WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

[Tomekeuro85]

So as most poeple know ive been battling failure groups with my Crusader for a few weeks to no avail. I went out again today with a recommended load from George at GAP. 44.5 Varget with 2.82 oal and 168 SMK. As always, .75" groups average.

However, I got bored and moved to 300 yards. It only took 20 clicks of .125 moa each on my Nightforce benchrest to get it to zero at 300.

Adjustment is .125 MOA. Therefore 2.5" high at 100 was zero at 300. To me this does not sound right at all since I had to move up my last .308 like 6" to hit 300.

I dont even know whats going on anymore. Havent measured my 300yd groups but they were something like 2"ish. One was around 1".

Im totally lost at this point.

 

[Natty Bumpo]

Re: WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

Have you tried shooting it at 100 yards after moving the reticle 2.5 MOA (20 clicks) to see if point of impact changes by ~2.5 inches on your 100 yard target? Maybe they're not 1/8MOA clicks after all.

For a 1/4 MOA turret, 20 clicks (5 moa)sounds more reasonable for a 300 yard come up in .308 Win.

 

[Sig685]

Re: WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tomekeuro85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So as most poeple know ive been battling failure groups with my Crusader for a few weeks to no avail. I went out again today with a recommended load from George at GAP. 44.5 Varget with 2.82 oal and 168 SMK. As always, .75" groups average.

However, I got bored and moved to 300 yards. It only took 20 clicks of .125 moa each on my Nightforce benchrest to get it to zero at 300.

Adjustment is .125 MOA. Therefore 2.5" high at 100 was zero at 300. To me this does not sound right at all since I had to move up my last .308 like 6" to hit 300.

I dont even know whats going on anymore. Havent measured my 300yd groups but they were something like 2"ish. One was around 1".

Im totally lost at this point. </div></div>

So, 2.5 inches at 100 yards is 7.5 inches at 300 yards. What's your point?

 

[Tomekeuro85]

Re: WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

now that ive measured them, apparently theyve gotten a little bit smaller. Still not as good as they should be, or as good as they were with my gamekings. Big targets are all 300. small targets are 100

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

Why do you think its the rifle?

Why do you think it the ammo?

How good of a shot are you?

Next, 1 MOA is the standard, all your groups look just fine to me for a tactical rifle.

If you wanted a benchrest gun, go get one.

John

 

[shadow4]

Re: WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

T, after you dialed in your Data for 300 yards, and started shooting for groups did you make any other adjustments? (what I mean is once you got your zero at 300 did you make any other adjustments to your scope between groups?)

Also one thing you might want to consider is how high do you have your Nightforce mounted. What is the sight height above the center line of the bore. What rings are you using? If you scope is mounted high it will make a difference, but not as much as you are seeing. I would make sure that your scope actually does adjust .125MOA though like said above.

Btw, your groups aren't bad. Looking at them though, it looks like they have more vertical than horizontal movement (talking mainly about the ones at 100yards). This is often caused by an inconsistent cheek weld, inconsistent breathing, OR inconsistent pressure on whatever you are using as a rear rest. Are you shooting from a bench? How are you holding the rifle? Is it free recoil? Are you dialing out all the Parallax? Just some things to think about.

Thanks for posting pictures this time though, this makes it easier to get an evaluation of whats going on. I think you are seeing other peoples groups that they post on this site and thinking that they shoot like that 100% of the time. Fact is most people are posting their best groups of the day and not showing the other 5-10 groups that they shot. If most people posted their whole sheet of paper and multiple target like what you've done theirs would look much like yours! Which still is not bad. That's good shooting.

 

[Tomekeuro85]

Re: WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shadow4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">T, after you dialed in your Data for 300 yards, and started shooting for groups did you make any other adjustments? (what I mean is once you got your zero at 300 did you make any other adjustments to your scope between groups?)

Also one thing you might want to consider is how high do you have your Nightforce mounted. What is the sight height above the center line of the bore. What rings are you using? If you scope is mounted high it will make a difference, but not as much as you are seeing. I would make sure that your scope actually does adjust .125MOA though like said above.

Btw, your groups aren't bad. Looking at them though, it looks like they have more vertical than horizontal movement (talking mainly about the ones at 100yards). This is often caused by an inconsistent cheek weld, inconsistent breathing, OR inconsistent pressure on whatever you are using as a rear rest. Are you shooting from a bench? How are you holding the rifle? Is it free recoil? Are you dialing out all the Parallax? Just some things to think about.

Thanks for posting pictures this time though, this makes it easier to get an evaluation of whats going on. I think you are seeing other peoples groups that they post on this site and thinking that they shoot like that 100% of the time. Fact is most people are posting their best groups of the day and not showing the other 5-10 groups that they shot. If most people posted their whole sheet of paper and multiple target like what you've done theirs would look much like yours! Which still is not bad. That's good shooting.</div></div>


I'm using a nightforce 8-32 benchrest with .125moa clicks. Mounted on the Crusader with Badger medium high rings (the lowest I could use before the objective hits the barrel)

I shot two groups and they were high right at 300 so i adjusted down and left, which is whey the two groups are in different locations.

I saw the vertical grouping as well, however it was just this time. I hvae like 4 other targets at home with 10 groups each and theres no other obvious vertical stringing.

I shoot from a sandbag resting the center of the stock on it. I also have a rear bag that i squeeze for adjustment with my non trigger hand, with the gun against my shoulder parallax is dialed out too.

