Rifle Scopes  ZCO 2-16

rtB

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^^^^ I'll take one of those.

But to save some cost skip the voice activated flip up lense covers. Those could easily be a 49 dollar accessory.
 
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TacticalPlinker

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A ZCO "Tactical Hunter" :
~2-12x44 F1
~30mm tube
~Quick ranging feature
~Tree based reticle
* Thick enough to be used in wooded areas without needing illumination (see G2H). But usable out to 1k yards max
~A floating dot AS DAYLIGHT BRIGHT AS POSSIBLE .
~10 mil per revolution
~Second turn pop up indicator
~Capped windage
~Low profile locking elevation (low enough to park a RDS in front and still see through the RDS.)
~Locking diopter
~non finicky parallax
~locking parallax (if possible)
~throw lever "fin"
~3-4" eye relief
~Generous exit pupil
~10-13" OAL
~25 oz max
 
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goatboy

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We are always watching and listening though. Lay it out. What do you have in mind exactly? The more specific the better. Can't make any promises though, but we are open to listening to desires.
Mag range in 2-3 to 12-16x

weight range in 16-20oz

simple mil tree reticle with heavier line sizing or design for functional optical use from 8x (try using a T3 at 8x)

cost under $2200

ZCO turrets, mag ring, locking diopter


i’ll pre order 3 right now.
 
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ma smith

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    One of the things that comes out of thinking about this
    is that the 2-16 optic market it drive by form factor and usability

    Weight, length, bulk, eybox, ease of use/focus/parallax etc
    is as critical as anything else to successful product.
     

    Guns&WhiteWater

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    My ideal hunting scope for the woods and small fields where I hunt in the southeast would be 2.5-3x on low end and 15-18x on top end with a 40-50mm objective and 30mm or 34mm main tube. Somewhat lightweight, locking or very stiff elevation turret with single turn only that covered 10 mils, capped windage, zero stop 0.5 mils below zero, not longer than 13 inches, first focal plane, mil/mil, with any type of 0.2 mil graduated reticle (tree or non-tree, doesn’t matter) but with an option to light up a 2ish MOA center dot only so that it could be used more effectively on low power and low light/dense cover. Not sure how to achieve this though, because I don’t want the dot visible unless it’s activated. Also a forgiving parallax and eye box, a field of view of at least 30 feet (but the wider the better), good depth of field, coatings that provide strong contrast, magnification optimized for low to mid end use, very large and bright elevation turret markings, and a non-reflective finish that was available in both black and FDE. The high end of 15-18x would only really be needed for range use (although frequent range use), hence the magnification optimization of the lower end of the scope range for hunting.
     
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    BurtGummer

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    You guys are never happy............

    "I want it to feel like you can drive railroad spikes with it, but weigh no more than a hummingbird feather."

    "I want to zoom in on the hair of a gnats balls at 800yds on the high end, but want a FOV so I can see a train end to end from 10yds on the low end."

    "I want to see the illumination when I look directly at the sun with it."

    "I want to feel the click of the turrets wearing a catcher's mitt, but with surgical precision."

    "I want it to include voice activated flip up lens covers, sunshade, polarizer filter for shooting a deer thru a window."

    "I want tooless zero."

    "I want it to cost no more than a Tasco."
    I think you responded to the wrong thread hoss
     

    gebhardt02

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    Lots of variation in requests, but overall the same or similar basic ideas being presented. I like it!

    We are collecting all this information of course and greatly appreciate all the suggestions being given. Jeff and I have discussed this same general idea a few times already and this thread reinforces a lot of where we were leaning for future product development. What I'm getting at is we are seriously considering all these thoughts.

    While a 5X zoom is optimal, adjustments can always be made. There are lots of factors involved of course.

    Keep tossing out ideas. I personally like the voice activated lens covers!
     

    BurtGummer

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    Lots of variation in requests, but overall the same or similar basic ideas being presented. I like it!

