Why the Controversey over Creedmoor 6.5?

[steve123]

River, you mentioned the popularity of 6mm and 6.5. Some of the main reasons these are chosen is the combination of high BC match grade bullets, which aid in having less wind drift, have a flat-ish trajectory, and have low recoil which makes self spotting right after the shot easier to see through the scope, especially in a compromised position. Also if a guy is firing 100 rounds a day there is less shooter fatigue.
The truth is these cartridges are great for extended shooting sessions because they are so mild to shoot as well as capable long range performers.

So even though bigger cartridges that send out higher BC bullets even faster than the 6's and 6.5's exist, these usually don't get used in PRS or NRL matches because they are more expensive to shoot, and recoil much more. Or because of the same reasons aren't popular for general long range shooting.
Yeah sure, a 375 Cheytac would be superior to those pipsqueak 6's at long range in most ways ballistically but how often will a guy shoot it???

The question begs, what cartridge will you be likely to use and shoot the most.

Let's assume that a number of good choices in bullets exist for each caliber for hunting so I won't - go there.
But let's also assume that some hunting bullets might not be as accurate or have as a high a BC as some match bullets. However some hunting bullet can have as much, or more BC and be just as accurate.
Big difference if I were to guess if shooting a two legged critter vs a 4 legged critter. I don't think the tough bullet thing applies nearly as much.

Other things to consider are how heavy a rifle to get, or build, and whether to use a muzzle brake or suppressor.

Also it's a great idea to start reloading your own ammo if you don't already.

 

[Tokay444]

LO FUCKING L at bringing a belted long action magnum up, only to still be bested by the little 6.5.

 

[BadAccountant]

Grin....!

Knowing how to shoot, and when to shoot is 99% of killing critters, or any other thing for that matter.

I think you hit on the crux of Randy's gripe right here.

PRS/F-class/gun nuts like plenty of us on this forum are not going to have a problem with a 500 yard shot on an animal with a 6.5 CM/6 CM/6.5x47/6x47/Dasher/GT or any other competition-ready caliber that we have repurposed for hunting use.

A bad shot with a 300 WM from an inexperienced shooter is still just as ineffective at dropping game as a bad shot from a 6.5 CM, and most people are more comfortable with a 6.5 CM.

 

[iceng]

Complacency on knowledge and skill is the problem here. Any gunsmith worth a damn knows they are not that great, and can always learn and get better. Gunsmiths should be striving to learn and experiment, and constantly pushing boundaries. Be it methods in machining, bedding, engineering, etc.

This is why people experiment with types of coolants, thru coolant on chambering, wild cats, barrel lengths and twist rates, bedding compound types, etc.

Any 'smith who doesnt, is no longer a 'smith.

Why don't we drive cars with drum brakes and carbies anymore ? Technology changes, if you stop learning, you will get left behind and end up complaining on the interwebs.

Now excuse me, I need to tell at some kids to get off my lawn.

 

[kozzman555]

Complacency on knowledge and skill is the problem here. Any gunsmith worth a damn knows they are not that great, and can always learn and get better. Gunsmiths should be striving to learn and experiment, and constantly pushing boundaries. Be it methods in machining, bedding, engineering, etc.

This is why people experiment with types of coolants, thru coolant on chambering, wild cats, barrel lengths and twist rates, bedding compound types, etc.

Any 'smith who doesnt, is no longer a 'smith.

Why don't we drive cars with drum brakes and carbies anymore ? Technology changes, if you stop learning, you will get left behind and end up complaining on the interwebs.

Now excuse me, I need to tell at some kids to get off my lawn.

Don't forget to tell them to turn down their music.

 

[DJL2]

The points made in the first video was that target bullets are not made to kill people or animals. That's why I asked here, looking for some hard data/info about it (still looking).

