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Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

J

jeffm

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 17, 2001
238
2
West Virginia
A 22 rifle based on the 700 or a model 10. All parts possible to be interchangeable with the classic rifles but in a repeating 22 with 5 and 10 round mags. Just imagine the incredible rifles you could build off of these rifles. There is really no reason it should cost more than a 700 or model 10 of a center fire caliber.
Could we talk them into building it?
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

Good luck.
First off few people will spend $500 for a CZ over a Savage in 22LR. Most folks simply "can't see it". How big of a market do you think there will be for a Remington 700 22LR that costs...say...$750, that still won't outshoot an Anschutz? If Remington made a rifle that would outshoot an entry level Annie it would cost....eh...$1200 minimum and maybe not even that cheap.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

How much does an entry level anschutz cost? How well will it shoot? I might be interested in one. I want something more than my savage or my 452, but I have no Idea what it would be. I don't want to spent 1800+ on a cooper. I would spend a grand if the rifle really is superior to my 452.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

You can get an 64MPR for around $1200...and if you feed it correct ammo it WILL outshoot the CZ, no question. It probably won't outshoot a Savage though, I hear they won teh Olympics this year(toungue in cheek). Now if you don't have to have a repeater the 1903 JR was on sale at Champion sShooters or Chamions Choice but I think they are all out of stock now...I can't find one. The 1416 is cheaper than a 64MPR, but THose I know that have them have not been impressed, they are under a grand if you shop around. Of course you can't go wrong looking on Gunbroker.
I can't stress enough the fact that you will have to shoot really good ammo in these guns, they are european guns, they like european ammo, the $10 a box kind. They will outshoot all but teh super customs...and often...they will outshoot them all.
I personally witnessed a 1903Jr beat a custom Cooper in one of the toughest competitions you will see anywhere for 22 rimfires. They both broke the match score record but the 1903 edged out the Cooper in the shootoffs.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't want to spent 1800+ on a cooper.</div></div>

I hear that.
grin.gif


But if you want accuracy, you will have to pay.
Start with a decent bolt action rifle. ($400 more or less)
Pillar the action, bed the action (do it yourself $20)
Order and install a match grade barrel.(another $400)
Order and install a decent adjustable trigger. ($100-$200)
Spend a month testing ammo and shimming ($200) to determine whether
the barrel responds to being free floated or bedded.
If needed bed the barrel. For practice shoot CCI SV at 6 cents a round.
For competition, plan on 30 plus cents a round 22lr ammo.

Add up all the time and costs involved, and you see why
Annies, Kimbers and Coopers are so expensive.


 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jaia</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't want to spent 1800+ on a cooper.</div></div>

I hear that.
grin.gif


But if you want accuracy, you will have to pay.
Start with a decent bolt action rifle. ($400 more or less)
Pillar the action, bed the action (do it yourself $20)
Order and install a match grade barrel.(another $400)
Order and install a decent adjustable trigger. ($100-$200)
Spend a month testing ammo and shimming ($200) to determine whether
the barrel responds to being free floated or bedded.
If needed bed the barrel. For practice shoot CCI SV at 6 cents a round.
For competition, plan on 30 plus cents a round 22lr ammo.

Add up all the time and costs involved, and you see why
Annies, Kimbers and Coopers are so expensive.
</div></div>

Most illustrative post on 22 rimfires I have seen in a while.^^^^ Excellent. This is exactly what people need to know when they see that $300 rifle as a bargain. False economy if you are thinking you will MAKE it shoot. Oh you can make it better. In the end you will have ~$1000-$1200 in time and money in a rig that isn't worth a fourth of what you invested. You will now have to insist that is the best shooting rig in the land because....if it isn't you look kinda silly.

You know how I know? Yep I have spent good money after bad, chasing rimfire unicorns.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

Then, even after all the expense of building and tuning the rifle,
purchasing quality bench equipment and learning to use it.
Practice ain't cheap, but the results are gratifying.
smile.gif

 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

The information above reinforces me wanting a 700 or model 10 in 22. If they could be purchased for the price of a 700 adl,or a model 10 sporter, I could build a simi custom for the price of the anne.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:



They are not going to make a Model 10 or a 700 in 22 for anywhere near the price of a plain Jane Savage or ADL Remmy.