    We are collecting all this information of course and greatly appreciate all the suggestions being given. Jeff and I have discussed this same general idea a few times already and this thread reinforces a lot of where we were leaning for future product development. What I'm getting at is we are seriously considering all these thoughts.

    While a 5X zoom is optimal, adjustments can always be made. There are lots of factors involved of course.

    Keep tossing out ideas. I personally like the voice activated lens covers!
    I’m in for 2 preorders if you need some operating capital

    Lolol
     
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    CSTactical

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    Lots of variation in requests, but overall the same or similar basic ideas being presented. I like it!

    We are collecting all this information of course and greatly appreciate all the suggestions being given. Jeff and I have discussed this same general idea a few times already and this thread reinforces a lot of where we were leaning for future product development. What I'm getting at is we are seriously considering all these thoughts.

    While a 5X zoom is optimal, adjustments can always be made. There are lots of factors involved of course.

    Keep tossing out ideas. I personally like the voice activated lens covers!


    A lighter weight ZC420 would be pretty awesome for the hunting crowd :cool:
     

    Glassaholic

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    Hey gang ... don't forget that Jeff said in one of the podcast interviews (possibly the one with Frank) that he likes a 5x zoom ratio - and that once you get to 8x, then it creates all sorts of problems ...
    This is very true, having higher magnification range does create problems; however, it is possible to correct for these with better optical formulas, but that drives up price (look at Hensoldt 3.5-26, S&B 3-27, March 5-42 et al) it is easier to make a short magnification long scope more forgiving in just about every aspect, but not everyone wants a 16" 3x scope even though it may have the most forgiving experience.

    Every scope design has compromises, the question is what compromise are you going to make and the challenge for the manufacturer is how much will they invest in R&D, how much will the scope ultimately cost and will the market receive it and be willing to pay for it.

    The higher the erector ratio, the more problems to correct for and typically the more expensive the scope, given ZCO's motto of "Zero Compromise" this scope will not be cheap, how many would be willing to pay $3000 or more for a MPVO scope?

    Someone mentioned above even a 3-15 will fit the bill, but we have lots of 3-15 options so it doesn't make sense for ZCO to put out a 3-15 that has to compete with TT315M that has already established itself as a lightweight crossover juggernaut in the alpha class. Even a 2.5-15x42 that is under 23oz will shake things up, it doesn't have to be a 2-16, but it should be close to those parameters. Nightforce shook things up a bit when they announced their NX8 with a 2.5-20x50 but at $2k I knew they had to compromise on something and indeed the DOF, parallax and eyebox suffer along with some pretty severe edge distortion - that being said, many users are willing to overlook these deficiencies in order to get a 2.5-20 scope in a short body.

    I personally would love to see ZCO crush it with a 2-16 or 2.5-20 design that is both lighter and optically better than what's out there.
     

    Secant

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    A lighter weight ZC420 would be pretty awesome for the hunting crowd :cool:
    Completely agree. I don't know shit about shit, but a lighter weight 4-20 seems like it would be the path of least resistance to getting something actually produced instead of these strange pie-in-the-sky wishlists. I would think that a fair amount of the design and manufacturing from the existing 4-20 could be utilized to produce a ZCO420H, which could have the economical incentive to actually happen.

    I think the wishlist of a 8x+ erector, short/small body scope that is lightweight and feature rich without the optical/mechanical downsides represents perfect being the enemy of great. A complete new design with the associated research, development, testing, & evaluation might put this too far off due to the overall time and costs associated. The reality is that a 4-20 can cover basically every hunting situation, and also serves as a very useable cross-over magnification range.
     

    Glassaholic

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    Completely agree. I don't know shit about shit, but a lighter weight 4-20 seems like it would be the path of least resistance to getting something actually produced instead of these strange pie-in-the-sky wishlists. I would think that a fair amount of the design and manufacturing from the existing 4-20 could be utilized to produce a ZCO420H, which could have the economical incentive to actually happen.

