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10 shot group average

Geno C.

Geno C.

Dirty Carnie
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Oct 24, 2007
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    Wautoma, WI
    I’m starting to do more 10 shot groups for load proofing in centerfire ammo once I get a load I like. I started to do it with rimfires too now. I’d like to see what others are getting and how they are comparing to the 5 shot groups.

    Doing a little ammo checking with my Vudoo, less than impressive so far. But, I have other things to change to try and tighten it up
    AA9A61D4-0483-47C5-93DA-36EA46C83BAF.jpeg
     
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    If you remember, I use the half-third rule to predict results at lesser distances from my 200 yard 50 shot groups.
    Half the distance produces a third of the spread. Look at the 100 yard spread and compare it to the 50 yard spread.
    Interesting, isn't it? ;)

    The larger the sample size, the less likely results will be due to random acts of accuracy.
    The better the quality of the ammunition can be determined.

    As long as you hold a common aimpoint for each group,
    it's very easy to build a composite group from all ten 5 shot groups.
    Another method to produce a measurement of overall spread.
    Same as is used at the Lapua and Eley test facilities.
     
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    Geno maybe yours is less impressive because its the true group at the true distance??

    Just kidding....maybe.
     
    I like real numbers and lots of data. I’m not scared to admit I might have a dud barrel too. Shit happens. I’ll wait for a dead calm day, but I have a good idea of what I should have been shooting for groups and this wasn’t it.
     
    Here are the groups from the other day. Been too windy the last 2 days to do ammo testing. I didn’t do 50 yard groups with the Midas or Tenex
    D63152A7-861F-4B3D-82E2-F58EFFCAD22A.jpeg
     
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    The way you have shot the 50 then the 100 with adjustments in aim point only to keep the groups separated appears to me to be a great idea.... Sure changes my perspective on the (non linear?) size to distance ratio. It is much easier to look at the relationship of the 50 vs 100 group size presented this way. The half - third rule Justin points out looks to be holding up pretty well...... Be interesting to see it done at 50 yard intervals out to 200 - or more - on the same target.
     
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    The half-third rule works Merlin.
    But only from long to short.
    Trying to push short to long isn't quite as accurate.
    Wind effects can be much worse further down range. :(

    I first noticed it when I was reviewing my targets from several years of punching paper.
    I had 50, 100 and 200 yard targets on the same table and the pattern was obvious.
     
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    OP. Those groups just don't seem consistent with Vudoo standards. Maybe it was the conditions. Dont take this personal as I don't know u as a shooter, but did anyone else test ur rifle and get similar results?
     
    No offense take. I am plenty capable of shooting smaller. I am in a decent standing on the 5x6. I also shot a couple of my very accurate and consistent centerfire rifles verifying I wasn’t having an off day.
     
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    I know there isn't specifically an accuracy guarantee but almost all v22s I've seen have done a good bit better. Uve tested some quality ammo too
     
    I'm curious, what were the conditions?
    Temp, wind speed and direction?
    I ask because those results look like those that show up
    when I have to deal with wind caused turbulence.
    More specifically quartering created swirls coming across the roofline or berms.
    On my targets I record wind speed and direction to help understand my results.
    When I see that I had a quartering tailwind and a large dispersion on target
    it's due to the rolling turbulence moving across the range.
    No way to predict where a projectile will hit. No matter how good the ammo. :(
     
    Temp was in the low 50s sunny with a 5-8 mph wind at the 3. The wind is virtually blocked from the 100 to the 60 yard line. Almost all of the 50 yard is exposed. I’ve put 10a of 1000s of rounds through this range with a rimfire
     
    I willfully be testing it without the 22 takedown can. I will test bare muzzle, and also with the 3 other cans I have
     
    You can only know from the collated image how you did as a shooter. In my opinion the greater the group size, the more cheekweld, body position and mindset matters.

