Zero changing

[timelinex]

So it seems like every single time I go to the range my 100 hard zero is changing(elevation). It's always within 1 inch. I dont think it's my equipment bc everything is tight, and I doubt the PST is not holding zero, especially since it's always such slight changes. The scope is a 6-24x50 vortex PST, with xtr riings on an egw base.

Weather is always different, but playing with ballistics program, no realistic change in weather moves 100 yard zero more than .01 inches.

I know what your thinking, inconsistent cheek weld. I though it might have been this too, that's why I did two things.
1. Got a karsten cheek piece and now my cheek weld should be consistent, chipmunk cheek style..... To the Bone is to the bone!
2. I made sure to take out as much parallax as possible, and make sure it looks parallax free. As long as it's parallax free there should be no difference in POI, even if cheek weld is slightly off.

The last factor I thought of is mirage, especially since weather is between 70-100F, but at 100 yards it's honestly not a problem, specially for elevation.
What's the next thing to check, or what can it be? Does th-s happen to anyone else, Any suggestions? .3mils isn't a big deal, but zero should be zero.

 

[Wanderlust]

Re: Zero changing

Barrel cleaning/over cleaning? Are you zeroing off your fouling shoot, or after?

 

[timelinex]

Re: Zero changing

I havent cleaned the barrel in 200+ shots so it's not from cleaning(groups haven't opened up). As far as cold bore, it doesn't seem like cold bore has much effect on my barrel. It's a pretty heavy 24inch barrel (savage fcp-k). From my understanding as long as your not overheating your barrel, then anything past first cold bore shot(or first couple if you just cleaned) shouldn't have a changed poi correct? I usually zero off the first 3 shot group,which is always .75moa or under, so that's why I don't cold bore makes much difference.

 

[223man]

Re: Zero changing

So you say you are off 1". Is there any consistency there, I mean is it 1" up, 1" down, dose it go left or right?

 

[timelinex]

Re: Zero changing

When I say 1" I don't mean always exactly one inch, I mean it's always within one inch. As or left right, I usually consider that wind effects so dont include that... As for is there consistency on whether it's always above or below, I haven't been recording that. I will start recording that to see if a pattern arrises, last time I was .3 mil low.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Zero changing

Assuming its not the scope is a big assumption.

That said, it could be you, where you zeroed after shooting for a bit, and you chased the impact around. Then when you return to the rifle you are off.

Our systems are not always as good as we hoped they would be, so there are many factors that could be at work here. A barrel issue, straight up not right, a threading issue at the receiver, again, not exactly right.

The list is pretty long, but i would bet the way you are shooting is a big factor. It was not uncommon to see people chase a zero every day during classes. So whether it is you, the scope or the rifle, well you'll have to go through step by step and eliminate the possibilities until you track down the cause.

 

[timelinex]

Re: Zero changing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Assuming its not the scope is a big assumption.

That said, it could be you, where you zeroed after shooting for a bit, and you chased the impact around. Then when you return to the rifle you are off.

Our systems are not always as good as we hoped they would be, so there are many factors that could be at work here. A barrel issue, straight up not right, a threading issue at the receiver, again, not exactly right.

The list is pretty long, but i would bet the way you are shooting is a big factor. It was not uncommon to see people chase a zero every day during classes. So whether it is you, the scope or the rifle, well you'll have to go through step by step and eliminate the possibilities until you track down the cause.

</div></div>
I admit assuming its not the scope, could lead to trouble. I've just had a scope that doesn't hold zero before and it doesn't seem the same way. The scope that didn't hold zero would just be floating around and inconsistencies would be larger than 1moa. Obviously every situation is always different though.

As for the rest of the system, how could it be the rifle. Unless its something loose, wouldn't any improper fitments or threading issues show up in accuracy/groups rather than changing POI?

I definitely recognize it could be me, and thats why I made this thread. As long as parallax is set right(which i spend a 1-2 min making sure it is) cheek weld and such 'shouldnt' matter because the crosshairs are true. I've videotaped myself so I know its not flinching(its a braked 308 so its not ridiculous recoil). Thats not to say I haven't pulled a shot here and there, but I'm not using those towards finding zero.

You said you see people chase zero every day during classes frequently... Do you see what ends up being their problem? Or are all those things you listed examples of what you've seen.