Oh, dear. I’ll play. Go here: www.ballisticstudies.com and read Nathan Foster‘s stuff. You are not likely to find a more ardent proponent of using match bullets on game. The ELD (and the AMax before it) are outstanding hunting bullets that have been used to great success by a number of folks. Granted, folks like John Lazzeroni and @coldboremiracle are carrying the torch on this side of the pond, so you don’t have to take a Kiwi‘s word for it.

Back in the 90s, when everyone was still very much stuck in bigger and faster mode, Lazzeroni came out with the original Ultra Magnum and Short Magnum lines with rifles to match. He shot a lot of match bullets that were known to be questionable performers and when asked about it he statEd (more or less) “I can account for bad ballistic performance with shot selection and placement, but you can’t kill what you can’t hit, so I shoot what I can hit with.”

 

[Lesch]

The 6.5 cm is the man bun, vaping, latte drinking, skinny jeans wearing, vegan of the gun world.....

 

[iceng]

In a world of 6mm's

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

Im nnot reading 3 pages because some dudes can't get out of the 20s on youtube. I did read something about the military using 308 because it is better in the first page.

If i recall correctly the military has m110 sass uppers coming in 6.5 creedmoor.

Bottom line iif you hit a guy in the arm with a 308 its not going to kill him either. Pick one, buy great glass and get training on it.

 

[UTB]

At my club our club rifles are 223 or 308, I let the new people shoot my 6.5cm, they all buy one instead of the 308 they assumed they were getting.

 

[Travelor]

I think you guys have way too much time on your hands right now.

Bad guys must me close in a civilian SHTF environment to justify shooting them.

 

[Jaron3]

If you were a high end gunsmith and had a bunch of customer issues based on bad reamer specs or whatever you would more than likely have a bad taste in your mouth as well. Perspective is everything.

Or get another reamer that’s within spec?

 

[Campguy308]

What a shit show.

 

[Steel head]

What a shit show.

 

[steve123]

River, you mentioned the popularity of 6mm and 6.5. Some of the main reasons these are chosen is the combination of high BC match grade bullets, which aid in having less wind drift, have a flat-ish trajectory, and have low recoil which makes self spotting right after the shot easier to see through the scope, especially in a compromised position. Also if a guy is firing 100 rounds a day there is less shooter fatigue.
The truth is these cartridges are great for extended shooting sessions because they are so mild to shoot as well as capable long range performers.

So even though bigger cartridges that send out higher BC bullets even faster than the 6's and 6.5's exist, these usually don't get used in PRS or NRL matches because they are more expensive to shoot, and recoil much more. Or because of the same reasons aren't popular for general long range shooting.
Yeah sure, a 375 Cheytac would be superior to those pipsqueak 6's at long range in most ways ballistically but how often will a guy shoot it???

The question begs, what cartridge will you be likely to use and shoot the most.

Let's assume that a number of good choices in bullets exist for each caliber for hunting so I won't - go there.
But let's also assume that some hunting bullets might not be as accurate or have as a high a BC as some match bullets. However some hunting bullets can have as much, or more BC and be just as accurate.
Big difference if I were to guess if shooting a two legged critter vs a 4 legged critter. I don't think the tough bullet thing applies nearly as much.

Other things to consider are how heavy a rifle to get, or build, and whether to use a muzzle brake or suppressor.

Also it's a great idea to start reloading your own ammo if you don't already.

I thought more about the bullet subject and I do think I'll get into it a little bit after all.
From what I've read the arrival velocity of a bullet directly affects it's rate of expansion. So a lighter constructed bullet might be better for expanding at farther distances at lower arrival velocity but a heavier constructed bullet might be better for medium distances at higher arrival velocity.
Though there's different schools of thought on whether a double lung and pass through hit is more effective than a quick energy dump, with more expansion, causing a larger would channel, being more effective at killing.
Then there's a hit on the ribs vs a bullet missing a rib.
Thick skinned game vs thin skinned game.
On and on...

