Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

[dbooksta]

Suppose the following products were brought to market:
- 150gr .223 bullet, stable at subsonic velocity out of 1/9" twist.
- 300gr .308 bullet, stable at subsonic velocity out of 1/10" twist.

Both capable of 1MOA.

Would you want to buy either of these bullets (unloaded)? If so, how many? How much would you be willing to pay per bullet?

How many do you think would sell per year nationwide amongst civilians if they were priced at $1/each.

 

[bohem]

Re: Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

Potentially, but certainly not at $1/each.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbooksta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
- 150gr .223 bullet, stable at subsonic velocity out of 1/9" twist.
- 300gr .308 bullet, stable at subsonic velocity out of 1/10" twist.

Both capable of 1MOA. </div></div>
What? Stable at those speeds and twist rates? You sure about that!!??

 

[dbooksta]

Re: Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

Yes -- of course these would be largely tungsten core to make that possible.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

Aside from penetrating barriers, the heavier bullet offers little over lighter ones. Without expansion or tumbling, there is no energy transfer in soft targets, so higher terminal energy is irrelevant if it just punches a tiny hole. Further, trajectory changes very little for different weights of the same style bullet, at subsonic velocities. Compare the trajectories of different weight SMK and RN bullets at subsonic velocities in JBM.

For it to be worth while, it will need to offer good expansion on soft targets. With that weight, it should be possible to make something that expands reliably at subsonic velocities.

I think a better option would be lighter segmented HP, copper washed bullets. Basically, a larger versions of CCI's new .22LR subsonic HP bullet. They would be cheap, effective and usable in regular twist barrels. You would sell a ton of those.

 

[Guest]

Re: Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbooksta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Would you want to buy either of these bullets (unloaded)?
</div></div>

Depending on what range your shooting, I'd guess the 223 would need a 6 twist and the 30 cal a 6 twist. But, my first question would be why these over my 44 rem mag throwing 300gr subs now?

A 223 or 308 sub is ok, but if your after more than playtime, a 44, 45/70 or 12 gauge slug threw a can will seal the deal everytime. The 45/70 is just about as good as it gets in the long run, everything same same.

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think a better option would be lighter segmented HP, copper washed bullets. Basically, a larger versions of CCI's new .22LR subsonic HP bullet. They would be cheap, effective and usable in regular twist barrels. You would sell a ton of those. </div></div>

+1

 

[dbooksta]

Re: Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

I should point out that these would be compressed tungsten core bullets, so they would most likely be tipped to open and dump all energy quickly into targets at subsonic speeds, similar to current compressed powder core hunting bullets (which are often advertised as "frangible" or "non-toxic").

The reason for going heavy subsonic in smaller calibers is primarily for use with suppressors. Larger-bore suppressors are less effective -- and less common. Suppressed subsonic .338 and smaller diameter is so quiet that you pretty much only hear the firing pin and then the target impact.

The problem with lead-core subsonic is that you're restricted to relatively light bullets to stay stable in regular barrels. In contrast, with these dense subsonic bullets we'd be talking about something with the same energy as a .357 magnum in .223 and a .44 magnum in .308, but with much better ballistics and accuracy, and potentially very quiet. (Granted, at subsonic speeds you're still not going to be shooting these past 300 yards at best.)

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

The tip would need to be large and blunt for it to work. I would shoot a 110 VMAX over a 180 RN as a subsonic if it still blew up at subsonic speeds. The 40 gr subsonic HP is a far more effective killer than the 60 gr. SSS in a .22

Again, not seeing what the advantage the higher weight gives, especially if its disintegrating. Guys aren't going to use it on game they eat if the meat is full of tungsten powder. Lighter bullets give you nearly the same trajectory and would be effective if they were also made of compressed powder and were frangible. And most importantly: they would be cheaper than something made from exotic materials.


<span style="font-style: italic">JBM, 300 yard trajectories, 1030 fps, 50 yard zero, 10 MPH wind

.308 155 AMAX: -126" (drop) 10.2" (wind)
.308 208 AMAX: -122" (drop) 6.8" (wind)

.308 168 SMK: -126" (drop) 9.9" (wind)
.308 175 SMK: -124" (drop) 8.9" (wind)
.308 190 SMK: -123" (drop) 8.1" (wind)
.308 220 SMK: -122" (drop) 7.1" (wind)
.308 240 SMK: -121" (drop) 6.6" (wind)

.308 150 HRN: -146" (drop) 20.0" (wind)
.308 180 HRN: -138" (drop) 19.4" (wind)
.308 220 HRN: -134" (drop) 15.8" (wind)

.338 300 SMK: -120" (drop) 5.8" (wind)
</span>

The effect of the higher BCs of heavy bullets is highly overrated at subsonic velocities.