If they did you would spend more than the price of an Anschutz customizing.

In the end the likelihood of it outshooting the Annie would be slim to none.

You did hear me say I saw a kid's 1903 Annie whoop a custom Cooper right?

The false economy has already been illustrated.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

"They are not going to make a Model 10 or a 700 in 22 for anywhere near the price of a plain Jane Savage or ADL Remmy."

Why couldn't they?
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

Its a little over budget, but you already opened the door by saying "build."

Find a Remington 40XB which is built on a M700 footprint and interchangable for stocks, triggers and scope bases. Then send it to Black Ops for thier repeater makeover and add your stock of choice.

Check out the "Stepping up to the plate" thread.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"They are not going to make a Model 10 or a 700 in 22 for anywhere near the price of a plain Jane Savage or ADL Remmy."

Why couldn't they?
</div></div>

I am starting to wonder if you started this thread just to vent, argue or what...

Lets start with the Savage:

I just bought a brand new Stevens 200(Savage 10) for $300. Now if it was simple and easy and they could bring it in for $300, why would they have a Canadian company importing their rimfires? They already hold a lion's share of the rimfire market, without any of their rimfires coming one whit within the accuracy of an Anschutz. If they could produce the 10 in a rimfire, at the cost of what they are importing THEY WOULD.
The point you seem to be missing is that even if they DID do what you wanted them to they might not beat out Anschutz in the eventual high end offerings. They seem to have grasped that even though some of the general populace can't comprehend those concepts.
Remington? They have had their go at the rimfire market. There simply aren't enough people willing to spend what it costs Remington to produce a mid priced rimfire. They have taken their whack at that market, why develop yet another rifle that the masses don't purchase? The fact is teh europeans can produce them cheaper and better than Remington can, and that is why the CZ is so popular. If Remington produced a model to compete with the CZ in fit, function and accuracy it would cost you at least $650 if not more. Remington has produced those rifles and when they did they got their asses creamed by european rifles in the olympics.
If markets were driven completely by fanboys and drivel from internet forums then I am sure things would be different.

If you really want the complete and total answer then Call Savage and Remington and ask them.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

I started this thread because I am sick of the current lineup of 22’s. I had a 504 Remington; imho it was a total compromise. It had a shitty trigger that if adjusted any were near what I would consider nice, closing the bolt hard would fire the gun. There was no aftermarket replacement. The barrel twist was like 1/14. It shot high end ammo well, but my CZ out shot it with anything I could afford to shoot a lot of. It also had a strange shape inside the stock that made it extremely difficult to do any bedding.
The bolt handle kept working lose and dented the stock. I believe that If Remington had build a decent rifle, say something based on the 700, you could put a decent trigger on it, change the barrel, or bed it. I think it would have been a success. That’s my point.
The CZ and Savage require pulling the trigger to remove the bolt, so no matter what you do with the trigger, there is till a bunch of over travel. I like a crisp trigger with little take-up and over travel. You just don’t have the ability to customize these rifles like you can a 700 or even a 10. It’s like the 22 designers think a 22 is some lesser breed of rifle that does not need to be as robust as a “real” rifle.
Ricos is correct, the 40X is what I am wishing for, but for now it is a lot out of my budget. I just wish Remington would give be something cheaper to work with.
I didn’t expect any arguments when I purposed 22’s build like full tilt rifles. Sorry if the concept annoyed anyone.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

You reference the 504, good example. I have heard many stories of crappy 504's and they weren't cheap. If you exterpolate what they cost then a 700 in 22 would likely command about $750 on a good day, for a "donor" which is what one looks for when a build is anticipated. An ADL from Dicks sporting goods is a fair bargain for a donor. Making a 700 repeater in 22 would be a tad more complicated than a run of the mill ADL.