I guess Im looking for all things to check in my own form/marksmenship before going onto the rifle/scope... So I don't spend hours and replace half my rifle just to find out it was me!
thanks

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Zero changing

Post a video of you shooting -- that is something I am curious to see.

Something does not have to be loose to be bad, a stressed barrel, a poor threading job can move things around and you'll never see it.

 

[223man]

Re: Zero changing

How have you been checking the parallax?

 

[seanh]

Re: Zero changing

how about weather? Yea, I know what the program says, sometimes it's not exactly right. If you're only off about an inch, that little bit could be humidity, air density, temp. How did you get readings for the program?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Zero changing

Weather needs time to act on the bullet, at 100 yards there is not enough time.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Zero changing

Could you be holding different amounts of air in your lungs when you break the shot? Post a picture of a couple five round groups. My vote is inconsistent breathing as you shoot. You have to pay attention or it will throw you off, I still catch myself doing it now and then.

Rich

 

[timelinex]

Re: Zero changing

I will try to get a video on here in a bit.

Thats a very good point though lawnMM, I catch myself not always shooting at the exact time in my breathing cycle. The thing is its not like I hold my breath for the entire shot string. So it would throw off the group as well...

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Zero changing

The first thing the OP needs to do is begin calling his shots and analyze the call/strike corollary. If shots are off call the sight could be suspect, or parallax could be an issue. The only thing any here knows for sure is the bullet went in the direction the barrel was pointed. The OP also needs to make a record of his shots: time, temp, direction, light, wind direction, etc. My shots can easily show an inch dispersion when any condition, or any aspect in my relationship between the gun and ground change. Also, remember that unless the rifle is controlled consistently, from the time the trigger is pulled until recoil has subsided, the angle between bore at rest and line of departure will be more or less angular, which will assure angular error. This is why it's important to develop motor memory, making the position, whatever it is, more consistent shot to shot.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Zero changing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will try to get a video on here in a bit.

Thats a very good point though lawnMM, I catch myself not always shooting at the exact time in my breathing cycle. The thing is its not like I hold my breath for the entire shot string. So it would throw off the group as well... </div></div>

When are you breaking the shot during your breathing cycle? I suggest you establish a nice, repeatable, breathing cycle by just consciously inhaling and exhaling at the same rate for 5-10 cycles. Get a feel for what it feels like when you breath out. Then start breaking your shots at the bottom of the cycle when your lungs are empty. Breathe again, get the cycle re-established, pause it and shoot again.

See if that helps. Then you can start worrying about whether its parallax or anything else. Keep your head down, if you lift your head between shots, that will throw off your group too.

Keep your head down, breathe like I said, see if the group tightens up. If you don't move your head, it shouldn't be a parallax issue.

Rich

 

[timelinex]

Re: Zero changing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will try to get a video on here in a bit.

Thats a very good point though lawnMM, I catch myself not always shooting at the exact time in my breathing cycle. The thing is its not like I hold my breath for the entire shot string. So it would throw off the group as well... </div></div>

When are you breaking the shot during your breathing cycle? I suggest you establish a nice, repeatable, breathing cycle by just consciously inhaling and exhaling at the same rate for 5-10 cycles. Get a feel for what it feels like when you breath out. Then start breaking your shots at the bottom of the cycle when your lungs are empty. Breathe again, get the cycle re-established, pause it and shoot again.

See if that helps. Then you can start worrying about whether its parallax or anything else. Keep your head down, if you lift your head between shots, that will throw off your group too.

Keep your head down, breathe like I said, see if the group tightens up. If you don't move your head, it shouldn't be a parallax issue.

Rich
</div></div>

Haven't had the time to post up video yet but I will.

I shoot at the en of the breathing cycle like your supposed to. What I was saying is there are times I've caught myself not shooting at the end of the cycle. And as noted below, im not dissapointed in group size, but rather POI variations between groups(a.k.a zero).

 

[timelinex]

Re: Zero changing

ok, so here is a video I found.

Take note that it is me doing the snipers hide dot drill. I did 5 dots in a diagonal fashion, and was timing it. So thats why the movement between shots and the rush between shots. If it wasn't timed, I would be holding the trigger longer for the 'follow through'. Also the trigger is an accutrigger, so the jerkiness of initial trigger pull isn't pulling the actual trigger but just moving the inner blade to the ready position.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/skdVHT1j2sA"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/skdVHT1j2sA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Zero changing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will try to get a video on here in a bit.

