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Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

ArmaHeavy

General of the Army
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 3, 2008
244
3
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To: English Wikipedia Readers and Community
From: Sue Gardner, Wikimedia Foundation Executive Director
Date: January 16, 2012

In other languages English • Català • Français • Polski
Today, the Wikipedia community announced its decision to black out the English-language Wikipedia for 24 hours, worldwide, beginning at 05:00 UTC on Wednesday, January 18 (you can read the statement from the Wikimedia Foundation here). The blackout is a protest against proposed legislation in the United States — the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) in the U.S. House of Representatives, and the PROTECT IP Act (PIPA) in the U.S. Senate — that, if passed, would seriously damage the free and open Internet, including Wikipedia.
This will be the first time the English Wikipedia has ever staged a public protest of this nature, and it’s a decision that wasn’t lightly made. Here’s how it’s been described by the three Wikipedia administrators who formally facilitated the community’s discussion. From the public statement, signed by User:NuclearWarfare, User:Risker and User:Billinghurst:
It is the opinion of the English Wikipedia community that both of these bills, if passed, would be devastating to the free and open web.
Over the course of the past 72 hours, over 1800 Wikipedians have joined together to discuss proposed actions that the community might wish to take against SOPA and PIPA. This is by far the largest level of participation in a community discussion ever seen on Wikipedia, which illustrates the level of concern that Wikipedians feel about this proposed legislation. The overwhelming majority of participants support community action to encourage greater public action in response to these two bills. Of the proposals considered by Wikipedians, those that would result in a “blackout” of the English Wikipedia, in concert with similar blackouts on other websites opposed to SOPA and PIPA, received the strongest support.
On careful review of this discussion, the closing administrators note the broad-based support for action from Wikipedians around the world, not just from within the United States. The primary objection to a global blackout came from those who preferred that the blackout be limited to readers from the United States, with the rest of the world seeing a simple banner notice instead. We also noted that roughly 55% of those supporting a blackout preferred that it be a global one, with many pointing to concerns about similar legislation in other nations.
In making this decision, Wikipedians will be criticized for seeming to abandon neutrality to take a political position. That’s a real, legitimate issue. We want people to trust Wikipedia, not worry that it is trying to propagandize them.
But although Wikipedia’s articles are neutral, its existence is not. As Wikimedia Foundation board member Kat Walsh wrote on one of our mailing lists recently,
We depend on a legal infrastructure that makes it possible for us to operate. And we depend on a legal infrastructure that also allows other sites to host user-contributed material, both information and expression. For the most part, Wikimedia projects are organizing and summarizing and collecting the world’s knowledge. We’re putting it in context, and showing people how to make to sense of it.
But that knowledge has to be published somewhere for anyone to find and use it. Where it can be censored without due process, it hurts the speaker, the public, and Wikimedia. Where you can only speak if you have sufficient resources to fight legal challenges, or if your views are pre-approved by someone who does, the same narrow set of ideas already popular will continue to be all anyone has meaningful access to.
The decision to shut down the English Wikipedia wasn’t made by me; it was made by editors, through a consensus decision-making process. But I support it.
Like Kat and the rest of the Wikimedia Foundation Board, I have increasingly begun to think of Wikipedia’s public voice, and the goodwill people have for Wikipedia, as a resource that wants to be used for the benefit of the public. Readers trust Wikipedia because they know that despite its faults, Wikipedia’s heart is in the right place. It’s not aiming to monetize their eyeballs or make them believe some particular thing, or sell them a product. Wikipedia has no hidden agenda: it just wants to be helpful.
That’s less true of other sites. Most are commercially motivated: their purpose is to make money. That doesn’t mean they don’t have a desire to make the world a better place — many do! — but it does mean that their positions and actions need to be understood in the context of conflicting interests.
My hope is that when Wikipedia shuts down on January 18, people will understand that we’re doing it for our readers. We support everyone’s right to freedom of thought and freedom of expression. We think everyone should have access to educational material on a wide range of subjects, even if they can’t pay for it. We believe in a free and open Internet where information can be shared without impediment. We believe that new proposed laws like SOPA and PIPA, and other similar laws under discussion inside and outside the United States — don’t advance the interests of the general public. You can read a very good list of reasons to oppose SOPA and PIPA here, from the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
Why is this a global action, rather than US-only? And why now, if some American legislators appear to be in tactical retreat on SOPA?
The reality is that we don’t think SOPA is going away, and PIPA is still quite active. Moreover, SOPA and PIPA are just indicators of a much broader problem. All around the world, we're seeing the development of legislation intended to fight online piracy, and regulate the Internet in other ways, that hurt online freedoms. Our concern extends beyond SOPA and PIPA: they are just part of the problem. We want the Internet to remain free and open, everywhere, for everyone.

On January 18, we hope you’ll agree with us, and will do what you can to make your own voice heard.
Sue Gardner,
Executive Director, Wikimedia Foundation</div></div>

WOW.
 
Re: Wikipedia protesting new bill, temp. shut down.

I dropped GoDaddy last week when I found out they supported the censorship bill as well.
 
Re: Wikipedia protesting new bill, temp. shut down.

Wow. Wow.

But it doesnt surprise me. For those who are informed, the knowledge of government censorship is a fact. They tighten their noose of control and JQPublic thinks they are doing them a favor. Im surprised that "the powers that be" have let it slide this long". It wont take them long to close down sites just like this one.

Good find, Arma.
 
Re: Wikipedia protesting new bill, temp. shut down.

They should have shut down facebook, just my opinion.
 
Re: Wikipedia protesting new bill, temp. shut down.

Go to Craigslist and there is a spot on the homepage about it. The spot is linked to all sorts of great info including what Senators are in support and against it.

This is a bad deal!!!!!

http://www.craigslist.org/about/SOPA
 
Re: Wikipedia protesting new bill, temp. shut down.

This has been a pretty hot topic as of late and for good reasons. If this bill passes (which I hope it doesn't) it's going to be probably the single greatest blow to the internet EVER! Video hosting sites such as YouTube and image hosting sites such as Photobucket are going to suffer the most due to the fact it will be next to impossible to enforce that new bill and will result in those sites being sued by those claiming copyright laws. I can't even imagine what file sharing sites like Pirate Bay will have to go through. And keep in mind this isn't just an issue of someone posting an entire full length movie, but this also affects those who just happen to have a movie running in the backround of their videos. Also too, those who have music playing in their vids. Pics will be just as bad too. You would have to make sure there's no billboards or any other forms of businesses in the backround of your pics.

I swear I have read a lot of proposed new bills, but this one definitely ranks amongst the top dumbest one.
frown.gif
 
Re: Wikipedia protesting new bill, temp. shut down.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Maser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This has been a pretty hot topic as of late and for good reasons. If this bill passes (which I hope it doesn't) it's going to be probably the single greatest blow to the internet EVER! Video hosting sites such as YouTube and image hosting sites such as Photobucket are going to suffer the most due to the fact it will be next to impossible to enforce that new bill and will result in those sites being sued by those claiming copyright laws. I can't even imagine what file sharing sites like Pirate Bay will have to go through. And keep in mind this isn't just an issue of someone posting an entire full length movie, but this also affects those who just happen to have a movie running in the backround of their videos. Also too, those who have music playing in their vids. Pics will be just as bad too. You would have to make sure there's no billboards or any other forms of businesses in the backround of your pics.

I swear I have read a lot of proposed new bills, but this one definitely ranks amongst the top dumbest one.
frown.gif
</div></div>


Its only dumb if you cherish freedom. For those who want to steal our liberties this makes perfect sense.
 
Re: Wikipedia protesting new bill, temp. shut down.

First the bricks went through the windows. Then the men made the decision to start the new frontier on the Fourth of July. When the fireworks started, no one was ready for the streets of Washington to be repainted red. The night's sky was rampent with teh sounds of Liberty as the people fired off the fireworks and the good men made the sounds of Liberty for the Free. It took too long for the bad men to recognize what was happening as the fireworks rained down upon their heads.
-Legion-
 
Re: Wikipedia protesting new bill, temp. shut down.

