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Off list California sales

Nomad Farrier

Nomad
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 25, 2009
136
30
NE Oregon
Ok guys Ive done some research into selling firearms into CA that aren't on the CA "LIST" via the SSE (single shot exemption). I work for a very well known DA in CA who is VERY pro 2nd Amendment and had the opportunity the other day to sit down with her and talk about the actually legality of completing this sort of transaction. What I was told in a nutshell was basically paperwork wise the SSE transaction will work....... BUT..... if there is ever an inquiry into the firearms history or origination, the previous owner, and both FFL's that had part in the transaction can and will be prosecuted. So if ever the said firearm is stolen, used in a self defense situation, crime, or simply checked by a law enforcement officer and it isn't still in the SSE formation everyone involved is screwed. This alone was enough to scare me off this sale and any others in the future. I feel bad for the CA residents that have to live there under those laws.
 
If an SSE owner could be prosecuted as you say:

if there is ever an inquiry into the firearms history or origination, the previous owner, and both FFL's that had part in the transaction can and will be prosecuted. So if ever the said firearm is stolen, used in a self defense situation, crime, or simply checked by a law enforcement officer and it isn't still in the SSE formation everyone involved is screwed.

then I would currently be in the middle of legal proceedings... because I have had a non-roster / SSE handgun checked by a Sheriff-- all that came up on his terminal is that it was registered to me. After everything checked out we chatted for a bit, he said "have a nice day" and I went back to shooting.

Once a handgun is DROS'd the owner can do whatever work or modifications they see fit to perform so long as the final product remains in a legal configuration for CA. If that were not the case, then why couldn't they prosecute for *any* custom work done to a handgun after the DROS that alters its configuration or parts that weren't present at the time of DROS?

The SSE is only a "workaround" for DROSing new handguns that are not on the safety roster if the purchaser does not have a valid LE exemption-- a technicality that some legislation is trying to remove this session thanks in part to some individuals on the Sacramento & Roseville PD who were using their LE exemption to buy and sell a large number of non-roster handguns at a profit. They were OK for a while until they DROS'd some stuff out of order and the CA DOJ noticed and took a closer look. Thanks in part to their shenanigans there is an assembly bill AB-169 on the table this session that would affect all non-roster handgun transfers (even used PPT sales), SSE exemptions, and LE exemptions.

There have been some concerns voiced on Calguns about non-07 FFL's doing these SSE conversions; some contacts say the FFL needs an 07 to perform this work while a new FFL in Sacramento was advised by the ATF they didn't need an 07 to do SSE conversions because they were all "drop in" parts (then again, this SSE business is much more of a CA DOJ issue than an ATF issue.) Along with the 07 discussion there is some additional discussion if added markings on the firearm are needed for said conversions. Current consensus is the FFL doing the SSE does not need to hold an 07 provided all the parts are "drop in."

There have been thousands of SSE conversions & transfers done in the last several years all across CA; a good friend who is an FFL has done dozens of them. He's even had an audit occur at the time he had several SSE's sitting in his possession during the 10 day waiting period. The auditor took a good look at them but acknowledged they were legal.

It's no secret the CA DOJ doesn't "approve" of SSE transfers as a means of getting around the safety roster... but if they could easily prosecute the FFLs and purchaser as you were advised I think we'd be reading about a LOT of arrests and legal proceedings from FFLs and members on Calguns. The fact that the SSEs are still continuing after several years seems to indicate that while the DOJ might not "approve" of them there is nothing they can do to halt the SSE process at this time. If AB-169 passes however the exemption will come to and end.

What exactly does your DA employer say they could prosecute an end-user/owner under if the pistol has been converted from single shot / SSE to semi automatic after the DROS? As long as the pistol is still in a legal configuration in CA following the conversion (i.e. no threaded barrel, etc) what specific PC(s) would apply to both the involved FFLs and the purchaser?
 
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Kiba,
First off the DA doesn't employ me, she has a business of her own on the side that hires me as a contractor. I didn't get in depth as far as PC violations in my convo with her. The wording I believe she used as to the specific violation was "illegal firearm importation", and "firearm manufacture with proper lic". Don't quote me exactly on that. She did in fact mention that she has heard rumblings that the CA DOJ has it out for FFL's who are not #7's and doing SSE's. Mind you this is a DA who is on the side of all 2nd supporters, she was simply telling me her legal view of the issue through the eyes of the CA laws. The convo with her in regards to my potential 3k sale was scary enough for me to kill the sale. Im not attacking you at all Kiba so don't take offense, just simply telling what I was told by a credible source.
 
Kiba,
First off the DA doesn't employ me, she has a business of her own on the side that hires me as a contractor. I didn't get in depth as far as PC violations in my convo with her. The wording I believe she used as to the specific violation was "illegal firearm importation", and "firearm manufacture with proper lic". Don't quote me exactly on that. She did in fact mention that she has heard rumblings that the CA DOJ has it out for FFL's who are not #7's and doing SSE's. Mind you this is a DA who is on the side of all 2nd supporters, she was simply telling me her legal view of the issue through the eyes of the CA laws. The convo with her in regards to my potential 3k sale was scary enough for me to kill the sale. Im not attacking you at all Kiba so don't take offense, just simply telling what I was told by a credible source.

Well, basically she had fallen into the trap of repeating the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) that the anti-gun forces (within the DOJ) in CA would like everyone to buy into to staunch the ownership of guns. I guarantee you that if any of those jackasses were pinned down and asked to cite the specific PC Code they'd use for said prosecutions they wouldn't be able to. I don't blame you for killing the transaction, but you and your DA friend have just played into the hands of these people.
 
No offense taken and I wasn't attacking you either-- I just wanted clarification and pertinent PC's to have hard data rather than "this could happen if..." musings and hypothetical scenarios. If SSE's were illegal we'd have already seen a large number of both FFL's and purchasers charged-- and we haven't. Certainly if you feel you are at risk selling a pistol here to CA via SSE then that's your decision and I don't blame you; if you feel there is a risk involved then I wouldn't get involved either and find a buyer in a "free" state.

I still don't see how they (CA DOJ) could charge you as the seller regardless as it's the receiving FFL's responsibility to determine roster status & DROS eligibility (either on the roster, off roster with SSE, or off roster with LE exemption.) About 5 years ago I got to see what happened when a friend got anxious and purchased a non-roster handgun on Gunbroker; the dealer was unwilling to DROS it and the seller refused to take it back so it sat on consignment at the FFL for months and months until someone with LE credentials purchased it.

SSE's have been going on for several years here now and I've yet to hear of any issues as long as the FFL has everything in order. The 07 issue comes up occasionally; current consensus from the legal guys over at Calguns is an 07 isn't required as long as the parts are "drop in" and at least one ATF employee helping with the start up of a new FFL said the same when asked.

I have heard firsthand of CA DOJ auditors grumbling about encountering SSE's in 10-day waiting period holds during FFL audits and scrutinizing them and the associated paperwork closely but they admit they're legal the way the law is currently worded.

Regardless, if AB169 passes the SSE goes away... but for now both FFL's and customers are bringing in plenty of new off-roster handguns provided the FFL is willing and the end user is willing to pay a little extra for the SSE equipment.
 
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I've read the Cali DOJ doesn't try to prosecute squat. Nor will they give a legal opinion. They leave it up to the fifty-something DAs in California to decide how they want to interpret the law and who and when they want to prosecute. How reassuring. Gun ownership is like playing dice out here. And this new batch of laws that are sure to pass have me finally looking seriously for a way out of this state.