Thats a very good point though lawnMM, I catch myself not always shooting at the exact time in my breathing cycle. The thing is its not like I hold my breath for the entire shot string. So it would throw off the group as well... </div></div>

When are you breaking the shot during your breathing cycle? I suggest you establish a nice, repeatable, breathing cycle by just consciously inhaling and exhaling at the same rate for 5-10 cycles. Get a feel for what it feels like when you breath out. Then start breaking your shots at the bottom of the cycle when your lungs are empty. Breathe again, get the cycle re-established, pause it and shoot again.

See if that helps. Then you can start worrying about whether its parallax or anything else. Keep your head down, if you lift your head between shots, that will throw off your group too.

Keep your head down, breathe like I said, see if the group tightens up. If you don't move your head, it shouldn't be a parallax issue.

Rich
</div></div>

All,

Breathing is most likely not a problem; and, any thought about it will, just as likely, distract the OP from what's really important to a good result. Simply shoot during the natural respiratory pause.

Zero changes, that's to say, not hitting where aimed is all about minuscule changes in the shooter's relationship with the gun and ground, as well as changes in internal/external ballistics. These changes will have a gross effect at distance shooting since these sort of inconsistencies produce angular error.

Regarding the stock-weld, it should anchor sight alignment; and, it will when it's muscularly relaxed, resting the full weight of the head on the stock. Being cognisant of the other four factors of a steady position, while building the position, will promote good hits, as well as support motor memory development. It's the motor memory BTW that better assures a zero will hold on multiple occasions at the firing line. Of course, environmental conditions which preclude ballistic consistency and/or shooter consistency, such as shooting from a contorted position, will effect shot placement too.

A mental management program can eliminate the shooter's need to worry about any aspect of executing the two firing tasks. One program which seems to work for most of the folks I've trained begins with shouldering the rifle and aligning the sight, without any consideration for a target/reticle relationship. Then, the NPA is adjusted for the desired hold, followed by smooth trigger control, and follow through. Organizing the firing tasks in the step by step manner described will assure nothing is overlooked and nothing overwhelms or distracts the shooter from focusing on the sight and smooth trigger control.

One more thing, the only reason I'm challenging another contributors advice here is that with such advice on "breathing" accepted by a receptive shooter seeking advice on how to do it, the shooter will be thwarted in his progress, since it's not the proper medication needed to treat the ailment, kinda like being given wrong directions to a destination, and then having to spend time to turn around and start all over again.

To the OP I would say consider the on-line training here. Lowlight has credentials which prove he indeed knows how to do it and knows how to teach it too. Thing is, unless the questions posted on this forum are quite specific, using this forum to get ahead in marksmanship will require consideration for the reliability of the source of such answers.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Zero changing

A change on the target indicates a change in the system (and by using the term 'system', I am definitely including the human component). By my definition the components are the mechanical, the environmental, and the human.

The environmental component is always changing, regardless of our notice; but at 100yd, I agree, its effects should be negligible unless the change is big enough to be tugging at our attention.

The mechanical component would be more likely to show effects, but the kind of error a mechanical inconsistency should show would be more random and more frequent than just once at the beginning of each shooting session and then remaning constant throughout the rest of the session. I'd examine the usual mechanical suspects to rule them out, then move on with the diagnosis.

I'm siding rather heavily toward this being a human component problem. Positions and rests may not be getting employed the same from session to session. Distractions (like physical sensations from clothing or support) may be different. Installing a new cheek rest will only help if it actually results in a consistent cheekweld session after session.

I would consider breathing if it resulted in vertical stringing, but not if it is being considered as a reason for a new zero POI without stringing being involved.

Greg

 

[223man]

Re: Zero changing

From what I could see it seemed like your finger was coming of the trigger a little to easy. When you brake the shot your finger should remain on the trigger with it fully depressed to the rear until the recoil is over(follow through). And I would also suggest that you have some one videoing you while they do a walk around of your position so they can get a birds eye view of what is going on. I had my daughter do this for me while I was dry firing, it helped immensely, a real eye opener.