I don't hunt much honestly but I did see a 212gr eldm from a 300WM splash on a Antelope's high shoulder bone at 450Y, not me doing the shooting BTW. It was severely wounded so it had to be put down when we walked up. That bullet would likely have been fine had the shot been in the vitals, and I doubt a heavier constructed bullet placed in the exact high shoulder spot would have made any difference.



I've seen and read different outcomes with bullets in Coyote hunting. Same box of bullets out of the same gun and cartridge, but some go through with a big exit wound, some splash without much penetration, and most go in amply and dump all the energy.

Research and pick what bullet seems best to you for the application I guess??!! The outcome is a gamble how it will perform depending....

 

[coldboremiracle]

Targets bullets kill just as well,

Shot placement, that is what kills shit.
Hell a Sierra Match King is a Target bullet, that is used in the military ammo.

I can go get images all day of target bullet kills, I know one guy alone that has 100s of them.

Grin....!

Knowing how to shoot, and when to shoot is 99% of killing critters, or any other thing for that matter.

^This should have been the end of this discussion, and fuck that stupid ass Fudd the real gunsmith.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

WTF? IF we're talking ethical kills, why the fuck are we even discussing shots beyond 300 yards? There's what's possible an what's ethical. IMO, any shot beyond 300 yards is not ethical. You may be able, you may take it. But it's not ethical, it's sport. I don't give a shit if you do, just don't claim to be "ethical". You're pushing your limits and that's fine. But don't claim you're "ethical".

 

[fdkay]

I've been reading a lot, would like to get into long range shooting of some sort. Crazy I know but my underlying motivation is if things went south somehow, I could defend my ranch and family from a long ways away. Will never happen I know but it would give me great comfort to have a precision rifle on the wall knowing I am able to use it. In the meantime practicing will be a blast.

So, the 6.5 and 6 mm cartridges are very popular now. But some older guys on youtube say these target rounds are not suitable for hitting alive things. So if it came to it, would the 6.5 and 6 cartridges really be good for defense against bad guys? I read that the US Military is trying out 6.5 Creedmoor for its snipers. Are there different 6.5 Creedmoors with differently constructed bullets?

Obviously I'm a beginner, never had a centerfire yet. Any wisdom that might help me choose the right caliber for me would be appreciated.

Examples:

Real Gunsmith -- gotta respect this guy at least a little







GunBlue -- bit of a blowhard but knowledgeable sometimes
(go to 32:40)


But Hickock45 likes it:
https://www.full30.com/watch/MDA5NTc4/savage-model-10-ba-stealth-65-creedmoor (go to 17:25)

The 6.5x55 Swede was designed in 1891.
It is still in use today.
Both the .260 rem and 6.5 CM are short action variants of this fine old, medium action cartridge. They all are very similar in performance.
They will all kill shit a lot farther away.
They all carry more energy at 1000 yards than the .308 does (this is VERY bullet dependent).
The Swedes have been using the 6.5 to hunt moose for over 130 years. Their moose is similar in size to our elk.
Someone very early in the thread mentioned sectional density, but they were a bit mistaken in their definition, sectional density is a ratio of a bullets MASS to its cross sectional area. A long heavy bullet has a higher sectional density that a shorter bullet of the same weight.
For example, a 6.5 cal 147 ELDM has a sectional density of .301
a .30 cal 178 ELDM has a sectional density of .268

But, that doesn't tell the whole tale. The 147 is flying faster, penetration is frequently inversely proportional to velocity.
The 178 has a significant advantage in mass.
The 147 will remain supersonic to further distances.
The .308 is more efficient from shorter barrels. The .308 is much easier on barrels.

BOTH will get the job done, There is a plethora of ammo available for both cartridges. Both are easy to reload for. The 6.5 has lower recoil, is a bit easier to shoot extended sessions and offers faster follow up shots.
So, the answer to your question is the 7-08 with handloads of 162 grain ELD's over a stiff charge of 6.5 sta-ball powder.

