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6.5 CM OCW Torture Test - Dracos Barrel

Subwrx300

Subwrx300

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Jan 15, 2014
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Cedar Springs, MI
I posted earlier thread about Dracos 22" Creedmoor barrel but I've been feeling like I never gave it a fair shake for you guys. I tested only two factory ammo types and only a small set of handloads (ELDM) with Varget, not to mention mixed lots of Hornady brass with at least 6-7 firings. That said, I settled on doing a new test after the barrel has broken in (900 rounds+ so far) and testing a larger variety of bullets. Here is the test:
  • Bullets tested:
    • Berger 130 AR Hybrid,
    • Hornady 123 ELDM,
    • Lapua Scenar 123,
    • Lapua Scenar 139,
    • Sierra Matchking 123 HPBT,
    • Sierra Tipped Matchking 130
  • Virgin (unfired) Starline Brass 6.5 CM Large Rifle with CCI BR2 Primers. Seating depth set to 2.808" OAL for all rounds. Brass was first resized with RCBS full length, then trimmed/chamfered/deburred to 1.910" before loading.
  • Rifle: Savage MSR10 Hunter, Hyperfire Trigger, Nightforce ATACR 4-16x, factory everything else (except barrel of course). Approx. 800 rounds through barrel prior to testing. Barrel scrubbed completely bare/no copper this morning prior to test (separate video/post coming on this topic)
  • 125 rounds in a single session (similar to PRS/Match round count): 5 foulers/sighters to start then 6 separate OCW Tests with about 15 minutes between each 20 round string (including shooting the string). Each OCW was fired in Round Robin fashion (low to high, high to low, middle to middle, then last was random) so heat was averaged out over all charge levels.
  • Field Condition shooting: All rounds fired prone with rear bean bag, shooting mat and Atlas bipod.
  • Environment Conditions: Temp 45 degrees, 6-10 mph wind was from 6-7 o'clock on a fairly shielded 100 yard range.
  • Sequence of Fire:
    1. 123 ELDM - Smallest Group: .495 MOA, Avg: .657 MOA, Avg to Center: .237 MOA
    2. 130 AR Hybrid - Smallest Group: .585 MOA, Avg: .666 MOA, Avg to Center: .258 MOA
    3. 123 SMK - Smallest: .597 MOA, Avg: .691 MOA, Avg to Center: .260 MOA
    4. 139 Scenar - Smallest: .641 MOA**, Avg: .855 MOA, Avg to Center: .365 MOA
    5. 130 TMK - Smallest: .379 MOA, Avg: .671 MOA, Avg to Center: .285 MOA
    6. 123 Scenar - Smallest: .582 MOA, Avg: .713 MOA, Avg to Center: .265 MOA
Results are interesting (to me at least). One of the main selling points of this barrel system is their ability to maintain accuracy and dissipate heat. I fired a lot of rounds over the course of 90 minutes and, while it was colder, the barrel would cool relatively quickly. During one of my breaks between strings, I used a different bolt gun firing 10 rounds in about 60 seconds and the barrel was definitely hotter than the Dracos after a 20 round string. Even with 120 rounds down the tube, one of the smallest groups fired occurred when the barrel was dirty and hot.

Another point: Remember that this test represents 30 different loads (6 bullets X 5 charges each) and of all the groups, 30 of 30 four-shot groups were sub-MOA and 20 were sub .75 MOA, all while shooting round robin, breaking cheekweld, rebuilding NPA and starting new between each volley of 5 rounds. Here is another breakdown by # of groups by size:
  • Out of 30 total groups:
    • 2 Groups less than .5 MOA (130 TMK and 123 ELDM)
    • 18 Groups Between .5MOA and .749 MOA
    • 10 Groups between .750 and .999 MOA
    • 0 Groups at or over 1MOA
Overall, is the Dracos system accurate? Yes.
Does it maintain sub-MOA? Definitely.
Sub three quarter MOA? Yes.
Sub 2/3 MOA? With the right load, most likely.
Sub Half? Possibly. With a better shooter, almost certainly a sub-half MOA barrel.

As long as they continue to honor their warranty, I think this barrel system is a winner. It's consistent and has sped up considerably since new; 123 ELD's with different lot of H4350 started at 2870fps and ended up over 2950fps after about 150-200 rounds.