My starting post was taken from the Wikipedia site. Not too hard of a find, but I felt that it was important to broadcast it out there.

Also to give you an idea of what could possibly happen in addition to this, consider the following...

This current executive administration labeled all returning vets as extremist. This site is owned by a vet. Many members are vets, myself included, and all have sworn to uphold, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and even though we maybe out of the service, we still serve in some capacity(it's a hard habit to break), even with the presidential viewpoint that was given.

I can't begin to tell you the importance of keeping these Acts and legislation from passing, but eventually they might try and come after this website and many others like it. It's a certain possibility, even though I, myself, would not like to admit that my own government would want to do it, or even be a part of it.

If anyone reading this is involved with any other internet forums. M4carbine, Arfcom, facebook, twitter, myspace, then all might be, or could potentially be affected(it doesn't matter if you like it or not, if you're reading this, you've been threatened with the loss of your internet in it's current form), then pass along either the link to this topic, this message, or the link to the message itself located below. Also please send by cellphone, telephone, e-mail, fax, carrier pigeon, or string on a can, a message to your representative in the House of Congress, or the United States Senate concerning the proposed legislative Act above. The Acts are SOPA and PIPA located in the message body. Also take some time and watch the Youtube video below and then imagine the internet as the newspaper the Gentleman in the video is talking about, and imagine the loss of your ability to freely and openly exchange ideas, comments, opinions, and facts with other American citizens, as well as other people within the world community.

All it takes is one match against liberty, for the whole house of freedom to burn down.

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/English_Wikipedia_anti-SOPA_blackout

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LfQbQiAY1YA"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LfQbQiAY1YA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>



 
Re: Wikipedia protesting new bill, temp. shut down.

As of 0500 Eastern time, the English version of Wikipedia has been shut down. Google is also against this, represented by the black bar on their site as well.

Here is the new face for 24 hours...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

If you input your Zip code then a new page will pop up with a listing of both Representatives and Senators for your state and area. I advise everyone to use this to the utmost of their ability.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

Not sure what my position is on this is, but I'm sure Google protects their own search algorithm IP, not to mention their storing and using of your search parameters. It's a balancing act between plagiarism and free speech.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure what my position is on this is, but I'm sure Google protects their own search algorithm IP, not to mention their storing and using of your search parameters. It's a balancing act between plagiarism and free speech. </div></div>

With the administration's stance against vets, and this site being owned, and frequented by vets, including me, it shouldn't come off a surprise that this would be the first step in potentially shutting down Sniper's Hide.

It's a threat to the internet as a whole, and in the messages that I sent to both my Congressman and Senators I asked them this.

Since China only allowed Google to enter their country under government censorship, what will these Acts make us?
 
Re: Wikipedia protesting new bill, temp. shut down.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They should have shut down facebook, just my opinion. </div></div>

Facebook was/is pro-censorship bill.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure what my position is on this is, but I'm sure Google protects their own search algorithm IP, not to mention their storing and using of your search parameters. It's a balancing act between plagiarism and free speech. </div></div>

With the administration's stance against vets, and this site being owned, and frequented by vets, including me, it shouldn't come off a surprise that this would be the first step in potentially shutting down Sniper's Hide.

It's a threat to the internet as a whole, and in the messages that I sent to both my Congressman and Senators I asked them this.

Since China only allowed Google to enter their country under government censorship, what will these Acts make us?
</div></div>

I think the bill is well intended but worded too broadly. The relevent question for this community would be...

Would you support foreign websites pirating all of the Sniper's Hide Training videos, and posting them, and further support domestic websites that provide workaround links to access them?

My answer would be no.
 
Re: Wikipedia protesting new bill, temp. shut down.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They should have shut down facebook, just my opinion. </div></div>

yeah
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure what my position is on this is, but I'm sure Google protects their own search algorithm IP, not to mention their storing and using of your search parameters. It's a balancing act between plagiarism and free speech. </div></div>

With the administration's stance against vets, and this site being owned, and frequented by vets, including me, it shouldn't come off a surprise that this would be the first step in potentially shutting down Sniper's Hide.

It's a threat to the internet as a whole, and in the messages that I sent to both my Congressman and Senators I asked them this.

Since China only allowed Google to enter their country under government censorship, what will these Acts make us?
</div></div>

I think the bill is well intended but worded too broadly. The relevent question for this community would be...

Would you support foreign websites pirating all of the Sniper's Hide Training videos, and posting them, and further support domestic websites that provide workaround links to access them?

My answer would be no.

</div></div>

That's an oversimplification of what's occurring here on a legal level that benefits one side of the argument more than the other. The lack of context or thinking of this in such simple terms really does nothing for the argument.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

It simply boils down to the following: No tool of censorship has ever been used to support the rights and freedoms of individuals. They inherently are co-oped and used to repress and limit the rights of men.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure what my position is on this is, but I'm sure Google protects their own search algorithm IP, not to mention their storing and using of your search parameters. It's a balancing act between plagiarism and free speech. </div></div>

With the administration's stance against vets, and this site being owned, and frequented by vets, including me, it shouldn't come off a surprise that this would be the first step in potentially shutting down Sniper's Hide.

It's a threat to the internet as a whole, and in the messages that I sent to both my Congressman and Senators I asked them this.

Since China only allowed Google to enter their country under government censorship, what will these Acts make us?
</div></div>

I think the bill is well intended but worded too broadly. The relevent question for this community would be...

Would you support foreign websites pirating all of the Sniper's Hide Training videos, and posting them, and further support domestic websites that provide workaround links to access them?

My answer would be no.

</div></div>

That's an oversimplification of what's occurring here on a legal level that benefits one side of the argument more than the other. The lack of context or thinking of this in such simple terms really does nothing for the argument.

</div></div>
Neither does broad generalizations. The point is there's more to it then all this alarmist fear, and priracy problems are real. We just haven't found the best legal solution yet. But doing nothing, is not the answer.
 
Re: Wikipedia protesting new bill, temp. shut down.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They should have shut down facebook, just my opinion. </div></div>

Facebook was/is pro-censorship bill. </div></div>


Looks like I had heard wrong:

http://consumerist.com/2012/01/mark-zuckerberg-we-need-political-leaders-who-are-pro-internet.html

"The internet is the most powerful tool we have for creating a more open and connected world. We can't let poorly thought out laws get in the way of the internet's development. Facebook opposes SOPA and PIPA, and we will continue to oppose any laws that will hurt the internet.

The world today needs political leaders who are pro-internet. We have been working with many of these folks for months on better alternatives to these current proposals. I encourage you to learn more about these issues and tell your congressmen that you want them to be pro-internet."
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Neither does broad generalizations. The point is there's more to it then all this alarmist fear, and priracy problems are real. We just haven't found the best legal solution yet. But doing nothing, is not the answer.
</div></div>

There are already copyright laws currently in place that could be enforced and still give the desired effect. Two Acts, concerning online piracy, going through Congress is overkill(and I suspect that it's got a nice layer of pork).

Youtube pulls videos all the time just for copyright infringement, so I don't see how having the government police the internet is a good thing, when websites are already policing themselves.

Also to call it 'alarmist fear' is in opposite to the fact that already major websites, and a good portion of the internet are strongly opposed to it, as well as the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee taking it off the floor, see below. Keep in mind that the PIPA Act in the Senate is still active as far as I can tell.

From http://oversight.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1558&Itemid=29

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Issa: Flawed SOPA Bill Not Headed to House Floor
OGR hearing planned for Wednesday postponed following assurances, removal of DNS provisions

Washington, DC – House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa today announced that ahearing scheduled for Wednesday, which was to examine the impact of Domain Name Service (DNS) and search engine blocking on the Internet, has been postponed following assurances that anti-piracy legislation will not move to the House floor this Congress without a consensus.

"While I remain concerned about Senate action on the Protect IP Act, I am confident that flawed legislation will not be taken up by this House. Majority Leader Cantor has assured me that we will continue to work to address outstanding concerns and work to build consensus prior to any anti-piracy legislation coming before the House for a vote,” said Chairman Issa. “The voice of the Internet community has been heard. Much more education for Members of Congress about the workings of the Internet is essential if anti-piracy legislation is to be workable and achieve broad appeal.”

