I'm looking for an accurate .223. I keep coming back to the same question. Why bolt gun over an AR platform target/heavy barrel? Personal comfort? Cost? Accuracy? Reliability? I do like the idea of less moving parts with a bolt action rifle…
- Thread starter springerjb
- Start date
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
Bolts are easier to shoot, more accurate for the same price, and also "cheaper" to shoot. How can something that shoot the same bullet be cheaper? Well, because with an AR, you will be tempted to shoot faster.
With the bolt, you will usually shoot it slower thus giving yourself time to practice perfecting your form. Bolts can also be rebarreled with better barrels for a lower price.
Bolts are easier to shoot, more accurate for the same price, and also "cheaper" to shoot. How can something that shoot the same bullet be cheaper? Well, because with an AR, you will be tempted to shoot faster.
With the bolt, you will usually shoot it slower thus giving yourself time to practice perfecting your form. Bolts can also be rebarreled with better barrels for a lower price.
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
I like this question, as I deal with it myself.
I had a Gre-Tan bolt gun make up on a fully prepped Rem action. Fluted, 20" Krieger 1/7 McMillan, Surefire, Badger front rail etc.
At the same time I set up two AR's 1/7 16" Surefire, etc.
All three shoot under 4" at 600 yards with 77 grain SMK's. Sometimes, much better. I use them as tools for varmint control, deer culling and informal target shooting. I find that I seldom carry the Bolt gun and the AR is just a great tool. I would say that in a couple thousand shots I have never burned thorugh a mag or rapid fired as I am just not trained that way. I have shot multiple live targets that could not have been taken as rapidly with a bolt gun. Mostly coyotes. I have twice killed three with 3 shots in less than 10 seconds in the past year. It just allows you to fully concentrate on the targets. When the AR shoots as well as the bolt gun, and multiple fast targets are likely, I do not use the bolt gun. And I shot nothing else for 40 years. If I had used a set up like one of the AR's I now have, there would be far fewer coyotes today in my area. JMO
I like this question, as I deal with it myself.
I had a Gre-Tan bolt gun make up on a fully prepped Rem action. Fluted, 20" Krieger 1/7 McMillan, Surefire, Badger front rail etc.
At the same time I set up two AR's 1/7 16" Surefire, etc.
All three shoot under 4" at 600 yards with 77 grain SMK's. Sometimes, much better. I use them as tools for varmint control, deer culling and informal target shooting. I find that I seldom carry the Bolt gun and the AR is just a great tool. I would say that in a couple thousand shots I have never burned thorugh a mag or rapid fired as I am just not trained that way. I have shot multiple live targets that could not have been taken as rapidly with a bolt gun. Mostly coyotes. I have twice killed three with 3 shots in less than 10 seconds in the past year. It just allows you to fully concentrate on the targets. When the AR shoots as well as the bolt gun, and multiple fast targets are likely, I do not use the bolt gun. And I shot nothing else for 40 years. If I had used a set up like one of the AR's I now have, there would be far fewer coyotes today in my area. JMO
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
Personally,
I much prefer the fit and feel of a bolt gun...to the point that I sold all the AR's I owned.
These days I would say they will both perform, so it comes down to a fit and enjoyment issue for me...which would I rather spend time shooting. I also really enjoy running the bolt.
Personally,
I much prefer the fit and feel of a bolt gun...to the point that I sold all the AR's I owned.
These days I would say they will both perform, so it comes down to a fit and enjoyment issue for me...which would I rather spend time shooting. I also really enjoy running the bolt.
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
its the same principles as every semi auto vs bolt. I'll give you some examples there are exemptions to every rule but this will give you a general idea.
1. Power: Semi-auto have to recycle gas back to cycle the bolt, this recycling of gas will cause a decrease in power.
2. Cost: Less metal less, labor mean, etc etc means less cost. There are exemptions to this.
3. Weight: Less parts means lighter rifle.
4. Accuracy: Debatable as a Semi-Auto has more moving part giving it a inherint decrease in accuracy some might argue this point.
5. Reliability: This is a case by case issue, but personal opinion is that your going to have less issues with a bolt action than a semi auto.