 

[Tokay444]

WTF? IF we're talking ethical kills, why the fuck are we even discussing shots beyond 300 yards? There's what's possible an what's ethical. IMO, any shot beyond 300 yards is not ethical. You may be able, you may take it. But it's not ethical, it's sport. I don't give a shit if you do, just don't claim to be "ethical". You're pushing your limits and that's fine. But don't claim you're "ethical".

That's some Fudd shit right thur.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

That's some Fudd shit right thur.

Not really. I clearly stated it can be done and I don't care if you do. But don't claim to be "ethical". There's way too many factors to consider beyond 300 yards beyond "can I make that hit?". But I'm sure you're some hunting stud, so school me. ?

 

[Tokay444]

Not really. I clearly stated it can be done and I don't care if you do. But don't claim to be "ethical". There's way too many factors to consider beyond 300 yards beyond "can I make that hit?". But I'm sure you're some hunting stud, so school me. ?

It can be done ethically past 300.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

It can be done ethically past 300.

How? Any ethical shot taken, regardless of distance, would ask "What if I miss?". What happens if you miss at 300 yards? A "miss" meaning not a clean shot but a wounding shot.

Really, "it can be done ethically past 300" is not an answer. It's an opinion.

 

[Rob01]

IMO, any shot beyond 300 yards is not ethical.

You mean just like this opinion?

 

[Supersubes]

I’m not reading all that shit, because I can see right away you missed the part about comparing the worst of a .300 win mag to the best of a 6.5 creed. Go ahead and run those numbers this time use ELD match for the .300 win mag instead of some low BC SMK.

The context matters here. In the mid 2000’s, that 190 smk load was what everyone was shooting. There were no fancy high BC 30’s like the selection we had today. Literally nobody was shooting the 220/240 smk’s either. This is the era the 300wm comparison comes from.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

You mean just like this opinion?

Sort of. But I back my opinion with some substance and reasoning. Not "It can be done".

I know it can be done. It has been done and will be done. And, again, I'm not telling you not to do it. Just don't claim to be "ethical". It's not. It's sporting. Any ethical shot takes all the negative possibilities into account. Beyond 300 yards, tracking becomes are serious challenge if you just "wound" an animal. Beyond 300, all your mistakes are magnified to the point of not being acceptable.

 

[Rob01]

The whole 300WM vs 6.5 Creedmoor comparison is stupid to begin with. A long action belted mag compared to a short action round. Stupid.

 

[Supersubes]

Complacency on knowledge and skill is the problem here. Any gunsmith worth a damn knows they are not that great, and can always learn and get better. Gunsmiths should be striving to learn and experiment, and constantly pushing boundaries. Be it methods in machining, bedding, engineering, etc.

This is why people experiment with types of coolants, thru coolant on chambering, wild cats, barrel lengths and twist rates, bedding compound types, etc.

Any 'smith who doesnt, is no longer a 'smith.

Why don't we drive cars with drum brakes and carbies anymore ? Technology changes, if you stop learning, you will get left behind and end up complaining on the interwebs.

Now excuse me, I need to tell at some kids to get off my lawn.

I’m guessing you haven’t met many gunsmiths, or you’ve failed to notice how long it traditionally took to get a rifle built. They’re not exactly swimming with free time. Your ideals of what a gunsmith should be are far from reality.

 

[DangerRanger]

So can we just pm you so you can enlighten us on what’s ethical or not in our day to day or do we have to rely on you gracing a thread with your wisdom

I can’t stand when a 400 yard shot is considered unethical while bow hunters walk around chucking sticks at them.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

So can we just pm you so you can enlighten us on what’s ethical or not in our day to day or do we have to rely on you gracing a thread with your wisdom

You can PM.

You could also put forth a reasonable argument as to why beyond 300 is ethical and not just sporting.

 

[Rob01]

Sort of. But I back my opinion with some substance and reasoning. Not "It can be done".

I know it can be done. It has been done and will be done. And, again, I'm not telling you not to do it. Just don't claim to be "ethical". It's not. It's sporting. Any ethical shot takes all the negative possibilities into account. Beyond 300 yards, tracking becomes are serious challenge if you just "wound" an animal. Beyond 300, all your mistakes are magnified to the point of not being acceptable.