I'm gonna buy some 175 matchkings and some 178 a-max's and see how those shoot because it doesnt seem to me that these groups are going to get any better with this load...

The whole reason im not happy is because i shot so well with my hunting loads. each group was in the .3" range at 100 so when everyone says these posted groups are fine, i disagree because I know the rifle can do better... Just need to figure out why and how

 

[Phylodog]

Re: WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tomekeuro85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The whole reason im not happy is because i shot so well with my hunting loads. each group was in the .3" range at 100 so when everyone says these posted groups are fine, i disagree because I know the rifle can do better... Just need to figure out why and how </div></div>

There aren't a lot of shooters who can go to the range on any given day and lay down consistent .3" groups. I have good days and bad and would venture to guess that I am in the majority. My last range trip I put down two 10 round groups and both measured near .4". I was having a good day that day. The two trips before I was barely getting groups under an inch. Same rifle, same ammo, same range, same shooter, different results. I'd shoot some more before becoming frustrated with what you're getting. As stated the groups you posted are fine, you might have your expectations set a little high.

 

[Tomekeuro85]

Re: WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> you might have your expectations set a little high.</div></div>

Perhaps thats possible? Am I just being overly picky? The reason I feel I should be getting better groups is becuase of the rifle.. A $5000 rifle setup, and GAP guarantees it to 3/8moa...

Does that guarantee mean consistent, or a once in a while 3/8?

My Savage I had shot almost as good as this when i found a good load. I would say that the $4000 price difference is questionable with only such a small difference. But perhpas at longer ranges is where the Crusader shines over a factory rifle...

Either way am I just overreacting? Would you guys be happy with a Crusader shooting .6 average when you know you can do better?

Maybe all those original groups were mostly chance.. I dont know...

 

[ewoaf]

Re: WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tomekeuro85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The whole reason im not happy is because i shot so well with my hunting loads. each group was in the .3" range at 100 so when everyone says these posted groups are fine, i disagree because I know the rifle can do better... Just need to figure out why and how </div></div>

There aren't a lot of shooters who can go to the range on any given day and lay down consistent .3" groups. I have good days and bad and would venture to guess that I am in the majority. My last range trip I put down two 10 round groups and both measured near .4". I was having a good day that day. The two trips before I was barely getting groups under an inch. Same rifle, same ammo, same range, same shooter, different results. I'd shoot some more before becoming frustrated with what you're getting. As stated the groups you posted are fine, you might have your expectations set a little high. </div></div>
^ that right there is good advice

 

[doc76251]

Re: WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

You really need to go back to basics.

Get yourself (make) a target where you have a defined aiming point that matches your reticle. If you have a fine crosshair I find diamonds to be the best. Then and most importantly NEVER shoot at what your aiming at. Drop or raise your groups a MOA or more. That way you don't blow out your aiming point..

Measuring ammo by OAL in a bolt gun does not lend itself to accuracy. Measure by OGIVE.

Play with your seating depth, THAT is what you use to "round out" your groups. Of course that only works if the powder charge is correct.

How many of your hunting loads have you shot? Have you shot them recently? Are they still that good? What is the ogive for those loads and what are their velocities? Can you match the velocity with the 168's?

FWIW: Looking at your 100 yd targets I'd say you have a breathing problem.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Tomekeuro85]

Re: WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You really need to go back to basics.

Get yourself (make) a target where you have a defined aiming point that matches your reticle. If you have a fine crosshair I find diamonds to be the best. Then and most importantly NEVER shoot at what your aiming at. Drop or raise your groups a MOA or more. That way you don't blow out your aiming point..

Measuring ammo by OAL in a bolt gun does not lend itself to accuracy. Measure by OGIVE.

Play with your seating depth, THAT is what you use to "round out" your groups. Of course that only works if the powder charge is correct.

How many of your hunting loads have you shot? Have you shot them recently? Are they still that good? What is the ogive for those loads and what are their velocities? Can you match the velocity with the 168's?

FWIW: Looking at your 100 yd targets I'd say you have a breathing problem.

Cheers,

Doc</div></div>


With my old hunting rounds I shot a whole sheet of those small targets i designed as seen above. That was 2 years ago. I went back to the range a few weeks ago with some leftover hunting rounds and got the same results.

I hold my breath when im about to shoot so I dont know if that would be a cause...

I need myself a kronograf.

 

[doc76251]

Re: WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

Holding your breath may be a factor. If you "pause" you are good, if you "hold" and get more than 5 - 7 seconds into it you need to start over. Your eyeballs operate off O2 and after about 7 seconds your eyes will start to play tricks.

If your gun is hot you may need to download the gun if the round is in there too long as the chamber is cooking the powder and the shot will hit low (faster).

Just some things to think about regarding the shooting aspect.

On loading, you really need to load to ogive length. I think the comparator is about $25 for the set. Even from the same box of boolets you will find variances in the ogive length. This roughly translates to changes in your seating depth which opens a whole new can of worms.

Last but not least, if you can't get the rifle to shoot to your expectations, sell it. If you don't have confidence in your gear it will NEVER work properly.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[shadow4]

Re: WTH is going on. Does this drop value sound right?

+1 on what was said above. Don't hold your breath. Pull the trigger at your natural respiratory pause.

Well, get some 175's, They shoot awesome in my GAP, better than the 168's for me but then again I never did any real load work with the 168's I was just threw together a load and went to the range when I used them. They still shot great.

Let us know how the 175's work our for you, and post some pics!

btw, if you take the vertical out of those groups it looks like most would be sub 1/2 MOA.