guys can all prove it yourself. I look forward to it.
 
He uses both depending on the match COF. Why? Because unlike somebody else he and others here know there are advantages and disadvantages to BOTH platforms so you run whatever tool will do the job best.
 
Why are Semi's not as forgiving as Bolt's?

Because competition brings out the best shooters and the best equipment. That is a very easy conclusion to make.
That might be an argument in your favor as to why we don't see semi autos in Benchrest competition, but you can see why it's not valid in your chosen context of the Sniper's Hide Cup, right?!
 
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Look... I can pull photo's also... Sorry Jon, lol :p

543532_326556657462332_1892865523_n.jpg

1901565_498975416887121_1595324541_n.jpg

Or how about this comparison between bolt and semi... Gee... they both seem to be performing the same...

1043845_384883214963009_1891992092_n.jpg
 
This, I can agree with. Thank you.

Whether you agree or not your conclusion that one is more accurate than another is IMO still false. Most shooters will go with a bolt because they want every advantage possible including the one which doesn't magnify any errors in technique. It doesn't mean they're bad shooters but simply that they're eliminating as many possible things that can go wrong as possible. Also, some COF aren't semi friendly in that they want every transition to have the bolt locked back which can prove difficult when you're using a self feeding system and it requires either a) loading just enough per magazine to make it lock itself back and hope the last shot isn't thrown, or b) ejecting a live round.
 
Why are Semi's not as forgiving as Bolt's?

That is a leading question counselor. Nice try.
LOL!

But not all questions that can be answered with a 'yes' or 'no' are leading. A leading question must suggest or contain it's own answer. Here the question asks whether you can see a reason that the question itself does not suggest or contain. Therefore the question is not a leading question.

Nice try back 'atcha. ?
 
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Whether you agree or not your conclusion that one is more accurate than another is IMO still false. Most shooters will go with a bolt because they want every advantage possible including the one which doesn't magnify any errors in technique. It doesn't mean they're bad shooters but simply that they're eliminating as many possible things that can go wrong as possible. Also, some COF aren't semi friendly in that they want every transition to have the bolt locked back which can prove difficult when you're using a self feeding system and it requires either a) loading just enough per magazine to make it lock itself back and hope the last shot isn't thrown, or b) ejecting a live round.

These are all very good points. Thank you. I am glad someone with experience can discuss here.

Maybe I will make the 10/2/14 Upper Nisqually Gun Club match and shoot with you? I am working on getting permissions from the War Department and fly up to visit my father.
 
Spoken like a true bench rest shooter. Taking everything impractical and measure it through a very narrowly construed set of variables and then make a blanket statement. My statement was more general in nature based on general marksmanship conditions in real world practical rifle competitions, not bolting everything down with impractical gear.

So what you are saying is that ALL of the competitors across American competing in the growing sport of Tactical Rifle (also known as Precision Rifle Series) are wrong and have the wrong equipment? I mean, with the advantages of the semi-automatic rifle in reloading when compared to the bolt action, why wouldn't everyone shoot a semi-automatic?

To be clear, the real reason is that bolt action rifles, by their very nature, are more accurate. You have to spend a LOT more money getting an accurate semiautomatic to perform on par with an average or moderate bolt action rifle. You are dealing with a lot more variables and problems with a semiautomatic and all of the steps to increase accuracy are simply to overcome those problems. Take some similarly priced rifles, the bolt action is more accurate, period.


.... you talk about this like you just finished your first years subscription to "How to become a competitive shooter/ sniper for dummies"

your cost analysis argument is so wrong I can't even read the rest of your incoherent rambling....
 
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These are all very good points. Thank you. I am glad someone with experience can discuss here.

Maybe I will make the 10/2/14 Upper Nisqually Gun Club match and shoot with you? I am working on getting permissions from the War Department and fly up to visit my father.

You'll have an awesome time. There's quite a few guys out there who run both semi's and bolt and if anything it's definitely a great place to get more practice in with positionals and semi's and not the ridiculous restrictions some matches place on semi's to eliminate the advantages.
 
