Hello I am new to this sight not normally my area. I bought a Winchester model 70 US Property engraved. serial number 4096xx in a marksmen stock. I would like to find out if this is Army or USMC. I am guessing that this is a competition gun but would be really cool if it was used as a sniper. I have not received this one yet should have it end of week. It seems to have the barrel replaced and is stamped 6-64 and is in 30-06. Will post some pics as soon as I can with more info.
- Thread starter drakar77
- Start date
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
WOW, yes I can't wait to see pictures of it.
WOW, yes I can't wait to see pictures of it.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 6-64 stamp on the barrel still may be interesting.</div></div>
That just tells you the rifle was rebuilt in Jun of 64. Common marking on military owned rifles.
You might shoot off an e-mail to the army marksmanship unit to see if that rifle was ever on their property books. Also if its a CMP sold rifle they may have records of where they got it, and who it was sold to. They charge a fee for that, forgot how much but it is reasonable.
However, chances are it was sold when CMP was DCM so the records may not be available.
Like others, I WANT TO SEE PICTURES. One of my favorite rifles.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 6-64 stamp on the barrel still may be interesting.</div></div>
That just tells you the rifle was rebuilt in Jun of 64. Common marking on military owned rifles.
You might shoot off an e-mail to the army marksmanship unit to see if that rifle was ever on their property books. Also if its a CMP sold rifle they may have records of where they got it, and who it was sold to. They charge a fee for that, forgot how much but it is reasonable.
However, chances are it was sold when CMP was DCM so the records may not be available.
Like others, I WANT TO SEE PICTURES. One of my favorite rifles.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
What is something like that worth?
What is something like that worth?
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
It sounds like one of the M70's that the CMP was selling up until a couple of months ago. IMHO these were rifles used for the target shooters in the military and not for sniping use. Like most things on the CMP auction site these went for more than they were worth IMHO. If I rememeber correctly they were selling in the $1500 range which is way more than a rebarelled M70 should go for, especially when you consider that the stocks were in so-so shape, the actions proably had 10's of thousands of rounds through them, and they had US PROPERTY scribbled on them with an electric pencil.
It sounds like one of the M70's that the CMP was selling up until a couple of months ago. IMHO these were rifles used for the target shooters in the military and not for sniping use. Like most things on the CMP auction site these went for more than they were worth IMHO. If I rememeber correctly they were selling in the $1500 range which is way more than a rebarelled M70 should go for, especially when you consider that the stocks were in so-so shape, the actions proably had 10's of thousands of rounds through them, and they had US PROPERTY scribbled on them with an electric pencil.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
Reelman, in Vietnam the USMC used the M70's that had been previously used by the rifle teams in a sniping capacity. Its also documented the M70's that actually been assigned to base services were also used. However most of these rifles were actually pre-war Model 70's with a five digit serial number. The Armys 1st Division also used M70's in a sniping capacity as early as July 1965. Theres further documented evidence that shows that M70's purchased in the 50's by both the USMC and Army for their respective rifle teams ended up being used in a sniping capacity in Vietnam.
Reelman, in Vietnam the USMC used the M70's that had been previously used by the rifle teams in a sniping capacity. Its also documented the M70's that actually been assigned to base services were also used. However most of these rifles were actually pre-war Model 70's with a five digit serial number. The Armys 1st Division also used M70's in a sniping capacity as early as July 1965. Theres further documented evidence that shows that M70's purchased in the 50's by both the USMC and Army for their respective rifle teams ended up being used in a sniping capacity in Vietnam.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
mjh, All the pictures of M70's used in Vietnam had factory barrels on them. Granted I haven't seen pictures of them all but I would have noticed a big untapered barrel either left silver or made out of stainless like the one's CMP had. And since the rifle in question appears to be rebuilt in '64 it was done before Vietnam.
Of course anything is possible but it's highly unlikely that these M70's were ever anywhere but the army base and Camp Perry.
mjh, All the pictures of M70's used in Vietnam had factory barrels on them. Granted I haven't seen pictures of them all but I would have noticed a big untapered barrel either left silver or made out of stainless like the one's CMP had. And since the rifle in question appears to be rebuilt in '64 it was done before Vietnam.
Of course anything is possible but it's highly unlikely that these M70's were ever anywhere but the army base and Camp Perry.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
Actually most of the M70's used in Vietnam were sporting medium weight target barrels, (.790) compared to the factory .600. Most of, if not all the USMC rifle teams M70's were shipped to Vietnam for use in sniping capacity, in fact the need for these rifles was so bad they actually scoured base services and grabbed the M70's assigned to them for use also.