If you like a crisp trigger with little overtravel get a Rifle Basix for your CZ. I had one on mine and it was as good as any ceterfire trigger I own...and I own some exceptional ones. There are options for the CZ and I built mine to the nines and it still wouldn't outshoot an Annie though I had nearly Annie money in the thing. I was about to put a Krieger barrel on it when I decided it was just another gamble in my quest to make my CZ perform miracles. I am a gambler and I play every kind of poker there is but I know when the pot odds are against me. I cut my losses with the CZ and bought an Annie. My scores went up and I am vvery pleased with my choice. In the long run I came out financially so I did get lucky.
In a sense 22's don't need to be robust except to a point. There are some who believe with a 22 it is all in the barrel and the chamber, the rest of the shit doesn't matter. Litterally believeing with the right barrel and chamber and ammo in a vise you could whack it with a tap hammer and finishing nail and it would perform. I can tell you this, there are one hell of a pile of differnt reamers for 22LR probably more than any other single cartridge. That has to mean something.

Not annoyed, just curious whether you were catching what I am throwing
smile.gif
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

Ask <span style="font-style: italic">them</span>. Not being glib, but sometimes it's best to go directly to the source for info.

As above, I don't see a lot of motivation/market support, especially in leaner times such as these.

Greg
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

Maybe I'm off but I always thought rem 541's were the only compromise before going 40X's. I've seen them listed here and in pawn shops. I'm guessing manf. won't make because they(manf.) want 500+ percent return on every dollar.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

There's another thread around here about this one:

Ravage Rimfire

I'm not sure how much they are, but even if Remington made the same for $1200, this would out shoot it I bet. You could also find a 40X, let BlackOps do their mag conversion and put on your barrel of choice. I'm just adding this, if BlackOps opts to make a mag conversion for a 700 SA it might be easier to build one.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

E-mail and phone messages sent to Savage and Remington. I won't hold my breath. Thanks everyone for the input.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

Face it, the market isn't in quality 22s, its in tacti cool rifles such as the Ruger 10-22.

The CMP Rimfire Sporter & NRA's Light rifle did open up the market for higher (not highest) grade 22s, and thats where CZ jumped in. Hard to beat a 452 in these matches.

But for 40X, Win 52s 'n such, there is no market, H&R made a good run with their 5200 (Model 52 Clones) but stopped production after the military stopped buying them.

Such rifles aren't allowed by rules in CMP/NRA Rimfire sporter events so that leaves NRA Small Bore and ISU shooting.

Such mid grade 22s wont compete with the Annies, so where is the market.

Gun makers are in the business of making money arn't they.

Don't know if they can, but if Remington wanted to really be competitive in the rim fire market, they'd have to come up with something to compete with the Ruger 10/22.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

remington still does make the .22lr 40x, check out the custom shop on the remington website. it is pricey though....

http://remingtoncustom.com/Rimfire_40xbbr.aspx

they had a nice product in the model 5 a few years back - a great rifle for the price, but it has gone away.

now they have the marlin actions.


doubt it if savage will retool to make something that will distract them away from all the money they are making on the "pipe actioned" mkii


for the 700 type actions there are a few "custom" made ones produced by stiller, black ops, and few others, but they cater to what is a niche market.

it's always good to ask a manufacturer or give input on a product, but in todays "big business" the bottom line is usually the deciding factor. if rem or savage did do what you propose, i'm sure they would sell (if they can keep it under 600.00) but they can sell more mkii's and xt's for the same amount of investment and a better return on their $.

probably the same reason you don't see as many ruger 77/22's as mkii's.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

I have a Rem 541 S,which is the sporter barrel... If i do my part. It will shoot dime size 10 rd groups at 50 yds...

I think is was made around 1980.... I paid $750 for it 10 years ago. But it looks brand new... Just about flawless, so i had to pay the big bucks for it....

Anyone looking for a great 22, i highly recommend the 541...

The funny thing is it shoots the old fed grey box ammo the best.. Yes i hve tried alot of high$$ ammo... But cheap federal is what it loves...
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

Like some other posts above, I have been down this path. I can say I made many mistakes in my quest to own a nice bolt action 22 rifle. Here is my story. I hope someone else will be able to use this to avoid some of the mistakes I made.