Spoken like a true bench rest shooter. Taking everything impractical and measure it through a very narrowly construed set of variables and then make a blanket statement. My statement was more general in nature based on general marksmanship conditions in real world practical rifle competitions, not bolting everything down with impractical gear.

So what you are saying is that ALL of the competitors across American competing in the growing sport of Tactical Rifle (also known as Precision Rifle Series) are wrong and have the wrong equipment? I mean, with the advantages of the semi-automatic rifle in reloading when compared to the bolt action, why wouldn't everyone shoot a semi-automatic?

To be clear, the real reason is that bolt action rifles, by their very nature, are more accurate. You have to spend a LOT more money getting an accurate semiautomatic to perform on par with an average or moderate bolt action rifle. You are dealing with a lot more variables and problems with a semiautomatic and all of the steps to increase accuracy are simply to overcome those problems. Take some similarly priced rifles, the bolt action is more accurate, period.


Actually, you can. Because competition brings out the best shooters and the best equipment. That is a very easy conclusion to make. Remember, these are general statements. You can always say "this special rifle x" outshoots or outperforms "this rifle y". But in general, you would be hard pressed to ask top competitors to use equipment that they feel are not adequate.

Who knows, maybe over time the semi-automatics can overcome their issues with accuracy. I will go with what my own experience tells me and also look to the top professionals and what they are using. Those are always good guides to successful shooting accuracy.

Hope to see you all at the next Sniper's Hide Cup with a semi-automatic and see how you do. You guys can all prove it yourself. I look forward to it.


If you can get more "real world" than these two competitions, then please let me know:
International Sniper Competition – Ft Benning, GA
2012 International Sniper Competition

US Army Special Operations Command Sniper Competition – Ft Bragg, NC
USASOC Sniper Competition | ShadowSpear Special Operations

If you also check the lineup of rifles used in those 2 competitions, the number of shooters using of a semi-auto platform and winning or placing in the top has gone up every year.









I can appreciate the PRS series, what it is, who shoots in it, and the equipment used. That being the case, don't confuse it for anything more than what it is, which is a game played on weekends with a given set of rules (no disrespect implied). IMHO, those rules don't necessarily agree with the "real world of sniping" and don't necessarily present a level playing field for the use of both platforms.

I have watched many of the "Best Snipers/Shooters" at those two competitions making consistent hits with both platforms, because their rifles perform very well, and they have the best shooting skill sets that anyone can have.

Per above, there are Pros & Cons to both platforms. The key is to understand them all, exploit the Pros, and learn how to work around the Cons. Also per above, there are plenty of people who understand that, and as a result are successful with whatever platform they are using for their given application.

IMHO, if you are the new kid on the block of Precision Long Range Shooting, do yourself a favor and start with a bolt gun, and then once you have a solid basis of shooting fundamentals established, take look at a semi-auto platform if it makes sense for your given shooting application.

Once again, no disrespect intended for any of the PRS shooters. Also apologies for the sidetrack, but contrary to some beliefs, there is life beyond the PRS.
 
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Really, really, reader's digest version, overly simplistic short answer: After you pull the trigger a lot more is going on inside a gas gun than inside a bold gun.
 
Really, really, reader's digest version, overly simplistic short answer: After you pull the trigger a lot more is going on inside a gas gun than inside a bold gun.

And some of it is happening before the bullet leaves the barrel. An example is the firing mechanics of a bolt gun vs a semiauto.

Here's a neat test: dry fire your bolt gun and your semi at max magnification. Do your best to have flawless technique. The semi-auto gun will generally have more wiggle in the reticle when the firing pin goes click. That means that more wiggle is translated into the gun when it fires. Try measuring those tiny movements in your reticle. Those tiny movements can easily be translated down range into the phenomenon commonly known as "gas guns are less accurate than bolt guns".

All guns are dumb inanimate machines. They do what they are 'told'. No exceptions.
 
Man, this really got off subject and into what is more accurate..... and not potential issues and remedies for gas guns (compared to bolt guns). Thanks to the guys that took a practical approach based on a experience to answer this guy's question instead of digging your heels in to defend your platform. I feel like someone brought up revolvers vs. autos or something.