With all the new powders out that aren't effected by temperature, why still use the other stuff like RL-15?? Wouldn't you rather give up a little accuracy to be able to know that your powder is going to burn the same???
Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
- Thread starter SSC
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Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
We have used the "TEMP STABLE" branded powders and our Log's say they all change velocity with Temp,some More some less,there is no such thing as "temp stable" powder its a Marketing ploy.
Its easy to overcome temp changes and ajust come ups,My questions is with all the new wind stable Bullets out why use the others ? JFWY
We have used the "TEMP STABLE" branded powders and our Log's say they all change velocity with Temp,some More some less,there is no such thing as "temp stable" powder its a Marketing ploy.
Its easy to overcome temp changes and ajust come ups,My questions is with all the new wind stable Bullets out why use the others ? JFWY
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
As was stated previously no powder is completely unaffected by temperature changes. But some are more stable then others. I have gone to using Hodgdons extreme powders almost exclusively due to them being designed for better stability across a wide range of temperatures.
As was stated previously no powder is completely unaffected by temperature changes. But some are more stable then others. I have gone to using Hodgdons extreme powders almost exclusively due to them being designed for better stability across a wide range of temperatures.
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all the new powders out that aren't effected by temperature, why still use the other stuff like RL-15?? Wouldn't you rather give up a little accuracy to be able to know that your powder is going to burn the same??? </div></div>
Good question....I switched from R17 to H4350 in my 6XC after experiencing a severe velocity drop in subzero temps...accuracy was as good, or better anyway. Varget has been the same as well in my .308's....it works great, even in really cold temps.
Not everyone lives and shoots, hunts in a place like I do where it can be 110F in July and 45 below zero in January.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all the new powders out that aren't effected by temperature, why still use the other stuff like RL-15?? Wouldn't you rather give up a little accuracy to be able to know that your powder is going to burn the same??? </div></div>
Good question....I switched from R17 to H4350 in my 6XC after experiencing a severe velocity drop in subzero temps...accuracy was as good, or better anyway. Varget has been the same as well in my .308's....it works great, even in really cold temps.
Not everyone lives and shoots, hunts in a place like I do where it can be 110F in July and 45 below zero in January.
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
A few reasons. One, some "temp stable" powders don't give the performance as a "temp sensitive" powder. Two, some don't see the temp sensitivity claimed by others and three, some of us don't shoot in areas with huge, rapid temp swings.
Besides, I am with ASM1 and think it's more of a marketing ploy.
A few reasons. One, some "temp stable" powders don't give the performance as a "temp sensitive" powder. Two, some don't see the temp sensitivity claimed by others and three, some of us don't shoot in areas with huge, rapid temp swings.
Besides, I am with ASM1 and think it's more of a marketing ploy.
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have used the "TEMP STABLE" branded powders and our Log's say they all change velocity with Temp,some More some less,there is no such thing as "temp stable" powder its a Marketing ploy.
JFWY
</div></div>
+1 , the other reason is becuase people have already bought 8 lbs of rl-15 , so they are going to use it. Some people have brand loyalty, some powders like the vv n500 claim velocity increases , some people might take that over stability ( maybe if you only shooting at 100-200 y)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have used the "TEMP STABLE" branded powders and our Log's say they all change velocity with Temp,some More some less,there is no such thing as "temp stable" powder its a Marketing ploy.
JFWY
+1 , the other reason is becuase people have already bought 8 lbs of rl-15 , so they are going to use it. Some people have brand loyalty, some powders like the vv n500 claim velocity increases , some people might take that over stability ( maybe if you only shooting at 100-200 y)
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all the new powders out that aren't effected by temperature, why still use the other stuff like RL-15?? Wouldn't you rather give up a little accuracy to be able to know that your powder is going to burn the same??? </div></div>
Why would you need to give up accuracy in using temp. stable powders? I use Benchmark, H4350 and Varget. They all give very good velocity and accuracy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all the new powders out that aren't effected by temperature, why still use the other stuff like RL-15?? Wouldn't you rather give up a little accuracy to be able to know that your powder is going to burn the same??? </div></div>
Why would you need to give up accuracy in using temp. stable powders? I use Benchmark, H4350 and Varget. They all give very good velocity and accuracy.
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> why still use the other stuff like RL-15?? </div></div>
Because while it may not be the most fasionable powder, it still delivers lead on target. For some of us, that is what really matters.
Many, many, many competitions have been won with Reloder 15 and many bad guys have been killed with bullets propelled by it.
That's not to say I won't give 2000MR a try. I just won't be dumping my kegs of RE15 on the grass beforehand.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> why still use the other stuff like RL-15?? </div></div>
Because while it may not be the most fasionable powder, it still delivers lead on target. For some of us, that is what really matters.
