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Would I be missing anything by skipping the bolt and going straight to semi for LR?

H

henschman

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Minuteman
Nov 14, 2010
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Oklahoma City, OK
I am wanting to put together my first dedicated long range rig -- I am thinking something in 6.5 Creedmoor. My original plan was to build both a bolt and a semi in that caliber, but lately I have been giving some thought to skipping the bolt altogether and just putting together a semi. I already have a LR-308 that is free floated, so it would just be a matter of buying a new barrel and some good glass. Then again I also have a Savage 11 .308 that could serve as the basis for a nice bolt build.

What say y'all? Go ahead and skip the bolt, or would I regret it?

It's main intended use would be for 2A purposes... I'd like it to be effective on human targets out to say 1200 yards, but with most use being a good bit closer. I would also like to start hitting some tactical matches, and maybe go to a sniper class or two.
 
Given that most of us AREN'T really snipers here or play them on TV, you have set yourself up for a load of flak. How do you justify shooting a person at 1200 yards? Tell us what threat that person presents to you at the time you squeeze your trigger?

Now if you are interested in precision long distance shooting for the purpose of learning about the same, you've come to a very good place.

Perhaps you might want to rephrase your post.
 
This is the"stupid" ssection, so I forgive him.......but I'm gonna get some popcorn and watch the fireworks. Naaaa, it's looking like a good range day. Check this for later.
 
henschman said:
I'd like it to be effective on human targets out to say 1200 yards, but with most use being a good bit closer.
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Maybe toss a little bald eagle and spotted owl poaching in there as well...

There are some good "tactical" rifle training courses out there, but most do not focus on the fieldcraft art of the sniper. Most here on the Hide discuss practical tactical shooting and training, we leave words like "sniper" and "human targets" far away from the conversation.
 
Ok... Now that some fun has been had....

Start with a bolt rifle... it will give you a grounding that will serve you well. However, there is a huge difference between bolt action accuracy and semi auto accuracy.. Plus, if your looking to shoot a semi-auto with precision ammo, it's going to get very expensive...
 
Perhaps he meant in the zombies at 1200. Or maybe he's just some news guy eager to report on evil folks....
 
Thanks Gnzrme.

As for the rest of y'all, clearly I'm not being understood correctly. When I say "2A," that is a common abbreviation for "Second Amendment." So when I say the main purpose of this weapon is "2A purposes," I am referring to the main reason that the Second Amendment was added to the U.S. Constitution. Does that clear anything up regarding the possible justification of taking a shot out to 1200 yards, why I want to build a sniper rifle, why anyone would want to own evil black rifles with no sporting purpose, etc.?
 
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I think most if not all here know what 2A is a reference to. I use all my precision rifles primarily for "sporting purpose", shooting tactical comps and even hunting. We need to be very careful what we discuss and the words we choose, consider it an obligation. We all need to consider ourselves spokespersons for the 2A cause, using words like human targets is a big flag. You will also find that even the word "sniper rifle" is seldom used here, ironic when you consider that the site is Snipers Hide, its just a sign of the times we live in.

I wouldn't take it personal or feel like you are being attacked.
 
Quit digging...

henschman said:
Thanks Gnzrme.

As for the rest of y'all, clearly I'm not being understood correctly. When I say "2A," that is a common abbreviation for "Second Amendment." So when I say the main purpose of this weapon is "2A purposes," I am referring to the main reason that the Second Amendment was added to the U.S. Constitution. Does that clear anything up regarding the possible justification of taking a shot out to 1200 yards, why I want to build a sniper rifle, why anyone would want to own evil black rifles with no sporting purpose, etc.?
Click to expand...
 
I'm seeing a lot of FUDD here. Fear, uncertainty, distraction, and doubt. What are you so afraid of Captain Kirk? What terrible outcome do you think is going to happen to you if you openly discuss gear selection as it relates to the purpose behind the 2A, which all we as armed and able bodied free men have the responsibility to uphold? Who are you so afraid of "raising red flags" with?