When I started several years ago I recognized that the Annies and Coopers were at the top of the heap. But - they were just so darn expensive. So I bought a 77/22 and I worked on it - well to be more accurate I paid my gunsmith to work on it. Trigger tuning, new barrel... etc. etc. Of course looking back this was all costing me money. But I did not notice it as much since it leaked out over time. In the end the 77/22 was better than what I started with but not up to the Annie/Cooper level. I was disappointed. so I sold the rifle - at a loss of course.

Then I bought a 504. I knew the barrels were questionable but Lilja offered a barrel for the 504 - how could I go wrong? So in addition to the rifle I bought the Lilja barrel and sent it to my gunsmith. Again trigger work, bedding, new barrel. All leaking money out of my wallet. But in the end still not up there with an Annie or Cooper. So another rifle down the road at a big loss.

Then I finally opend my wallet and bought a new Cooper JSR. Total satisfaction. No time or money messing with the rifle.

I have also made similar mistakes with my centerfire rifles, but I think you get the point.

So here is where I am on this topic. Buying middle of the road rifles and tuning them does not work well for me. Now if I want something nice I just wait - save my money and pay up.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fngmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's another thread around here about this one:

Ravage Rimfire

I'm not sure how much they are, but even if Remington made the same for $1200, this would out shoot it I bet. You could also find a 40X, let BlackOps do their mag conversion and put on your barrel of choice. I'm just adding this, if BlackOps opts to make a mag conversion for a 700 SA it might be easier to build one. </div></div>


HHhhhmmmm. You guys have me thinking about this. Standby....
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

FNGMIKE brings up something that is overlooked, and the market has a demand.

instead of savage or remington or whomever coming out with a receiver, why not another entity come out with would be more or less a conversion kit for an already existing 700SA, savage 10, winc 70, receiver.

bottom metal, bolt (maybe just the bolt face), and barrel will basically be the only things to worry about.

i would think the cost of a "conversion" should be less than a full on complete build.

this conversation comes up every few months, too bad big green or the indian aren't listening.

 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

The real problem is getting a good stock for a 22lr. There are actions with are available but few stocks. Also there are options for rifles right now which aren't bad but people don't want to pay the 1500 - 2500 they cost. A good rimfire is going to cost as much as a good center fire.

Someone needs to come out with good stocks for:

54.18 Anschutz repeater
Turbo rimfire sporter
Falcon rimfire repeater
X10 rimfire repeater
ULA 22lr
Cooper 57m

Even a Kimber or 504 could work if rebarreled.

A 40x repeater doesn't have the problem of no stocks so it solves the chicken and egg problem.


 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

yeah i was trying to tie that into my previous post. with a 700sa, sav10, win70 "converted" receiver, there are oodles of stocks that can be easily bolted up in the garage at various price points.

although there is the tacticool stock and such, it's still hard for me to phathom why not more stock manufacturers are not answering the call for sensible replacement rimfire stocks - especially with the popularity of rimfires as they are today.

even choate should be able to put out an acceptable rimfire stock for a reasonable price tht "masses" can afford, based off there tactical or varmint styled stocks.

heres a million dollar idea for someone:

1) make an adapter that a typical savage MKII (for example) rests / bolts into the top, being inletted for that particular receiver.

2) the bottom of the adapter has bolt spacings that are either fixed or slides in a channel to bolt to an available stock with bolt spacings for the 700, sav 10, winc 70, with the bottom of the adapter having the inletting signature for a 700, sav 10, or winc 70 stock.

3) could be as simple as making the mould and pouring the syn. material, or milling the adapter out of aluminum (takes care of bedding for the most part) or both with the aluminum being the "premium" adapter.

would work like the adapter that allows a 1/2" ratchet drive wrench to use 3/8" sockets.
 
Re: Would it do any good to ask Rem. or Sav. to build:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackOps Tech</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fngmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's another thread around here about this one:

Ravage Rimfire

I'm not sure how much they are, but even if Remington made the same for $1200, this would out shoot it I bet. You could also find a 40X, let BlackOps do their mag conversion and put on your barrel of choice. I'm just adding this, if BlackOps opts to make a mag conversion for a 700 SA it might be easier to build one. </div></div>


HHhhhmmmm. You guys have me thinking about this. Standby.... </div></div>

Will you all quiet down and let the man THINK!!!
 
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