Many, many, many competitions have been won with Reloder 15 and many bad guys have been killed with bullets propelled by it.
That's not to say I won't give 2000MR a try. I just won't be dumping my kegs of RE15 on the grass beforehand.
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
"With all the new powders out that aren't effected by temperature, why still use the other stuff ..."
No powder is unaffected by temp. And, perhaps, because there isn't as much effective temp sensitivity as some people seem to think?
"With all the new powders out that aren't effected by temperature, why still use the other stuff ..."
No powder is unaffected by temp. And, perhaps, because there isn't as much effective temp sensitivity as some people seem to think?
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
im dealing with this right now. my 300 winmag tack drives with R22. but load development occured in beginning of summer, 90-100 degree heat. now with temps of 30-70 ive lost enough accuracy that im not happy. im working up loads with H1000 now
im dealing with this right now. my 300 winmag tack drives with R22. but load development occured in beginning of summer, 90-100 degree heat. now with temps of 30-70 ive lost enough accuracy that im not happy. im working up loads with H1000 now
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
I like using extreme powders if possible, but RL22 produces much higher velocities with lower pressure than all the extreme powders i've tried in my 280AI. i use retumbo, h-1000 and varget in a couple guns, but i just can't get away from the accuracy and speed the the RL powders yet.
I like using extreme powders if possible, but RL22 produces much higher velocities with lower pressure than all the extreme powders i've tried in my 280AI. i use retumbo, h-1000 and varget in a couple guns, but i just can't get away from the accuracy and speed the the RL powders yet.
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...some don't see the temp sensitivity claimed by others</div></div>
Many don't see the effect because they're basing their observations on air temperature, which isn't necessarily the same as the powder temperature unless the rounds have been soaking openly in that temperature for a while (a couple hours). Depending on how the rounds were transported, you really have no idea what their internal temperature is, and that is what is going to affect the velocity if the powder is temperature sensitive. Powder temperature inside the rounds changes very little when rounds are transported in climate controlled vehicles and stored in plastic boxes. Those boxes are pretty good thermal insulators.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its easy to overcome temp changes and ajust come ups</div></div>
If your velocity is changing, so is pressure and barrel time. Your load is getting re-tuned the same way it does when you vary your charge weight at a fixed temperature.
In practice few people will see a difference at large distances if the group opens up from 0.5MOA to 0.75 MOA when other factors like wind, mirage and a less ideal shooting position than a solid bench come into play.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...some don't see the temp sensitivity claimed by others</div></div>
Many don't see the effect because they're basing their observations on air temperature, which isn't necessarily the same as the powder temperature unless the rounds have been soaking openly in that temperature for a while (a couple hours). Depending on how the rounds were transported, you really have no idea what their internal temperature is, and that is what is going to affect the velocity if the powder is temperature sensitive. Powder temperature inside the rounds changes very little when rounds are transported in climate controlled vehicles and stored in plastic boxes. Those boxes are pretty good thermal insulators.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its easy to overcome temp changes and ajust come ups</div></div>
If your velocity is changing, so is pressure and barrel time. Your load is getting re-tuned the same way it does when you vary your charge weight at a fixed temperature.
In practice few people will see a difference at large distances if the group opens up from 0.5MOA to 0.75 MOA when other factors like wind, mirage and a less ideal shooting position than a solid bench come into play.
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lovdasnow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like using extreme powders if possible, but RL22 produces much higher velocities with lower pressure than all the extreme powders i've tried in my 280AI. i use retumbo, h-1000 and varget in a couple guns, but i just can't get away from the accuracy and speed the the RL powders yet. </div></div>
This^^
I'm building a 284, and RL17 is hands down the speed king for it. We're talking 3000fps vs 2850 (next best H4350) for a 162 amax. It's gonna be tough to choose a temp stable powder - and give up 150fps.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lovdasnow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like using extreme powders if possible, but RL22 produces much higher velocities with lower pressure than all the extreme powders i've tried in my 280AI. i use retumbo, h-1000 and varget in a couple guns, but i just can't get away from the accuracy and speed the the RL powders yet. </div></div>
This^^
I'm building a 284, and RL17 is hands down the speed king for it. We're talking 3000fps vs 2850 (next best H4350) for a 162 amax. It's gonna be tough to choose a temp stable powder - and give up 150fps.
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
The hot load I found is 57.7 gr Re17 130 gr VLD #27501 moly 3.34" 270Win 22" barrel.
Chronographs 3,228 fps
All 5 cases are stiff force to re prime.