Hope you get some value from this and good shooting! Here are photos of the targets:
Dracos OCW H4350 - 123ELDM 123SMK 130TMK Agg.PNG

Dracos OCW H4350 - 130ARHybrid 139Scenar 123SMK Agg.PNG
 
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HAHA! Just sent you a PM! must have crossed paths while typing. One thing to note: the Starline brass has fairly low case volume (50.5-51 CC water volume after firing vs Hornady at 52.1 CC) so depending on the brass you run, you may need to go up/down slightly to hit the nodes. The 123 ELD was about .3-.5 grains higher charge to hit same node using Hornady brass as compared to the Starline.
 
Excellent write up!!! please keep us informed of future progress. Do you think I'll give the 140 Elds and 147s a go???

And how about some pics of your rig. I plan on picking up the MSR 10 LR in 6.5CM next month....hell of alot of gun for $1700
 
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Just for kicks, I decided to hand measure the largest and smallest groups (to confirm OnTarget set group sizes correctly)and to my surprise, the single largest group (1.02MOA by OnTarget) was ACTUALLY .98MOA! That makes all 30 groups by definition SUBMOA. Doesn't change the outcome but I thought it prudent to at least point that out.

Editing post to reflect that...?
 
To confirm results above, I've picked the best loads from each string and will reshoot to verify precision. Follow up test will be as follows:

Rifle will remain dirty. I don't want to have coppering in factor into results and if Berger's and Hornady shoot better, barrel was still coppering in when their string was shot. If sizes stay consistent, good to go. If they get worse, dirty bore may be at limit between cleanings.

Also, I'll be making note of the impact location for each round in the groups to compare first 4 shot group size to above results.

(2) 5-shot groups each at 100yds:
  • Berger 130 Hybrid AR 43.3gr H4350 @2.808
  • Lapua 139 Scenar 40.8gr H4350 @ 2.806
  • Lapua 123 Scenar 43.6gr H4350 @ 2.810
  • Sierra 123 MatchKing 44.1gr H4350 @ 2.810
  • Sierra 130 Tipped MatchKing 42.4gr H4350 @ 2.810
  • Hornady 123 ELDM 43.7gr H4350 @ 2.806
Plus 5 rounds each:
  • Berger 130 Hybrid AR 42.4gr H4350 @2.808 (checking for 130gr sweet spot near the TMK load)
  • Sierra 130 Tipped MatchKing 42.2gr H4350 @ 2.810
  • Hornady 123 ELDM 42.5gr H4350 @ 2.806 (sighters and compare to prior test)
Velocity testing will happen with these after picking best two loads from above. SD on prior ELDM loads has hovered around 4-6 with freshly annealed brass and 12-15 after 3-4 firings. Will post results tonight if I get some time.
 
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Subwrx300 said:
HAHA! Just sent you a PM! must have crossed paths while typing. One thing to note: the Starline brass has fairly low case volume (50.5-51 CC water volume after firing vs Hornady at 52.1 CC) so depending on the brass you run, you may need to go up/down slightly to hit the nodes. The 123 ELD was about .3-.5 grains higher charge to hit same node using Hornady brass as compared to the Starline.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I have a bunch of mixed hornady brass as well so once I start testing again ill get some new brass when I narrow it down.
One thing I have noticed about the barrels is the gas block does not sit at 12 oclock so to float the gas tube you need to bend it
 
White Mamba said:
Thanks. I have a bunch of mixed hornady brass as well so once I start testing again ill get some new brass when I narrow it down.
One thing I have noticed about the barrels is the gas block does not sit at 12 oclock so to float the gas tube you need to bend it
Click to expand...
Mine sits just off center also. Maybe a millimeter or two. Clears my handguard but only just. I may Dremel out part of the handguard to add clearance. It's a tight fit that's for sure!
 
What an awesome build, rifle, and set of testing. Hats off to you Subwrx300, not many people step up and put out great data for others like this.

I have one question for you, did you weigh the barrel before installing? I've seen the numbers on their site change a few times.

Please keep us posted as your round count increases. Really looking forward to see if their "5x barrel life" claim has any veracity. Even 2x would be huge, especially with the warranty!
 
I did actually. I put up a review about a month ago (Review linked here) but here is the photo of the scale. Original barrel was 18" medium contour (.75 through most of barrel with fluting between chamber and gas port. Almost exactly 1lb heavier even though it's nearly twice the diameter and 4" longer. Happy with it so far but I'm am doing my part to test their barrel life claims: 900+ rounds and counting after about a month and change. If it still shoots sub minute after 3000-4000 rounds (July/August at the current rate), I'll be impressed. If not, I'll be testing their commitment to honor their warranty.
 

