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Why the M40?

P

Pete E

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
May 2, 2004
289
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North Wales, UK
#1
I am just wondering why the M40 of all vintages seem so highly regarded here, and yet you hardly ever hear of people lusting after M24?

Besides the M24 being a long action, what other differences are there? I believe both use the same 40x Remington action for instance???

As the Maries build the M40's "inhouse", are they perceived to be better made than the M24?

Regards,

Peter
 
#4
Re: Why the M40?

for us that served in the Army the M24 is very coveted too as a signature rifle. Since it is still in service and the M40 is not that is also why the M40 has a great following due to its history. I think after the M24 is put out of service, not far off, it will be looked at nostalgically like the M40 by those that carried it.
 
#5
Re: Why the M40?

Because the M40 is sex-e beyond all reason. Some people just want to have 'spec' rifles and dig the look of the M40. They both perform, no question, but nothing is sex-e-er than a spec M40....
 
#6
Re: Why the M40?

I have to confess, I don't understand why people build M40 clones either.

I can understand wanting to have an original, (which I believe are not very available to civvies) but building a "clone" is a bit like a stamp collector photocopying a very rare stamp!

Somehow after building a nice accurate Rem 700 actioned rifle, sticking an "almost" period 3-9x40 Redfield on it seems a bit of a waste!



 
#7
Re: Why the M40?

Ditto the above.

They were a fine weapon platform in thier day but for the same money you are dumping into a M40 clone, you could certainly improve some of your component choices to build a more complete rifle.

Although I have to admit -- my grandfather built a clone M1 garand similar to what he had when he was in WWII because thats what he was a rifleman with, and spent untold gobs of time getting his to where he liked it.

To each their own, I suppose.
 
#8
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Marines build the M40A1 and later in house. IIRC the M40 was built by Remington.

Many "lust" after them because they are a Military custom rifle. Some of us just want the rifle we carried for some time. </div></div>

+1 This has awlays been my guess. Some people like them strictly as a collector's item. Different strokes for different folks.

I would not spend the money to build one, as I have not learned to appreciate it like the folks listed in the quoted post above. I have other needs and like the current & most up to date gear. ie. Surgeon 591 integrated rail, A5s, etc.
 
#9
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete E</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to confess, I don't understand why people build M40 clones either.

I can understand wanting to have an original, (which I believe are not very available to civvies) but building a "clone" is a bit like a stamp collector photocopying a very rare stamp!

Somehow after building a nice accurate Rem 700 actioned rifle, sticking an "almost" period 3-9x40 Redfield on it seems a bit of a waste!


I think people like the Simple "Old School" look of the M40. I know I do. Tacticle rifles are getting silly looking with all of the crap haning off of all of the rails on them and such. I for one like the simple M40 or M24 look. Some like blondes, some brunetttes and some redheads!


</div></div>
 
#10
Re: Why the M40?

The reason I like and love my M40A1 is becuase it is a simple accurate rifle. No unneeded adjustments, no extra frills, and its a very comfortable rifle to shoot and carry. No I have never used one but it is a very nice rifle. It's not an exact clone but the barrel length, profile, stock and sling are identical to an M40A1. It's a wonderfully simple rifle that gets the job done, whether it's hunting or shooting. Thats the reason I love mine and I'm sure other people like if for much of the same reasons.
 
#11
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticFun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason I like and love my M40A1 is becuase it is a simple accurate rifle. No unneeded adjustments, no extra frills, and its a very comfortable rifle to shoot and carry. No I have never used one but it is a very nice rifle. It's not an exact clone but the barrel length, profile, stock and sling are identical to an M40A1. It's a wonderfully simple rifle that gets the job done, whether it's hunting or shooting. Thats the reason I love mine and I'm sure other people like if for much of the same reasons. </div></div>

Exactly what he said. It's a piece of history that is a blast to shoot too.
 
#12
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete E</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to confess, I don't understand why people build M40 clones either.

I can understand wanting to have an original, (which I believe are not very available to civvies) but building a "clone" is a bit like a stamp collector photocopying a very rare stamp! </div></div>

Actually a civilian has access to any of the parts to build any of the M40 series from the original to the A5. There is nothing secret about the techniques and if you know where to go you can even have one built by a Marine Match Armorer who did it for the Marine Corps. The only difference between a "spec" M40 and a issued M40 is if it was used in combat or not.

If you take a look at my example I am building a M40A1 clone. It's on a return stock with original pieces. Once I locate a "C" series receiver and have the right guy screw it all together it will be indistinguishable from the rifle I checked out of the armory.

Now the ONLY reason I want one, is because I had to give mine back when I left active service.

My current work rifle is better suited to Sniping than the M40A1 was. However it's not a USMC M40A1 Sniper Rifle.

