XM7 worries from the field.

Terry Cross

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Mar 15, 2003
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Plenty if XM7s getting issued and legit complaints surfacing.
Army dude tried to document a few things. Sig is dismissive and condescending.
Interesting read.

 
I believe that media officer for sig, Mr Saint John, is the same MSG Saint John formerly of group and then later cag, winner of several best ranger comps, and a bad, bad man to stand across a battlefield from.

This captain made a whole bunch of errors in his report: barrel length, weight etc., and honestly doesn't seem to understand much of what he is saying, (which is par for the course for anyone in the officer corps). If this scathing report was written by a CSM of a line battalion or larger unit, or a door kicker in the ops community, it would be more credible in my opinion.

I also couldn't help but laugh at the desired weight load of 55lbs. Get outta here with that bullshit. A full set of XL armor with green plates was right at 45lbs iirc. That's where the development should be done is finding an armor replacement that is about 10lbs and leave them with m4's for a few more years. Maybe then every single infantry vet with more than a few years in wouldn't be lining up for knee replacements and back surgeries in the decades following their service. The m4 worked great. The .223 was enough, (especially when you understand how many bullets are wasted to hit one enemy solder, (it's thousands)). I'm sure the rifles are better than the capt said and worse than the sig report says, but ultimately the bail out for sig if the rifle sucks will be the same bail out KAC used when they gave us those garbage M110 rifles: "we built the rifle the Army wanted, not what we wanted to give you".
 
Very interesting, and pretty direct hands on observance / experience. XM250 seemed like the best part of this program from the start and I hope Vortex implements the XM157 tech asap in their commercial stuff!

I’ve been interested to watch the XM7 and MRGG-A (public, I have no inside info) results roughly in parallel (XM seems to be about a year ahead). If SOCOM wanted the XM7 I’d guess they would have it already but from what I’ve seen they’re focused on 6 ARC and 6.5 Creed. From a civilian standpoint the proliferation of 6.5 Creed is hard to beat which is why I’m running a MRGG-A type setup this summer

ETA: In my opinion SOCOM should look at the 25 Creed because you can launch lighter higher BC bullets faster than the 6.5 and still use the AR10 platform. I can already see myself struggling to not build a 25 CM upper and I’ve not seen ammo on the shelf yet. Maybe real world results won’t be much different between the 6.5 and 25
 
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The effects on target for the round are a definite step up, esp. against armor. Sig's refusal to take constructive criticism and improve their product is disappointing.
-not referring to this particular article, but previous feedback Sig received much earlier in this rifle's development.
 
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The effects on target for the round are a definite step up, esp. against armor.

I have little doubt this is true.

However, it is my long and deeply held belief that effect on target is only significant if the user gets the weapon to the fight, and get the bullet to the target.

I have not read the article, and I'm going to take a wild guess:
-Weight/Soldiers load is the primary issue.
-The super spicy ammo in the super shitty Sig production guns are having problems far earlier than intended in life span
-Hit probability is still low due to a variety of factors (a) the Vortex widget isn't as good as advertised. b) the Sig prints shitty groups c) user training combined with a & b.)
 
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Jason St John is pretty legit. At least he definitely used to be.

I can see both sides. There is an undeniable "joe" factor that will apply abuse to a piece of equipment that no down select or operator testing can accurately proof. The more poorly trained the user, the more abuse that equipment is going to experience. Joes will cram as many rifles as they can in a tough box, a trained operator will carry his NODs, radio, and pistol in a well padded 1750. Some people call the SF E7 " the most highly paid rifleman in the US Army" as a derogatory term but that selective training and experience does get you something.

I remember the propaganda of "the massive rate of failures" of the M4 coming out in 2005'ish. Quotes from Rangers in the account of QRF'ing at Roberts Ridge. "I got off the helicopter as we were taking fire and returned fire with two rounds and my rifle jammed. I pulled out a cleaning rod I carried for just this issue and cleared the rifle...". I remember reading that in a article that was making the case for the 416. There was a flurry of that stuff for a year or two before fading away. I remember reading that and being amazed at how my experience with the M4 was nothing even remotely close.

I do agree that we need to develop the next generation of weapon systems. Every major state is innovating at a rapid pace. If we think we're just going to stick with the M4 for the next 20 years we're going to be in a state of panic one day and forced to whip out some serious garbage in a reactionary emergency. Right now is not a time to stick your head in the sand when it comes to keeping up with the Joneses. I won't say the current process and cost of how we do that is perfect but it's not like there's a long line of really good credible, privately well funded companies generating the perfect rifle ready to hand it to DOD for free. I really don't have an extreme opinion of SIG one way or the other that people on this site seem to. I don't own a single gun of theirs. But I think they need to iterate in order to develop. When you read St Johns comments, he's absolutely right. Even if we decide to move away from a large frame platform and cartridge and have to start over, DOD needs to learn that lesson. Like a lot of things, success comes from learning from failure.

I wouldn't condemn either side and I also wouldn't get your panties in a wad over teething issues and a series of iterative improvements.