Not to say that semi-auto aren't bad (I only own 1 bolt action to my 3 semi-auto's) but bolt actions do have a edge on semi auto's in alot of areas. If semi-auto's were better in every way than all snipers would use a semi-auto, but they use semi-auto's and bolts.
its the same principles as every semi auto vs bolt. I'll give you some examples there are exemptions to every rule but this will give you a general idea.
1. Power: Semi-auto have to recycle gas back to cycle the bolt, this recycling of gas will cause a decrease in power.
2. Cost: Less metal less, labor mean, etc etc means less cost. There are exemptions to this.
3. Weight: Less parts means lighter rifle.
4. Accuracy: Debatable as a Semi-Auto has more moving part giving it a inherint decrease in accuracy some might argue this point.
5. Reliability: This is a case by case issue, but personal opinion is that your going to have less issues with a bolt action than a semi auto.
Not to say that semi-auto aren't bad (I only own 1 bolt action to my 3 semi-auto's) but bolt actions do have a edge on semi auto's in alot of areas. If semi-auto's were better in every way than all snipers would use a semi-auto, but they use semi-auto's and bolts.
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
Things I prefer about a bolt gun,
- I control when a round is chambered. I like this especially whe the gun is getting hot. No need to let a round preheat.
- Easier to find, manage brass.
- Easirt to do magazine mods for longer oal, higher BC bullets.
- Easier to clean.
- Easier on brass.
- Affords neck sizing with reliable function.
- port pressure considerations are a non-issue.
I like the ARs too, but these are a few things I prefer about bolt guns.
Things I prefer about a bolt gun,
- I control when a round is chambered. I like this especially whe the gun is getting hot. No need to let a round preheat.
- Easier to find, manage brass.
- Easirt to do magazine mods for longer oal, higher BC bullets.
- Easier to clean.
- Easier on brass.
- Affords neck sizing with reliable function.
- port pressure considerations are a non-issue.
I like the ARs too, but these are a few things I prefer about bolt guns.
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
I just don't like semi-autos very much! I own an ar, but they just really aren't for me when it comes to precision shooting.
I have an RD precision built .223 on a R700. One of the sweetest guns I have ever owned. Not a single person has shot it and not been impressed by its accuracy and function.
I just don't like semi-autos very much! I own an ar, but they just really aren't for me when it comes to precision shooting.
I have an RD precision built .223 on a R700. One of the sweetest guns I have ever owned. Not a single person has shot it and not been impressed by its accuracy and function.
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
I have a very accurate AR, but I would rather take the bolt gun out 9 out of 10 times. Easier on brass to reload for one, but I also don't go though nearly as much. I don't have be as carefull about where the brass gets ejected(Chipped my back window with ejecting brass before then it spiderwebbed in the cold.)
Also my bolt gun is alot lighter(not everyone's is though) and easier to shoot offhand.
To get the same accuracy gun for gun, my AR's have to have a heavy barrel, while the bolt guns are sporter.
I have a very accurate AR, but I would rather take the bolt gun out 9 out of 10 times. Easier on brass to reload for one, but I also don't go though nearly as much. I don't have be as carefull about where the brass gets ejected(Chipped my back window with ejecting brass before then it spiderwebbed in the cold.)
Also my bolt gun is alot lighter(not everyone's is though) and easier to shoot offhand.
To get the same accuracy gun for gun, my AR's have to have a heavy barrel, while the bolt guns are sporter.
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
personal preference.
I built up a very nice ar with a 1/7 18" WOA upper. It shot around .75 MOA with my handloads. Figured I could use it as a match gun, house gun, and hunting gun.
Just didn't enjoy shooting it as much. Precision shooting to me is enjoyable because its a little bit slower paced that USPSA.
So i sold it and bought a bolt gun again.
personal preference.
I built up a very nice ar with a 1/7 18" WOA upper. It shot around .75 MOA with my handloads. Figured I could use it as a match gun, house gun, and hunting gun.
Just didn't enjoy shooting it as much. Precision shooting to me is enjoyable because its a little bit slower paced that USPSA.
So i sold it and bought a bolt gun again.
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bolts can also be rebarreled with better barrels for a lower price. </div></div>
My experience with re-barreling bolt guns is only with Rem 700 and 700 clones.Where can you get a New Custom BBL Blank Chambered,Contoured and Fitted to your Rem 700 action for less than $500 ? I can buy the same for an AR15 all day long for one hell of a lot less,and have it up and running in less than an hour.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bolts can also be rebarreled with better barrels for a lower price. </div></div>
My experience with re-barreling bolt guns is only with Rem 700 and 700 clones.Where can you get a New Custom BBL Blank Chambered,Contoured and Fitted to your Rem 700 action for less than $500 ? I can buy the same for an AR15 all day long for one hell of a lot less,and have it up and running in less than an hour.