Actually most of the M70's used in Vietnam were sporting medium weight target barrels, (.790) compared to the factory .600. Most of, if not all the USMC rifle teams M70's were shipped to Vietnam for use in sniping capacity, in fact the need for these rifles was so bad they actually scoured base services and grabbed the M70's assigned to them for use also.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
This particular photo of L.Cpl Dalton Gunderson comes to mind
This particular photo of L.Cpl Dalton Gunderson comes to mind
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
Yes, I am under the impression that this will be an Army team rifle. Did any Marksman stocks got to Nam? I Looked back on the Cmp auctions and man these did go for some bucks. 2000 all the way to 7200.00. And saw two one other auctions that brought 3500 and 4200. Crazy. I would like to know if this is a USMC or Army rifle. How would I get a hold of the Army Marksmenship team to find if it was ever on their books? I am on pins and needles waiting to put my unertl on it and put some rounds down range. Not sure if I will keep it but will play with it for awhile and amass all the history I can. That is half the fun for me. Thanks for the input guys.
Yes, I am under the impression that this will be an Army team rifle. Did any Marksman stocks got to Nam? I Looked back on the Cmp auctions and man these did go for some bucks. 2000 all the way to 7200.00. And saw two one other auctions that brought 3500 and 4200. Crazy. I would like to know if this is a USMC or Army rifle. How would I get a hold of the Army Marksmenship team to find if it was ever on their books? I am on pins and needles waiting to put my unertl on it and put some rounds down range. Not sure if I will keep it but will play with it for awhile and amass all the history I can. That is half the fun for me. Thanks for the input guys.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
drakar77,
Thanks for posting your information, I have rifle number 4095**.
I always wondered if my rifle was Army or USMC. After I read Senich's book "One Round War", on page 86, there is rifle number 409748, close to my serial number. So I have assumed that AMTU probably bought a bunch of rifles and they were in the same number range. I'm only guessing at this, no proof. If anyone knows different please share your info.
My rifle came with the low comb stock (no checkering), Lyman Super Targetspot scope.
Does AMTU still have records of these rifles ? How would you contact them if so ?
I'll try and post some pics.
drakar77,
Thanks for posting your information, I have rifle number 4095**.
I always wondered if my rifle was Army or USMC. After I read Senich's book "One Round War", on page 86, there is rifle number 409748, close to my serial number. So I have assumed that AMTU probably bought a bunch of rifles and they were in the same number range. I'm only guessing at this, no proof. If anyone knows different please share your info.
My rifle came with the low comb stock (no checkering), Lyman Super Targetspot scope.
Does AMTU still have records of these rifles ? How would you contact them if so ?
I'll try and post some pics.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
On the CMP's past auctions the serial numbers range between 350,000 to 411,000 range most in the 398 405 409 and 411,000's
The ones around ours are 409,659, 409667 (mine), 409707, 409,755, and 409,773. There were a few serial numbers alot lower but not many. Found two more, 409541 on icollector.com and sold for 4250.00 Wow! and the second that only states that the serial number 409xxx sold on gunsamerica for 6500.00 Double Wow.
On the CMP's past auctions the serial numbers range between 350,000 to 411,000 range most in the 398 405 409 and 411,000's
The ones around ours are 409,659, 409667 (mine), 409707, 409,755, and 409,773. There were a few serial numbers alot lower but not many. Found two more, 409541 on icollector.com and sold for 4250.00 Wow! and the second that only states that the serial number 409xxx sold on gunsamerica for 6500.00 Double Wow.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
A lot more Winchester Model 70's made it into combat than the military seems to want to admit. WWII, Korea and Vietnam. I don't know what that pissing contest was about, but what was issued as a sniper rifle in those conflicts wasn't as good as what was 'put to work' in the form of the M70.
If you have some kind of provenance that your rifle served as a sniper rifle, then it'll go for some bucks no doubt. Even if you have provenance that it was one of a number of rifles that were 'recreation' rifles, that probably were 'procured' for the reason stated.
If this angle helps any, figure it this way. Winchester, Remington and Savage all got to enjoy post WWI spoils of war in that they were granted rights to produce Mauser actioned rifles. Winchester didn't start producing these until 1925 in the form of the Model 54. Why they didn't stay with the U.S. Model of 1917 is beyond me. Remington started production of an almost direct copy, the model 30 and Savage started producing the model 1920 in ...1920 (Remington later ripped the idea off and called it the model 721/722).
Anyhow, get the provenance and it'll be worth a lot more than without. But, as for a great shooting specimen of it's time the Winchester 70 is just an excellent rifle. You might remember too, that one of their best accuracy attributes was the fact the barrels were cut-rifled up until the "great-turnover" of 1963/1964. Not hammer forged like after that.
A lot more Winchester Model 70's made it into combat than the military seems to want to admit. WWII, Korea and Vietnam. I don't know what that pissing contest was about, but what was issued as a sniper rifle in those conflicts wasn't as good as what was 'put to work' in the form of the M70.
If you have some kind of provenance that your rifle served as a sniper rifle, then it'll go for some bucks no doubt. Even if you have provenance that it was one of a number of rifles that were 'recreation' rifles, that probably were 'procured' for the reason stated.