As far as a BN CSM writing a white or information paper, LMAO. Ain't no line BN CSM writing a report. Dudes got 99 problems but he ain't writing papers. And if he did, guess who he would use to do it? A CPT. AKA the " MK 1 MOD III prod generator".
 
Check their bank accounts. No way Sig "won" all these contracts without someone getting paid-off.
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Jason St John is pretty legit. At least he definitely used to be.

I can see both sides. There is an undeniable "joe" factor that will apply abuse to a piece of equipment that no down select or operator testing can accurately proof. The more poorly trained the user, the more abuse that equipment is going to experience. Joes will cram as many rifles as they can in a tough box, a trained operator will carry his NODs, radio, and pistol in a well padded 1750. Some people call the SF E7 " the most highly paid rifleman in the US Army" as a derogatory term but that selective training and experience does get you something.

I remember the propaganda of "the massive rate of failures" of the M4 coming out in 2005'ish. Quotes from Rangers in the account of QRF'ing at Roberts Ridge. "I got off the helicopter as we were taking fire and returned fire with two rounds and my rifle jammed. I pulled out a cleaning rod I carried for just this issue and cleared the rifle...". I remember reading that in a article that was making the case for the 416. There was a flurry of that stuff for a year or two before fading away. I remember reading that and being amazed at how my experience with the M4 was nothing even remotely close.

I do agree that we need to develop the next generation of weapon systems. Every major state is innovating at a rapid pace. If we think we're just going to stick with the M4 for the next 20 years we're going to be in a state of panic one day and forced to whip out some serious garbage in a reactionary emergency. Right now is not a time to stick your head in the sand when it comes to keeping up with the Joneses. I won't say the current process and cost of how we do that is perfect but it's not like there's a long line of really good credible, privately well funded companies generating the perfect rifle ready to hand it to DOD for free. I really don't have an extreme opinion of SIG one way or the other that people on this site seem to. I don't own a single gun of theirs. But I think they need to iterate in order to develop. When you read St Johns comments, he's absolutely right. Even if we decide to move away from a large frame platform and cartridge and have to start over, DOD needs to learn that lesson. Like a lot of things, success comes from learning from failure.

I wouldn't condemn either side and I also wouldn't get your panties in a wad over teething issues and a series of iterative improvements.

As far as a BN CSM writing a white or information paper, LMAO. Ain't no line BN CSM writing a report. Dudes got 99 problems but he ain't writing papers. And if he did, guess who he would use to do it? A CPT. AKA the " MK 1 MOD III prod generator".
Solid points. I also have no issue with sig. I own or have owned a pile of them, and they were and are all pretty darn good. Their optics are severely underrated. I just don't understand why they felt the need to try a new untested platform. What they thought they needed here was available in easier ways. A 6arc piston ar from a good manufacturer would have been a better idea. They could have kept all of their parts and made a relatively seamless transition. I guess you'd have to worry about Joe stuffing a 5.56 round into the 6arc, but I don't think you could make it fire. The recoil of this cartridge alone makes it a bad idea in my opinion. Joe can't shoot now, so giving them a 500% increase in recoil doesn't seem like a great idea. They better start worrying about issuing them shotguns with a load of 3-1/2" tungsten #2 to shoot down drones. That seems to be the current immediate battlefield threat. Next, they can start teaching them to knife fight so they don't end up going viral for getting stabbed to death by a man with a helmet mounted go pro.
 
I think it makes sense to design from scratch. Unconstrained. I don't know what the Goldilocks cartridge is. I used to think 6 Grendel was it back in 2009'ish but these days I think there is a better design waiting to be designed.

I think 6 ARC is a trend currently. People like to compare it with other cartridges in it's best possible boutique configuration. 105's at 2900 with Lever revolution or something and then they settle on 90gr bullets in 14.5" going 2550 or something. When you compare a 224 in a 77gr bullet at 2600 vs a 243 in a 85gr bullet going 2700 is there a huge leap forward in capability? Not really imo. I also don't think a large frame cartridge is going to work in the long run for an industrial standard across the board for massive formations of infantry. There's just too many small people out there.

And I think we really need to focus on defeating armour at range. That's just my personal opinion. As far as I know that's velocity, precision, and bullet construction.

Whatever it ends up being, it's not going to happen without the help of a company that has a pretty large and impressive capacity for development. Manufacturing and development infrastructure is an extremely important war time factor that you need to create prior to conflict. Building manufacturing capacity in a country that can be quickly rolled over to make inexpensive one way attack drones during war is an example of how you build national resilience to external threats. If we were to pick a company to iterate and develop with, it seems like SIG is a company that has capacity.
 
At the end of the day, in a modern infantry company, 240B's kill people, apaches kill people, vehicle mounted crew serves kill people, indirect kills people, and rarely but sometimes, small arms fire kills people. Mostly they are just making noise and spending money while laying scunion. I gather from your responses that you understand this. This is why I really don't see the need to give everyone something bigger than .223. Expand the ddm numbers in m-tow in long range engagements are more realistic, and fit them with great equipment and train them correctly. M14 ebr's weren't the worst idea, but there are far better options out there. But largely, giving Joe a more lethal round at the cost of diminished ammo carrying capacity is completely illogical if you understand what's actually happening out there.
 