If there is anyone here who doesn't have an issue with gun ownership for "non sporting purposes," please don't let this distract from the main question of the thread. Bolt or semi? What am I giving up by going semi instead of bolt? I know the semi will likely not be as accurate, but how much difference are we talking here? I know a quality AR with a good barrel and trigger can be reliably sub MOA... hell, I've seen plenty of posts on here where guys have held at or under MOA out to 800 yards and whatnot with gas guns... it seems if I build a 6.5 CM rig with a good quality 22" barrel like what JP sells, I could expect sub-MOA performance out of it. Am I off the mark on that assessment?
 
henschman said:
hell, I've seen plenty of posts on here where guys have held at or under MOA out to 800 yards and whatnot with gas guns... it seems if I build a 6.5 CM rig with a good quality 22" barrel like what JP sells, I could expect sub-MOA performance out of it. Am I off the mark on that assessment?
Click to expand...

I'll preface by saying that while JP makes some nice stuff, I've not found it to hold up to the hype. So don't think its going to be as simple as slapping together a gun with JP parts and everything will work as god intended. The 6.5CM in a gas gun seems to be a bit finicky, I think the difference lies in the caliber nuances between 6.5CM and 308WIN. The propellant is different, pressure amount and curve are different, and more to the point...handloaded 6.5CM ammo is different again. It manifests with timing issues as the bolt unlocks early and you need to have a good grasp of whats going on in order to diagnose and fix it. Assuming all of that is true and you build a sub moa capable gun you are still likely to have issues wringing that kind of accuracy out of it as you MUST have a very firm grasp and command of the fundamentals. There are too many moving parts on an auto loading gun that make it much less forgiving to errors in the fundamentals. This isn't opinion, its fact, ask an instructor, and it mirrors my own experience...you have to be on your game with a gas gun to get the potential out of it. You're better off with the bolt gun, even though its less 'cool'

To save you further grief, I'd save your '2A' discussions for another forum. This place isn't very tolerant of the mall ninja, wannabe sniper, 'shtf' prepper disaster discussions. By the way, unless you work in LE or the MIL you aren't going to have an easy time finding a 'sniper' class that will even admit you. Most places are leery of teaching that kind of field craft to anybody that shows up for the class. I suggest you take the savage or the LR308 you already have and attend a tactical rifle match or two and in an afternoon or two you will start to see just how much of what you are talking about is realistic with regard to accuracy at distance under stress.
 
henschman said:
I'm seeing a lot of FUDD here. Fear, uncertainty, distraction, and doubt. What are you so afraid of Captain Kirk? What terrible outcome do you think is going to happen to you if you openly discuss gear selection as it relates to the purpose behind the 2A, which all we as armed and able bodied free men have the responsibility to uphold? Who are you so afraid of "raising red flags" with?
Click to expand...

You mistake my reply for fear. I do not fear many things, but I try to word things very carefully keeping in mind this site is global. Realize that any word you write can be read by people that do not share your views, and thay will read into what you are saying. Don't listen to me, say what you want and you will find out that others will have the same response that I have, its not accepted here. Again, don't take my reply as an attack, just realize that even though we share the same views in many respects, our approach may be different. Some will walk down the street with a AR15 on their shoulder in an attempt to make a point and it is their legal right to do so, it's just not the approach I take.

I will get back on track. When I started shooting matches many years ago, I was running a GAP AR10 which is a very capable gas gun, I soon found that they are much harder to shoot consistantly when compared to a bolt gun, so I purchased a bolt gun and my scores and skills improved at a faster rate. I have since become more consistant with the gas gun, but will always gravitate to the bolt gun for long range precision matches. The gas guns are fun and with a significant amount of training, a shooter can be very competitive.
 