    For cartridge testing I would do 3 shot groups and then collate them and spot my own faults and diagnose wind effects.


    I use 10m air rifle targets at 50m and air pistol targets at 100m and beyond and then record them into TargetScan app.
    I can easily see separate groups and a collated group from the app.

    I keep my own file for each gun, cartridge and distance, for example "Sako Quad CCI SV 100m"
    This group was shot in 6-7mph from 10. Few times the wind circulated to other direction, see target #4..
    Screenshot_20200422-131747_TargetScan.jpg


    The group sizes are not shown in the collated view but can be seen from the individual scans. I have asked the author to add group size also to collated view for much easier use.

    Screenshot_20200422-132125_TargetScan.jpg


    The overall group size can be seen in the main view.
    Screenshot_20200422-133225_TargetScan.jpg
     
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    Somewhere in the Vudoo thread Ravage88 says he never shoots groups with a can.
     
    I think weights at the end of barrel will act as tuners.
    They can make or break accuracy.
    My Quads groups also get smaller with a can.

    Does it mean that the gun by itself is broken if the accuracy can be improved by external piece?
    Cannot really say.
     
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    orkan said:
    Five-shot groups fired at 50yds from one of my custom 40x repeaters through a Thunderbeast 22 takedown. Suppressed rifles can shoot quite well, if they're built right.

    Click to expand...
    Really Dude, you’re going to keep this going?

    Why don't you enthrall us all about all the things you do when you build a rifle? Oh, that's right, you don't actually build rifles. Nor do you design 40X conversions or chambers....you're merely trying to sell someone else's work.

    MB
     
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    Geno C. said:
    I like real numbers and lots of data. I’m not scared to admit I might have a dud barrel too. Shit happens. I’ll wait for a dead calm day, but I have a good idea of what I should have been shooting for groups and this wasn’t it.
    Click to expand...

    Geno,
    In centerfire's I shoot multi 3 shot groups at 100yds. Until a I fine a load I like, then 5 shot groups at 100 and 200yds. In rimfire I shoot multi 5 shot groups at 50yds. IMO 10 shot groups a waste ammo. You have twice the chance of effect from wind conditions, and gun handling. I see in your groups, you have vertical in all of your 100yds groups. This could be gun handling, or maybe wind if is come in or out. your 50 yds groups are good, but vertical in some of them. You did not say what type shooting you going to shoot. I find the ammo my guns like, zero at 50 yds, and shoot steel at long range. I'm never going the shoot groups on steel. I'm looking for hits on small steel.
    Mark
     
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    Geno,
    One more thing, I never get dead calm day. So I have to learn to shoot in the wind.
    Good shooting
    Mark
     
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    MarkCZ said:
    Geno,
    In centerfire's I shoot multi 3 shot groups at 100yds. Until a I fine a load I like, then 5 shot groups at 100 and 200yds. In rimfire I shoot multi 5 shot groups at 50yds. IMO 10 shot groups a waste ammo. You have twice the chance of effect from wind conditions, and gun handling. I see in your groups, you have vertical in all of your 100yds groups. This could be gun handling, or maybe wind if is come in or out. your 50 yds groups are good, but vertical in some of them. You did not say what type shooting you going to shoot. I find the ammo my guns like, zero at 50 yds, and shoot steel at long range. I'm ever going the shoot groups on steel. I'm looking for hits on small steel.
    Mark
    Click to expand...
    That's a really good observation. Geno, are you considering the vertical element of a crosswind, and how huge a difference it can make even on a shift from 1 O'clock to 11 O'Clock?

    Here's a video that might help explain the effect of Aerodynamic jump at short ranges with a 22lr.
     
    I have no first hand experience with Vudoo rifles, so I can’t answer to how they shoot suppressed. I do know that other suppressed rimfire rifles have no problems shooting suppressed.