"Earlier tonight, Chairman Smith announced that he will remove the DNS blocking provision from his legislation. Although SOPA, despite the removal of this provision, is still a fundamentally flawed bill, I have decided that postponing the scheduled hearing on DNS blocking with technical experts is the best course of action at this time. Right now, the focus of protecting the Internet needs to be on the Senate where Majority Leader Reid has announced his intention to try to move similar legislation in less than two weeks."

Chairman Issa intends to continue to push for Congress to heed the advice of Internet experts on anti-piracy legislation and to push for the consideration and passage of the bipartisan OPEN Act, which provides an alternative means for protecting intellectual property rights without undermining the structure and entrepreneurialism of the Internet. Learn more about Rep. Issa and Sen. Ron Wyden’s alternative the OPEN Act at www.keepthewebopen.com</div></div>
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

With the administration's stance against vets, and this site being owned, and frequented by vets, including me, it shouldn't come off a surprise that this would be the first step in potentially shutting down Sniper's Hide.

It's a threat to the internet as a whole, and in the messages that I sent to both my Congressman and Senators I asked them this.

Since China only allowed Google to enter their country under government censorship, what will these Acts make us?
</div></div>

I think the bill is well intended but worded too broadly. The relevent question for this community would be...

Would you support foreign websites pirating all of the Sniper's Hide Training videos, and posting them, and further support domestic websites that provide workaround links to access them?

My answer would be no.

</div></div>

That's an oversimplification of what's occurring here on a legal level that benefits one side of the argument more than the other. The lack of context or thinking of this in such simple terms really does nothing for the argument.

</div></div>
Neither does broad generalizations. The point is there's more to it then all this alarmist fear, and priracy problems are real. We just haven't found the best legal solution yet. But doing nothing, is not the answer.

</div></div>

Your example is horribly inaccurate. The way these bills are written would be more along the lines of Frank putting up a training video, and in the training video his phone rings and he is using a popular song as his ringtone, and the recording company has snipershide shut down because he was hosting part of "their" song without their approval.

We already HAVE copyright laws that cover your example, we don't need more, especially not ones which were written to help no one but the RIAA/MPAA make more money by being able to censor the internet without due process.

"But doing nothing, is not the answer." This is one of the scariest things I have read from anyone here. When you can't figure out the proper way to do something, doing nothing is the only answer, enacting a bunch of feel good "well we're trying" laws to attempt to half solve something and damn the civil liberties casualties along the way is un-American, and un-Patriotic.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wolvenhaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your example is horribly inaccurate. The way these bills are written would be more along the lines of Frank putting up a training video, and in the training video his phone rings and he is using a popular song as his ringtone, and the recording company has snipershide shut down because he was hosting part of "their" song without their approval.</div></div>

I'm not arguing the way they're written. I think they're written horribly and I'd never support them. Merely pointing out that piracy is a problem and the example is exactly what the INTENT of the bill is or should be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wolvenhaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We already HAVE copyright laws that cover your example, we don't need more, especially not ones which were written to help no one but the RIAA/MPAA make more money by being able to censor the internet without due process.</div></div>
Really? Copyright laws that cover foreign entities and those who try to circumvent them through the internet? It was my understanding that that is where the priracy loopholes are. Is due process being side stepped in these bills? I thought they stated alot of it. Either way, I'll say it again, I don't support them as currently written.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wolvenhaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"But doing nothing, is not the answer." This is one of the scariest things I have read from anyone here. When you can't figure out the proper way to do something, doing nothing is the only answer, enacting a bunch of feel good "well we're trying" laws to attempt to half solve something and damn the civil liberties casualties along the way is un-American, and un-Patriotic. </div></div>

If you support doing nothing, then you support foreign websites taking content from this website and others and reposting it. You also support other websites that circumvent domestic controls and copyrights.

I don't know what the right solution is, and this bill isn't it, but I do respect those who want/need to protect their IP. This isn't about wanting to make sure we can still get free music, videos, and porn.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There are already copyright laws currently in place that could be enforced and still give the desired effect. Two Acts, concerning online piracy, going through Congress is overkill(and I suspect that it's got a nice layer of pork).</div></div>
I don't believe international copyright laws solve the problem. Pork and other possible gotchas.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Youtube pulls videos all the time just for copyright infringement, so I don't see how having the government police the internet is a good thing, when websites are already policing themselves.</div></div>
I agree and I don't know what the solution is. Current copyright laws are not strong enough internationally to protect domestic IP, as I understand it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also to call it 'alarmist fear' is in opposite to the fact that already major websites, and a good portion of the internet are strongly opposed to it, as well as the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee taking it off the floor, see below. Keep in mind that the PIPA Act in the Senate is still active as far as I can tell.</div></div>
To call what alarmist fear? I'm just refering to those that keep shouting "censorship" this and that, WITHOUT really understanding at least the intent of the bills. Many just want to make sure they can still get their free stuff and will do anything to keep it. But that's just my opinion, formed because when I grew up, I actually had to pay for the music I listened to.

Couldn't we also ask, "Why would any congress person support censorship on the internet?" They'd be committing political suicide. They're smart enough to draft these bills but not smart enough to know that? That's all they live for.

Maybe that's what will ultimately cause the bills to fail to pass.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Really? Copyright laws that cover foreign entities and those who try to circumvent them through the internet? It was my understanding that that is where the priracy loopholes are. Is due process being side stepped in these bills? I thought they stated alot of it. Either way, I'll say it again, I don't support them as currently written.
</div></div>

American laws do not have jurisdiction in other countries overseas. The Acts stated that it would inhibit the American connection to these online foreign sites, but it is extremely broad in it's wording, and if the Justice Department is already handling cases like this for many years, then what is the need to create and approve new legislation on it?

It was stated that one of the reasons for these acts was to prevent and ultimately eliminate piratical online multimedia, but what has not been mentioned is that many times before these pieces of legislation were issued, all the Justice Department had to do was call the Justice Ministry, Department, or Administration, of the overseas country in question and tell them the situation. Many times action WAS taken against the criminals, as it's also in that country's economic interest to do so. And there are international laws in place too. Remember the Interpol warnings that come after the FBI warning when you watch a movie? It's all about enforcement of the current laws in place.

Also Region coding, as far as movies, are EXCELLENT at preventing piracy. I remember being overseas and many times I was unable to play a European DVD in an American DVD player, and vice-versa.

Oddly though, we create biased laws when, instead, something as simple as a couple extra lines of code included by all these affected companies, would have a better effect, and it's strange how nobody seems to want to put pressure on the companies who make the machines that are able to do this, or the companies that create the coding and programming that allow it, but when it comes down to laws that inhibit the liberties of the American people, then they're for it.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To call what alarmist fear? I'm just refering to those that keep shouting "censorship" this and that, WITHOUT really understanding at least the intent of the bills. Many just want to make sure they can still get their free stuff and will do anything to keep it. But that's just my opinion, formed because when I grew up, I actually had to pay for the music I listened to.
</div></div>
It's was possibly the start of the censorship of the internet. Regardless of what the Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee thinks of Google's protest against it, nobody has commented on why Twitter would be against it. Seriously, the Acts are to stop online piracy and <span style="text-decoration: underline">Twitter</span> is against it, as well as a list of others.

I pay for my music too.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Couldn't we also ask, "Why would any congress person support censorship on the internet?" They'd be committing political suicide. They're smart enough to draft these bills but not smart enough to know that? That's all they live for.

Maybe that's what will ultimately cause the bills to fail to pass.
</div></div>

Some Co-Sponsors of the SOPA Act in the House, have since withdrawn their support of it.

Here is a list of the Sponsor and the Co-Sponsors of the PIPA Act in the Senate. There are some familiar names in there as well. Take not that Senator Jerry Moran of Kansas withdrew his support FOUR days after he signed to Co-Sponsor it.

