Your 1st thing when building a rifle load?

[Sr-WiNdTeCh]

So far only proven with .223 rifles... I'm not going to lie

The first thing I start with is seating depth by Ogive.

I've heard people saying well my rifle like a Jump.... well that's probably because you didn't do your load development correctly and you've built a load that needs less pressure, when you could of put your bullet closer to the lands and did your load development and came up with a better shooting load than before because of this...

I've personally seen this done, I've personally proven the person wrong and now they accept my way.


Start with the Ogive seating depth, and make it so your bullet is within .005 of touching the lands, every load needs to be at this Ogive length regardless of any other factor, keep this one the same through all your loads, notice I say Ogive and not OAL, because OAL can very greatly, so stick with Ogive.

Why you ask, well it's simple, if you don't start with Ogive, you will probably just seat your bullet to the OAL given in the book, then find a load that is very good in your rifle then you will screw with the OAL last to make that load better (which works)... well guess what.. You probably missed a better load because you made all the other loads jump to the lands and just got lucky with a load that shoots "best"

Changing seating depth is changing pressures which needs to be done with powder/primers/brass later so you understand more whats going on, and whether you think so or not moving your bullet toward the lands will increases accuracy with proper load development due to less bullet yaw in the barrel.. (assuming your using a good press and dies and other quality tools)

This is a different way to think, but I truly believe this is the best way to start your load. It goes against what you were told, but remember we are all brainwashed when we first learn to do something, because human natures doesn't like change, there are a few of us out there that think outside the box, and thank god there are because other wise we would of never had FIRE or the WHEEL...

 

[taseal]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

.005 is such a small number that your die might not be accurate enough to get that.

you might move the bullet in or out that much when you handle it.

just my opinion. I'd say if you want to do load development, start at touching the lands, and work back .010 at a time

I don't have much experience in this field as alot of here do, but that's what I'm planning on doing...

when you're going to numbers like .005, I think you're just chasing numbers

 

[BobinNC]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sr-WiNdTeCh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The first thing I start with is seating depth by Ogive.

I've heard people saying well my rifle like a Jump.... well that's probably because you didn't do your load development correctly and you've built a load that needs less pressure, when you could of put your bullet closer to the lands and did your load development and came up with a better shooting load than before because of this...

I've personally seen this done, I've personally proven the person wrong and now they accept my way.


Start with the Ogive seating depth, and make it so your bullet is within .005 of touching the lands, every load needs to be at this Ogive length regardless of any other factor, keep this one the same through all your load,snotice I say Ogive and not OAL, because OAL can very greatly, so stick with Ogive.

Why you ask, well it's simple, if you don't start with Ogive, you will probably just seat your bullet to the OAL given in the book, then find a load that is very good in your rifle then you will screw with the OAL last to make that load better (which works)... well guess what.. You probably missed a better load because you made all the other loads jump to the lands and just got lucky with a load that shoots "best"

Changing seating depth is changing pressures which needs to be done with powder/primers/brass later so you understand more whats going on, and whether you think so or not moving your bullet toward the lands will increases accuracy with proper load development due to less bullet yaw in the barrel.. (assuming your using a good press and dies and other quality tools)

This is a different way to think, but I truly believe this is the best way to start your load. It goes against what you were told, but remember we are all brainwashed when we first learn to do something, because human natures doesn't like change, there are a few of us out there that think outside the box, and thank god there are because other wise we would of never had FIRE or the WHEEL... </div></div>

You must be a benchrest shooter. Cause the most important thing to me is that the round fits in the damn magazine and feeds. If you make a dummy round(s) that at max COAL it both fits the magazine and feeds from it, then the only playing you can do with seating depth, is to make it shorter.

For a tactical shooter or hunter that must have rounds that fit and feed from a mag, your technique is well.... rather useless.

Bob

 

[Sr-WiNdTeCh]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

Sorry - this is for a single shot rifle - for a magazine you make the OAL the longest you can and still have a reliable feed.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

"So far only proven with .223 rifles... I'm not going to lie"

Okay, without lying, so far and with how many .223 single shot rifles? And what size groups do you normally expect to achieve following your fixed but very precise OAL/seating guideline?