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mtneer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking for an accurate .223. I keep coming back to the same question. Why bolt gun over an AR platform target/heavy barrel? Personal comfort? Cost? Accuracy? Reliability? I do like the idea of less moving parts with a bolt action rifle…</div></div>
The piece missing is the application the rifle will be used for. I have several AR's in different configurations and each has its place. The most accurate is the CR6724 ... Prairie Dogs at 400 yards with 77g SMK = dead. When your firing at a couple of the little bastards quickly the AR is nice. Now on the flip side rarely do I hit the range and not take my 223 built on a Surgeon Action. That thing just drives tacks. The AR is a .75 MOA rifle and the GAP Surgeon is a sub .5 MOA rifle easily. I enjoy shooting both but choose the Bolt rifle every time unless im going back overseas.
Other thing to consider ... cost has been touched on but look at it from a buy in point. To get a good sub MOA AR your looking at $1k plus. Go Bolt and $650 and you can grab a Savage Model 10 Precision Carbine in 223 with a heavy barrel in 1:9 twist ... match 69g ammo shoots .75 MOA, have done it. Wanna rebarrel to a faster twist - Savage SHooter Supply can hook you up for $325. The best part ... the stock and trigger aren't junk and don't need replaced. Some hate the Accutrigger some don't ... I didn't mind it - It wasn't a Heuber but wasn't terrible and didn't have creep.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mtneer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking for an accurate .223. I keep coming back to the same question. Why bolt gun over an AR platform target/heavy barrel? Personal comfort? Cost? Accuracy? Reliability? I do like the idea of less moving parts with a bolt action rifle…</div></div>
The piece missing is the application the rifle will be used for. I have several AR's in different configurations and each has its place. The most accurate is the CR6724 ... Prairie Dogs at 400 yards with 77g SMK = dead. When your firing at a couple of the little bastards quickly the AR is nice. Now on the flip side rarely do I hit the range and not take my 223 built on a Surgeon Action. That thing just drives tacks. The AR is a .75 MOA rifle and the GAP Surgeon is a sub .5 MOA rifle easily. I enjoy shooting both but choose the Bolt rifle every time unless im going back overseas.
Other thing to consider ... cost has been touched on but look at it from a buy in point. To get a good sub MOA AR your looking at $1k plus. Go Bolt and $650 and you can grab a Savage Model 10 Precision Carbine in 223 with a heavy barrel in 1:9 twist ... match 69g ammo shoots .75 MOA, have done it. Wanna rebarrel to a faster twist - Savage SHooter Supply can hook you up for $325. The best part ... the stock and trigger aren't junk and don't need replaced. Some hate the Accutrigger some don't ... I didn't mind it - It wasn't a Heuber but wasn't terrible and didn't have creep.
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
I think both have their place in shooting. I have both bolt guns and many AR's in 223, 6.8 and 308 but I find myself taking the Remington 700 VS (223) more and more to the range. It is very easy on the brass and I don't have to clean up upon return. It is a solid 3/4-1 MOA rifle and I use it for practice for my 308 bolts. Much cheaper to shoot 223 than 308.
I love my AR's but they are harder on brass and need much more work on the up keep. I have some nice 223's AR's - DPMS Mini SASS and Olympic Ultra Match that are easily as accurate as the bolt gun but not as easy to clean up.
In the end of the day I am glad I have both types. It depends on my mood on what I will take to the range and I love the versatility to be able to choose.
I think both have their place in shooting. I have both bolt guns and many AR's in 223, 6.8 and 308 but I find myself taking the Remington 700 VS (223) more and more to the range. It is very easy on the brass and I don't have to clean up upon return. It is a solid 3/4-1 MOA rifle and I use it for practice for my 308 bolts. Much cheaper to shoot 223 than 308.
I love my AR's but they are harder on brass and need much more work on the up keep. I have some nice 223's AR's - DPMS Mini SASS and Olympic Ultra Match that are easily as accurate as the bolt gun but not as easy to clean up.