Sure. Combined arms warfare is the bigger picture. There's a lot more impactful systems at play, agree with you there. But I don't think any of that negates the prudence of developing the next generation of rifle. Someone is going to do it. Do you want to be the small group of paratrooper out there on the fringe in a comms denied environment without the ability to leverage all those other assets knowing you're outgunned? at the basic rifle level?

I agree, it can't come at the cost of basic combat load. It's a tough problem to solve. And the one who does, wins. And that's what America does.
 
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The Marines are on to something with a 416 based individual weapon with suppressor. What can be done with powder and bullet design to get the leathality increase within reason? The M250 gets me all warm in the jiggly bits for a 240L replacement, and two more to each squad is a lot of damm firepower.
 
I'm just a guy who enjoys shooting and training, I've never been in the military. That said, this Sig rifle seems to miss the mark on so many obvious levels.

Not to mention the very significant increase in weight and reduced ammunition both in the rifle and in the soldier's loadout, the other problems are equally glaring to me.

This rifle is touted as having increased range, but every test I've seen shows that it is significantly less precise than some of the more modern M4 derivatives such as the URGI and even the block 2.

What good is having a hot rod cartridge if it is shooting 4 MOA? The poor accuracy more than offsets the increased effective range. It kind of makes the Uber expensive Vortex optic a waste as well.

If I was running the ship and I insisted on a cartridge with greater range, the 6 ARC or 6 Max seems like the obvious solution. Same small frame AR platform, same manual of arms, not much more recoil, not giving up much in terms of magazine capacity, and a significant increase in effective range.

Personally, a Geissele URGI with 77 grain mk262 and a Vortex Razor 1-6 or Nightforce NX8 1-8x would be my choice as the standard service weapon and ammunition.

But again, I'm just some guy in the woods who likes to shoot.

I'd be willing to bet my house that someone at the DOD is personally benefiting from the decision switch to that POS rifle.
 
At the end of the day, in a modern infantry company, 240B's kill people, apaches kill people, vehicle mounted crew serves kill people, indirect kills people, and rarely but sometimes, small arms fire kills people. Mostly they are just making noise and spending money while laying scunion. I gather from your responses that you understand this. This is why I really don't see the need to give everyone something bigger than .223. Expand the ddm numbers in m-tow in long range engagements are more realistic, and fit them with great equipment and train them correctly. M14 ebr's weren't the worst idea, but there are far better options out there. But largely, giving Joe a more lethal round at the cost of diminished ammo carrying capacity is completely illogical if you understand what's actually happening out there.
This is true, but our acquisition process requires too many civilians and officers, and not enough trained, competent E5's and E6's. When they start using people that are too high up in the chain, they start to lose sight of 'whats goin on out there'.
 
Small arms don't produce battlefield casualties. They are personal defense weapons for maneuver units that bear down HE. Worrying about penetrating armor is retarded when you can just kill them with overpressure and you don't need a sharpshooter to do it. Reduce weight, add HE and EW is the future. Add more indirect fire, NLOS type systems, cheaper and more plentifully armed drones. Add a Carl G or two to each squad. Bring back squad knee mortars.
 
Small arms don't produce battlefield casualties. They are personal defense weapons for maneuver units that bear down HE. …
😆 Spoken like someone with a username of “DeathBeforeDismount”.

Yes, explosives are the most casualty producing weapon, but small arms still routinely account for 30-40% of casualties in war. And when you have that conventional dismounted infantry platoon taking fire from a distance and outside the range of brigade artillery, but the nearby ODA is hogging all the CAS, then yeah you need small arms with some reach.
 
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😆 Spoken like someone with a username of “DeathBeforeDismount”.

Yes, explosives are the most casualty producing weapon, but small arms still routinely account for 30-40% of casualties in war. And when you have that conventional dismounted infantry platoon taking fire from a distance and outside the range of brigade artillery, but the nearby ODA is hogging all the CAS, then yeah you need small arms with some reach.
Not in a real war. A war where you have to worry about near peer or heavily armored combatants such as the very purpose of this rifle. In such battles very little casualties will be produced by service rifles. It's also why you need organic HE down to the squad/platoon level. Special operations becomes less important and prevelent in a near peer.
 
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Not in a real war. A war where you have to worry about near peer or heavily armored combatants such as the very purpose of this rifle. In such battles very little casualties will be produced by service rifles. It's also why you need organic HE down to the squad/platoon level. Special operations becomes less important and prevelent in a near peer.
Yes in a real war. Even World War 1 and 2.

As for SOF becoming less important in a near peer, absolutely not true. They just take different roles than they had in GWOT. SF moves to sabotage and training insurgencies behind the lines, and Rangers continue with high risk raids, just on different types of targets and defenses. Not too dissimilar to the OSS, SOE, Commandos, or Rangers in WWII.