Captain Kirk said:
You mistake my reply for fear. I do not fear many things, but I try to word things very carefully keeping in mind this site is global. Realize that any word you write can be read by people that do not share your views, and thay will read into what you are saying. Don't listen to me, say what you want and you will find out that others will have the same response that I have, its not accepted here. Again, don't take my reply as an attack, just realize that even though we share the same views in many respects, our approach may be different. Some will walk down the street with a AR15 on their shoulder in an attempt to make a point and it is their legal right to do so, it's just not the approach I take.

I will get back on track. When I started shooting matches many years ago, I was running a GAP AR10 which is a very capable gas gun, I soon found that they are much harder to shoot consistantly when compared to a bolt gun, so I purchased a bolt gun and my scores and skills improved at a faster rate. I have since become more consistant with the gas gun, but will always gravitate to the bolt gun for long range precision matches. The gas guns are fun and with a significant amount of training, a shooter can be very competitive.
Click to expand...

I'm going to mirror captain Kirk's sentiment exactly. There is a reason why I have started frequenting here more than other gun forums, one in specific, that I will not name. I am not a sniper nor do I pretend to be one. I come here to learn about gear and techniques that I can't learn from people I know personally. This sight has cost me a lot of moe y but has saved me far more through it's gear reviews and technical know how. I enjoy precision shooting and hunting. I followed all of that prepper stuff when I was younger. Not so much anymore. I no longer care to worry about a situation I can neither control or prevent. There is too many other things in life to enjoy.

As far as the original question. I prefer shooting my bolt guns over my semi autos. As for the caliber choice, I can not speak on the 6.5 cartridge as I don't own one.
 
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I hear y'all on the semi requiring stronger fundamentals. I actually have a fair bit of trigger time (and coaching time) on semi autos shooting in various sling-supported positional disciplines, albeit most of that with iron sights, but I have a pretty good grasp on what it takes to shoot one consistently and accurately. I am also aware of the pressure issues that arise with ARs in 6.5 CM. One of the reasons I am considering JP's barrel so strongly is that it comes with a high pressure bolt that mitigates some of these issues. LawnMM, I might take your advice and hit a match with one of my current setups. I'd need to get some glass... I currently don't own a scope over 4x, lol... but I am interested in getting into the game. As for sniper classes, there is a well-respected sniper school here in my state that doesn't have an "only ones" mentality: Badlands Tactical Training Facility | Ready, Aim, Fire!

FYI, the purpose of this thread was not to get into an argument with y'all over the validity of the rationale behind the Second Amendment -- I was just stating the role I want this rifle to fill (knowing that would be the first thing everyone would ask if I didn't say so). I'm not looking for anyone's opinion on my political beliefs... just on gear selection. However, I have to say I am a bit taken aback to see so many people on a gun forum take umbrage with the idea of owning a gun for non-sporting purposes, and to be so willing to concede that whole rationale to the antis. It is especially strange to see that viewpoint so strongly represented on a sniper forum. If you feel that way so strongly that you don't want to give me gear advice, that's fine, but I promise you will not accomplish anything by giving me a lecture on how wrong I am for adhering to the rationale behind the 2A. You are just plain barking up the wrong tree on that one.

The claim of non-tolerance of "mall ninjas," posers, etc. is particularly strange with some of the views expressed here... what exactly would you would call someone who has a fancy custom long range rig, optimized for engaging unknown distance targets in field conditions, and attends events called "tactical matches," yet claims to only be interested in these things for sporting purposes and shudders at the notion of human targets?
 
Home defense is one thing, but you act like purposing a rifle for "human targets" at long range is such a casual thing to do on an online forum...

It's not worth getting into politics or anything else over it, and it doesn't seem like anyone is even arguing the 2nd here like you are making it out to be, it is simply being pointed out that we are on a public forum and maybe some things are better left unsaid. If you don't care, or you just wanted everyone to know that you mean business, then so be it.
 