    I think the wishlist of a 8x+ erector, short/small body scope that is lightweight and feature rich without the optical/mechanical downsides represents perfect being the enemy of great. A complete new design with the associated research, development, testing, & evaluation might put this too far off due to the overall time and costs associated. The reality is that a 4-20 can cover basically every hunting situation, and also serves as a very useable cross-over magnification range.
    Asked for a lightweight ZC420 almost after release, request seemed to fall on deaf ears, this thread seems to have some traction so can't hurt to put in a wishlist, especially since Nick essentially encouraged it. A lighter weight 4-20 would require a complete rework of the optical formula and manufacturing, I am not sure how much could be shared when going from a 36mm 4-20 design down to a 30mm 4-20 design.
     

    Secant

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    Asked for a lightweight ZC420 almost after release, request seemed to fall on deaf ears, this thread seems to have some traction so can't hurt to put in a wishlist, especially since Nick essentially encouraged it. A lighter weight 4-20 would require a complete rework of the optical formula and manufacturing, I am not sure how much could be shared when going from a 36mm 4-20 design down to a 30mm 4-20 design.
    Like I said, I don’t know shit. I am an engineer, but not an optical engineer. To extrapolate on my previous Tangent example, my understanding is that the TT315M and TT315P have the same (or similar) “optical formula” and also have the same eyepiece, parallax and illumination components (but of course I could be wrong). Different main body different turrets, and I’m sure other components that I don’t know about. If ZCO was able to move forward in a similar fashion and only modify part of the design & manufacturing, that might (again I don’t know shit) get an optic actually produced sometime in the near future.

    Out of curiosity, I’d be interested in hearing from @gebhardt02 to have a better general understanding whether or not components could be shared between the existing and make believe 4-20 optics.
     
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    gebhardt02

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    Out of curiosity, I’d be interested in hearing from @gebhardt02 to have a better general understanding whether or not components could be shared between the existing and make believe 4-20 optics.
    And I'm not technically an engineer either, but I did teach high school science for a few years. 😁

    I'm more an end-user, competitive shooter, keep my ears open to what other customers want type. Take this information, compile requests, filter out the BS, and help figure out the best course of action for any new products. So we (ZCO) are always here watching what people are asking for, listening to where we can improve/sustain, and looking for opportunities to develop something great that shooters will see an advantage with.

    Which components can cross over to a lighter weight 4-20? Totally not my expertise or lane to get involved in until we start putting ideas together and then determine what might work from the optical and mechanical guru's. Then as an end user heavily involved in this stuff, I get to put in my two cents. Hope that makes sense.

    So I'm sitting here, having a cold one, taking notes on requests so we can go over the data in a few days. 🍻🍻
     

    Sinned

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    Some flavor of lpvo, true 1x-? for shootingwith both eyes open, dual focal, red-dot in the second plane with a scale in the first. No idea on tube size or erector set, whatever to make it work?
     
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    SilentSteelCM

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    Some flavor of lpvo, true 1x-? for shootingwith both eyes open, dual focal, red-dot in the second plane with a scale in the first. No idea on tube size or erector set, whatever to make it work?
    While I would also like to see that, I personally think the trend of lpvos is something zco should not get involved in right now. To really shake things up in this heavily saturated market they would need to take part in the zoom ratio war and bring something new, which means they would need to heavily compromise on optical quality (or somewhere) and it is already I the name they don't want to do that. Also look at the pm2 1-8, that scope is not a big commercial success it seems like and the German army adopting it is what is bringing the sales (this is just an impression, I don't work for s&b and have no sales numbers or anything to solidify it, so take with a grain of salt!).
    The point I want to make is, that a high end, very expensive lpvo doesn't seem like it sells good when there is many options for cheaper that also do 95% of th job.
    That is exactly the reason why so many people here suggest a mpvo, one that checks all the boxes is missing in the market right now. When buying them people need to compromise on optical quality, zoom ratio, turrets and weight to get a scope that anymore vaguely represents what they originally wanted.
     