 

[fargo007]

Re: Zero changing

Your right hand is obscured in the video. I'd like to see what you're doing with it from shot to shot.

Particularly where your thumb is and whether or not it is fixed in the same spot every time.

IOW I'm suggesting an inconsistent trigger hand position as a possibility.

--Fargo007

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Zero changing

You're crushing the trigger, you're trigger control from shot to shot is bad.

You're moving around between each shot, using your shoulders to reset.

It looks like you are shouldering the rifle hard too, but it's difficult to tell from this side, but that would account for your vertical too, you have a flinch, jamming your shoulder into the stock which is compounded by the snap on the trigger crush. Watch how your shoulder muscles even on your support side is flexing. You're bracing for recoil.

Lots of bad habits to work with there. Blame you not the rifle .

 

[timelinex]

Re: Zero changing

I wanted to thank everyone for their answers.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're crushing the trigger, you're trigger control from shot to shot is bad.

You're moving around between each shot, using your shoulders to reset.

It looks like you are shouldering the rifle hard too, but it's difficult to tell from this side, but that would account for your vertical too, you have a flinch, jamming your shoulder into the stock which is compounded by the snap on the trigger crush. Watch how your shoulder muscles even on your support side is flexing. You're bracing for recoil.

Lots of bad habits to work with there. Blame you not the rifle . </div></div>
I am moving around because I was adjusting to different points of aim between shots, you should be able to see that I move my entire body as well.

As for the flinch, I really don't see it. I tried slowing it down to see if I react before the recoil and I dont see it. What am I looking for to see the flinch? It seems like I move with the rifle as it recoils, and not flinching before.

I definitely need to practice trigger control.
This is exactly why I made the thread, blaming myself first and diagnosing that before moving onto the rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To the OP I would say consider the on-line training here. Lowlight has credentials which prove he indeed knows how to do it and knows how to teach it too. Thing is, unless the questions posted on this forum are quite specific, using this forum to get ahead in marksmanship will require consideration for the reliability of the source of such answers. </div></div>

I've been wanting to join it for months now. I think I will finally be joining this week. I think I just always end up feeling that it won't help much if I can't have someone looking over me to see if Im applying those techniques right.

 

[ScottyO]

Re: Zero changing

looking for how to breakin a new riffle barrel

 

[doc76251]

Re: Zero changing

I would submit out of the gate that you are way too high on the rifle. You are not a barrel chested fire plug. Drop the bipod 2 -4 notches and get flat. You are way up too high.

Movement: You are all over that rifle. The movement you need for a dot drill is minimal. You are bouncing up and down and side to side. When you barely get settled you "crush" the trigger. A couple of tentative presses of the accutriger are not setting you up for your shot.

Follow through: You have none.

I know you said you were rolling time. You don't need to time anything. You need to take one shot at a time. As a matter of fact you need to run 2 or 3 snap caps on each target prior to a live round. You are wayyyyyy jumpy on the trigger.

One shot, One target.
Concentrate on riding the recoil with the trigger back.
Determine if you are bouncing on the bipod which would account for your excessive movement.

Short version: Put your ammo box 10 yards behind you and walk to get each round. Rebuild your position each time. Call your shot and record it.

.02 from the cheap seats.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[doc76251]

Re: Zero changing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ScottyO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">looking for how to breakin a new riffle barrel </div></div>

Shoot it.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[SScott]

Re: Zero changing

Thanks for posting a video, after I watched it I had some of the same thoughts about you being so jittery, and your need to work on trigger control. I have one of the same faults as you, I feel more confortable with my rifle up high on the rear bag. By watching your video and some of the remarks here, I too am going to work on keeping my rear bag lower. Thanks again for sharing, and save this video, after a few months of practicing, make another video and look at your improvement.
Enjoy,
SScott

 

[timelinex]

Re: Zero changing

Well, finally bit the bullet and joined the online training, guess I'll see some of you guys 'in' there.

Doc, I think you are right. I need to slow down and take my time. I'll try to even get some snap caps like you said.

I see that everyone is saying I'm jerky with the trigger. Can you explain what you mean? Do you mean on the follow through? I totally agree that I should be holding it down, and I did not, so the follow through was bad. But as for jerkiness, once my pad is on the trigger itself, I feel like I do slowly add pressure. I don't just go from no pressure to pressure.