In the end of the day I am glad I have both types. It depends on my mood on what I will take to the range and I love the versatility to be able to choose.
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
Accurate at what distance?
For shorter distances 500yd and under, a good varmint-optimized AR (I suggest CLE) will be a tackdriver.
Longer distances require heavier (longer) projectiles to maintain good accuracy, and cartridge length will usually grow to accomodate seating depths and longer projectiles. This will either require some compromises to permit magazine feeding, or skipping mag feeding altogether, which totally negates the reasoning behind having a semi in the first place.
So, get both; AR for under 500 and a faster firing cadence, bolt gun for any distance and slow(er) fire.
Now, then; if you're going to rebarrel a bolt gun, or maybe configure a switch barrel gun, the Savage works out better/cheaper because all you buy is the barrel, you can headspace it yourself, without any gunsmithing/machining involved. You <span style="font-style: italic">do</span> need to buy(, beg, or borrow...) a Savage barrel nut wrench.
Finished, chambered, crowned high quality barrels, threaded for owner installation on Savage actions, can be had from L-W for <span style="font-style: italic">well</span> below $500, mine listed at $300.
Greg
Accurate at what distance?
For shorter distances 500yd and under, a good varmint-optimized AR (I suggest CLE) will be a tackdriver.
Longer distances require heavier (longer) projectiles to maintain good accuracy, and cartridge length will usually grow to accomodate seating depths and longer projectiles. This will either require some compromises to permit magazine feeding, or skipping mag feeding altogether, which totally negates the reasoning behind having a semi in the first place.
So, get both; AR for under 500 and a faster firing cadence, bolt gun for any distance and slow(er) fire.
Now, then; if you're going to rebarrel a bolt gun, or maybe configure a switch barrel gun, the Savage works out better/cheaper because all you buy is the barrel, you can headspace it yourself, without any gunsmithing/machining involved. You <span style="font-style: italic">do</span> need to buy(, beg, or borrow...) a Savage barrel nut wrench.
Finished, chambered, crowned high quality barrels, threaded for owner installation on Savage actions, can be had from L-W for <span style="font-style: italic">well</span> below $500, mine listed at $300.
Greg
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bolts can also be rebarreled with better barrels for a lower price. </div></div>
Yeah, that's not even remotely true. You can drop in a Sabre Defense or LW barrel with matching bolt for around $350 that will shoot 1/2 moa all day long. I did it myself and my AR's outshoot my bolt guns all day long. The bullet has long exited the barrel of an AR before the gas system starts pushing the bolt back, so there's very little accuracy lost on the "movement" of the gas system. Real accuracy is lost in many other places of an AR rifle.
Out of the box, most bolt guns will be better shooters, but it's not just because of the action. Most AR's are also build on forged aluminum uppers and 16inch barrel's wich are typically less accurate. Tell the guys at Cheytac or RND Edge that gas guns are less accurate. Good luck!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bolts can also be rebarreled with better barrels for a lower price. </div></div>
Yeah, that's not even remotely true. You can drop in a Sabre Defense or LW barrel with matching bolt for around $350 that will shoot 1/2 moa all day long. I did it myself and my AR's outshoot my bolt guns all day long. The bullet has long exited the barrel of an AR before the gas system starts pushing the bolt back, so there's very little accuracy lost on the "movement" of the gas system. Real accuracy is lost in many other places of an AR rifle.
Out of the box, most bolt guns will be better shooters, but it's not just because of the action. Most AR's are also build on forged aluminum uppers and 16inch barrel's wich are typically less accurate. Tell the guys at Cheytac or RND Edge that gas guns are less accurate. Good luck!
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bolts can also be rebarreled with better barrels for a lower price. </div></div>
Yeah, that's not even remotely true. You can drop in a Sabre Defense or LW barrel with matching bolt for around $350 that will shoot 1/2 moa all day long. </div></div>
Which "$350" barrel and matching bolt from this list will shoot 0.5MOA?
http://www.sabredefence.com/products.php#products/barrels
Just about all the precision AR barrels on this list seem to go for 30% more than great bolt action barrels (and that's not counting the matching bolt for the AR)....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bolts can also be rebarreled with better barrels for a lower price. </div></div>
Yeah, that's not even remotely true. You can drop in a Sabre Defense or LW barrel with matching bolt for around $350 that will shoot 1/2 moa all day long. </div></div>
Which "$350" barrel and matching bolt from this list will shoot 0.5MOA?
http://www.sabredefence.com/products.php#products/barrels
Just about all the precision AR barrels on this list seem to go for 30% more than great bolt action barrels (and that's not counting the matching bolt for the AR)....