 

[bohem]

Re: Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbooksta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should point out that these would be compressed tungsten core bullets, so they would most likely be tipped to open and dump all energy quickly into targets at subsonic speeds, similar to current compressed powder core hunting bullets (which are often advertised as "frangible" or "non-toxic").

The reason for going heavy subsonic in smaller calibers is primarily for use with suppressors. Larger-bore suppressors are less effective -- and less common. Suppressed subsonic .338 and smaller diameter is so quiet that you pretty much only hear the firing pin and then the target impact.

The problem with lead-core subsonic is that you're restricted to relatively light bullets to stay stable in regular barrels. In contrast, with these dense subsonic bullets we'd be talking about something with the same energy as a .357 magnum in .223 and a .44 magnum in .308, but with much better ballistics and accuracy, and potentially very quiet. (Granted, at subsonic speeds you're still not going to be shooting these past 300 yards at best.) </div></div>

I've done quite a bit of subsonic rounds and here's some things that I have found contradictory to your statements.

A large bore (50cal) suppressor used on a 44 cal wildcat, throwing 460gr hard cast bullets is:

1) Quiet enough that you hear the firing pin click and then the bullet flying downrange as a 'ffffffffffffT" adn then the impact is "WHAP"

2) Using that same can (it's a Form 1 homebuilt designed to suppress a 50-120 case) handles 22LR subsonic rounds where the action from the 10/22 is by far the loudest thing operating.

3) My ~1:10tw MN91/30 will stabilize cast bullets up to 220gr-230gr (alloy dependent) at subsonic speeds.

4) Subsonic speeds with 100gr 22 bullets are stable in a 1:9tw rifle

5) The hard cast 460gr 44 caliber rifle is a ballistic twin to a 1oz 12ga slug at 1050fps. It currently has 7/7 DRT kills on deer, clearly it's effective.

All of these bullets cost around a nickel each. The big bore suppressor is exceptionally effective. It may/may not be more efficient, but it's clearly not ineffective.

If you make them, I'm sure someone will buy it (they probably won't be the rousing success you're hoping for though), but the experiments that my dad and I have done demonstrate several large inconsistencies with your statements above.

Contrary to popular belief, you can have a Form 1 suppressor made for you under some easily achieved conditions. I won't go into them here, but it's not hard. This makes big bore suppressors much easier to get ahold of.

 

[dbooksta]

Re: Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

Well first of all let me say that sounds like a suppressor I would like to buy/build! Is it based on any public designs, or would you be willing to share the design?

Cast lead 220gr .30" bullets are just at the edge of stability coming subsonic out of a 1/10" twist. Note that a lot of us with expensive factory suppressors are hesitant to shoot unjacketed or marginally-stable bullets through them.

And of course lead bullets will always be a lot cheaper than bullets made with copper or tungsten!

 

[bohem]

Re: Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

The internals on this iteration are in the final stages of testing and they're unlike anything else we've found on the market, so before I release the baffle configuration I have to see what my dad wants to do with them. He's talked about getting an SOT for some time to produce them, we'll see what he wants first.

However, one of the earlier iterations that's still very effective I don't mind giving to you. Send me a PM, I'll send you a sketch. Depending where you are in PA, you can meet me for a range day sometime and take a look at the heavy 44 cal rounds we're using.

The unjacketed bullets in a factory can is somewhat of a myth, if you use a gas check and hard lead (30+ HBn) they don't have problems. The dirtiest ammo I've seen in them is actually the 60gr SSS ammo in 22LR, but anyone with a 22LR can knows just how gunky they get.

The way I approached stability testing was to take the can off and shoot the rounds over a chrono and into a target at 25-50y to check for keyholing. Once I found a consistently subsonic round with no keyholes I ran with it. I didn't have a stability calculator and in the end, it matters what the performance says, not what the calculator says. I definitely advocate that anyone working SS ammo checks it without the suppressor attached FIRST.

The other nice thing about a big bore suppressor on smaller diam rounds is that you get a little "wiggle" room (literally) around the bullet if you decide to shoot marginal loads with it. Not something I want to rely upon, but it is there.

It's an interesting idea to use a compressed W powder core, the cost is just prohibitive to me for a small boost in performance. A large part of the reason I like to shoot cast lead bullets is because of the cost, subsonic rounds are just a lot more polite and easy to deal with for everyone around me.

 

[ouachita76]

Re: Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

where can one find 300 grain bullets for a 308?

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Re: Would you buy heavy subsonic bullets?

$1 per bullet?? Sure, no problem. Just put the name Barnes on them. Shooters follow Barnes around like sheep. They would easily sell. You just need to find out how much of that dollar Barnes wants. Tom.