As for the rifle being too high up on my shoulder, I'm not sure if I can get it any lower! It's on the lowest setting of 7", and I do feel like Im laying pretty flat. I guess since I haven't tried a lower bipod maybe Im not as low as I could be.

Edit: After watching the trigger training, I know now what you mean by 'crushing' the trigger. I interpreted it as rapid pressure but you meant it in a different way

 

[SScott]

Re: Zero changing

Here is one of my favorite videos that I first seen posted in 2009 here on the Hide (I just spent the last hour sifting through my old posts to find it).
Watch it a few times, currently you most represent the shooter in the foreground, your goal, all of ours for that matter should be to look similar to the second shooter. He is nice and calm, not taking his head off of the rifle between shots or hunting for the target. I realize you are not taking your head off of the rifle between shots, more of the hunting for the target between shots.
No disrespect intended to anyone but just trying to give you a goal to shoot for.
SScott

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKsCXaGlIkU&feature=player_embedded

 

[timelinex]

Re: Zero changing

That guys all over the place! I know my trigger work was bad, but I at least get behind the rifle as much as I can and usually do not have to readjust unless I'm shooting at different target, like I was. Always, have watched a bunch of lessons and gonna try to implement many things this Saturday.

 

[DCR]

Re: Zero changing

timelinex,
Thanks for making this post. I'm learning a lot from it.

Dave

 

[timelinex]

Re: Zero changing

No problem dave, we are all here to learn!

After watching a bunch of training videos, I have a huge checklist of things I'm gonna change and practice. Is there a certain angle best to video tape from to get the best help? I can do the angle I'm doing now but from the other side, or I think i should be able to do and angle from behind and above me.

 

[VKC]

Re: Zero changing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sunnyside Scott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is one of my favorite videos that I first seen posted in 2009 here on the Hide (I just spent the last hour sifting through my old posts to find it).
Watch it a few times, currently you most represent the shooter in the foreground, your goal, all of ours for that matter should be to look similar to the second shooter. He is nice and calm, not taking his head off of the rifle between shots or hunting for the target. I realize you are not taking your head off of the rifle between shots, more of the hunting for the target between shots.
No disrespect intended to anyone but just trying to give you a goal to shoot for.
SScott


Thanks for posting the video, and pointing that out...very helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKsCXaGlIkU&feature=player_embedded </div></div>

 

[rickp]

Re: Zero changing

Something similar happened to me, however my impacts were consistently at 11 o'clock and it was the scope, and I have a S&B. I sent it off to them and sure enough they found a couple of issues with it.

Something similar happened to a buddy of mine with a Leupold. Like LL said, assuming it's not the scope is a big assumption.

R.

 

[mrjimsfc]

Re: Zero changing

I wonder....You explained that it's the zero that changes not that the group opens up or that your shooting habits good or bad change, just the zero moves up or down a small amount each time you go out shooting. I don't know if you're handloading or not but the only consistent change noted was the weather. You stated that the weather didn't change enough to alter the exterior ballistics <span style="font-weight: bold">but</span> if the bullets you're shooting are not loaded with a temperature stable powder the weather could still be your problem. Some powders will burn at wildly different rates depending on the initial temperature of the powder. Some are incredibly stable across a very wide temperature range. All of the above suggestions for improving marksmanship will help tighten your groups no matter where your zero happens to be but will make little difference with powder burning rates and the effect those rates have on moving the zero up or down. Check your log book and see if the zero moved up or down with the temperature.

 

[timelinex]

Re: Zero changing

I considered it could be the temperature unstable powder since I don't know what southwest ammo uses, but it wasn't consistent with temperature.

On a brighter note, after reading a lot of the lessons and applying the techniques on my last range day, I haven't gotten the recoil down yet BUT zero was dead on the entire time...... It was only one range day so nothing is conclusive yet, but it might be fair to say that It was the nut behind the bolt

it's interesting How bad technique can effect shot placement while not having a bad effect on group size.

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: Zero changing

Southwests ammo is not loaded using temp sensitive powder. I have shot their ammo in everything from 100+ to sub freezing, minimal difference.

If you call Mike and Zach they will share more info with you if you are concerned about the load. But I promise, the load is good to go.