You back it with more opinion. You can call all the writing what you like but it's only your opinion it's not ethical. Plenty ethical for people with the skill level to take the shots. Comes down to the shooter. You don't feel like you can do it. That's fine. Others can.

 

[acudaowner]

I know nothing of this drama you are speaking of nothing just that god loves 6.5 creedmoor this I know for the bible told me so ...

 

[Jefe's Dope]

You back it with more opinion. You can call all the writing what you like but it's only your opinion it's not ethical. Plenty ethical for people with the skill level to take the shots. Comes down to the shooter. You don't feel like you can do it. That's fine. Others can.

I stated it was my opinion from the start. Not arguing with you about that. I'm still providing substance beyond "You can.".

You may believe it's ethical. I don't. And I stand by that. There's too much out of your control to make 300 yards and beyond ethical.

 

[308pirate]

- I've read that military policy is more concerned with wounding than killing. A wounded soldier takes 2 additional soldiers to drag him back to the medic, so that's 3 out of action. But that's the military.

Can people stop repeating this crap?

 

[308pirate]

I've been reading a lot, would like to get into long range shooting of some sort. Crazy I know but my underlying motivation is if things went south somehow, I could defend my ranch and family from a long ways away. Will never happen I know but it would give me great comfort to have a precision rifle on the wall knowing I am able to use it. In the meantime practicing will be a blast.

So, the 6.5 and 6 mm cartridges are very popular now. But some older guys on youtube say these target rounds are not suitable for hitting alive things. So if it came to it, would the 6.5 and 6 cartridges really be good for defense against bad guys? I read that the US Military is trying out 6.5 Creedmoor for its snipers. Are there different 6.5 Creedmoors with differently constructed bullets?

Obviously I'm a beginner, never had a centerfire yet. Any wisdom that might help me choose the right caliber for me would be appreciated.

Examples:

Real Gunsmith -- gotta respect this guy at least a little







GunBlue -- bit of a blowhard but knowledgeable sometimes
(go to 32:40)


But Hickock45 likes it:
https://www.full30.com/watch/MDA5NTc4/savage-model-10-ba-stealth-65-creedmoor (go to 17:25)

Please, for the love of God stop listening to fudds. Particularly those who call themselves experts on youtube.

I'm not even going to watch those videos. I already know it's going to be a monumental waste of time.

 

[Steel head]

WTF? IF we're talking ethical kills, why the fuck are we even discussing shots beyond 300 yards? There's what's possible an what's ethical. IMO, any shot beyond 300 yards is not ethical. You may be able, you may take it. But it's not ethical, it's sport. I don't give a shit if you do, just don't claim to be "ethical". You're pushing your limits and that's fine. But don't claim you're "ethical".

I agree with you but I feel it’s a bit further than 300.
Two factors I primarily use are time of flight and wind effects.
If your bullet is taking a second to get there a lot of bad things can happen during that time.
I Also want a shot where a absolutely perfect wind call isn’t a necessity.
These animals are dying to satisfy your hobby, not because you’re desperately trying to feed yourself and family.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Two factors I primarily use are time of flight and wind effects.
If your bullet is taking a second to get there a lot of bad things can happen during that time.

Completely out of your control what happens once the bullet leaves the barrel. The farther the target, the more can happen.

 

[dang472]

Hornady ELDm works for me

 

[308pirate]

Not really. I clearly stated it can be done and I don't care if you do. But don't claim to be "ethical". There's way too many factors to consider beyond 300 yards beyond "can I make that hit?". But I'm sure you're some hunting stud, so school me. ?

You don't get to define what's ethical and what's not for others when it comes the distance that one person chooses to kill game.

 

[Tokay444]

Sort of. But I back my opinion with some substance and reasoning. Not "It can be done".