But my post wasn’t about SOF really. It was about conventional units not always having the ability to call for fire. And no, they can’t always carry appropriate HE.
 
I think that the problem with any rifle submitted begins with the specifications.

In 1865, army standards was that the rifle had to hit a 6ft. X 6ft. square at 600 yards. We've come a long way since then with requiring 4MOA accuracy.

IMHO, that accuracy requirement can be reduced by at least half given the advances in weapons and ammunition technology.
 
I think that the problem with any rifle submitted begins with the specifications.

In 1865, army standards was that the rifle had to hit a 6ft. X 6ft. square at 600 yards. We've come a long way since then with requiring 4MOA accuracy.

IMHO, that accuracy requirement can be reduced by at least half given the advances in weapons and ammunition technology.
I've seen colt M4's that wouldn't be able to put a bullet in that 6'x6' square.

More than a few..
 
Ammo plays a bigger factor than the barrel. Also has to be able to shoot all kinds of different bullets so everything is a compromise. Also needs to be durable enough to handle fast firing schedules then not being shot for years. Needs to be robust enough it doesn't get severely damaged from over cleaning and needs to be made of highly corrosion resistant materials. Most people can't hold 4moa with a red dot and match ammo/rifle anyway.
 
SIG keeps winning Army contracts because they keep delivering exactly what the Army asks for. Nothing really sinister about it.

Competition would win if they did the same thing, but aren't.

Jason St. John came from 3rd Ranger Battalion and the Army Marksmanship Unit. He, Robby Johnson, and Jared Van Aalst were some killing muldoons with sniper rifles. The three also served on the Army Rifle Team, Pistol Team, and Combat shooting teams.

The XM7 has some problems. I'm curious to see if it ever gets out of experimental stage. Army just killed M10 Bradley and a number of more expensive programs.
 
Perhaps they are asking for what sig already makes or unique features they have that have zero bearing on war fighting. A bit ironic how companies like colt, HK, FN , DD, LMT ect who have been long time proven defense suppliers all forgot how to build guns and somehow sig just wins every comp despite their horrendous history and questionable qualifications and quality....which you are seeing play out as many of us expected.

It's either gross incompetence , corruption or most likely a combination of both.

I don't care who works for them. They are getting paid to push the shit. Any company could hire some former hitters who aren't smart or driven enough to build their own brand/company.
 
😆 Spoken like someone with a username of “DeathBeforeDismount”.

Yes, explosives are the most casualty producing weapon, but small arms still routinely account for 30-40% of casualties in war. And when you have that conventional dismounted infantry platoon taking fire from a distance and outside the range of brigade artillery, but the nearby ODA is hogging all the CAS, then yeah you need small arms with some reach.
YUP! Machine gun teams got a lot of action then. AND they werent producing suppressing fire either, they were killin people.
 
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SIG keeps winning Army contracts because they keep delivering exactly what the Army asks for. Nothing really sinister about it.

Competition would win if they did the same thing, but aren't.

Jason St. John came from 3rd Ranger Battalion and the Army Marksmanship Unit. He, Robby Johnson, and Jared Van Aalst were some killing muldoons with sniper rifles. The three also served on the Army Rifle Team, Pistol Team, and Combat shooting teams.

The XM7 has some problems. I'm curious to see if it ever gets out of experimental stage. Army just killed M10 Bradley and a number of more expensive programs.
The P320 acquisition process was jacked up though. Terminating it early instead of finishing the durability testing.

But between the competitors for the NGSW, I would have picked Sig in that lineup too.
 
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The P320 acquisition process was jacked up though. Terminating it early instead of finishing the durability testing.

But between the competitors for the NGSW, I would have picked Sig in that lineup too.
I agree with all of that. Also, lots of government contracts are worded in a very specific way that provides favor to a very specific firm. I'm not saying that's necessarily what happened with either the pistol or the rifle programs, but it would not be surprising at all.

If there was no financial interest for decision makers, and if the most important thing was fielding the most effective firearm for the war fighter and the taxpayer, neither the 320 series or the xm7 would have stood a chance. I'm not a Glock fanboy, but picking a 17, 19, or 45 would have been a no-brainer. You end up with a reliable combat accurate pistol that has cheap and plentiful magazines/parts and has been proven over the past 40 years.

Geissele, DD, LMT, or any number of firms could bring a small frame 6 ARC to the military with minimal effort or drama. Throw in a high quality proven lpvo on top, and you'd have a vastly superior rifle system for a fraction of the price.
 
I was thinking about the statement I made about why giving Joe a bigger cartridge at the expense of ammo carrying capacity and I thought of a way to put a fine point on it. Now, I don't think we have this data yet for this century's wars, but in Vietnam, as is well documented, it took soldiers about 4,000 rounds for every casualty produced. I doubt the numbers from Iraq and Afghanistan will be any better, and might be worse. In a typical infantry platoon, you could have a maximum of 25 guys carrying a standard issue rifle. In all honesty, you'll never have that many, but let's pretend. With a combat load of 240rds per man, they have a total of 7,000 rounds, or a casualty capacity of roughly 1.4 enemy combatants if they expend all ammo. Assuming they perform at the average level, would it make sense to reduce their ammo carrying capacity by a third to double their cartridge capability? I don't think that math works. Hits beyond the effective range of an M4? Not very likely in all honesty. Very rare. Defeating armor? Did we forget that 5.56 is pretty rough on armor already. When you realize that it takes 4,000 bullets to hit one guy, is additional armor penetration really even a neccessary discussion?
 