    I have a custom 40x with a factory barrel cut to 16.5” and threaded. I shoot it with a Thunderbeast takedown. It will shoot in the .1’s often and the .2’s very frequently. The can has to be cleaned every 3-400 rounds, but this rifle will flat out shoot suppressed. If everything with the rifle, Smith work, and suppressor are correct, then a rimfire will shoot excellent through a can. Anyone who says otherwise is welcome to come shoot my rifle/suppressor combo

    btw, this is not an isolated event. I know of several suppressed 22lr’s that shoot crazy tight groups

    Therefore if you are having trouble grouping suppressed, I would first clean the can. Then I would try another can just for luck. Beyond that, the problem is likely not in the can. That will allow you to look elsewhere in diagnosing the problem.


    56B0B87E-3075-463A-AA11-4DE1D0B9A6DE.jpeg
     
    Doing lot # testing with the suppressor attached is also very important to getting the best performance. Switching ammo types can have a major effect. As long as the rifle or the suppressor don't need a gunsmiths attention, it should be able to be made to shoot well suppressed.
     
    dddoo7 said:
    I have no first hand experience with Vudoo rifles, so I can’t answer to how they shoot suppressed. I do know that other suppressed rimfire rifles have no problems shooting suppressed.

    I have a custom 40x with a factory barrel cut to 16.5” and threaded. I shoot it with a Thunderbeast takedown. It will shoot in the .1’s often and the .2’s very frequently. The can has to be cleaned every 3-400 rounds, but this rifle will flat out shoot suppressed. If everything with the rifle, Smith work, and suppressor are correct, then a rimfire will shoot excellent through a can. Anyone who says otherwise is welcome to come shoot my rifle/suppressor combo

    btw, this is not an isolated event. I know of several suppressed 22lr’s that shoot crazy tight groups

    Therefore if you are having trouble grouping suppressed, I would first clean the can. Then I would try another can just for luck. Beyond that, the problem is likely not in the can. That will allow you to look elsewhere in diagnosing the problem.


    View attachment 7305528
    Click to expand...

    You're right, you don't have first hand experience with Vudoo and neither does Greg, but it's apparent to many that you both have an agenda, it's visible in many places. This has been the case for quite some time as I've watched your name participate in Greg's agenda. Don't really care, it won't affect anything. You see, I was curious after I watched Greg be dishonorable again, so I reached out to the CEO of Zermatt; I know the story and so do others on this forum (and other forums), so you're both making a fool of yourself. Greg has no inside track, he has no arrangement with Zermatt other than being a dealer and frankly, he's embarrassing them and he should be embarrassing himself. So, keep making the backhanded remarks and be certain I'll respond to them. I'm quite certain Greg will chime in as a hurt little victim after he reads this....I could write the script. And by the way, the little blurb you wrote the other day about Greg's "honesty" and how he's dropped manufacturers in the past for whatever reason, that didn't help him much at all.

    MB
     
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    RAVAGE88 said:
    You're right, you don't have first hand experience with Vudoo and neither does Greg, but it's apparent to many that you both have an agenda, it's visible in many places. This has been the case for quite some time as I've watched your name participate in Greg's agenda. Don't really care, it won't affect anything. You see, I was curious after I watched Greg be dishonorable again, so I reached out to the CEO of Zermatt; I know the story and so do others on this forum (and other forums), so you're both making a fool of yourself. Greg has no inside track, he has no arrangement with Zermatt other than being a dealer and frankly, he's embarrassing them and he should be embarrassing himself. So, keep making the backhanded remarks and I'm quite certain Greg will chime in as a hurt little victim after he reads this....I could write the script. And by the way, the little blurb you wrote the other day about Greg's "honesty" and how he's dropped manufacturers in the past for whatever reason, that didn't help him much at all.

    MB
    Click to expand...

    Wow-- I make a comment about how well my suppressed 40x shoots and get attacked like this? I don't know what you have against me, but my statement had nothing to do with you. You have twisted my statements to be about you.