    HogsLife

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    When is ZCO going to make a scope similar in size and zoom to a NX8.
    Something like a 30mm 2-12 or 2-16?

    View attachment 7671458
    383F7230-FAE5-446E-A12D-7B9A1285D825.gif
     

    GreenMushroom

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    While I would also like to see that, I personally think the trend of lpvos is something zco should not get involved in right now. To really shake things up in this heavily saturated market they would need to take part in the zoom ratio war and bring something new, which means they would need to heavily compromise on optical quality (or somewhere) and it is already I the name they don't want to do that. Also look at the pm2 1-8, that scope is not a big commercial success it seems like and the German army adopting it is what is bringing the sales (this is just an impression, I don't work for s&b and have no sales numbers or anything to solidify it, so take with a grain of salt!).
    The point I want to make is, that a high end, very expensive lpvo doesn't seem like it sells good when there is many options for cheaper that also do 95% of th job.
    That is exactly the reason why so many people here suggest a mpvo, one that checks all the boxes is missing in the market right now. When buying them people need to compromise on optical quality, zoom ratio, turrets and weight to get a scope that anymore vaguely represents what they originally wanted.

    This. I have 2 spr types I want to setup with nice glass. I'm going to get a g3 for the 16" because like you said its 95% for a lot less money. A 2nd g3 probably makes the most sense for my usage and ability but I'd like something different and I'm willing to pay more for it. I'd also like to own one "alpha" scope but nothing I've looked at justifies the cost increase. I want more than better glass and bragging rights if I'm spending twice the 💰.
     

    Palmetto-Pride

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    I'd also like to own one "alpha" scope but nothing I've looked at justifies the cost increase.
    I will probably get flamed here….I have owned S&B, Zeiss, NF and they all were great scopes, but right now the current top scope I still have is a Raz Gen2 no the glass isn’t quite as good as those, the S&B had the best glass and parallax adjustment, but I never liked the turrets, the NF had the best turrets, but I hated the entire rear ocular moved for the zoom and parallax adjustment was very finicky for me with that scope, the Zeiss was a hunting scope and I probably shouldn’t even included it but it was just meh. In my opinion the Razor GEN 2 is the best scope you can get in the price range that it is. With all that said I will not be getting rid of my razor GEN 2, but I will be buying a ZCO very soon.
     

    XTREM HTR16

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    For hunting? I’d take a simple 3-12x42 built upon a scope like the S&B PMII 10x42. 20 ounces, P3 reticle. single turn 13 mil dial. Drop the exposed windage dial. No need for illumination if that increases weight.
     

    HogsLife

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    I personally don’t mind the weight. Sure, lighter can be better so long as is doesnt sacrifice durability / reliability (and it usually does). ZCO is heavier than an NXS and lighter than an ATACR and about on par with the Khales and waaaaaaaay under the Razor. I just grabbed a ZCO 5-27 for my dedicated LR Hunting rifle and there’s only 3oz difference between the 4-20 and the 5-27. Having some different mag ranges from the LPVO, to the 2-10, 3-15 etc wokld be great, butI wouldn’t be about there changing much of anything else.

    if I need light I’ll take the Pre64
    m70 .270 out of the closet and just run that
     
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    Reppa

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    Lots of variation in requests, but overall the same or similar basic ideas being presented. I like it!

    We are collecting all this information of course and greatly appreciate all the suggestions being given. Jeff and I have discussed this same general idea a few times already and this thread reinforces a lot of where we were leaning for future product development. What I'm getting at is we are seriously considering all these thoughts.

    While a 5X zoom is optimal, adjustments can always be made. There are lots of factors involved of course.

    Keep tossing out ideas. I personally like the voice activated lens covers!
    I would prefer wide FOV in the lower end. A 2-10x with a FOV like the z6 1.7-10 would be a winner for my personal use.
     

    Palmetto-Pride

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    Just having a manufacturer representative @gebhardt02 on here asking hide members for feedback is a big deal IMO :cool:
    Forums are wealth of free market research on what potential buyers want for manufacturers. The downside is they can get dragged through the mud and go from hero to zero in a minute. I applaud any manufacturer that has the balls to step in the shark infested waters.
     