I believe that media officer for sig, Mr Saint John, is the same MSG Saint John formerly of group and then later cag, winner of several best ranger comps, and a bad, bad man to stand across a battlefield from.

This captain made a whole bunch of errors in his report: barrel length, weight etc., and honestly doesn't seem to understand much of what he is saying, (which is par for the course for anyone in the officer corps). If this scathing report was written by a CSM of a line battalion or larger unit, or a door kicker in the ops community, it would be more credible in my opinion.

I also couldn't help but laugh at the desired weight load of 55lbs. Get outta here with that bullshit. A full set of XL armor with green plates was right at 45lbs iirc. That's where the development should be done is finding an armor replacement that is about 10lbs and leave them with m4's for a few more years. Maybe then every single infantry vet with more than a few years in wouldn't be lining up for knee replacements and back surgeries in the decades following their service. The m4 worked great. The .223 was enough, (especially when you understand how many bullets are wasted to hit one enemy solder, (it's thousands)). I'm sure the rifles are better than the capt said and worse than the sig report says, but ultimately the bail out for sig if the rifle sucks will be the same bail out KAC used when they gave us those garbage M110 rifles: "we built the rifle the Army wanted, not what we wanted to give you".
JSOC has been closely watching the XM7 and evaluated it already, as has Ranger Regiment. Neither of them want anything to do with it, and there are retired CAG guys on the Big Army acquisition side who have said it’s a colossal abortion.

Any time we have a new weapon system, the leading-edge SOF elements are usually first adopters. That was true with the AR-15 in the early 1960s, as well as the SAW, M4A1, and MAG58/M240.

SFOD-D was using Colt 723s already in the early-mid 1980s, which became the baseline for the XM4 program and 727, before the M4A1 and M4 were adopted in 1994.

Same with AimPoints, LPVOs, KAC Rails, Surefires, Lvl IV plates, the MICH helmet, better comms, better night vision, better everything. So if this XM7 was all that, they would already be using it, but they’re not, because it’s a POS.

KAC was hamstrung by the big pickle dickle Army on M110 primarily with that stupid HPT bolt requirement. SOF units that could still mandated acquisition of SR-25s, not M110s. Big Army has managed to screw up small arms acquisition as a rule since the M14. Their last successful rifle program was literally the Garand. Everything else they have touched has been a disaster or they diminished a good thing with silly and retarded requirements.
 
Not in a real war. A war where you have to worry about near peer or heavily armored combatants such as the very purpose of this rifle. In such battles very little casualties will be produced by service rifles. It's also why you need organic HE down to the squad/platoon level. Special operations becomes less important and prevelent in a near peer.
In LSCO, I don’t see US Infantry anywhere near the areas of temporary contest.

In COIN, Infantry are critical when leveraged correctly with Intelligence, SOF, and limited Air assets and their support. Then precision and limited collateral are key.

Because of our superiority in combined arms forces at levels so far away from Infantry, our adversaries will do everything in their power to initiate more destabilizing asymmetric warfare operations that make more COIN operations likely, so we need to think about Infantry that way, not how what we’re seeing happen in Ukraine between under-equipped Russians and Ukrainians who have no modern air assets at-scale.

The XM7 is neither relevant in LSCO nor COIN, so the Army managed to get it as wrong as possible, without going to a bolt gun. They need to be thinking more lightweight, more precision, and more training culture built into units at the Battalion, Company, and Platoon levels.

The XM250 seemed interesting until the suppressed feedback of course made its way around the attempts at censorship, and it turned out to be a POS too.
 
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SIG keeps winning Army contracts because they keep delivering exactly what the Army asks for. Nothing really sinister about it.

Competition would win if they did the same thing, but aren't.

Jason St. John came from 3rd Ranger Battalion and the Army Marksmanship Unit. He, Robby Johnson, and Jared Van Aalst were some killing muldoons with sniper rifles. The three also served on the Army Rifle Team, Pistol Team, and Combat shooting teams.

The XM7 has some problems. I'm curious to see if it ever gets out of experimental stage. Army just killed M10 Bradley and a number of more expensive programs.
Seeing how poorly NGSW has been managed, I think it’s more than fair to say just about every dollar on the program has been a waste of resources that could have gone to things that actually produce results, and will produce results in the future.

I agree that all the contenders were handed a bit of a turd when the requirement was to get a .277” 135gr EPR to penetrate some type of armor at 600m. That drove the back-end baseline carbine or rifle to be a heavy beast with excess pressure built into the system, with a significantly-reduced basic load.

7.62x51 type basic load equals no ability to maintain fire even on the offense, as demonstrated during the observed live-fire events that any of us have been talking about since we saw the cartridge configuration.