S.968
Latest Title: Preventing Real Online Threats to Economic Creativity and Theft of Intellectual Property Act of 2011
Sponsor: Sen Leahy, Patrick J. [VT] (introduced 5/12/2011) Cosponsors (40)
Related Bills: H.R.3261
Latest Major Action: 12/17/2011 Senate floor actions. Status: Cloture motion on the motion to proceed to the bill presented in Senate.
Senate Reports: 112-39
COSPONSORS(40), ALPHABETICAL [followed by Cosponsors withdrawn]: (Sort: by date)
Sen Alexander, Lamar [TN] - 5/25/2011
Sen Ayotte, Kelly [NH] - 6/27/2011
Sen Bennet, Michael F. [CO] - 7/25/2011
Sen Bingaman, Jeff [NM] - 10/19/2011
Sen Blumenthal, Richard [CT] - 5/12/2011
Sen Blunt, Roy [MO] - 5/23/2011
Sen Boozman, John [AR] - 6/15/2011
Sen Boxer, Barbara [CA] - 12/12/2011
Sen Brown, Sherrod [OH] - 10/20/2011
Sen Cardin, Benjamin L. [MD] - 7/13/2011
Sen Casey, Robert P., Jr. [PA] - 9/7/2011
Sen Chambliss, Saxby [GA] - 11/2/2011
Sen Cochran, Thad [MS] - 6/23/2011
Sen Coons, Christopher A. [DE] - 5/12/2011
Sen Corker, Bob [TN] - 6/9/2011
Sen Durbin, Richard [IL] - 6/30/2011
Sen Enzi, Michael B. [WY] - 9/7/2011
Sen Feinstein, Dianne [CA] - 5/12/2011
Sen Franken, Al [MN] - 5/12/2011
Sen Gillibrand, Kirsten E. [NY] - 5/26/2011
Sen Graham, Lindsey [SC] - 5/12/2011
Sen Grassley, Chuck [IA] - 5/12/2011
Sen Hagan, Kay [NC] - 7/5/2011
Sen Hatch, Orrin G. [UT] - 5/12/2011
Sen Isakson, Johnny [GA] - 11/2/2011
Sen Johnson, Tim [SD] - 10/3/2011
Sen Klobuchar, Amy [MN] - 5/12/2011
Sen Kohl, Herb [WI] - 5/12/2011
Sen Landrieu, Mary L. [LA] - 10/17/2011
Sen Lieberman, Joseph I. [CT] - 7/7/2011
Sen McCain, John [AZ] - 7/26/2011
Sen Menendez, Robert [NJ] - 10/31/2011
Sen Nelson, Bill [FL] - 9/23/2011
Sen Risch, James E. [ID] - 11/7/2011
Sen Rubio, Marco [FL] - 5/26/2011
Sen Schumer, Charles E. [NY] - 5/12/2011
Sen Shaheen, Jeanne [NH] - 6/30/2011
Sen Udall, Tom [NM] - 7/7/2011
Sen Vitter, David [LA] - 11/7/2011
Sen Whitehouse, Sheldon [RI] - 5/12/2011
Sen Moran, Jerry [KS] - 6/23/2011(withdrawn - 6/27/2011)
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

Here is a listing of the House Sponsor and Co-Sponsors for the SOPA Act.

H.R.3261
Latest Title: Stop Online Piracy Act
Sponsor: Rep Smith, Lamar [TX-21] (introduced 10/26/2011) Cosponsors (30)
Related Bills: S.968, S.1228
Latest Major Action: 12/16/2011 House committee/subcommittee actions. Status: Committee Consideration and Mark-up Session Held.
COSPONSORS(30), ALPHABETICAL [followed by Cosponsors withdrawn]: (Sort: by date)
Rep Amodei, Mark E. [NV-2] - 11/3/2011
Rep Baca, Joe [CA-43] - 12/7/2011
Rep Barrow, John [GA-12] - 11/14/2011
Rep Bass, Karen [CA-33] - 11/3/2011
Rep Berman, Howard L. [CA-28] - 10/26/2011
Rep Blackburn, Marsha [TN-7] - 10/26/2011
Rep Bono Mack, Mary [CA-45] - 10/26/2011
Rep Carter, John R. [TX-31] - 11/3/2011
Rep Chabot, Steve [OH-1] - 10/26/2011
Rep Chu, Judy [CA-32] - 11/30/2011
Rep Conyers, John, Jr. [MI-14] - 10/26/2011
Rep Cooper, Jim [TN-5] - 12/12/2011
Rep Deutch, Theodore E. [FL-19] - 10/26/2011
Rep Gallegly, Elton [CA-24] - 10/26/2011
Rep Goodlatte, Bob [VA-6] - 10/26/2011
Rep Griffin, Tim [AR-2] - 10/26/2011
Rep Holden, Tim [PA-17] - 11/30/2011
Rep King, Peter T. [NY-3] - 11/3/2011
Rep Larson, John B. [CT-1] - 11/30/2011
Rep Lujan, Ben Ray [NM-3] - 11/14/2011
Rep Marino, Tom [PA-10] - 11/3/2011
Rep Nunnelee, Alan [MS-1] - 11/3/2011
Rep Owens, William L. [NY-23] - 11/14/2011
Rep Ross, Dennis [FL-12] - 10/26/2011
Rep Scalise, Steve [LA-1] - 11/14/2011
Rep Schiff, Adam B. [CA-29] - 10/26/2011
Rep Sherman, Brad [CA-27] - 12/7/2011
Rep Terry, Lee [NE-2] - 10/26/2011
Rep Wasserman Schultz, Debbie [FL-20] - 11/3/2011
Rep Watt, Melvin L. [NC-12] - 11/3/2011
Rep Quayle, Benjamin [AZ-3] - 12/13/2011(withdrawn - 1/17/2012)
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure what my position is on this is, but I'm sure Google protects their own search algorithm IP, not to mention their storing and using of your search parameters. It's a balancing act between plagiarism and free speech. </div></div>

I struggled with where to side on this matter too, but the more I think about it, the more I'm opposed.

Let's face it; plagiarism is big business (look at China). And, if you can't evolve your business model without depending on the government to protect your intellectual property, then you should join Blockbutster in the corporate graveyard.

This is not to say that IP protection doesn’t have its place (e.g. pharma, technology, etc.). However, IP with respect to traditional media (e.g. books, music, film, tv/radio broadcast, etc.) is a dying business, and this should have been readily apparent a decade ago when Napster was all the rage.

The media industry has been around for hundreds of years creating a lot of rich folks along the way. To think the industry won't figure out how to extract value from other non-traditional IP mediums is another testament to the ignorance of the government we have placed in the wheelhouse and their willingness to turn over every rock to increase the scope of its power.

A great example that comes to mind (because I wrote a paper on it back in B school) is a comparison of the two bands Metallica and Dave Matthews. In 2002, when Napster took a shit on the intelectual property rights of the music industry, instead of boohooing and asking the government to fix the problem (as did Metallica), Dave Matthews Band welcomed the change and actually encouraged people to tape their concerts and use services like Napster to share its recordings. In short, Dave Matthews more or less gave their recorded music away in order to promote their real “bread and butter”—live concerts.

In summary, Dave Matthews’ ability to adapt to the changes of their industry helped propel them to the highest grossing artists of the decade (2000-2009) at around $530Million. While all of Metallica’s foot-stomping only got them a meager $225Million.

EVOLVE OR DIE!!!!! It's been an effective policy for thousands(possibly millions) of years so write your congressman and tell him/her to stop fu@#ing with it.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">American laws do not have jurisdiction in other countries overseas. The Acts stated that it would inhibit the American connection to these online foreign sites, but it is extremely broad in it's wording, and if the Justice Department is already handling cases like this for many years, then what is the need to create and approve new legislation on it?

It was stated that one of the reasons for these acts was to prevent and ultimately eliminate piratical online multimedia, but what has not been mentioned is that many times before these pieces of legislation were issued, all the Justice Department had to do was call the Justice Ministry, Department, or Administration, of the overseas country in question and tell them the situation. Many times action WAS taken against the criminals, as it's also in that country's economic interest to do so. And there are international laws in place too. Remember the Interpol warnings that come after the FBI warning when you watch a movie? It's all about enforcement of the current laws in place.
</div></div>

For countries where we have strong established trade connections, the EU, NATO countires, ect., cooporation and enforcement are realistic. But these are not the countries that are mostly supporting internet priracy. It's the clowns in .ru , .cn, Joebekastan, ..., that are the problem, and they don't give a hoot about copyright laws.