Nailedit said:
Home defense is one thing, but you act like purposing a rifle for "human targets" at long range is such a casual thing to do on an online forum...

It's not worth getting into politics or anything else over it, and it doesn't seem like anyone is even arguing the 2nd here like you are making it out to be, it is simply being pointed out that we are on a public forum and maybe some things are better left unsaid. If you don't care, or you just wanted everyone to know that you mean business, then so be it.
Click to expand...

Not arguing the 2nd? I said I wanted the rifle mainly for Second Amendment purposes, and several people reacted like I said I wanted it for shooting toddlers at playground distances or some shit.

Yes, it's a public forum... what's your point? I still don't see who you folks are so worried about reading this kind of discussion. If you mean antis, believe me, they are not impressed when you coyly say that your 1200 yard effective precision rifle is for sporting use only. Honestly, some of you are coming across like PC bed wetters. Yes, I want a rifle that is capable of dropping someone out to 1200 yards. If you can't imagine any situation in which you might ever want to do something like this, I suggest reading some history. You don't have to go back very far to find a situation in which some well-placed hollow points would have made things turn out decidedly for the better, and for which there would have been ample justification for shooting the evil bastards.
 
image.jpg
 
You're never going to shoot a human at 1200 yards...unless some ridiculous Red Dawn shit is going on...and even then I doubt it...

Here's a general rule of thumb (and like all rules, there are exceptions). AR's are battle/sporting/fun rifles. They're for dumping a lot of lead really fast/engaging multiple targets. Bolt actions are for precision. If you want to build skills out to 1200 yards then invest in a good bolt action setup and invest in good training.

Can you build a really frigging accurate semi-auto? Sure. But if you want that needle in a haystack accuracy out to extreme ranges, then you'll prolly want a bolt action.

Oh and don't worry about shooting people...or think about it...it's an evil you never want to experience.
 
Just a new guy. But I SUCK with my large frame gas guns. SUCK. I thought it'd just be like a big 556 AR. NOPE! Don't get me wrong, they are FUN! But yeah, won't be my first choice for a gunfight until I get lots and lots more training and trigger time.

Bolt guns are much more forgiving and you will be able to reach out farther, faster, and I feel that it takes less time and practice to become passably "good" at. (I'm still nowhere that could be considered "good," but I suck LESS with it than the semi's)

But honestly, the real answer is get both and shoot both. 'MERICA!
 
Am new here. New like couple of minutes ago. I decided to register after reading this thread. I like the way the members here conduct themselves. their views on what's an appropriate discussion. Refreshing,


p.s I was hesitant to join . Because of the name forum. Imagine sniper wannabes. happy and relieved my assumption was wrong.
 
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While I feel that 1200m is well outside the realm of a 223 AR, building a very accurate 600-800m gun can be accomplished around $1k (w/o optics). Look around your area for hi power service rifle matches, you will learn a ton about marksmanship with a semi auto. Going beyond that distance on the average working mans salary will most likely leave you in bolt gun and hot 30 cal territory, but starting in service rifle is probably the cheapest and easiest way to build the foundation for your goal.
 
1. they're different animals; recoil, trigger, etc.
2. if you don't have a bolt gun, start with a $400 bolt gun in .308 and train with it. sell it later for $250 if you don't want it anymore
3. you will likely spend much less on a bolt gun to start than a gas gun/AR10 that runs reliably. they are finicky compared to their 5.56 counterparts
4. take a class on long range shooting with your bolt gun before making any purchases past the gun, rear bag, scope, rings (and cleaning supplies)
 