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

that was a bold statement and a waste of time reading it, none of my best loads are anywhere near .005 of the lands.
cheers.

 

[PK_IN_KC]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

I have found that certain bullets like a jump of .018 off the lands and others need to be jammed .010 into the lands. The benchrest guys do this. To make a blanket statement about every bullet needs to be kissing the lands for optimal accuracy isn't correct but you will have to find out for yourself.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

Ok I am game. I have a single shot 223 that shoots sub MOA with any load I have put in it from jamming the lands to .020" jump. The only thing I ever shot that was over MOA was with 69gr Prvi Partizan bullets, they shot 1.5-2 MOA.
My gun was built on a trued XPR-100 action with a 1-8 twist Krieger barrel and the chamber is concentric with the bore within .0002". After firing a round I can stick a bullet back in the fired case and there is enough friction to hold the bullet lightly, it won't fall out turned bottom up.
The load I use in competition is 80gr AMax .015" off the lands with 23.6 gr Varget and a CCI450 primer. The last time I grouped that load I was testing the 69gr PP bullets for a friend and for some fodder for my monthly article in the IHMSA News. I used my normal match load(listed above) as a control and it printed a nice .667" 5 shot group. That load secured my place as Unlimited Standing Champion in IHMSA Region 2 in 2010. So that load is a winner and everyone should be using that load in their gun.......but wait, everyone else has a different gun. My gun just happens to be a single shot pistol. Do you have any idea how many different reamers there are for a .223? A 308? A 30-06? Every chamber is different so load developement techniques are different. Yes I start at a predetermined seating depth and find a load then fine tune the load. generally I end up right back at .015" sometimes more sometimes less. I could tell you that the best place to start is .015" and I know this because it is always right in my gun. EVERY GUN IS DIFFERENT. Even when they are cut with the same reamer, wearing the same make barrel, same contour, same action etc etc.
My new 30-06 is in the load developement stage right now. The dies should be in my mailbox tomorrow and IF I continue to beat this wicked summer cold I may do some loading after the mail runs. The first thing I will determine, since this is a tactical build, will be how far off the lands mag length is with 208AMax and 190SMKs. I want to start .010" off the lands but will have to decide according to mag length then go from there. I promise you it will not be less than .010" off the lands but then I am brainwashed and simply follow the herd and the advice of the man who built the rifle.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

Armor: " EVERY GUN IS DIFFERENT. Even when they are cut with the same reamer, wearing the same make barrel, same contour, same action etc etc."

Well, all that's true but he "won't lie". And, to be fair, he did qualify that he is only an expert on .223s. But, on another board, he says if others want to routinely obtain the <.010" groups he gets from multipule rifles they have to do it his way; seating .005" off the lands. And he has 'proven' that by changing someone else's mind. (ROF,LMAO!)

I think I know which end is providing the <span style="text-decoration: underline">wind</span> in his screen name! Figger he has been reloading maybe two years, tops.?? And I strongly suspect his previously claimed <.010" 'groups' get much larger if he fires more than one shot at the same target!

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

i would have to believe, (unless i'm misunderstanding the title of the thread), that my first consideration for building a load is:

1. determining what bullet style and weight works the best off the shelf compared to the type of shooting i'm going to do (hunting or target, short or long range), with the intent of tweeking it from there.

2. proper case length so as not to f up the chamber

3. a safe powder charge, followed by a performance powder charge / choice that is not over or under charging the cartridge or head that was determined in #1.

4. completed case OAL, keeping #1,2,3 in mind.

5. then comes the primer selection

6. when all of that is working in harmony, smaller tweeks like neck tension, crimp / no crimp, primer pocket uniformity, and all the other "little" things.

6. when all of the that is determined and working well with each other, crank 'em out.

for me the OAL / seating depth (unless extremely deep or shallow) is down on the list as the 1st thing to consider.

 

[Sr-WiNdTeCh]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

I know it's hard to understand for some of you, how about open up your mind and think outside the box.

As for jamming into the lands, that's cool to, probably even better, but my whole point here is that you need to keep your bullet jump to a minimum and then start your load development.

Easy!

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sr-WiNdTeCh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know it's hard to understand for some of you, how about open up your mind and think outside the box.