Quickload predicts 3,219 fps 70,604 psi
When I look at Kombayotch's Re17 data, I might get 6.6% velocity variation between -10 F to +170 F.
If I subtract off 6.6% from 3219 fps I get 3020 fps.
--------------------------------------
But if I use an extreme powder, 52.3 gr H4895 QL says 3145 fps 70k psi.
If I look at Hodgdon's H4895 data, I might get .6% velocity change between 0 F and +125 F.
If I subtract off .84% [extrapolating to normalize to Kombayothch's temp range] I get 3119 fps
------------------------------------------
What does it all mean?
RE17 changes in trajectory [less long range accuracy]
RE17 changes in velocity [ less power]
What does THAT mean?
When I work up a load, and find the max load with long brass life, I have to subtract off that load my own safety margin for variations, to make a useful load.
That safety margin would have to be so large for Re17, that it would wind up being a wimpy load as well as a more variable trajectory useful load.
But with the extreme powder, the safety margin, to reduce below the threshold of long brass life, is smaller, resulting in a more powerful and more stable trajectory useful load.
------------------------
What other things contribute to the calculation of safety margin besides powder temperature variations?
*Shot to shot powder charge variation
*case to case volume variation
*Cartridge to cartridge over all length variation
*Bullet to bullet weight variation
*Primer to primer power variation
*Cartridge to cartridge neck tension variation
*Intended use of the ammo from targets to dangerous game
The hot load I found is 57.7 gr Re17 130 gr VLD #27501 moly 3.34" 270Win 22" barrel.
Chronographs 3,228 fps
All 5 cases are stiff force to re prime.
Quickload predicts 3,219 fps 70,604 psi
When I look at Kombayotch's Re17 data, I might get 6.6% velocity variation between -10 F to +170 F.
If I subtract off 6.6% from 3219 fps I get 3020 fps.
--------------------------------------
But if I use an extreme powder, 52.3 gr H4895 QL says 3145 fps 70k psi.
If I look at Hodgdon's H4895 data, I might get .6% velocity change between 0 F and +125 F.
If I subtract off .84% [extrapolating to normalize to Kombayothch's temp range] I get 3119 fps
------------------------------------------
What does it all mean?
RE17 changes in trajectory [less long range accuracy]
RE17 changes in velocity [ less power]
What does THAT mean?
When I work up a load, and find the max load with long brass life, I have to subtract off that load my own safety margin for variations, to make a useful load.
That safety margin would have to be so large for Re17, that it would wind up being a wimpy load as well as a more variable trajectory useful load.
But with the extreme powder, the safety margin, to reduce below the threshold of long brass life, is smaller, resulting in a more powerful and more stable trajectory useful load.
------------------------
What other things contribute to the calculation of safety margin besides powder temperature variations?
*Shot to shot powder charge variation
*case to case volume variation
*Cartridge to cartridge over all length variation
*Bullet to bullet weight variation
*Primer to primer power variation
*Cartridge to cartridge neck tension variation
*Intended use of the ammo from targets to dangerous game
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
I use RL15 in my 308 loads because it has produced the most accurate rounds in my rifle.
Is it temp sensitive?
Yup, sure is, but one of the nice things about using the OCW or Ladder method for load development is that the POI shift is minimal even though the charge weight is effectively changing.
I considered switching powders, but since I have forty pounds of RL15 and an accurate load that doesn't change POI with ambient temperature, I decided to just stick with what has been working and spend that money on bullets.
Now I just need to resist the temptation to start using the Hornady 178 OTM in place of the Sierra 175 SMK.
I use RL15 in my 308 loads because it has produced the most accurate rounds in my rifle.
Is it temp sensitive?
Yup, sure is, but one of the nice things about using the OCW or Ladder method for load development is that the POI shift is minimal even though the charge weight is effectively changing.
I considered switching powders, but since I have forty pounds of RL15 and an accurate load that doesn't change POI with ambient temperature, I decided to just stick with what has been working and spend that money on bullets.
Now I just need to resist the temptation to start using the Hornady 178 OTM in place of the Sierra 175 SMK.
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
Even with OCW, a large shift in velocity will pull you off the node. Velocity, pressure and barrel time are all proportional to each other. If one is changing, so are the others. They have to, that's physics. If you know what velocity range keeps you on your OCW node and you know how much your powder shifts with temperature, you can calculate between what temperatures your load will stay on that OCW node.
To answer the OP's original question "why still use a temperature sensitive powder". Because they generally can give a higher velocity than the stable ones and that's nice if you're only shooting the load at one time of the year. It's very gratifying to launch a 208 AMAX out of a short barreled 308 at 2600+ fps. in front of an F-class guy who is shooting a 155 Scenar with Varget load and flapping his gums about the advantage the velocity of his longer barrel gives him in ballistics. You always get a nice jaw drop when you run the ballistics and show him that you've got 20" less wind drift than he does with your load, in your short barrel...