    To the OP, if you have any other questions for me about my personal experience with suppressed rimfire please PM me. I'm not gonna deal with this.
     
    dddoo7 said:
    Wow-- I make a comment about how well my suppressed 40x shoots and get attacked like this? I don't know what you have against me, but my statement had nothing to do with you. You have twisted my statements to be about you.

    To the OP, if you have any other questions for me about my personal experience with suppressed rimfire please PM me. I'm not gonna deal with this.
    Click to expand...

    You've been trained well little grasshopper and if you mentioned Vudoo, your statement has everything to do with me. The only thing twisted is your agenda.

    MB
     
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    First, thanks for the input. The only 22s I don’t shoot suppressed are classics. Something odd about shooting this the other day is I went to clean the van and it was filthy inside after 400 rounds with an almost muddy crap. I’ve put a bit over 6,000 rounds through the 22 Takedown and this is the first time it’s been like this. Usually it’s dry and crusty.
    237F7E59-2C77-42A4-9E89-B5DEE212456D.jpeg
    F339B9CC-2241-4FC5-9730-D177A51322B9.jpeg

    This is far from my time doing this. I have shot this location for close to 20 years. I know how certain winds affect the groups there. I will be trying this again with a dead calm morning, and shooting back to back with my quad just to verify.

    I’m not overly concerned just yet. I figured I’d post my findings here for informations sake. I’m in the 5x6 thread so my ability to shoot a decent groups should be backed up a little. The groups were not caused by my shooting capability. Some winds might have got a couple groups. Not all of them by any stretch of possibility.

    If I can’t get this thing to shoot, such is life. I’ll have another barrel spun up and move on. It will be a disappointment if it shoots well without the can and not with it though
     
    Dots are 1/2 OD and 1/4" ID. My method is center to center between the two farthest apart holes. Been doing it like that for years...before the internet existed.

    Yeah, I'd be happy to measure with calipers. How do you want me to measure? Center to Center, out side edge and subtract some number between .221 and .224?
     
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    Suppressors do not themselves affect the flight path.
    I think any dead weight added to the barrel will affect barrel harmonics and thus change group size and POI.

    You cannot predict how it changes and it is a variable whereas ammo lot is.

    If anything even as the suppressor fills up with powder remains there will be difference. I have not been able to notice it but 100% sure it is there.


    I have thought of adding weight to my suppressor/barrel end to see how it effects grouping and what I saw with Anschutz was very clear change in POI but I would want a graph how the POI moves dependent on weight. I think there will be a node-like accuracy waves with rifle's "preferred" weight with also being determined by perhaps partly by muzzle velocity.

    As long as the weight is fixed firmly, the rifle/bullet/barrel does not care if the weight comes from magnetospeed or suppressor.

    But the facility where we have test benches is closed at the time.
     
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    Kisssofdeath said:
    Dots are 1/2 OD and 1/4" ID. My method is center to center between the two farthest apart holes. Been doing it like that for years...before the internet existed.

    Yeah, I'd be happy to measure with calipers. How do you want me to measure? Center to Center, out side edge and subtract some number between .221 and .224?
    Click to expand...
    We just want you to admit you poked the holes with a pen!!
     
    Kisssofdeath said:
    I shoot ten 5-shot groups when I do accuracy testing.
    View attachment 7305720View attachment 7305724View attachment 7305728View attachment 7305730View attachment 7305736View attachment 7305739
    Click to expand...

    Apparently you havent read this thread.
    www.snipershide.com

    Range Report - Group size means little

    There's a thought I've been developing over the last several months. It goes something like this; Spoiler alert: I've done nearly 1000 rounds worth of 30-50 shot sample size tests in .223, 6.5cm, and .300prc in the last few months and the number is somwhere between 20 and 40 depending on...
    www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
     
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    Kisssofdeath said:
    Dots are 1/2 OD and 1/4" ID. My method is center to center between the two farthest apart holes. Been doing it like that for years...before the internet existed.