    Sinned

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    I don't know if feasible but since I'm daydreaming how about a pair of binoculars with a reticle, a spotting scope with a reticle, or maybe just offer an eye piece with reticle for another manufacturer's spotting scope? I can dream can't I, lol...
     

    Guns&WhiteWater

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    I guess I just can’t see the reason for needing more than 15 or so power on a dedicated hunting scope. Possibly 20x if it was used more as a crossover scope or for small game. But I am talking talking about big game like whitetails, and this is where the big hole in the market lies for FF plane scopes. The low end really should be low, with 2.5x to 3x being ideal. Which means that high zoom ratios to reach 20+ power create issues with reticle sizing on the low end. And that’s the problem with using most of the current high end FF scopes for hunting. Illumination helps unless too much of the reticle is lit up because it starts to hinder your vision. Trees are terrible in this regard. So just an illuminated center cross or dot work great at low light. The SHV FF plane version works well but the narrow field of view leaves a lot to be desired. And it’s too heavy and too long and the glass is just kinda blah. Also the LPVO’s I’ve used weren’t too good in low light. Either way, I have yet to look through a high end FF plane scope that had the reticle optimized for the low end of the power range.

    I am aware of the TT hunter version but I’ve never seen one in the wild.
     

    rlsmith1

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    100% agree with what Glass said.

    2.5-15 mag range (more range would be better). This would allow for use with thermal / I2 clip-ons and precise shots to 1k+

    23oz or less. 20oz or less would be preferred even if it means a 36mm objective and 30mm tube. I’m not as set on illumination if it saves weight.

    Short enough to be run on an AR15. This plays into the clip-on discussion too.

    Low profile so a red dot can be offset well.

    I’m not totally opposed to 5mil turrets either. Especially if the reticle has great holdovers at modest magnification.

    Bottom line, this would replace the 1-8 on my 13.9” AR and be run with an offset dot. Clip-on use fairly often. I think this would result in a great hunting scope too
     

    gnochi

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    I’m not totally opposed to 5mil turrets either.
    I am opposed to 5mrad turrets if they're limited turn. I would say 20mrad should be the bare minimum dialing range.

    I'd rather have weight reduced than super awesome low light performance, so smaller objective is directionally OK.
     

    Palmetto-Pride

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    I'd rather have weight reduced than super awesome low light performance, so smaller objective is directionally OK.
    “The bad news is I missed the buck of a lifetime he came out right at dark and I could just barely make out where to place the shot”

    “The good news is my arms aren’t tired from the 6oz I saved on the weight of my scope”

    “If only I had a scope that could have gave me just a little more light”

    😀
     
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    gnochi

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    “The bad news is I missed the buck of a lifetime he came out right at dark and I could just barely make out where to place the shot”

    “The good news is my arms aren’t tired from the 6oz I saved on the weight of my scope”

    “If only I had a scope that could have gave me just a little more light”

    😀
    Lol.

    That said, anything over 36mm is wasted at 5x with 95% of people; 50mm buys you ~6x zoom for 99% of people. The limitation is on the comparison of exit pupil size to the size of your fully-dilated pupil, and there's not much we can do about it. Does 20% additional zoom matter at dusk? Meh.
     
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    Palmetto-Pride

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    Lol.

    That said, anything over 36mm is wasted at 5x with 95% of people; 50mm buys you ~6x zoom for 99% of people. The limitation is on the comparison of exit pupil size to the size of your fully-dilated pupil, and there's not much we can do about it. Does 20% additional zoom matter at dusk? Meh.
    I hear what you’re saying, but sometimes even the tiniest amount of light can make the difference on pulling that trigger or putting the safety back on when it comes to hunting. I know it has for me I will take extra light with a few more oz any day of the week, but that’s just me.
     