At this stage, I would rather see almost every dime of this program go to JSF, Long Range Fires, EW, UAS, and just do a new Block upgrade M4A1 with anodized FDE and a new intermediate DM cartridge to augment/replace 7.62x51, increasing the overall round count among Squads and Platoons for equal or better effects.

Since we have already seen UAS employed in COIN, Infantry will need counter-UAS systems at the Platoon and Squad level. That’s where we are seeing a void, though there are some new large scattergun systems being RFP’d and competed last I saw.

XM7 is proof Big Army can’t be trusted to solicit or manage a small arms program.
 
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JSOC has been closely watching the XM7 and evaluated it already, as has Ranger Regiment. Neither of them want anything to do with it, and there are retired CAG guys on the Big Army acquisition side who have said it’s a colossal abortion.

Any time we have a new weapon system, the leading-edge SOF elements are usually first adopters. That was true with the AR-15 in the early 1960s, as well as the SAW, M4A1, and MAG58/M240.

SFOD-D was using Colt 723s already in the early-mid 1980s, which became the baseline for the XM4 program and 727, before the M4A1 and M4 were adopted in 1994.

Same with AimPoints, LPVOs, KAC Rails, Surefires, Lvl IV plates, the MICH helmet, better comms, better night vision, better everything. So if this XM7 was all that, they would already be using it, but they’re not, because it’s a POS.

KAC was hamstrung by the big pickle dickle Army on M110 primarily with that stupid HPT bolt requirement. SOF units that could still mandated acquisition of SR-25s, not M110s. Big Army has managed to screw up small arms acquisition as a rule since the M14. Their last successful rifle program was literally the Garand. Everything else they have touched has been a disaster or they diminished a good thing with silly and retarded requirements.

This is why I’m very interested to see how the MRGG-A program goes and with the 6 ARC stuff mixed in there are some great alternatives
 
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I’m no military guy, but am I correct that part of the reason why the Army wanted a new rifle is randos in Afghanistan shooting their PKM’s at our troops from a looong way out? And our 5.56 guns being out-ranged?

If that’s true, then why don’t we just copy the lightweight PKM in 7.62 NATO and give it to the machine-gunner in the squad? Does our 7.62 NATO not ballistically match the PKM’s 7.62×54mmR or does the PKM design require a rimmed cartridge? I imagine it’s something that I’m not considering.

Again, dumb question from a guy with limited knowledge on the subject; just trying to learn something here.
 
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I’m no military guy, but am I correct that part of the reason why the Army wanted a new rifle is randos in Afghanistan shooting their PKM’s at our troops from a looong way out? And our 5.56 guns being out-ranged?
There was a reason big army mandated a 7.62 weapon had to go on EVERY movement some 20 years ago. They knew the 556 had limits and tried to do the best they could to offset that limitation for the light fighter out on patrol



My opinion is DoD had the solution in house already, it just needed updating. They created a new “problem” to sell the need for a new system
 
SIG keeps winning Army contracts because they keep delivering exactly what the Army asks for. Nothing really sinister about it.
Big Army doesn’t know what they want. They think they do…

Almost like they need a team of E-3’s through E-7’s [thinking independently of politically motivated brass], and who have recently been operational, to test and evaluate new potential tools to further evaluate for acquisition… wait, where have I seen this before?
 
I’m no military guy, but am I correct that part of the reason why the Army wanted a new rifle is randos in Afghanistan shooting their PKM’s at our troops from a looong way out? And our 5.56 guns being out-ranged?

If that’s true, then why don’t we just copy the lightweight PKM in 7.62 NATO and give it to the machine-gunner in the squad? Does our 7.62 NATO not ballistically match the PKM’s 7.62×54mmR or does the PKM design require a rimmed cartridge? I imagine it’s something that I’m not considering.

Again, dumb question from a guy with limited knowledge on the subject; just trying to learn something here.

Yeah, that’s part of it. There is also the intent of reaching overmatch against near-peers. The INDOPACOM area of responsibility isn’t all dense jungle. Bonus that it would also provide overmatch against war lords/terrorists in the Sahel too.

7.62 is good, but no it doesn’t provide overmatch against 7.62x54. Kind of keeps us on par, not overmatching.

The 6.8x51 is a good idea. If the M250 is reliable (TBD), then it does exactly what you’re thinking. It provides great range and is lighter than the M249 or Mk48. They’re also going to re-barrel the M240s in 6.8x51.

The XM7 is a poor implementation. Though if someone other than Sig made them I would see benefit for 2-4 per squad, while keeping a full compliment of M4s in the arms rooms for situations when the XM7 provides no benefit.
 
Yeah, that’s part of it. There is also the intent of reaching overmatch against near-peers. The INDOPACOM area of responsibility isn’t all dense jungle. Bonus that it would also provide overmatch against war lords/terrorists in the Sahel too.

7.62 is good, but no it doesn’t provide overmatch against 7.62x54. Kind of keeps us on par, not overmatching.