As for jamming into the lands, that's cool to, probably even better, but my whole point here is that you need to keep your bullet jump to a minimum and then start your load development.

Easy!</div></div>


WOW! starts a topic on one's first thing they do for load development, then when given a few points of view, says one is close minded.

topic title: Your 1st thing when building a load?
- how many truly puts bullet hop as their first thing?

thinking out of the box - i've actually had loads that for whatever reason shot better with more bullet hop - reinforcing focusing on that seating depth, <span style="font-weight: bold">right from the start</span>, is pointless from either a safety or performance point of view.

any other response from THIS closed minded individual is a waste of time. bye, bye.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

You must have been loading for a very very long time. We are truly blessed to have you educating us dumb johnny come lately newbs hereabouts.
You talk in your posts like some analytical/anal type who has been loading about 2 years and thinks he has made some ground breaking discovery practically reinventing the wheel.
Now you say jamming the lands is even better. You are pathetic.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

"You are pathetic."

But <span style="text-decoration: underline">everyone else</span> is "close minded" if they don't believe the "new revelation" he has chosen to reveal to the great un-washed as <span style="font-style: italic">THE KEY</span> to load development. LMAO!

Makes me recall the old adage, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Application here is, geek gets started, geek eventually finds a good load, geek presumes he has found the key to glory and no one else has ever trod where has gone, thus geek is now qualified to tell the world what most of the world long knew more about than he has the experience to imagine.

Oh well, we will stand by and let him keep shooting his <.010" groups; I'm sure his (yet to be gained) 100 yd. BR competition record will soon prove just how correct he is about load development - and shooting.

Enough. The original amusement has worn off.

 

[Sr-WiNdTeCh]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

Maybe I'm missing something, I never said anything about a .01" group, also I don't shoot Benchrest, I shoot for fun. I like how shit just gets made up.


I said START with seating depth, before you start with bullets or powder.. that's it... find your seating dept as close as you feel comfortable to your lands and then build all of your loads at that seating depth. There is nothing more to it.

Seriously people.... Think about it... hmm... does this minimize bullet yaw in the barrel when using good reloading equipment.... The answer is yes regardless if you think your right or not, because you aren't right. (maybe do some research, I didn't come up with this on my own, it is clearly documented)

A bullet has mass, when that mass is acted upon by gravity... what happens when it has to jump to the lands? There are other factors aswell, but why wouldn't you want to take out as many factors as you can when loading for accuracy?

Let me ask you this... would you rather shoot with zero wind, or would you rather shoot when there is a swirling gusty wind.. hmmmm my guess is you will pick zero wind, and why is that... oh yeah... because it makes it easier to be accurate, same thing goes for you people buying Wilson and Redding dies, to make your ammo more concentric, but if you leave your bullet to jump .05" to the lands after using those dies then what good did the dies do if your letting outside factors play on your bullet before it gets to the lands.... People... what else do you need to understand this?

All of this is clearly documented, but nobody ever put it together before.

The reason you all think that you do your seating depth after you find your good load is because it changes the chamber pressure, which should be done with powder/primer combo, NOT SEATING DEPTH... Changing seating depth works, of course, but it's not as good as you can get if you started the way I describe because your bullet has more than likely yawed a little bit in your throat before it hits the lands, but the pressure is perfect for decent groups.

It's fine if you don't agree with me, then don't reply. I'm here for the people starting reloading so they are taught correctly.

 

[thespecialist]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sr-WiNdTeCh</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm here for the people starting reloading so they are taught correctly. </div></div>


I believe Tresmon was kind enough to take care of that with the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 20pt"><span style="color: #3333FF">5</span></span></span> different stickies at the top of the forum.

.005" jump isn't the magic recipe for every rifle, just like there isn't a magic powder that works the absolute best in every rifle.

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

I'm going to pass on the OP's guidance, thanks.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to pass on the OP's guidance, thanks. </div></div>

queequeq,

Are you going to pass on his guidance to someone you don't like, maybe??