Internet piracy, and counterfeit goods for that matter, send capital, profits, and innovation, out of the country, and kill US jobs.

I'm not suggesting we trade jobs for freedom. Just trying to get us to acknowledge that there's a problem and hopefully approach solutions from all sides. Again, to do nothing and not at least try to arrive at solutions, is part of the problem.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also Region coding, as far as movies, are EXCELLENT at preventing piracy. I remember being overseas and many times I was unable to play a European DVD in an American DVD player, and vice-versa.
</div></div>
Sure, and SW licensing too. But the difference with movies is in the method of distribution. Taking advantage of the different DVD formats is one thing, but the internet is way different. It's packet data with some from/to header(sort of). The internet equivalent of what you're suggesting is exactly part of what is being proposed in these bills.

Again, I don't support the current bills as written. Just discussing solutions.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rawdeal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure what my position is on this is, but I'm sure Google protects their own search algorithm IP, not to mention their storing and using of your search parameters. It's a balancing act between plagiarism and free speech. </div></div>

I struggled with where to side on this matter too, but the more I think about it, the more I'm opposed.

Let's face it; plagiarism is big business (look at China). And, if you can't evolve your business model without depending on the government to protect your intellectual property, then you should join Blockbutster in the corporate graveyard.

This is not to say that IP protection doesn’t have its place (e.g. pharma, technology, etc.). However, IP with respect to traditional media (e.g. books, music, film, tv/radio broadcast, etc.) is a dying business, and this should have been readily apparent a decade ago when Napster was all the rage.

The media industry has been around for hundreds of years creating a lot of rich folks along the way. To think the industry won't figure out how to extract value from other non-traditional IP mediums is another testament to the ignorance of the government we have placed in the wheelhouse and their willingness to turn over every rock to increase the scope of its power.

A great example that comes to mind (because I wrote a paper on it back in B school) is a comparison of the two bands Metallica and Dave Matthews. In 2002, when Napster took a shit on the intelectual property rights of the music industry, instead of boohooing and asking the government to fix the problem (as did Metallica), Dave Matthews Band welcomed the change and actually encouraged people to tape their concerts and use services like Napster to share its recordings. In short, Dave Matthews more or less gave their recorded music away in order to promote their real “bread and butter”—live concerts.

In summary, Dave Matthews’ ability to adapt to the changes of their industry helped propel them to the highest grossing artists of the decade (2000-2009) at around $530Million. While all of Metallica’s foot-stomping only got them a meager $225Million.

EVOLVE OR DIE!!!!! It's been an effective policy for thousands(possibly millions) of years so write your congressman and tell him/her to stop fu@#ing with it.
</div></div>

Music certainly has the live performance side which can offset the other losses. What options do book authors have to evolve? Book readings?
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Music certainly has the live performance side which can offset the other losses. What options do book authors have to evolve? Book readings?
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Baen Books is now making available — for free — a number of its titles in electronic format. We're calling it the Baen Free Library. Anyone who wishes can read these titles online — no conditions, no strings attached. (Later we may ask for an extremely simple, name & email only, registration. ) Or, if you prefer, you can download the books in one of several formats. Again, with no conditions or strings attached. (URLs to sites which offer the readers for these format are also listed. )

Why are we doing this? Well, for two reasons.

The first is what you might call a "matter of principle." This all started as a byproduct of an online "virtual brawl" I got into with a number of people, some of them professional SF authors, over the issue of online piracy of copyrighted works and what to do about it.

There was a school of thought, which seemed to be picking up steam, that the way to handle the problem was with handcuffs and brass knucks. Enforcement! Regulation! New regulations! Tighter regulations! All out for the campaign against piracy! No quarter! Build more prisons! Harsher sentences!

Alles in ordnung!

I, ah, disagreed. Rather vociferously and belligerently, in fact. And I can be a vociferous and belligerent fellow. My own opinion, summarized briefly, is as follows:

1. Online piracy — while it is definitely illegal and immoral — is, as a practical problem, nothing more than (at most) a nuisance. We're talking brats stealing chewing gum, here, not the Barbary Pirates.

2. Losses any author suffers from piracy are almost certainly offset by the additional publicity which, in practice, any kind of free copies of a book usually engender. Whatever the moral difference, which certainly exists, the practical effect of online piracy is no different from that of any existing method by which readers may obtain books for free or at reduced cost: public libraries, friends borrowing and loaning each other books, used book stores, promotional copies, etc.

3. Any cure which relies on tighter regulation of the market — especially the kind of extreme measures being advocated by some people — is far worse than the disease. As a widespread phenomenon rather than a nuisance, piracy occurs when artificial restrictions in the market jack up prices beyond what people think are reasonable. The "regulation-enforcement-more regulation" strategy is a bottomless pit which continually recreates (on a larger scale) the problem it supposedly solves. And that commercial effect is often compounded by the more general damage done to social and political freedom.

In the course of this debate, I mentioned it to my publisher Jim Baen. He more or less virtually snorted and expressed the opinion that if one of his authors — how about you, Eric? — were willing to put up a book for free online that the resulting publicity would more than offset any losses the author might suffer.

The minute he made the proposal, I realized he was right. After all, Dave Weber's On Basilisk Station has been available for free as a "loss leader" for Baen's for-pay experiment "Webscriptions" for months now. And — hey, whaddaya know? — over that time it's become Baen's most popular backlist title in paper!

And so I volunteered my first novel, Mother of Demons, to prove the case. And the next day Mother of Demons went up online, offered to the public for free.

Sure enough, within a day, I received at least half a dozen messages (some posted in public forums, others by private email) from people who told me that, based on hearing about the episode and checking out Mother of Demons, they either had or intended to buy the book. In one or two cases, this was a "gesture of solidarity. "But in most instances, it was because people preferred to read something they liked in a print version and weren't worried about the small cost — once they saw, through sampling it online, that it was a novel they enjoyed. (Mother of Demons is a $5.99 paperback, available in most bookstores. Yes, that a plug. )

Then, after thinking the whole issue through a bit more, I realized that by posting Mother of Demons I was just making a gesture. Gestures are fine, but policies are better.

So, the next day, I discussed the matter with Jim again and it turned out he felt exactly the same way. So I proposed turning the Mother of Demons tour-de-force into an ongoing project. Immediately, David Drake was brought into the discussion and the three of us refined the idea and modified it here and there. And then Dave Weber heard about it, and Dave Freer, and. . . voila.

The Baen Free Library was born.

This will be a place where any author can, at their own personal discretion, put up online for free any book published by Baen that they so desire. There is absolutely no "pressure" involved. The choice is entirely up to the authors, and that is true on all levels:

— participate, or not, as they choose;

— put up whatever book they choose;

— for as long as they choose.

The only "restrictions" we'll be placing is simply that we will encourage authors to put up the first novel or novels in an ongoing popular series, where possible. And we will ask authors who are interested not to volunteer more than, at most, five or six novels or collections at any one time.

The reason for the first provision is obvious — to generate more public interest in an ongoing series. I'll have more to say about that in a moment. The reason for the second provision is that one of the things we hope the Baen Free Library will do is make it easier for a broader audience to become familiar with less well known authors. Burying the one or two novels which a new or midlist author might have under a mountain of Big Name backlist titles would work against that. And there's no reason to do so, anyway, because anyone can get a pretty good idea of whether they like a given author after reading a few of his or her books.

Jim has asked me to co-ordinate the project and I have agreed. After a humorous exchange on my appropriate title — I tried to hold out for. . . never mind — we settled on "Eric Flint, First Librarian. "That will allow me to give the periodic "newsletter and remarks" which I will toss into the hopper the splendid title of "Prime Palaver," a pun which is just too good to pass up. (I'd apologize to the ghost of Isaac Asimov, except I think he'd get a chuckle out of it. )

Earlier, I mentioned "two reasons" we were doing this, and stated that the first was what you might call a demonstration of principle. What's the second?