I know it can be done. It has been done and will be done. And, again, I'm not telling you not to do it. Just don't claim to be "ethical". It's not. It's sporting. Any ethical shot takes all the negative possibilities into account. Beyond 300 yards, tracking becomes are serious challenge if you just "wound" an animal. Beyond 300, all your mistakes are magnified to the point of not being acceptable.

My cartridge of choice and its load carry 1000lb/ft of energy to 825 yards, so IF (big fucking if) I miss at 500, that animal is still going to die very quickly.
How's that for substance?

 

[-Time-]

Completely out of your control what happens once the bullet leaves the barrel. The farther the target, the more can happen.

What factors lead you to the opinion that 300 yards is the maximum ethical hunting distance? How rigid is your opinion? You wouldn’t take a shot on game at 310yds, but you’d shoot to 300yds all day long?

 

[308pirate]

This whole ethics thing is so situational dependent when it comes to distance that any hard and fast "rule" is a complete joke and waste of time.

The ethical shot today at 500 yards could be completely unethical tomorrow, depending on any number of variables.

 

[NineHotel]

OK let's get to the truth about the Creedmoor. Let's start with its inception.

Hornady's VP of marketing told me directly this info - not hearsay, not repeating something I heard. He told me Hornady, at that time, was introducing 6 new products per year, an average of one every two months. In that scenario, some are gonna stick and some are not, particularly when it comes to new chamberings.

Hornady partnered with Dennis DeMille, who owns Creedmoor Sports, and is a former Highpower Rifle National champion. Hornady and Dennis introduced the cartridge at the National Matches at Camp Perry. I forget the year. Dennis shot it in the matches in a Tubb 2000 bolt rifle. He was shooting factory Hornady ammo as part of this debut.

The rifle/ammo combo Dennis shot, quite frankly, did not perform well from an accuracy perspective. Given that the NRA target is rather forgiving ( 2 MOA 10 ring on the 600 yard target), it was not a great debut for the chambering. Does that mean it was a bad cartridge? No, it just meant that more development needed done on the factory ammo to work with that specific use case. CP can be an unforgiving place. Many a folk have had a rifle/ammo combo all worked out ahead for these matches, then get there and run into all sorts of pressure and accuracy issues. Heck some even plan to load while there to account for this.

So the question is - does the market really NEED a different 6.5mm cartridge, with the 260 and 6.5x55 already in existence?

Fast forward oh 10 years, which I think is about the interval since the debut, what do we have? Well, we have a chambering that is well designed; capacity, body taper, shoulder angle, neck length - all favorable for an easy to feed, easy to load, non-overbore efficient chambering. What else do we have? We have broad market availability of loaded ammo and empty cases. We also have a 6mm variant available with NO OTHER CHANGES to the case dimensions.... that is significant given the way chamberings were developed 60 years ago, where body dimensions were altered along with the bullet diameters, in an effort around safety. Study the 300WM/7MM Mag/338 Mag for examples of how things used to be done.

Did the market/community benefit from the Creedmoor? My belief is yes. Especially yes for me, as I shoot a 6mm/250, my effort to get the same ballistics out of a commonly available case, and I can fireform my existing ammo and use the 22-250 cases in the 6mm Creedmoor. The issue with my approach is the 250 Savage case has too much body taper to feed well in detachable box magazines. Going to the Creedmoor body dimensions solves this problem.

So the Creedmoor case is here to stay, which is a good thing IMO. Now back to the 308 controversy.

Ubiquity. Ammo availability. That is what 762 NATO has going for it. We've (meaning me and a friend, both accomplished square range rifle shooters) did side-side testing at 1040 yards with the 308 and 260, me running 175 SMKs and 155 Scenars, him running 142 SMKs. Calling wind for each other, spotting for each other, pair firing. This exercise will show you very quickly - the cone of dispersion and predictability of the 260 in varying conditions is waaay better in the non-overbore 6.5, beyond 800 yards. Up to and including 800 yards, they are pretty similar, with the edge going to the 6.5 of course.