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

No sir, I meant, I'll pass, thanks. I think the OP is amateurish and overly impressed with himself.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

Brad/Windmaker, on another forum you DID say you have developed .010" groups for multipul rifles by using your ".005 seating" method, then you gracously allowed that those who are satisfied with less accuracy can keep doing load development poorly. So, the only "made up shit" is denying you said it even though you didn't say it here. And you have the people on that board laffing too!


<span style="font-style: italic">"People... what else do you need to understand this? All of this is clearly documented, <span style="text-decoration: underline">but nobody ever put it together before</span>."</span> ???

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Do you <span style="font-style: italic">actually believe</span> YOU are the first reloader to ever start load development while seating at the lands</span>? And "nobody ever put it together before" before you so you're <span style="font-style: italic">REALLY</span> eager to "teach" the world what only you have discovered? Wow, how did the world ever turn without you!

Let me help YOU understand THIS; everything after you first said "The first thing I start with is seating depth by Ogive" is baloney and that's true only because it's what you do. Fact is, you really ain't even nearly as experienced or knowledgable as you think! And that would be VERY easy to document.

 

[Sr-WiNdTeCh]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

Never said what you claim I said so you can shove that up your ass. Also I'm right no matter what you say. LEARN PHYSICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LEARN ABOUT PRESSURES!!! LEARN ABOUT BALLISTICS!!!!

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

OK Senor Windbag that is about enough. I see the problem now. I had a pretty good discussion at a poker game one night with a physics major that wanted to school me like you are trying to do now. No I am not a physics major but I have put many thousands of rounds downrange 85% of which were reloads. I have shot them in competition, hunting, at paper, steel, living flesh and ranges from 20 yds to 1000 yds and all in between. I know experience doesn't cut much ice with the perpetually book smart, so lets agree our thoughts fall along parallel lines and shall never intersect. You keep reading your books and I will keep shooting and being blissfully ignorant. You remind me of the kid who is playing ball with himself. He throws the ball in the air and swings and misses, again he trows up and his swing misses, at the third swing and a miss he says to himself,"Gosh! What a pitcher!"

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

Well, I just went over to the other site and checked; I see you have edited/deleted where you said it. Did you do that because it was just too stupid to leave up? That's an amusing way to work around your own posted wisdom!

Kid, you can cover your tracks by editing but you can't make it go away. And you'll never again get me to believe you won't lie to us!

Now, just where did I put my physics book and ballistic charts....? I know they're around here sumplace...I'm just under too much pressure these days.

 

[thespecialist]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sr-WiNdTeCh</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Never said what you claim I said </span>so you can shove that up your ass. Also I'm right no matter what you say. LEARN PHYSICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LEARN ABOUT PRESSURES!!! LEARN ABOUT BALLISTICS!!!! </div></div>

Really?????? Maybe this will refresh your fuckin memory then

Rifle .105" and AR-15 .285"- Better Loads?

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

Specialist, I hadn't even seen that one, it's beautiful! :hilarious:

This is too funny... the kid shoots ONE bug hole group, "documents it" and admits he's afraid to even try to repeat it but is instant expert to the world on reloading (.223 single shot rifles only), ballistics, physics and pressure as well as being an all around really nice guy!

I won't lie to you; some fourty years ago I bought my 28 year old wife a .357 Blackhawk. As a smartass kid challange, our then 14 year old nephew set up a beer can with a small cone of dirt on which he sat an acorn and then dared his dear aunt to hit the acorn. One shot, about 25 yards, she cleaned the nut and hardly disturbed the dirt. She calmly blew the smoke out of the barrel, handed it to him, said, "Now you shoot the can" and she walked back to the farm house. Difference between her and this wind bag is she knew what she had just done was pure luck!

 

[btyeung]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

Berger has a pretty good whitepaper on working with bullet seating depths. I've had success with their method.

 

[Sr-WiNdTeCh]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

I have some questions...


True or False - Does changing seating depth alter the pressure of a load ever so slightly?
True or False - Does changing the primer from std to mag alter the pressure of the load ever so slightly?
True or False - Does changing the manufacturer of your brass alter the pressure of the load ever so slightly?
True or False - When building up loads in .1 grain increments of powder alter the pressure of a load ever so slightly?
True or False - Does buying quality dies and quality press make more accurate ammo with less runout?
True or False - Is there such thing as bullet yaw in the throat of a rifle barrel?