The 6.8x51 is a good idea. If the M250 is reliable (TBD), then it does exactly what you’re thinking. It provides great range and is lighter than the M249 or Mk48. They’re also going to re-barrel the M240s in 6.8x51.

The XM7 is a poor implementation. Though if someone other than Sig made them I would see benefit for 2-4 per squad, while keeping a full compliment of M4s in the arms rooms for situations when the XM7 provides no benefit.

Will the 240’s be able to run the same pressure ammo?

Will be interesting to see what benefit the 6.8 has once commercial bimetal cases start to happen (even if they don’t push to the full 80k psi)
 
The XM7 is a poor implementation. Though if someone other than Sig made them I would see benefit for 2-4 per squad, while keeping a full compliment of M4s in the arms rooms for situations when the XM7 provides no benefit.

I tend to agree. I think the GWOT taught us that there are times when a 5.56mm M4 makes more sense, and other times when a 7.62mm AR10 makes more sense. And clearly over the last 20 years the mindset towards this issue has been "lets just make a modular rifle that can Joe can swap out components in the field" (shudder) instead of "let's just field two rifles and squads/teams can just use them based on mission requirements." The XM7 seems to be an attempt to find a middle ground between those two, and as is often the case, instead it does neither particularly well.
 
I’m no military guy, but am I correct that part of the reason why the Army wanted a new rifle is randos in Afghanistan shooting their PKM’s at our troops from a looong way out? And our 5.56 guns being out-ranged?

If that’s true, then why don’t we just copy the lightweight PKM in 7.62 NATO and give it to the machine-gunner in the squad? Does our 7.62 NATO not ballistically match the PKM’s 7.62×54mmR or does the PKM design require a rimmed cartridge? I imagine it’s something that I’m not considering.

Again, dumb question from a guy with limited knowledge on the subject; just trying to learn something here.
Chuck pressburg had some thoughts on this. It's in an old very long article.


We’ve discussed the ramifications of a heavier weapon that shoots heavier ammo at the individual level as it pertains to the weight of the soldier load. The last time the NGSW topic came up in Tactics & Applications, prior to the XM5 & XM250 selection announcement, Chuck Pressburg had the following commentary to offer:

“…I don’t know the context of the alleged complaints from the close quarter elements about overmatch. I do know that in AFG, if the enemy let you get within 300 meters of them, that they considered it a tactical error. The PK/RPG to AK ratio of that insurgent force was sometimes over 50%. Numbers skewed way beyond western task organizations. This is simply because they had a healthy respect for American lethality inside of 300, so they selected stand off weapons based on that fear. So, if your Mk18 and EOtech combo left you wanting, it was because you failed to realize that if you could get a muhj in your sights under 300 meters, that muhj had fucked up. So we are largely talking apples and oranges here. It’s not an accurate comparison to talk overmatch/lethality between service rifles based on a conflict where the majority of the fighters used medium machine guns and rocket launchers.

I don’t support NGSW because of the weight increase to soldier’s load alone. The capability increases are significant, but the reality is that we have already greatly overloaded the soldier. Look at the Ukrainians, look at what they are NOT carrying on their kit. Think about how far a dismounted Anti-armor hunter-killer team can move overland with only two plates in a carrier, an ifak, 2 or 3 extra mags for their rifle, and a panzerfaust3, NLAW, or RPG-7 and ammo backpack? Think about what we would have a US soldier carry? The operational range of our dismounted patrols will be significantly less even though the patrol’s technical capabilities will be much higher.

What good is meshed networks, holo lenses, sensor fusion, and fire-controlled AP ammunition kinetic weapons if the village that needs to be liberated from a mechanized incursion and snap TCP is 6KM away and American small unit leaders realize they can’t make it 6km overland in enough time to effect the outcome without somebody falling out of the movement from orthopedic injury, or dehydration due to over exertion? Go back and research the 2006 conflict where the Izzy’s moved on southern Lebanon. Look at the photos of what the soldiers looked like moving toward the fight, and what they looked like returning from the fight just 3 days later. Weight matters and honestly it might be the most important factor in dismounted operations. Getting approach, and fighting loads down to a reasonable level should be our top priority, not giving soldiers heavier weapons with heavier ammo. We are seeing now that HE kills. Small arms are almost an afterthought against motorized/mechanized forces.
 
Using the logic that a machine gun on high ground using plunging fire out ranges troops in a valley with M4's as a requirement for a new rifle is dumb. Of course it does, they aren't in the same class of weapon. That line of thought is just an inevitable game of one-upsmanship. Guess what over matches a PKM and a DSHKA? AWT, CAS, ATACMs, GMLRS. You know.... everything we used to pound LBP into oblivion for the last 24 years.

The next generation of weapons, munitions, systems, and mobility isn't about GWOT. DOD is like a heavy, high horsepower vehicle that someone just slammed the gas pedal on right now. Smoking tires and about to take off. In literal terms a lot of leaders want to shed unhelpful requirements of the past and modernize with a sense of urgency that I have only seen once before. Around 2002. It's all about lethality, innovating, and being able to survive a war the magnitude of WWII against an extestential enemy. It's almost like we're getting ready for something huge. 🤔 Hmmm. And quite frankly, isn't that what you want your standing military to be ready for? Your literal survival?