The other consideration is recoil and recoil control effecting your cone of dispersion/POI variation in actual field conditions. Less recoil means less dispersion when errors/variance in pressure on the WS by the shooter occur, and have no doubt, they DO occur. The 6.5 wins here as well.

Down range energy - yes at some point depending on which projectile is being fired, there is a crossover point where the 6.5 takes over with energy on target. That is reality, easily shown with ballistic calculations.

Will I have a 308? Yes, multiples of them. Will I have a 6.5? I had a 6.5x284 (square range 1k rifle) that is gone now; I'm not looking to add a chambering in 6.5 at this time as I'm a 6mm fan for field work. BUT, if I did, it would be the Creed for reasons sited above, and, if/when I change 6mm chamberings, it will be for the Creed case. Oh and having a zero and data for M80 Ball rounds as part of your 762/308 kit is something I highly recommend. This allows you to exploit its least common denominator of the ammo to your benefit as part of having a rifle on hand with this chambering.

 

[Tokay444]

Here's 50 shots that say FUCK your 300 yard wall.
Pay close attention at 4:39 seconds. 1380 yards, animal on the move. Dropped. Dead. In fact,it dropped faster than ALL the ones from 300 on in.

 

[Lowlight]

The logistics argument that helped the 308 continue to reign king is gone, which is why we see people moving from it.

In the past you had the argument for a 308 saying you can find it everywhere, it's the same argument the preppers make for .22s. Today that is out the window and yes, Hornady is responsible for making it widely available, which is a good thing.

The 260 suffered because of Remington, it did not have the foresight to promote it, but then again, very little was promoted then like it is today. If we go back to this site, and @Greg Langelius * called it here in 2001 that the 6.5 was the correct answer.

The issue with the 260 is, the caliber used to get loaded really long when using match bullets and they would catch the lands and pull out in a lot of rifles. It was hit or miss due to ignorance on what would work, how to adjust. We fast forward many years and the 6.5CM helped answer that question by being a tick shorter. It's the same argument the 6.5x47 made, we can load long and not catch the lands. It fit in a magazine.

to me, it no longer matters what 6.5, the caliber is beyond proven. The 308 is absolutely capable, we just decided to leave it alone rather than adjust it, which makes sense. If you think about it, you can do the same thing to a 308, figure out how to how to hot rod it a bit more drop the barrel life for a more efficient wildcat variant. Maybe it means creating a factory Ackley variant and dropping the bullet weight a bit. but why bother.

Here is your minute of Zen, this is an Army rifle from 2015, it's a 260 being field by the tip of the spear,

The recoil argument is super valid too,

 

[Jefe's Dope]

You don't get to define what's ethical and what's not for others when it comes the distance that one person chooses to kill game.

You're right. Math, science, geometry and outside forces do.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

My cartridge of choice and its load carry 1000lb/ft of energy to 825 yards, so IF (big fucking if) I miss at 500, that animal is still going to die very quickly.
How's that for substance?

You're just lost.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

What factors lead you to the opinion that 300 yards is the maximum ethical hunting distance? How rigid is your opinion? You wouldn’t take a shot on game at 310yds, but you’d shoot to 300yds all day long?

Math. Time and distance specifically. There's many other contributors to mention like wind, etc. that are completely out of your control. The time/distance is controllable but the time after the bullet exits the barrel is not.

And yes, I imagine it is fluid to an extent.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

This whole ethics thing is so situational dependent when it comes to distance that any hard and fast "rule" is a complete joke and waste of time.

The ethical shot today at 500 yards could be completely unethical tomorrow, depending on any number of variables.

It's not. Math is static and never changes. Unless we're talking lasers. Then it changes. Speed of light and all.

 

[Rob01]

You're right. Math, science, geometry and outside forces do.

And the answer is not always 300 yards.

 

[308pirate]

It's not. Math is static and never changes. Unless we're talking lasers. Then it changes. Speed of light and all.

I think you're too dense to continue this conversation with.