Common sense, applied to the practical reality of commercial publishing. Or, if you prefer, the care and feeding of authors and publishers. Or, if you insist on a single word, profit.

I will make no bones about it (and Jim, were he writing this, would be gleefully sucking out the marrow). We expect this Baen Free Library to make us money by selling books.

How? As I said above, for the same reason that any kind of book distribution which provides free copies to people has always, throughout the history of publishing, eventually rebounded to the benefit of the author.

Take, for instance, the phenomenon of people lending books to their friends — a phenomenon which absolutely dwarfs, by several orders of magnitude, online piracy of copyrighted books.

What's happened here? Has the author "lost a sale?"

Well. . . yeah, in the short run — assuming, of course, that said person would have bought the book if he couldn't borrow it. Sure. Instead of buying a copy of the author's book, the Wretched Scoundrel Borrower (with the Lender as his Accomplice) has "cheated" the author. Read his work for free! Without paying for it!

The same thing happens when someone checks a book out of a public library — a "transaction" which, again, dwarfs by several orders of magnitude all forms of online piracy. The author only collects royalties once, when the library purchases a copy. Thereafter. . .

Robbed again! And again, and again!

Yet. . . yet. . .

I don't know any author, other than a few who are — to speak bluntly — cretins, who hears about people lending his or her books to their friends, or checking them out of a library, with anything other than pleasure. Because they understand full well that, in the long run, what maintains and (especially) expands a writer's audience base is that mysterious magic we call: word of mouth.

Word of mouth, unlike paid advertising, comes free to the author — and it's ten times more effective than any kind of paid advertising, because it's the one form of promotion which people usually trust.

That being so, an author can hardly complain — since the author paid nothing for it either. And it is that word of mouth, percolating through the reading public down a million little channels, which is what really puts the food on an author's table. Don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise.

Think about it. How many people lend a book to a friend with the words: "You ought a read this! It's really terrible!"

How many people who read a book they like which they obtained from a public library never mention it to anyone? As a rule, in my experience, people who frequently borrow books from libraries are bibliophiles. And bibliophiles, in my experience, usually can't refrain from talking about books they like.

And, just as important — perhaps most important of all — free books are the way an audience is built in the first place. How many people who are low on cash and for that reason depend on libraries or personal loans later rise on the economic ladder and then buy books by the very authors they came to love when they were borrowing books?

Practically every reader, that's who. Most readers of science fiction and fantasy develop that interest as teenagers, mainly from libraries. That was certainly true of me. As a teenager, I couldn't afford to buy the dozen or so Robert Heinlein novels I read in libraries. Nor could I afford the six-volume Lensmen series by "Doc" Smith. Nor could I afford any of the authors I became familiar with in those days: Arthur Clarke, James H. Schmitz, you name it.

Did they "lose sales?" In the long run, not hardly. Because in the decades which followed, I bought all of their books — and usually, in fact, bought them over and over again to replace old copies which had gotten too worn and frayed. I just bought another copy of Robert Heinlein's The Puppet Masters, in fact, because the one I had was getting too long in the tooth. I think that's the third copy of that novel I've purchased, over the course of my life. I'm not sure. Might be the fourth. I first read that book when I was fourteen years old — forty years ago, now — checked out from my high school library.

In short, rather than worrying about online piracy — much less tying ourselves and society into knots trying to shackle everything — it just makes more sense, from a commercial as well as principled point of view — to "steal from the stealers. "

Don't bother robbing me, twit. I will cheerfully put up the stuff for free myself. Because I am quite confident that any "losses" I sustain will be more than made up for by the expansion in the size of my audience.

For me to worry about piracy would be like a singer in a piano bar worrying that someone might be taping the performance in order to produce a pirate recording. Just like they did to Maria Callas!

Sheesh. Best thing that could happen to me. . .

That assumes, of course, that the writer in question is producing good books. "Good," at least, in the opinion of enough readers. That is not always true, of course. But, frankly, a mediocre writer really doesn't have to worry about piracy anyway.

What about the future? people ask. Even if reading off a screen is not today as competitive as reading paper, what about the future when it will be? By which time advances in technology might make piracy so easy and ubiquitous that the income of authors really gets jeopardized?

My answer is:

Who knows?

I'm not worried about it, however, basically for two reasons.

The first is a simple truth which Jim Baen is fond of pointing out: most people would rather be honest than dishonest.

He's absolutely right about that. One of the things about the online debate over e-piracy that particularly galled me was the blithe assumption by some of my opponents that the human race is a pack of slavering would-be thieves held (barely) in check by the fear of prison sentences.

Oh, hogwash.

Sure, sure — if presented with a real "Devil's bargain," most people will at least be tempted. Eternal life. . . a million dollars found lying in the woods. . .

Heh. Many fine stories have been written on the subject!But how many people, in the real world, are going to be tempted to steal a few bucks?

Some, yes — precious few of whom, I suspect, read much of anything. But the truth is that most people are no more tempted to steal a few dollars than they are to spend their lunch hour panhandling for money on the streets. Partly because they don't need to, but mostly because it's beneath their dignity and self-respect.

The only time that mass scale petty thievery becomes a problem is when the perception spreads, among broad layers of the population, that a given product is priced artificially high due to monopolistic practices and/or draconian legislation designed to protect those practices. But so long as the "gap" between the price of a legal product and a stolen one remains both small and, in the eyes of most people, a legitimate cost rather than gouging, 99% of them will prefer the legal product.

Jim Baen is quite confident that, as technology changes the way books are produced and sold, he can figure out ways to keep that "gap" reasonable — and thus make money for himself and his authors in the process, by using the new technology rather than screaming about it. Certainly Baen's Webscriptions, where you can buy a month's offerings "bundled" at a price per title of around two bucks has demonstrated his sincerity in this.

(But he's just a publisher, of course, so what does he know?On the other hand. . . I'm generally inclined to have confidence in someone who is prepared to put his money where his mouth is. Instead of demanding that the taxpayers' money be put into building more prisons. )

The reason I'm not worried about the future is because of another simple truth. One which is even simpler, in fact — and yet seems to get constantly overlooked in the ruckus over online piracy and what (if anything) to do about it. To wit:

Nobody has yet come up with any technology — nor is it on the horizon — which could possibly replace authors as the producers of fiction. Nor has anyone suggested that there is any likelihood of the market for that product drying up.

The only issue, therefore, is simply the means by which authors get paid for their work.

That's a different kettle of fish entirely from a "threat" to the livelihood of authors. Some writers out there, imitating Chicken Little, seem to think they are on the verge of suffering the fate of buggy whip makers. But that analogy is ridiculous. Buggy whip makers went out of business because someone else invented something which eliminated the demand for buggy whips — not because Henry Ford figured out a way to steal the payroll of the buggy whip factory.

Is anyone eliminating the demand for fiction?Nope.

Has anyone invented a gadget which can write fiction?Nope.

All that is happening, as the technological conditions under which commercial fiction writing takes place continue to change, is that everyone is wrestling with the impact that might have on the way in which writers get paid. That's it. So why all the panic? Especially, why the hysterical calls for draconian regulation of new technology — which, leaving aside the damage to society itself, is far more likely to hurt writers than to help them?

The future can't be foretold. But, whatever happens, so long as writers are essential to the process of producing fiction — along with editors, publishers, proofreaders (if you think a computer can proofread, you're nuts) and all the other people whose work is needed for it — they will get paid. Because they have, as a class if not as individuals, a monopoly on the product. Far easier to figure out new ways of generating income — as we hope to do with the Baen Free Library — than to tie ourselves and society as a whole into knots. Which are likely to be Gordian Knots, to boot.

Okay. I will climb down from the soapbox. Herewith, the Baen Free Library. Enjoy yourselves!

Eric Flint
First Librarian
October 11, 2000
</div></div>

http://baen.com/library/intro.asp

Works pretty damn well for them, they're an extremely successful publishing company.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wolvenhaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://baen.com/library/intro.asp

Works pretty damn well for them, they're an extremely successful publishing company. </div></div>

Baen is an interesting place, and it looks like that business model works for many authors. I also like their pay for ebook section and the fact that it's the author's choice, if they want to offer a few of their books for free or not. The authors, get to control which go out for free and which don't. Can't pay the bills if they all go out for free.