I don't do anything resembling "sniper" type actions. At nearly 75, it is all I can do to lug my equipment from the car to the firing point on the range. Even walking the100 yards out to the targets is a chore, never mind the walk back. When shooting at 200 I take the golf cart, shared with other geezers, out and back. Longer ranges are on steel and a good spotting scope helps me keep score.
The most fun I have these days is when I decide to do a 22 day. The gun club has a 50 yard 22 gallery range with everything from 7 yard dueling trees for the pistols to 50 yard squirrel swingers and a few plate racks with ropes to reset the targets. I leave the $7000 rifles at home, take a few hand guns and an SR-15-22 with a red dot on it along with a little old Savage 17 hmr with a cheap as 3x9 scope on it for the squirts. Fun to pick which eye I will hit on the sitting up squirt.
I can shoot till I am worn out, sweep up the brass and shovel it into the bucket and I'm on the way home after a burger and a soda at the snack bar with less money spent than 2 boxes of 6.5x47 Lapua, including gas for the 160 mile round trip.
Chatting with other shooters during the 15 minute break between 15 minute hot sessions and never has a 2A discussion broken out. Same on the trap line for years, same at the handgun silhouette shoots. My spotter at the silhouette shoots was a marine sniper and we talked a little bit about that. We had been shooting together for about a year before I ever found out. I learned a lot from him about shooting as he was a great coach but reluctant to talk about his experience. Mostly he just said it was unpleasant and not the bunch of fun you would think it to be. We would take our unlimited guns and have contests where we would head shoot the turkeys at 150m with open sighted hand guns, $5 a man into a pot, only head hits counted and open to all comers. He won a lot of pots.
I have had the good fortune to live in states where the 2A is supported and thus not a big issue. I only see 2A discussions on the internet and after years and years of spending time in bars, I have learned that politics and religion should be avoided if civilized discourse is to be maintained. Leave that shit to the barber chair.
 
I think if you want to learn to shoot better start with the bolt. If you just want to have fun, go with the gas gun.
 
From a fat gas owner along with a fleet of bolt guns, what looks cool to me is a properly centered up first round hit at distance. The rest is just fluff.
 
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A bolt gun, as for fundamentals, is like a gas gun but with training wheels. if you want to learn to ride correctly then use the training wheels and get the basics down. if you think you are king shit and just want to jump in head first then get a gas gun. but for 1200 and "human", i suggest the Omen 300 win mag AR.shes a bad bitch.

i get the 2A point of your post and we all have guns and train for what if moments. what if i get robbed while walking down the street? what if someone breaks into my house? unless you are LE or Mil then your chances of shooting a human target at 1200 yards, hell past 50 yards is pretty much unrealistic. not saying there isnt a reason or two that could come up but i doubt it ever will. you talk about going back to history and yet i will say the same to you as to why the Japanese never invaded the US. anything past training for protection is training for murder. I can guarantee there is not a court in the US that would say a shot at 1200 is justified. that is 1200 yards of protection. The reason everyone spoke up about your post is because it comes across as hostile and training to kill people. that is the red flag and just off of this post can get you investigated for domestic terrorism. that is a bit extreme but that doesnt mean it cant or wont happen. if you truly want to learn to shoot "human targets" out to 1200 then join the military, go to sniper school and do it.
 
I've served in combat, been shot at, and fired shots in anger. This is experience and knowledge I could have probably lived my entire life without, and well, too. But that was not the case, and I think the experience and knowledge, once gleaned, is not any kind of a waste.

Being able to hit 2MOA at 1Kyd and beyond is a challenge. It is worthy of a respectable marksman and their equipment (notice I didn't say 'his', the 2A applies to all sane individuals).

But for 2A to work for me, I prefer it to be used in a defensive posture; and shooting 1200yd at some human individual is not a defensive act, it's pure offense. As in, unless they are putting successful suppressing fire on my pos, they are not posing a direct threat. This, unless they are spotting on me for artillery, and that puts us within an entirely different ballgame.

Skipping the bolt gun and going directly to SA, do not pass 'GO', etc.? Sure, why not? I carried the M-14 in my war, and that mother could shoot. These days, a well built and configured AR could shoot rings around my M-14 of that time. So again, I say, 'Why not?".

Greg
 
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