If you just want an accurate rifle for competition or plinking, it would be foolish to build an M40 - M40A5. They are purpose built tools that accommodate compromises and were intended to fit a variety of Marines and missions. You can build something better suited to YOUR purposes for less.

However, some just want to capture the Mojo.

I HAVE seen quite a few folks search for the M24, but it doesn't seem to have the same attraction as the M40A1-A5.

I don't see as many looking to build the original M40. There wasn't a whole lot of "custom" or "special" to that rifle, and it was really poorly suited to it's mission. If you take the time to talk to anyone who actually used one of the originals, they will tell you about the problems they had with them. Those were almost all resolved with the M40A1, which in my opinion was almost the best of the M40 series. If they would have put the S&B and A1-3 on the M40A3 they would have had the "perfect" Sniper Rifle. But they didn't ask me.
 
#13
Re: Why the M40?

Are we talking about the M40 here or the M40A1, which is an altogether different kettle of fish. The USMC M40A1 has a huge following here on the Hide, not only because of the availablity of the McMillan return stocks, or that one can get a barrel from Gary Schneider, or the tank of a scope and mount that J. Unertl designed for the rifle. Personally I like the M40 rifle, I think it was because it was actually the first attempt by any of the armed services to put a purpose built rifle in the hands of a soldier. I like the look of the plain jane walnut stock, the classic lines of the monte carlo cheekpiece, my Redfield accurange is a fine piece of glass, no it doesn't compare to modern glass, but for the time it was pretty decent. And for when I want to shoot a little further away, I put one of my better scopes on it, although the Redfield give me sterling service last October during a wet and windy deer hunt. But to each their own.
Marty
 
#14
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DFOOSKING</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I purchased a comm. M40 from remington. I took it over to an SF sniper that was in Viet Nam and well up to the late 80's. He said it was exactly the same as the M24 he was issued.</div></div>

Hmmmm. Very interesting.
 
#15
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete E</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am just wondering why the M40 of all vintages seem so highly regarded here, and yet you hardly ever hear of people lusting after M24?

Besides the M24 being a long action, what other differences are there? I believe both use the same 40x Remington action for instance???

As the Maries build the M40's "inhouse", are they perceived to be better made than the M24?

Regards,

Peter </div></div>


Because we are up to our butts in marines here! I love ya guys but it's thick and hard to breath as a guy from the Army.
 
#17
Re: Why the M40?

Besides the other reasons mentioned, I would bet it has a lot to do with the stock. Most don't care for the HS stock like they do for the McMillan. Also, the M24 is not as practical using the long action for the 308.
 
#18
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Besides the other reasons mentioned, I would bet it has a lot to do with the stock. Most don't care for the HS stock like they do for the McMillan. Also, the M24 is not as practical using the long action for the 308.

</div></div>
+1
 
#19
Re: Why the M40?

Thanks for the replies gents..

I was not trying to be contentious rather just spark some discussions.

People have mention the difference in the stocks between the M24 and the various M40A1 models...Does anybody have any pictures for comparison?
 
#20
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete E</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People have mention the difference in the stocks between the M24 and the various M40A1 models...Does anybody have any pictures for comparison? </div></div>

From TBA (and not totally correct for accessories, but a good example of the stocks)

<span style="font-weight: bold">M24</span>
m24.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold">M40A1</span>
m40a1standard.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold">M40A3</span>
DCP_0729.jpg


The M40's original walnut stock looks very similar to the A1, just in walnut. The M40A5 uses the same stock as the A3.
 
#22
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete E</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People have mention the difference in the stocks between the M24 and the various M40A1 models...Does anybody have any pictures for comparison? </div></div>

From TBA (and not totally correct for accessories, but a good example of the stocks)

<span style="font-weight: bold">M24</span>
m24.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold">M40A1</span>
m40a1standard.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold">M40A3</span>
DCP_0729.jpg


The M40's original walnut stock looks very similar to the A1, just in walnut. The M40A5 uses the same stock as the A3. </div></div>

Hey! Your missing 5lb of duct tape!
 
#24
Re: Why the M40?

The M40 was the USMC's successful attempt at giving its snipers a solid rifle that was accurate and tough as nails. I believe that its appeal is that it was a custom built (by RTE 2112s), built is relatively low numbers, with a scope (Unertl) that was originally not available commercially. All of this adds up to its desirability.

The M24 on the other hand, is a "production" gun, built by the Remington's Custom Shop, with components that are readily available. It was also about a decade later on the scene.

I ran into Bill Wiseman at the NRA convention in Charlotte last month, and when I asked him if he was the same gentlemen who was involved in the M40 design, his face brightened up with a smile, and he pulled out an old magazine article detailing the M40's concept and Gunny Wiseman! He was the complete gentleman, and he was happy to share some insights with me and my step-son. Thankfully, Mr. Wiseman is still in business in Texas, working to keep his daughter in college...
wink.gif
 
#25
Re: Why the M40?