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
Thanks for the responses guys. A lot to think about. More than anything I'm trying to reduce the number of guns in my safe that have a single purpose (or very few) and increase the number of guns that can do more/have more utility (maybe with a few extra accessories...optics choices, mags, carry options, size/weight, etc). For my purposes I want something accurate out to 400 meters. I will be putting a Super Sniper 10x42 (non HD) on it. Decisions, decisions...
Thanks for the responses guys. A lot to think about. More than anything I'm trying to reduce the number of guns in my safe that have a single purpose (or very few) and increase the number of guns that can do more/have more utility (maybe with a few extra accessories...optics choices, mags, carry options, size/weight, etc). For my purposes I want something accurate out to 400 meters. I will be putting a Super Sniper 10x42 (non HD) on it. Decisions, decisions...
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bolts can also be rebarreled with better barrels for a lower price. </div></div>
Yeah, that's not even remotely true. You can drop in a Sabre Defense or LW barrel with matching bolt for around $350 that will shoot 1/2 moa all day long. </div></div>
Which "$350" barrel and matching bolt from this list will shoot 0.5MOA?
http://www.sabredefence.com/products.php#products/barrels
Just about all the precision AR barrels on this list seem to go for 30% more than great bolt action barrels (and that's not counting the matching bolt for the AR).... </div></div>
Here's a Sabre for $325 without bolt:
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1634
Lothar Walther $315 without bolt:
http://www.americanspiritarms.com/products/24_Inch_Stainless_Steel_Bull_Barrel-91-6.html
I have both of these barrels, and I shot a 0.33 MOA 5 shot group using Hornady 68gr BTHP's on both barrels! I don't think you'd ever be able to get a LW barrel for a Remy 700 and have it properly installed for that little.
I also have this DPMS barrel and shot 0.55 MOA for $225:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=688404
It's absolutely possible!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bolts can also be rebarreled with better barrels for a lower price. </div></div>
Yeah, that's not even remotely true. You can drop in a Sabre Defense or LW barrel with matching bolt for around $350 that will shoot 1/2 moa all day long. </div></div>
Which "$350" barrel and matching bolt from this list will shoot 0.5MOA?
http://www.sabredefence.com/products.php#products/barrels
Just about all the precision AR barrels on this list seem to go for 30% more than great bolt action barrels (and that's not counting the matching bolt for the AR).... </div></div>
Here's a Sabre for $325 without bolt:
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1634
Lothar Walther $315 without bolt:
http://www.americanspiritarms.com/products/24_Inch_Stainless_Steel_Bull_Barrel-91-6.html
I have both of these barrels, and I shot a 0.33 MOA 5 shot group using Hornady 68gr BTHP's on both barrels! I don't think you'd ever be able to get a LW barrel for a Remy 700 and have it properly installed for that little.
I also have this DPMS barrel and shot 0.55 MOA for $225:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=688404
It's absolutely possible!
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
Idk why exactly or the physics to it but I've always known the rule of thumb was out to about 600 yards semi and bolt are about the same but once you go past that bolts are suposed to be left in the dust. Due to simpler is better. Less going on less to alter the same shot padern.
I only own a bolt in 308 and plan on getting an ar in .223 soon but not for long range.
Idk why exactly or the physics to it but I've always known the rule of thumb was out to about 600 yards semi and bolt are about the same but once you go past that bolts are suposed to be left in the dust. Due to simpler is better. Less going on less to alter the same shot padern.
I only own a bolt in 308 and plan on getting an ar in .223 soon but not for long range.
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
I had a PSS in 223, which was a phenominal shooter. Then the Colt HBAR Elite came out with a 24" barrel. I got that too. Then I found out that the HBAR would shoot swiss GP90 into 1/4" groups, while I had to reload my PSS for it to do the same. I sold the PSS. I do admit, I shoot faster, but in the UNlikely event I have to use the rifle for more than targets or vermin, I'd like the faster follow up shots and detachable mags for $10.