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Does anyone have experience shooting suppressed with these Dracos barrels?
I've seen 3 of them (1 mine, 2 for my brother) consistently throw a single flier, usually on the first shot of the group.
It seems to have something to do with their special gas block-thing and the added suppressor back pressure.
They (seem to) shoot great unsuppressed, but who wants to do that?

Notes: We both use an adjustable gas key to control gas volume.
I've tried every position of the adjustment screw on the gas block, including removing the gas block entirely and shooting single shot without it. -- It shot like complete dogshit like that, but shot fine unsupressed in the same configuration.
 
SupressYourself said:
Does anyone have experience shooting suppressed with these Dracos barrels?
I've seen 3 of them (1 mine, 2 for my brother) consistently throw a single flier, usually on the first shot of the group.
It seems to have something to do with their special gas block-thing and the added suppressor back pressure.
They (seem to) shoot great unsuppressed, but who wants to do that?

Notes: We both use an adjustable gas key to control gas volume.
I've tried every position of the adjustment screw on the gas block, including removing the gas block entirely and shooting single shot without it. -- It shot like complete dogshit like that, but shot fine unsupressed in the same configuration.
Click to expand...
My suppressor arrives in the next 2 to 20 months, pending the ATF. Lol. I'll be shooting it and can report back then, although the thread will likely be dead by then.

On a related side note, I have noticed my barrel is VERY consistent in terms of POI related to shot sequence: first shot 1/4-1/2 moa left and level, 2nd shot 1/4-0 moa left and 1/2moa high, shots 3-5 are usually 0/0 and 5-10 wander about the center of the group.

I have noticed about a 1/4-1/2 moa lower POI after barrel is hot (10-20rounds) until it cools down a bit. Stays very close to 1/2moa lower than zero through 30-40 consecutive rounds.

The gas block on this barrel is perhaps my single biggest disappointment. I'm very surprised/confused as to why they couldnt add a single set screw to adjust gas volume at the block rather than resorting to an adjustable gas key. Gus runs super dirty and this would likely improve barrel consistency even further.

I've been trying to reach them for the last week to see about ordering a spare gas block to try making a DIY adjustable gas block by drilling/tapping a small set screw to limit gas. If it works, I'll report back.
 
Subwrx300 said:
The gas block on this barrel is perhaps my single biggest disappointment. I'm very surprised/confused as to why they couldnt add a single set screw to adjust gas volume at the block rather than resorting to an adjustable gas key. Gus runs super dirty and this would likely improve barrel consistency even further.

I've been trying to reach them for the last week to see about ordering a spare gas block to try making a DIY adjustable gas block by drilling/tapping a small set screw to limit gas. If it works, I'll report back.
Click to expand...

I agree. I like the small footprint of the gas block, but making it truly adjustable at the block would be a major improvement. IME, the big screw they have on the front of the block to adjust "dwell time" does fuck-all. At least suppressed, I can have it all the way out or all the way in and nothing changes re: gas delivery, ejection, etc.
 
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Agreed, the only thing stopping me from buying one is actually the gas block. I asked if they could retrofit a .936 Superlative or SLR and they said no. I don't understand why this couldn't be done though, maybe the original custom shop Teludyne Tech could do this?
 
Potss said:
Agreed, the only thing stopping me from buying one is actually the gas block. I asked if they could retrofit a .936 Superlative or SLR and they said no. I don't understand why this couldn't be done though, maybe the original custom shop Teludyne Tech could do this?
Click to expand...
It's because of the way the barrel is sleeved. The gas block on their system is unique in how it attaches to the barrel: slides in from the side like a dovetail and is bolted into sleeve with 3 small screws. I'll find some pictures and post.
 
Had an interesting call with Dracos/Falcor Defense today. After discussing options to get a spare gas block (which they don't believe they can as "gas blocks are made 1-to-1 for each barrel"), the CS rep said they are working on a new design for the gas block.

Essentially, the feedback here and from other customers has been heard and they aren't happy with the performance of the current gas block adjustment (i.e. dwell time adjustment). They want to redesign it so that the gas port bleeds more into the expansion chamber rather than mainly into the gas tube. This *might* mean they are also going to incorporate adjustable flow mechanism.