Just about every reason for building one has been listed. And like stated earlier to each his own. Unfortuneately, to those that scoff at the "clones" built, sooner or later there will not be anymore return stocks, base/ring designs may change, the 10x Unertl scopes are already hard to come by. Sooner or later original parts will dry up, and "reproduction" or parts as close as possible will have to be used. Texas Brigade Armory use to offer the ring/base mount for the Unertl scope. However I dont see that on their site anymore. After spending the last decade working with cars I have already seen it happen. Soon manufacturers will stop making "original" parts, and you will be forced to go with who ever is making them, and that only happens if there is a market. Also bare in mind that some manufacturers do not offer certain military-grade items to the public, and shy of aquiring them illegaly, it could be a while until you can just by them outright, hence the Unertl MST-100s unavailability for so long.

I think the clones that are built, although not 100% original parts, pay honor to the rifles they represent and the soldiers that carried them. In a few years even those clones will be worth something.
 
#26
Re: Why the M40?

There are guys who really like the M24 but the Rem700 is so common here that alot of people sort of already own one.
But the stock is not favored. I never cared for it all, the adjustable wheel doesn't lock down and can move.
I sure like mine; at 300m it could regularly shoot bottle caps.
My hat has always been off to Remington for that rifle.
 
#27
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Clone</span>
Main Entry: 1clone
Pronunciation: \&#712;kl&#333;n\
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek kl&#333;n twig, slip; akin to Greek klan to break — more at clast
Date: 1903

1 a : the aggregate of genetically identical cells or organisms asexually produced by a single progenitor cell or organism b : an individual grown from a single somatic cell or cell nucleus and genetically identical to it c : a group of replicas of all or part of a macromolecule and especially DNA <clones of identical recombinant DNA sequences>
<span style="color: #FF0000">2 : one that appears to be a copy of an original form : duplicate </span>
</div></div>

When you start substituting parts that don't even look like the original, then it is no longer a "clone". It's just another precision rifle. That's not a bad thing. However it just makes you silly when you show up with a heavy barrel 700 with a super sniper on a pic rail and call it an M40A1.

My M40A1 will have a USO MST-100 and USO mount on it. That's not original, but when I lay the krylon on it, you will be hard pressed to know the difference. If it looks like it, feels like it and shoots like it, then I think it's safe to call it a clone. If it doesn't, then don't.
 
#28
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete E</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to confess, I don't understand why people build M40 clones either.

I can understand wanting to have an original, (which I believe are not very available to civvies) but building a "clone" is a bit like a stamp collector photocopying a very rare stamp!

Somehow after building a nice accurate Rem 700 actioned rifle, sticking an "almost" period 3-9x40 Redfield on it seems a bit of a waste!



</div></div>

"I don't understand" pretty well sums it up.
 
#30
Re: Why the M40?

Would you happen to have any contact info for Gunny Wiseman? Would be great to have him assemble all the parts I've acquired!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longebow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The M40 was the USMC's successful attempt at giving its snipers a solid rifle that was accurate and tough as nails. I believe that its appeal is that it was a custom built (by RTE 2112s), built is relatively low numbers, with a scope (Unertl) that was originally not available commercially. All of this adds up to its desirability.

The M24 on the other hand, is a "production" gun, built by the Remington's Custom Shop, with components that are readily available. It was also about a decade later on the scene.

I ran into Bill Wiseman at the NRA convention in Charlotte last month, and when I asked him if he was the same gentlemen who was involved in the M40 design, his face brightened up with a smile, and he pulled out an old magazine article detailing the M40's concept and Gunny Wiseman! He was the complete gentleman, and he was happy to share some insights with me and my step-son. Thankfully, Mr. Wiseman is still in business in Texas, working to keep his daughter in college...
wink.gif
</div></div>
 
#33
Re: Why the M40?

As for historical rifles, I personally think the M1903A1 carried by the USMC was one of the finest "Looking" sniper rifles.

THe Winchester that Carlos Hathcock carried in Vietnam second place, M40 next, M40A1 next.

Then the M21, and now the M110.

The M24, nice, I've shot one once - seemed a lot like an off the shelf rifle, no real lines or "Beauty" in my own mind.



But most achievable is the M40A1, it's low profile and sleek lines with the high Monte Carlo is just "Sweet".
 
#34
Re: Why the M40?

So how does the M24 compare performance wise to say an M40A3? Is one or the other considered to be a generally more accrate weapon, or does the accuracy potential vary from rifle to rifle in both designs?
 
#35
Re: Why the M40?