SH does the same thing here, right? I wonder how each of them would feel about it, if the content they didn't want to let go for free was stolen and released on some other website? In particular, a website where they have no practicle recourse to stop them.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wolvenhaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://baen.com/library/intro.asp

Works pretty damn well for them, they're an extremely successful publishing company. </div></div>

Baen is an interesting place, and it looks like that business model works for many authors. I also like their pay for ebook section and the fact that it's the author's choice, if they want to offer a few of their books for free or not. The authors, get to control which go out for free and which don't. Can't pay the bills if they all go out for free.

SH does the same thing here, right? I wonder how each of them would feel about it, if the content they didn't want to let go for free was stolen and released on some other website? In particular, a website where they have no practicle recourse to stop them.

</div></div>

They'd be fine with it; with every hard copy of a baen book you purchase, you get a CD in the cover of ALL of the books that author has written, along with a various selection of other authors as well. And those CDs are free to copy, distribute, share, host, and use, as long as you don't sell them. Baen releases all of their books under a GNU like licence. Bands which have released albums for free, or under a "you decide what you want to pay" system have become enormously popular. And you said it right there "that it's the author's choice"; let the content producer chose, instead of forcing legislature on everyone. Besides, they ALREADY have the means to stop them, it's called the DMCA, which follows due process, SOPA and PIPA ignore due process and reverse the burden of proof.

Copyright doesn't mean you have to pay for something, it means that the owner of that content has the right to distribute their work in any way they so wish.

http://www.ted.com/talks/defend_our_freedom_to_share_or_why_sopa_is_a_bad_idea.html
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wolvenhaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They'd be fine with it; with every hard copy of a baen book you purchase, you get a CD in the cover of ALL of the books that author has written, along with a various selection of other authors as well. And those CDs are free to copy, distribute, share, host, and use, as long as you don't sell them. Baen releases all of their books under a GNU like licence. Bands which have released albums for free, or under a "you decide what you want to pay" system have become enormously popular. And you said it right there "that it's the author's choice"; let the content producer chose, instead of forcing legislature on everyone. Besides, they ALREADY have the means to stop them, it's called the DMCA, which follows due process, SOPA and PIPA ignore due process and reverse the burden of proof.

Copyright doesn't mean you have to pay for something, it means that the owner of that content has the right to distribute their work in any way they so wish.

http://www.ted.com/talks/defend_our_freedom_to_share_or_why_sopa_is_a_bad_idea.html</div></div>

Understood and I'm not advocating for either bill. But what recourse do current content providers have, when they choose NOT to have their content distributed freely and then it is distributed by a website overseas, outside the reach of copyright laws?

Do we just tell me tough, you're on your own, that's the price of freedom? Do we tell them to just do what Baen does? The Baen model works great for romance novelists cranking out a new book every month, but that model doesn't work for everyone nor should it be the only one. What about the guy that just wrote one book? Is he fine with it?
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
ecg said:
Also Region coding, as far as movies, are EXCELLENT at preventing piracy. I remember being overseas and many times I was unable to play a European DVD in an American DVD player, and vice-versa.
</div></div>

Sorry but regional coding does nothing to prevent piracy.
A lot of, if not most, DVD players sold here in Europe either are or can be made region free. Region coding was implemented to have different release dates in different regions, not to prevent piracy. BluRays are a little different but most studios don't hard code the region on BR so most are region free.
And for the computer there are a number of software which strips the region code and allow the movie to be viewed. Or stripped and saved on the hard-drive and later uploaded to the Internet.

If they want to stop piracy you'll have to come up with new distribution methods and other incentives and not technical gizmo's and software which will always be broken.
But lately the DRM systems have become so elaborate and inconvenient that the pirated version is actually a better product than the legal one...
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wolvenhaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They'd be fine with it; with every hard copy of a baen book you purchase, you get a CD in the cover of ALL of the books that author has written, along with a various selection of other authors as well. And those CDs are free to copy, distribute, share, host, and use, as long as you don't sell them. Baen releases all of their books under a GNU like licence. Bands which have released albums for free, or under a "you decide what you want to pay" system have become enormously popular. And you said it right there "that it's the author's choice"; let the content producer chose, instead of forcing legislature on everyone. Besides, they ALREADY have the means to stop them, it's called the DMCA, which follows due process, SOPA and PIPA ignore due process and reverse the burden of proof.

Copyright doesn't mean you have to pay for something, it means that the owner of that content has the right to distribute their work in any way they so wish.

http://www.ted.com/talks/defend_our_freedom_to_share_or_why_sopa_is_a_bad_idea.html</div></div>

Understood and I'm not advocating for either bill. But what recourse do current content providers have, when they choose NOT to have their content distributed freely and then it is distributed by a website overseas, outside the reach of copyright laws?

Do we just tell me tough, you're on your own, that's the price of freedom? Do we tell them to just do what Baen does? The Baen model works great for romance novelists cranking out a new book every month, but that model doesn't work for everyone nor should it be the only one. What about the guy that just wrote one book? Is he fine with it?

</div></div>

Romance novelist cranking out a book every month? The baen authors are scifi and fantasy and they probably write one book a year. You keep posing these strawman arguments which don't hold any logical validity.
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wolvenhaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Romance novelist cranking out a book every month? The baen authors are scifi and fantasy and they probably write one book a year. You keep posing these strawman arguments which don't hold any logical validity. </div></div>

Ok so they're scifi authors cranking out a book a year. So what? And you keep ignoring the point. How about answering the salient questions instead of dodging them with weak claims of fallacious arguments.

Here I'll requote it for you...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But what recourse do current content providers have, when they choose NOT to have their content distributed freely and then it is distributed by a website overseas, outside the reach of copyright laws?

Do we just tell me tough, you're on your own, that's the price of freedom? Do we tell them to just do what Baen does?</div></div>
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

This just in, and this will make you wonder why SOPA and PIPA are needed if the Justice Department could do this for this entire time...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..(Reuters) - The U.S. government shut down the Megaupload.com content sharing website, charging its founders and several employees with massive copyright infringement, the latest skirmish in a high-profile battle against piracy of movies and music.

The Department of Justice announced the indictment and arrests of four company executives in New Zealand on Friday as debate over online piracy reaches fever pitch in Washington where lawmakers are trying to craft tougher legislation.

The movie and music industries want Congress to crack down on Internet piracy and content theft, but major Internet companies like Google and Facebook have complained that current drafts of the legislation would lead to censorship.

A Justice Department official said the timing of the arrests was not related to the battle in Congress.

New Zealand police on Friday raided a mansion in Auckland and arrested Megaupload founder Kim Dotcom, also known as Kim Schmitz, 37, a German national with New Zealand residency.

About 70 police, some armed, raided 10 properties and also arrested the website's chief marketing officer, Finn Batato, 38, chief technical officer and co-founder Mathias Ortmann, 40, both also from Germany, and Dutch national Bram van der Kolk, 29, who is also a New Zealand resident.

New Zealand police seized millions of dollars worth of assets, which included luxury cars such as a Rolls Royce Phantom Drophead Coupe, from the group, dubbed the "Mega Conspiracy" by prosecutors. They also seized more than NZ$10 million ($8 million) from financial institutions.

"The FBI contacted New Zealand Police in early 2011 with a request to assist with their investigation into the Mega Conspiracy," said Detective Inspector Grant Wormald from the Organised & Financial Crime Agency New Zealand.

"All the accused have been indicted in the United States. We will continue to work with the U.S. authorities to assist with the extradition proceedings," Wormald said in a statement.

The men appeared briefly in an Auckland court on Friday and were remanded in custody until Monday for a bail hearing.

"We have nothing to hide," Kim Dotcom said from the dock after his lawyer opposed media cameras in the court, reported New Zealand media.