It is extremely common for a lot of people to go back to what they know. Everyone likes to think of themselves as clever, innovative, forward thinking. But you can just watch people continually base their opinions and assessments on some prior example.

I would also say that innovating is harder than most people give credit for. The very nature of it is that you're going to try untested variation and likely learn from failure. I am a huge proponent of learning the basics, SOPs, and fundamentals before a rank newb just starts writhing in innovation and free flow. A team, squad, or maneuver element needs a commonly understood basis for change. A known point of departure. There's definitely areas to innovate and then there's places where we don't need to reinvent the wheel. I definitely believe in a specific and targeted approach to innovation. Especially when a lot of your force is extremely young. Which it is right now, and it's becoming more so. 20 years post 9/11 has seen a massive exodus of GWOT veterans. Total swag on my part but I see a ton of O3's and SSG's without CIBs and combat patches. I see quite a few O4s and a few E7s. I'm going to guess in 5 years you're going to see fast tracking E8s and SGMs without combat experience. So we don't have a force that has a bunch of sets and reps and can just form up on "what we did on the last rotation". We have a young force that has to learn basics of lethality. And what did we do before we had combat experience? We had to simulate stress and condition through hard realistic training. Imagining the worst and preparing for the worst. That is what the vast majority of our PLT and below people need to focus on right now. As other areas of our formations figure out how to innovate.

I do firmly believe we can't just keep doing what we've been doing for the last 25 years and expect to be successful. Now is the time to leap ahead. We have more clear information and examples of how very powerful competitors can put the US in a bind that we've never felt before in the history of our nation. The only thing that is comparable is Pearl Harbor, imo.

If you want to have an opinion on what you think DOD should be doing, read some history. I recommend "Surprise, Kill, Vanish" the history of assassination, the CIA, and DOD SOF. McCrystals book outlining how we built late history targeting. Even Legacy, about the All Blacks. Specifically the chapter about how to decide when to pivot (aka innovate). How to stay ahead of a competitor. Even when you're current strategy is winning. How to stay ahead of your enemy's OODA Loop.

I will just say this one thing about myself. I'm not an officer. I have watched our military transform from a peace time force before 9/11, through GWOT, supposed "post-war competition", to what I believe is just pre-full scale combat against peers or near peers. I learned how to communicate using Morse code, PRC-104's, one time pads, analog encryption devices connected by 1" thick cables that required their own BB-390. I lived the process of how we developed and modernized. In a lot of ways we've minimized the weight and scale of equipment on soldiers. The real "load" on soldiers these days is the complexity of modern war. We have task saturated every MOS and are now trying to figure out where to shoehorn cyber, robotics, and UAS in the modern unit of action.

I'm not defending SIG or this current prototype. But I am defending DOD attempting to modernize, in general. I do not agree with the idea that we should just grab a 6 ARC, some 6mm EPR, and a few G17's and call it good. That is amateur thinking.

ETA: it's also reasonable to think that as the pace of innovation and modernization increases, the service life of equipment will decrease. Using thought processes of, "....the _____ was in service for XX years, and it's replacement only lasted XX years..." is a less relevant metric as competition increases.
 
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Imagine 1.4 million Chinese infantry equipped like us. Their basic rifle qualification starts at 200 Meters and closes to 100.

The PLA is receiving the first of 1.4 million sets of SAPI plates this year. High-cut MICH helmets fielded in 2018-19. They're starting to get night vision.

1747411088822.png


The birth requirement for the 6.8 cartridge was to defeat a Chinese SAPI at 600.

Each American Soldier will carry fewer rounds and magazines.

The Chinese prefer to attack at 4:1. If you are the main effort they will dog-pile at 10:1. Terrain is less important to them than destroying forces. If the attack is successful they pursue to annihilate, and stop only when ordered.

Their artillery support will target you at 5:1. They prefer 7:1.
 
Imagine 1.4 million Chinese infantry equipped like us. Their basic rifle qualification starts at 200 Meters and closes to 100.

The PLA is receiving the first of 1.4 million sets of SAPI plates this year. High-cut MICH helmets fielded in 2018-19. They're starting to get night vision.

View attachment 8687773

The birth requirement for the 6.8 cartridge was to defeat a Chinese SAPI at 600.

Each American Soldier will carry fewer rounds and magazines.

The Chinese prefer to attack at 4:1. If you are the main effort they will dog-pile at 10:1. Terrain is less important to them than destroying forces. If the attack is successful they pursue to annihilate, and stop only when ordered.

Their artillery support will target you at 5:1. They prefer 7:1.
1.4 million conscripts don't concern me unless they are on the way to America, which will never happen.

Nobody is coming to kill us. This scare tactic bullshit is why we've been sucked into every single war we've wasted American lives on since WW1. If there isn't a standing threat, we create a paper tiger so we can keep funneling money into the MIC. Don't drink the kool aid.