Even with OCW, a large shift in velocity will pull you off the node. Velocity, pressure and barrel time are all proportional to each other. If one is changing, so are the others. They have to, that's physics. If you know what velocity range keeps you on your OCW node and you know how much your powder shifts with temperature, you can calculate between what temperatures your load will stay on that OCW node.
To answer the OP's original question "why still use a temperature sensitive powder". Because they generally can give a higher velocity than the stable ones and that's nice if you're only shooting the load at one time of the year. It's very gratifying to launch a 208 AMAX out of a short barreled 308 at 2600+ fps. in front of an F-class guy who is shooting a 155 Scenar with Varget load and flapping his gums about the advantage the velocity of his longer barrel gives him in ballistics. You always get a nice jaw drop when you run the ballistics and show him that you've got 20" less wind drift than he does with your load, in your short barrel...
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
yeah we are using the RL15 in a sps tactical and it shoots lights out. We can't get varget to do that.
yeah we are using the RL15 in a sps tactical and it shoots lights out. We can't get varget to do that.
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
Is there a major difference in IMR4350 and H4350 so far as tempsensitivity and consistent accuracy. I have been reloading with IMR for as log as I can remember, but have noticed in here that everyone talks about H4350 instead of IMR. Please inform this noob. Thx.
Thread hijack has now ended.
Is there a major difference in IMR4350 and H4350 so far as tempsensitivity and consistent accuracy. I have been reloading with IMR for as log as I can remember, but have noticed in here that everyone talks about H4350 instead of IMR. Please inform this noob. Thx.
Thread hijack has now ended.
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all the new powders out that aren't effected by temperature, why still use the other stuff like RL-15?? Wouldn't you rather give up a little accuracy to be able to know that your powder is going to burn the same???</div></div>
43-44g of RL-15 has worked very well for me (308W, 175gr SMK, 2.80oal) from 10-105 degrees F. Good, accurate load.
While not the most extreme temp variations, pretty good spread with good performance. Maybe if I were pushing the envelope a bit more there would be a problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all the new powders out that aren't effected by temperature, why still use the other stuff like RL-15?? Wouldn't you rather give up a little accuracy to be able to know that your powder is going to burn the same???</div></div>
43-44g of RL-15 has worked very well for me (308W, 175gr SMK, 2.80oal) from 10-105 degrees F. Good, accurate load.
While not the most extreme temp variations, pretty good spread with good performance. Maybe if I were pushing the envelope a bit more there would be a problem?
Re: Why still use temp sensitve powders?????
I try to teach this to locals,But they just do what they want anyway,They chase there tail and when They catch it they bite there own ass.. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Even with OCW, a large shift in velocity will pull you off the node. Velocity, pressure and barrel time are all proportional to each other. If one is changing, so are the others. They have to, that's physics. <span style="color: #FF0000">If you know what velocity range keeps you on your OCW node and you know how much your powder shifts with temperature, you can calculate between what temperatures your load will stay on that OCW node.</span>To answer the OP's original question "why still use a temperature sensitive powder". Because they generally can give a higher velocity than the stable ones and that's nice if you're only shooting the load at one time of the year. It's very gratifying to launch a 208 AMAX out of a short barreled 308 at 2600+ fps. in front of an F-class guy who is shooting a 155 Scenar with Varget load and flapping his gums about the advantage the velocity of his longer barrel gives him in ballistics. You always get a nice jaw drop when you run the ballistics and show him that you've got 20" less wind drift than he does with your load, in your short barrel... </div></div>
I try to teach this to locals,But they just do what they want anyway,They chase there tail and when They catch it they bite there own ass.. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Even with OCW, a large shift in velocity will pull you off the node. Velocity, pressure and barrel time are all proportional to each other. If one is changing, so are the others. They have to, that's physics. <span style="color: #FF0000">If you know what velocity range keeps you on your OCW node and you know how much your powder shifts with temperature, you can calculate between what temperatures your load will stay on that OCW node.</span>To answer the OP's original question "why still use a temperature sensitive powder". Because they generally can give a higher velocity than the stable ones and that's nice if you're only shooting the load at one time of the year. It's very gratifying to launch a 208 AMAX out of a short barreled 308 at 2600+ fps. in front of an F-class guy who is shooting a 155 Scenar with Varget load and flapping his gums about the advantage the velocity of his longer barrel gives him in ballistics. You always get a nice jaw drop when you run the ballistics and show him that you've got 20" less wind drift than he does with your load, in your short barrel... </div></div>
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