Additionally, I mentioned that the current 3-groove barrel core may be hindering their sales as many guys on here and elsewhere prefer 4, 5 or 6 groove barrels as they are "proven" as main offering in most 6.5 barrels. I'm not sold on the 3-groove design yet simply because there is a TON of bearing surface and fewer lands to help create a tight seal and keep gas from leaking past any imperfect bore tolerances. While I don't have any scientific proof, my anecdotal experience seems to bear this out to some extent.

With specific bullet types, I see different accuracy with 5-shot groups, depending on rounds since last cleaned. With a squeaky clean bore, Hornady ELDMs average around +-1/2MOA but after about 100 rounds groups open up to 1-1.5MOA due to flyers. However, 123 SMKs shoot okay from clean bore (-+1moa) but tighten up considerably after 75-100 rounds grouping around .6-.7moa and stay that way for another 200+ rounds.

My theory is that with thinner/softer jacket bullets, after barrel accumulates fouling, some bullets are "skidding" through the rifling slightly causing odd flight and flyers. The ELDMs have an SD of 8 but at distance the groups can exhibit huge amounts of vertical dispersion (1-2MOA total vertical) which would not be explained by muzzle velocity but could be explained by lower BC of deformation on the bullets.

Just a theory but no way to prove it without swapping to a similar 5 or 6 groove barrel (which I happen to have here as of today). Will post results.
 
SupressYourself said:
Does anyone have experience shooting suppressed with these Dracos barrels?
I've seen 3 of them (1 mine, 2 for my brother) consistently throw a single flier, usually on the first shot of the group.
It seems to have something to do with their special gas block-thing and the added suppressor back pressure.
They (seem to) shoot great unsuppressed, but who wants to do that?

Notes: We both use an adjustable gas key to control gas volume.
I've tried every position of the adjustment screw on the gas block, including removing the gas block entirely and shooting single shot without it. -- It shot like complete dogshit like that, but shot fine unsupressed in the same configuration.
Click to expand...

Very interesting. I have had this barrel since the new year and have been scratching my head regarding my first round shots out of my mags.

It is very common for my first round to end up about 1” low compared to the rest of the group. I have tried loading the 1st round in different ways into the chamber but still normally shoots low.

Not sure what to think now since it’s not just my barrel having first round fliers

I have been shooting Sierra 142’s and thinking to go to the 123’s for a little more speed.

Chad
 
Subwrx300 said:
They want to redesign it so that the gas port bleeds more into the expansion chamber rather than mainly into the gas tube. This *might* mean they are also going to incorporate adjustable flow mechanism.
Click to expand...

That would be great. Hopefully the new block is compatible with the existing barrel.

When I inspected my block closer, I see that from the barrel to gas tube is a straight-shot. The hole going to the "dwell chamber" is almost 90 degrees to this and is a smaller hole. With the large dwell time adjustment screw completely out, I shot my air compressor into the gas hole on the block. Like 95% of it went down the tube, with maybe 5% coming out the large adjustment screw hole. Based on that, I can't see how this "dwell chamber" does anything at all.
 
Triggs75 said:
It is very common for my first round to end up about 1” low compared to the rest of the group. I have tried loading the 1st round in different ways into the chamber but still normally shoots low.
Chad
Click to expand...

Are you shooting suppressed?

On my brothers 260 barrel, the first shot is consistently 1" high with the 123 a-max. It think it's more like .5" high with the 130 ELDM.
On my 6mm, it seems to go any-which direction. I'm mostly shooting 87 v-max.
 
Received a call back from Dracos yesterday evening and the current plan is to simply modify the block not the attachment system so they think it will be backwards compatible with the old design. Not guaranteed but would make sense that they provide solution for existing customers if at all possible.

No ETA for availability but they are hoping to have samples done for testing and evaluation over the next month or two. I'll be checking in with them periodically to see when production becomes available or when we need to send barrels back for retrofit.

Fingers crossed!
 
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Great write up by the OP. I was surprised to see the accuracy of all loads tested. I certainly haven’t found anything quite as accurate in my 260 REM. My groups have been plagued by the first round high. After that shot it tends to shoot quite well with H4350 and 130g ELDs. What’s interesting is that it seems to be more severe with lighter faster bullets. With the 123 ELDs the first shot is 1.5 -2 MOA high. The 130s is almost exactly 1 MOA high. I’ve tried 130 Berger OTMs and the first round isn’t high, it can be anywhere depending on the powder load. But it is always separate from the rest of the group. I’ve tried damn near everything to figure it out including an entirely new upper receiver and handguard. Another interesting thing is it shot fantastic when I removed the gas tube and dwell chamber and suppressor and ran it as a single shot. Gonna pull my F-ing hair out.
 