    Yeah, I'd be happy to measure with calipers. How do you want me to measure? Center to Center, out side edge and subtract some number between .221 and .224?
    Click to expand...
    I just like decimals.
     
    2aBaCa said:
    Apparently you havent read this thread.
    www.snipershide.com

    Range Report - Group size means little

    There's a thought I've been developing over the last several months. It goes something like this; Spoiler alert: I've done nearly 1000 rounds worth of 30-50 shot sample size tests in .223, 6.5cm, and .300prc in the last few months and the number is somwhere between 20 and 40 depending on...
    www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
    Click to expand...
    Would that apply to 22 rimfire?
     
    Kisssofdeath said:
    Would that apply to 22 rimfire?
    Click to expand...
    In my opinion in the rimfire we test how bad a lot is, not really how good. We cannot have the best, we take the least worst.

    That said I document my tests into electric scoring system and check stuff like mean and collated groups so I do use more data than just max spread.

    Whatever method you use the most important part is calling out the bad shots when testing lots. Without good calling it is impossible to test lots.

    Like kod recognized bad groups from shoulder pressure. A new shooter would never ever see that as anything but as a strange grouping.
     
    Here is a thread I started a while back that didn't gain any traction, but I think it's a good example of what I am personally capable of for 10 rounds at 100 yards (50 consecutive shots):

    www.snipershide.com

    5X10 100 yard challenge

    I have been thinking about starting this up for a while, so I decided to give it a go today to see if it draws any interest. If so maybe we can make it a sticky. Not to take the place of the 6X5 thread which I will keep going as long as there are people who want to shoot it, but rather another...
    www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com

    This is one of my better targets from the above thread. It shows that sub moa is very possible @ 100 yards (honesty I demand it from the rifle and ammo).
    FA8C9E60-47CD-4E36-8C11-4CD71FEB63C8.jpeg
     
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    Once I get my next rimfire up and running I'll be bringing that thread back. I really enjoy shooting 50 rounds consecutively on 1 target to see if I can hold it together...
     
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    jbell said:
    Here is a thread I started a while back that didn't gain any traction, but I think it's a good example of what I am personally capable of for 10 rounds at 100 yards (50 consecutive shots):

    www.snipershide.com

    5X10 100 yard challenge

    I have been thinking about starting this up for a while, so I decided to give it a go today to see if it draws any interest. If so maybe we can make it a sticky. Not to take the place of the 6X5 thread which I will keep going as long as there are people who want to shoot it, but rather another...
    www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com

    This is one of my better targets from the above thread. It shows that sub moa is very possible @ 100 yards (honesty I demand it from the rifle and ammo).
    View attachment 7306260
    Click to expand...
    This is a bit better than I had would have expected.
     
    From what I've seen on Lapua's website of ammo tests shot ina tunnel, 0.5 - 0.6" is a pretty good 10-shot, 50 yard group.
     
    That has to be wrong.... Their facility must suck large. I see 100 yard groups posted here with regularity of that size.

    Maybe they (Eley) are not being honest about their ammunition's accuracy. If it is true "our" posters/shooters are just better shooters than the machine mount rest that Eley has.....

    Tongue FIRMLY in cheek. :LOL:
     
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    Merlin O said:
    That has to be wrong.... Their facility must suck large. I see 100 yard groups posted here with regularity of that size.

    Maybe they (Eley) are not being honest about their ammunition's accuracy. If it is true "our" posters/shooters are just better shooters than the machine mount rest that Eley has.....

    Tongue FIRMLY in cheek. :LOL:
    Click to expand...


    Group size.... the OTHER size measurement some guys lie about.... :)

    I 'm a lousy shot compared to the internet. :)

    Seriously.... its partly a matter of the BEST group ppl ever shot, vs. the AVERAGE groups ppl shoot.
     
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