If this angle helps any, figure it this way. Winchester, Remington and Savage all got to enjoy post WWI spoils of war in that they were granted rights to produce Mauser actioned rifles. Winchester didn't start producing these until 1925 in the form of the Model 54. Why they didn't stay with the U.S. Model of 1917 is beyond me. Remington started production of an almost direct copy, the model 30 and Savage started producing the model 1920 in ...1920 (Remington later ripped the idea off and called it the model 721/722).
Anyhow, get the provenance and it'll be worth a lot more than without. But, as for a great shooting specimen of it's time the Winchester 70 is just an excellent rifle. You might remember too, that one of their best accuracy attributes was the fact the barrels were cut-rifled up until the "great-turnover" of 1963/1964. Not hammer forged like after that.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
drakar, those prices are incredible, but if there are people willing to pay those prices....oh well.
sandwarrior, agree with you completely. I hope records will become available that show where these rifles were used/issued, both AMU and USMC. Probably won't happen but you never can tell.
drakar, those prices are incredible, but if there are people willing to pay those prices....oh well.
sandwarrior, agree with you completely. I hope records will become available that show where these rifles were used/issued, both AMU and USMC. Probably won't happen but you never can tell.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
Yes, I am hopeful that I can atleast determine Army or USMC... I love the research part of buying guns almost more then shooting. I pretty much stole this one so if and when I would sell it I will make some money and someone else would feel they got a great deal too. Sorry if it seems I am looking at price only, I am not just stands out with my searches. Some ppl out there really value the M70! I have never owned one or even held one. If it shoots as good as I think it will it may replace my M1917 as my 30-06 bolt gun.
Yes, I am hopeful that I can atleast determine Army or USMC... I love the research part of buying guns almost more then shooting. I pretty much stole this one so if and when I would sell it I will make some money and someone else would feel they got a great deal too. Sorry if it seems I am looking at price only, I am not just stands out with my searches. Some ppl out there really value the M70! I have never owned one or even held one. If it shoots as good as I think it will it may replace my M1917 as my 30-06 bolt gun.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tat2steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bought mine 22 years ago, sight unseen. A friend in Houston called me and saw it at an estate sale and thought I might want it. So I took a chance, the chance paid off.</div></div>
What's the history on yours, Steve?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tat2steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bought mine 22 years ago, sight unseen. A friend in Houston called me and saw it at an estate sale and thought I might want it. So I took a chance, the chance paid off.</div></div>
What's the history on yours, Steve?
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reelman, in Vietnam the USMC used the M70's that had been previously used by the rifle teams in a sniping capacity. Its also documented the M70's that actually been assigned to base services were also used. However most of these rifles were actually pre-war Model 70's with a five digit serial number. The Armys 1st Division also used M70's in a sniping capacity as early as July 1965. Theres further documented evidence that shows that M70's purchased in the 50's by both the USMC and Army for their respective rifle teams ended up being used in a sniping capacity in Vietnam. </div></div>
+1 The rifles in the early Vietnam sniper program were competition rifles originally in many cases. I believe Col Land had his own competition rifle specifically sent to him in Vietnam for instance.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reelman, in Vietnam the USMC used the M70's that had been previously used by the rifle teams in a sniping capacity. Its also documented the M70's that actually been assigned to base services were also used. However most of these rifles were actually pre-war Model 70's with a five digit serial number. The Armys 1st Division also used M70's in a sniping capacity as early as July 1965. Theres further documented evidence that shows that M70's purchased in the 50's by both the USMC and Army for their respective rifle teams ended up being used in a sniping capacity in Vietnam. </div></div>
+1 The rifles in the early Vietnam sniper program were competition rifles originally in many cases. I believe Col Land had his own competition rifle specifically sent to him in Vietnam for instance.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tat2steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bought mine 22 years ago, sight unseen. A friend in Houston called me and saw it at an estate sale and thought I might want it. So I took a chance, the chance paid off.</div></div>
What's the history on yours, Steve? </div></div>
I know very little of this rifle, it sat in my gun vault for several years until Senich's book came out and noticed the serial numbers as mentioned earlier, then I knew I probably had something.
I hope someone comes up with some records from USMC,AMTU,DOD that will give us more info.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tat2steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bought mine 22 years ago, sight unseen. A friend in Houston called me and saw it at an estate sale and thought I might want it. So I took a chance, the chance paid off.</div></div>
What's the history on yours, Steve? </div></div>
I know very little of this rifle, it sat in my gun vault for several years until Senich's book came out and noticed the serial numbers as mentioned earlier, then I knew I probably had something.
I hope someone comes up with some records from USMC,AMTU,DOD that will give us more info.
Re: Winchester model 70 US PROP question.
It would sure be cool if you ever got to find that out.
-good luck on that. In the meantime, keep plugging away with it. Practice never hurts.
It would sure be cool if you ever got to find that out.
-good luck on that. In the meantime, keep plugging away with it. Practice never hurts.
Similar threads