HACKERS RETALIATE

Vocal critics of the U.S. Stop Online Piracy Act, or SOPA, and Protect IP Act (PIPA), quickly showed their opposition to the shutdown of Megaupload.com, with hackers attacking the public websites of the Justice Department, the world's largest music company Universal Music, and the two big trade groups that represent the music and film industries.

"The government takes down Megaupload? 15 minutes later Anonymous takes down government & record label sites," a member of Anonymous said via Twitter.

Representatives with the Justice Department and Recording Industry Association of America declined comment on the attacks. Officials with Universal Music could not immediately be reached.

Motion Picture Association of America spokesman Howard Gantman said his group was working with law enforcement to identify the attackers.

The Mega Conspiracy group was accused of engaging in a scheme that took more than $500 million away from copyright holders and generated over $175 million in proceeds from subscriptions and advertising, according to the indictment unsealed on Thursday.

"In exchange for payment, the Mega Conspiracy provides fast reproduction and distribution of infringing copies of copyrighted works from its servers located around the world," the indictment said.

U.S. Justice Department officials said that the estimate of $500 million in economic harm to copyright holders was on the low end and likely significantly more.

The allegations included copyright infringement as well as conspiracy to commit copyright infringement, conspiracy to commit money laundering and conspiracy to commit racketeering.

RACKETEERING, MONEY LAUNDERING

If convicted, the maximum penalties are 20 years for conspiracy to commit racketeering and to commit money laundering and five years for each count of copyright infringement and five years for conspiracy to commit copyright infringement.

The companies charged, Megaupload Ltd and Vestor Ltd, were both registered in Hong Kong and owned either in large part or solely by Dotcom. A lawyer who has previously worked with Megaupload was not immediately available for comment.

Megaupload has boasted of having more than 150 million registered users and 50 million daily visitors, according to the indictment. At one point, it was estimated to be the 13th most frequently visited website on the Internet.

Users could upload material to the company's sites which then would create a link that could be distributed. The sites, which included video, music and pornography, did not provide search capabilities but rather relied on others to publish the links, the indictment said.

Users could purchase memberships to the site to obtain faster upload and download services, the primary source of revenue. Material that was not regularly downloaded was deleted and financial incentives were offered for popular content, according to the charges.

The web page with the link to the copyrighted material would include advertisements, another source of revenue.

If copyright holders complained about a specific link to the website, prosecutors said that Megaupload.com would remove that link but scores of others existed to the same material, according to prosecutors.

Other material found uploaded included child pornography and terrorism propaganda videos, according to the indictment. The U.S. government's investigation began in March 2010.

(Reporting by Jeremy Pelofsky and Jim Finkle in WASHINGTON; Additional reporting by Diane Bartz and Yinka Adegoke, and Mantik Kusjanto in Wellington.; Editing by Gary Hill, Phil Berlowitz, Michael Perry and Mark Bendeich)
</div></div>
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This just in, and this will make you wonder why SOPA and PIPA are needed if the Justice Department could do this for this entire time...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..(Reuters) - The U.S. government shut down the Megaupload.com content sharing website, charging its founders and several employees with massive copyright infringement, the latest skirmish in a high-profile battle against piracy of movies and music.

The Department of Justice announced the indictment and arrests of four company executives in New Zealand on Friday as debate over online piracy reaches fever pitch in Washington where lawmakers are trying to craft tougher legislation.

The movie and music industries want Congress to crack down on Internet piracy and content theft, but major Internet companies like Google and Facebook have complained that current drafts of the legislation would lead to censorship.

A Justice Department official said the timing of the arrests was not related to the battle in Congress.

New Zealand police on Friday raided a mansion in Auckland and arrested Megaupload founder Kim Dotcom, also known as Kim Schmitz, 37, a German national with New Zealand residency.

About 70 police, some armed, raided 10 properties and also arrested the website's chief marketing officer, Finn Batato, 38, chief technical officer and co-founder Mathias Ortmann, 40, both also from Germany, and Dutch national Bram van der Kolk, 29, who is also a New Zealand resident.

New Zealand police seized millions of dollars worth of assets, which included luxury cars such as a Rolls Royce Phantom Drophead Coupe, from the group, dubbed the "Mega Conspiracy" by prosecutors. They also seized more than NZ$10 million ($8 million) from financial institutions.

"The FBI contacted New Zealand Police in early 2011 with a request to assist with their investigation into the Mega Conspiracy," said Detective Inspector Grant Wormald from the Organised & Financial Crime Agency New Zealand.

"All the accused have been indicted in the United States. We will continue to work with the U.S. authorities to assist with the extradition proceedings," Wormald said in a statement.

The men appeared briefly in an Auckland court on Friday and were remanded in custody until Monday for a bail hearing.

"We have nothing to hide," Kim Dotcom said from the dock after his lawyer opposed media cameras in the court, reported New Zealand media.

HACKERS RETALIATE

Vocal critics of the U.S. Stop Online Piracy Act, or SOPA, and Protect IP Act (PIPA), quickly showed their opposition to the shutdown of Megaupload.com, with hackers attacking the public websites of the Justice Department, the world's largest music company Universal Music, and the two big trade groups that represent the music and film industries.

"The government takes down Megaupload? 15 minutes later Anonymous takes down government & record label sites," a member of Anonymous said via Twitter.

Representatives with the Justice Department and Recording Industry Association of America declined comment on the attacks. Officials with Universal Music could not immediately be reached.

Motion Picture Association of America spokesman Howard Gantman said his group was working with law enforcement to identify the attackers.

The Mega Conspiracy group was accused of engaging in a scheme that took more than $500 million away from copyright holders and generated over $175 million in proceeds from subscriptions and advertising, according to the indictment unsealed on Thursday.

"In exchange for payment, the Mega Conspiracy provides fast reproduction and distribution of infringing copies of copyrighted works from its servers located around the world," the indictment said.

U.S. Justice Department officials said that the estimate of $500 million in economic harm to copyright holders was on the low end and likely significantly more.

The allegations included copyright infringement as well as conspiracy to commit copyright infringement, conspiracy to commit money laundering and conspiracy to commit racketeering.

RACKETEERING, MONEY LAUNDERING

If convicted, the maximum penalties are 20 years for conspiracy to commit racketeering and to commit money laundering and five years for each count of copyright infringement and five years for conspiracy to commit copyright infringement.

The companies charged, Megaupload Ltd and Vestor Ltd, were both registered in Hong Kong and owned either in large part or solely by Dotcom. A lawyer who has previously worked with Megaupload was not immediately available for comment.

Megaupload has boasted of having more than 150 million registered users and 50 million daily visitors, according to the indictment. At one point, it was estimated to be the 13th most frequently visited website on the Internet.

Users could upload material to the company's sites which then would create a link that could be distributed. The sites, which included video, music and pornography, did not provide search capabilities but rather relied on others to publish the links, the indictment said.

Users could purchase memberships to the site to obtain faster upload and download services, the primary source of revenue. Material that was not regularly downloaded was deleted and financial incentives were offered for popular content, according to the charges.

The web page with the link to the copyrighted material would include advertisements, another source of revenue.

If copyright holders complained about a specific link to the website, prosecutors said that Megaupload.com would remove that link but scores of others existed to the same material, according to prosecutors.

Other material found uploaded included child pornography and terrorism propaganda videos, according to the indictment. The U.S. government's investigation began in March 2010.

(Reporting by Jeremy Pelofsky and Jim Finkle in WASHINGTON; Additional reporting by Diane Bartz and Yinka Adegoke, and Mantik Kusjanto in Wellington.; Editing by Gary Hill, Phil Berlowitz, Michael Perry and Mark Bendeich)
</div></div> </div></div>

I'd consider this good news. Not sure everyone else would agree. It definately shows the extent of the piracy problem and supports your position that our current copyright laws are effective. I'd like to see more successes like this especially in less cooperative countries.

What do you think about Anonymous's response?
 
Re: Wikipedia and Google protesting censorship act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What do you think about Anonymous's response?
</div></div>

Sounds simply like a knee jerk reaction to this. I don't agree with hacking, and my focus as far as this topic is that both of the Acts are a needless waste of government time and money, and in the long run just another bill to the American taxpayer, as well as putting undo strain, and unjust responsibility on internet search engines.