After these questions, and after you answered yes to all of them, there is no way to tell me that all your doing by putting the bullet seating depth farther away from the throat to decrease pressure and increase bullet yaw, couldn't of been done by decreasing bullet yaw and decreasing the powder charge by .1 or .05gr, or moving from a mag primer to a std primer, or going to a different brass manufacturer?

Has the light went off in your 30yr experienced heads yet? Or are you too stubborn in your ways?

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sr-WiNdTeCh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know it's hard to understand for some of you, how about open up your mind and think outside the box.

As for jamming into the lands, that's cool to, probably even better, but my whole point here is that you need to keep your bullet jump to a minimum and then start your load development.

Easy! </div></div>

Thanks for these pearls of wisdom. I've suspected everyone on here was so full of shit for all this time and finally someone far superior and knowledgeable to anyone here has come along and righted the world. We are blessed to have your talent amongst us and I can't understand why it has taken so long for you to tell all these "experts" that an "ex - is a has been" and a "spurt - is a drip under pressure."

Please tell me you have some other gems you can share with us ?

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

You don't even have a grasp on English comprehension and you are trying to school us on reloading. You ask 6 questions which can only be answered one of three ways and I assure you some of them are MAYBE and your heading to each question is True or False. You acknowledge that the we must answer yes to these questions. If you want a true or false statement then you must make a declaration just as you did when you started this mess of a thread. I really don't have time to answer your ravings. I have targets to measure to make an article deadline for tomorrow. Fuzzball can answer you quite well I suspect. I can give you numerous examples where switching brass or primers made no measurable difference in my group size all other factors being equal. I don't have time for your bullshit lightnin boy.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

"Fuzzball can answer you quite well I suspect."

Well, about all I need to say now is the boy just can't grasp that he has NOT discovered any pearls of wisdom (or understanding of rational debate) that others didn't know long before he was a glint in his daddy's eyes. Hell, I'm 70 and have been handloading since I was 24, still don't "know it all." And I know there were some very smart reloaders long before I was born but Windy seems to think the world started with him! It's just the sophomoric attitude of some young guys, even they may eventually learn something.

Well, I will also note that his careful list of reloading "facts" (which, by the list, we must presume he feels that only he knows?) have no relivance to his original premise that good loads must be developed by starting and staying within 5 thou of the lands. (Valid for a .223 single shot rifle only of course, and based on a single bug hole group he was too uncertain of to try to repeat - according to his own words!)

(Ref. "...decreasing the powder charge by .1 or .05gr...", does ANYONE actually try to vary test charges by .05 gr.? Variations in individual primers usually have more affect on a load than that, never mind the volume differences between individual cases!)

 

[Sr-WiNdTeCh]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
(Ref. "...decreasing the powder charge by .1 or .05gr...", does ANYONE actually try to vary test charges by .05 gr.? Variations in individual primers usually have more affect on a load than that, never mind the volume differences between individual cases!) </div></div>

Thanks for answering TRUE to my above questions with your own words.

Makes me feel all warm inside... Oh and I'm a hair over 40yrs old, and have reloaded for a little over 20yrs...

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

First thing when building a load?

Well, pick a bullet of course.

Then, second, build a rifle for it..........

 

[308isgreat]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

I don't know about everyone else, but my first thing when developing a load is to ALWAYS take a healthy shit. Free the colon, free the mind.......

 

[Chris@InterstateGuns]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308isgreat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know about everyone else, but my first thing when developing a load is to ALWAYS take a healthy shit. Free the colon, free the mind....... </div></div>

scented candles for more a relaxing mood or wallow in your own smell?

i try to figure out what i'm loading for in order to pick the projectile. am i critter gettin', meat gettin', points gettin' ?

 

[Jim See]

Re: Your 1st thing when building a load?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308isgreat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know about everyone else, but my first thing when developing a load is to ALWAYS take a healthy shit. Free the colon, free the mind....... </div></div>

That my friend is the best advise on this entire thread.
OP knows shit about chamber dimensions, lead dia. and how a match chamber is designed to center a bullet in the throat with-out the need to cram it into a funnel.