Since I got this Elite in 1996/7, I build a "recon" AR15 with a WOA barrel, which also is a phenominal shooter. But the 308 semi autos never gave me this level of performance, so I've stuck with the bolt actions for them and my heavier calibers. Not to mention, I can't afford semi auto 308's in the "precision" class aside from the Armalite, which I hate due to unreliability - in my experience. Chambers were always a bit too tight, leading to FTE's.
I had a PSS in 223, which was a phenominal shooter. Then the Colt HBAR Elite came out with a 24" barrel. I got that too. Then I found out that the HBAR would shoot swiss GP90 into 1/4" groups, while I had to reload my PSS for it to do the same. I sold the PSS. I do admit, I shoot faster, but in the UNlikely event I have to use the rifle for more than targets or vermin, I'd like the faster follow up shots and detachable mags for $10.
Since I got this Elite in 1996/7, I build a "recon" AR15 with a WOA barrel, which also is a phenominal shooter. But the 308 semi autos never gave me this level of performance, so I've stuck with the bolt actions for them and my heavier calibers. Not to mention, I can't afford semi auto 308's in the "precision" class aside from the Armalite, which I hate due to unreliability - in my experience. Chambers were always a bit too tight, leading to FTE's.
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HKTackDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a PSS in 223, which was a phenominal shooter. Then the Colt HBAR Elite came out with a 24" barrel. I got that too. Then I found out that the HBAR would shoot swiss GP90 into 1/4" groups, while I had to reload my PSS for it to do the same. I sold the PSS. I do admit, I shoot faster, but in the UNlikely event I have to use the rifle for more than targets or vermin, I'd like the faster follow up shots and detachable mags for $10.
Since I got this Elite in 1996/7, I build a "recon" AR15 with a WOA barrel, which also is a phenominal shooter. But the 308 semi autos never gave me this level of performance, so I've stuck with the bolt actions for them and my heavier calibers. Not to mention, I can't afford semi auto 308's in the "precision" class aside from the Armalite, which I hate due to unreliability - in my experience. Chambers were always a bit too tight, leading to FTE's. </div></div>
You should have taken it bast 600 yards. I bet you would have seen a huge difference in the PSS and the AR.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HKTackDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a PSS in 223, which was a phenominal shooter. Then the Colt HBAR Elite came out with a 24" barrel. I got that too. Then I found out that the HBAR would shoot swiss GP90 into 1/4" groups, while I had to reload my PSS for it to do the same. I sold the PSS. I do admit, I shoot faster, but in the UNlikely event I have to use the rifle for more than targets or vermin, I'd like the faster follow up shots and detachable mags for $10.
Since I got this Elite in 1996/7, I build a "recon" AR15 with a WOA barrel, which also is a phenominal shooter. But the 308 semi autos never gave me this level of performance, so I've stuck with the bolt actions for them and my heavier calibers. Not to mention, I can't afford semi auto 308's in the "precision" class aside from the Armalite, which I hate due to unreliability - in my experience. Chambers were always a bit too tight, leading to FTE's. </div></div>
You should have taken it bast 600 yards. I bet you would have seen a huge difference in the PSS and the AR.
Re: Why bolt .223 over AR platform?
The problem with most 223 bolt guns is they are wayto big for the round and end up being too heavy. I have a cz 527 that is real nice and small. Less than 5 or 6 pounds out of the box with an action sized for 223.
Most people build a 223 bolt gun the size and weight of a 308 sized gun and try to shoot it further than is ideal. If it was me and I wanted a walking around gun in 223 I would get a cz 527 with a 2-7 scope. If I wanted to shoot intermediate ranges with 223 I would use a upper end ar like a jp-15. If I wanted to shoot 6-1000 yards I would not pick a 223 in a platform designed to shoot 308 sized cases.
The problem with most 223 bolt guns is they are wayto big for the round and end up being too heavy. I have a cz 527 that is real nice and small. Less than 5 or 6 pounds out of the box with an action sized for 223.
Most people build a 223 bolt gun the size and weight of a 308 sized gun and try to shoot it further than is ideal. If it was me and I wanted a walking around gun in 223 I would get a cz 527 with a 2-7 scope. If I wanted to shoot intermediate ranges with 223 I would use a upper end ar like a jp-15. If I wanted to shoot 6-1000 yards I would not pick a 223 in a platform designed to shoot 308 sized cases.