I have to say that about 99 percent of people here would go for the M40A3. That is of course they still had use of their scopes. The M40 didn't have bac up sights. Plus fit and feel seem to work for more people.
Chad
 
#36
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild Bill C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would you happen to have any contact info for Gunny Wiseman? Would be great to have him assemble all the parts I've acquired!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longebow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The M40 was the USMC's successful attempt at giving its snipers a solid rifle that was accurate and tough as nails. I believe that its appeal is that it was a custom built (by RTE 2112s), built is relatively low numbers, with a scope (Unertl) that was originally not available commercially. All of this adds up to its desirability.

The M24 on the other hand, is a "production" gun, built by the Remington's Custom Shop, with components that are readily available. It was also about a decade later on the scene.

I ran into Bill Wiseman at the NRA convention in Charlotte last month, and when I asked him if he was the same gentlemen who was involved in the M40 design, his face brightened up with a smile, and he pulled out an old magazine article detailing the M40's concept and Gunny Wiseman! He was the complete gentleman, and he was happy to share some insights with me and my step-son. Thankfully, Mr. Wiseman is still in business in Texas, working to keep his daughter in college...
wink.gif
</div></div> </div></div>

Like Sinister said. PLUS his email address: [email protected]
 
#38
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">duct tape and iso mat are still used with the m40a5. i dont know of a single scout sniper who uses the adjustable cheek piece. the last thing i would want is the cheek piece slipping when im lining up a shot on someone. </div></div>

Its not because of the cheek well, the duct tape makes it look cool and the bullets go faster! Sheesh, did they not teach you anything in scout/sniper school.
On the other note, I was at the range afew days ago and they had a mall ninja there with an AR all covered in tape, man if I only had my phone, I would have posted this picture of this pozzer.
 
#39
Re: Why the M40?

Well, the reasons why people build M40 clones is probably as varied as the people who build them- myself included. Are there more modern, more capable rifles out there with far more advanced optics? Sure. So why am I building a copy of an over-40-year-old rifle? Well, partly for the same reasons I built a copy of a 68-year-old German K98k low turret rifle, and why I have a Mosin PU scoped rifle of similar vintage. For SOME of us, there is a certain interest in the historical aspects of when and where these rifles were used, and there is a desire to be able to enjoy shooting these rifles with all their limitations much as they were used in their day. There is an appeal for weapons made of wood and blued or parkerized steel that I just don't find in some of the modern thermoplastic wonder-weapons. Now, granted, having originals of them would be great, but then you have a dilemma as a collector of not wanting to risk damaging an original piece. But the "clone" rifle offers the best of both worlds. Depending on how detailed you are in your efforts to build it, it can be functionally very close to an original and yet one can still enjoy shooting it without as much concern over the risk to a historical item. Not to mention that, quite frankly, one can have a wall full of a variety of reasonably accurate clone builds to enjoy often for less than what the price of ONE original goes for (depending on the weapon) and for those on a budget, that too is a relevant feature.

But in the end, I am building my M40 replica because it appeals to me to do so. We really don't have to have any more justification than that to select our choice of weapons, do we? I would hate to get to the point of having anyone else telling ANY of us what we "need" to select in our lives, in what we shoot, what we eat, what we read, etc. FAR too much of that going on in our society today already, in my opinion. To each their own...
 
#40
Re: Why the M40?

The M40 was built by Remingtons Custom Shop and not by the MTU RTE's the M40A1 was a rifle solely developed and built by the those folks working at MTU, and I believe it is written in several publications that Gunny Hathcock prefered the M40 over the Winchester.
 
#41
Re: Why the M40?

I like the M40/M700 for vintage style shooting. Even use a vintage 3-9x40 Redfield accu-range/accu-track scope. Look, these guys were getting kills out to a thousand yards and beyond with a basically off the shelf Remington rifle and Redfield scope. If one can't hit a target with all this new overpriced crap on the market than that person has a real problem. The problem isn't people wanting an M40 clone. The problem is people that can't shoot what they have. M40 clone or not.
 
#42
Re: Why the M40?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The M40 was built by Remingtons Custom Shop and not by the MTU RTE's the M40A1 was a rifle solely developed and built by the those folks working at MTU, and I believe it is written in several publications that Gunny Hathcock prefered the M40 over the Winchester. </div></div>

Keep in mind that the M70 that he used was a 30-06 long action that was heavier than the M40 and it had more recoil. I can't imagine there are many shooters who would prefer that specific M70 over that M40.
 
#44
Re: Why the M40?

I'm one of the idiots who built a clone and never carried one. I am a vet (but not a real one). I'm sorry but a nuc submariner only suffers from alcoholism and not many bullet holes.

I shoot my match rifle 75% of the time which is more capable than my M40a1 any day, but I still love the rifle. It started the custom Remington Tac/Prac rifle which is like driving a Model T to me.

I wish I could quantify this further, but I can't.
 
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