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    gnochi

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    I hear what you’re saying, but sometimes even the tiniest amount of light can make the difference on pulling that trigger or putting the safety back on when it comes to hunting. I know it has for me I will take extra light with a few more oz any day of the week, but that’s just me.
    Right - what I meant is that it’s not extra light once the scope exit pupil is larger than your own pupil. All you can do is zoom in a teensy bit further.
     

    SilentSteelCM

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    I hear what you’re saying, but sometimes even the tiniest amount of light can make the difference on pulling that trigger or putting the safety back on when it comes to hunting. I know it has for me I will take extra light with a few more oz any day of the week, but that’s just me.
    In my personal experience using a s&b zenith with 56mm lens and a pm2 us with 50mm is that if it is already so dark to see a real difference between the two im already using a clip on that negates the difference. Hunters who can afford the zco can also afford thermal/I2 if they need it.
    Besides this optic could be still about par with mid tier 50mm scopes in terms of light transmission using a 42mm lens which is enough for most people and better than any lpvo.
     

    Palmetto-Pride

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    Right - what I meant is that it’s not extra light once the scope exit pupil is larger than your own pupil. All you can do is zoom in a teensy bit further.
    Ok I gotcha now. Yes I can agree with that . Sorry I wasn’t picking up what you were putting down earlier….
     
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    rlsmith1

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    I am opposed to 5mrad turrets if they're limited turn. I would say 20mrad should be the bare minimum dialing range.

    I'd rather have weight reduced than super awesome low light performance, so smaller objective is directionally OK.
    I wasn’t saying limit to 5mil, just use 5mil per turn and have a easily visible rev counter. Not sure what you mean by limited turn.

    I’m sure lots would moan about 5mil turrets but they might get past it if it saves enough weight
     

    Wyfox

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    My perfect lightweight hunting scope would be
    2-12×44
    30mm tube
    Illuminated reticle
    Simple reticle with hold overs and wind hold, floating dot.
    Low profile locking elevation turret
    10 mil rev
    Capped low profile windage
    Long enough for long action mounting
    20-25oz range
    For reference my S&B 10x is pretty close to ideal size and weight.
    20210720_123225.jpg
     
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    Squibbler

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    For a hunting scope I prefer only the center dot/portion of the reticle to illuminate.



    Agree, yet respectfully disagree. For POA/POI style hunting, I agree, quickly drawing the focus to the center is what's best. But then hugely disadvantaged when using holdovers, especially with clip-on usage. Full illuminated tree is best for that application, IMO.

    For dawn/dusk (lowlight) situations, without clip-on usage, I actually find the opposite to be true. I would rather have a non-illuminated center with illuminated vertical and horizontal stadia. The illuminated part could allow me to quickly draw center reference, but the non-illuminated center would not obscure the target (which I feel is often the case with illumination in lowlight). So, maybe start the illumination at the .2 mil hashes?? I don't know, I'd have to see it to know. Or is there possiblity of a 2 stage illumination? One to illuminate center only, other to illuminate rest of reticle? Probably dreaming here....
     

    Squibbler

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    Apr 6, 2014
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    Otherwise for illumination I do prefer the multiple on/off indices on the rheostat like on TT's and VO's. I would also prefer a more prominent detent for the off position on the ZCO illuminations. More than multiple times I cruise on by the off position on the ZCO, especially with gloves or below zero temps. It's probably my only complaint after a couple years of use now with the ZCO in the field. Otherwise the ZCO's have been stellar, especially that 420.
     
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    Palmetto-Pride

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  • May 27, 2014
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    In a hunting situation and I’m talking deer hunting during legal shooting hours I have never needed to use hold overs and illumination at the same time. If it’s dark enough to need Illumination I’m probably shooting 200 yards or less and certainly do not need hold overs for that range.
     
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    Wyfox

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  • May 24, 2012
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    Having 1st focal plane retical and dialed down to 2-3x its nice to have the entire reticle or majority of the reticle illuminated. Just the center dot is extremely small if you're dialed down unless its a dual focal reticle/illumination.