I wanna see a comparison of a conventional heavy contour barrel vs Dracos in which a sequence of shots fired through each with everything being equal, and then measure the temp of the INSIDE/chamber of the barrel.
Eg say.. Les Baer .308 vs Dracos .308, fire 30 rounds same ammo through each in 15s, then measure the inside temp of each barrel.

Or am I missing the point? Is the point supposed to be that these will outperform a steel barrel of the same weight? Because Im more than skeptical these will outperform a steel conventional barrel of the same contour/O.D. ....
 
Forgetful Coyote said:
I wanna see a comparison of a conventional heavy contour barrel vs Dracos in which a sequence of shots fired through each with everything being equal, and then measure the temp of the INSIDE/chamber of the barrel.
Eg say.. Les Baer .308 vs Dracos .308, fire 30 rounds same ammo through each in 15s, then measure the inside temp of each barrel.

Or am I missing the point? Is the point supposed to be that these will outperform a steel barrel of the same weight? Because Im more than skeptical these will outperform a steel conventional barrel of the same contour/O.D. ....
Click to expand...
I'll be testing something very close to this. I've got a heavy barrel 20" 6.5CM Aeroprecision barrel. I'll be testing it next week most likely. If I can find a good thermometer, I'll be able to check temps before and after say 20-40 rounds.

While it isn't a 1.1 contour like the Dracos, it's 1.180 tapering to .9 just before the gas black and stays .875 forward of block. Will also be able to test POI shift when heating up.
 
Forgetful Coyote said:
I wanna see a comparison of a conventional heavy contour barrel vs Dracos in which a sequence of shots fired through each with everything being equal, and then measure the temp of the INSIDE/chamber of the barrel.
Eg say.. Les Baer .308 vs Dracos .308, fire 30 rounds same ammo through each in 15s, then measure the inside temp of each barrel.

Or am I missing the point? Is the point supposed to be that these will outperform a steel barrel of the same weight? Because Im more than skeptical these will outperform a steel conventional barrel of the same contour/O.D. ....
Click to expand...

That definitely is the point. Much better heat dissipation should equal much longer barrel life. I don’t have hard evidence, but I believe it does work. It’s just something that’s too easy for the average joe to test and therefore if it doesn’t work someone would have called bullshit on it long ago. Right now none of that matters at all to me. I see it as a side benefit that will show itself down the road. The biggest reason I bought this is their other major claim. Increased barrel rigidity, less barrel whip, and extreme accuracy. Long barrel life don’t mean shit if it don’t shoot. So..... anyone besides the OP actually get theirs to shoot? I mean half MOA or better?
 
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Coyote Kev said:
. Long barrel life don’t mean shit if it don’t shit So..... anyone besides the OP actually get theirs to shoot? I mean half MOA or better?
Click to expand...

I'm curious about this too. Granted, gas guns are A LOT harder to tune for consistency and the shooter plays a huge role in accuracy.

Hopeful that more guys with these barrels can chime in with more several groups on paper, rather than the typical "mine shoots .xx all day long."

I'm a little over 1300 rounds on this barrel and it's going pretty strong. Will be posting follow-up test at 2000 rounds (May'ish).
 
Here's a sample across 3 different factory loads (103 eldx, 105 bthp match, 108 eldm) and 4 different hand loads (H4350 and 87 v-max) for my 6mm Creed. It would shoot amazing if not for the consistent presence of at least one flier.

WP_20180302_002 1.jpgWP_20180302_003 1.jpgWP_20180302_005 1.jpgWP_20180309_003.jpgWP_20180309_002.jpg

Unlike @Coyote Kev it doesn't (seem) to be always on the first shot.
 
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Triggs75 said:
Very interesting. I have had this barrel since the new year and have been scratching my head regarding my first round shots out of my mags.

It is very common for my first round to end up about 1” low compared to the rest of the group. I have tried loading the 1st round in different ways into the chamber but still normally shoots low.

Not sure what to think now since it’s not just my barrel having first round fliers

I have been shooting Sierra 142’s and thinking to go to the 123’s for a little more speed.

Chad
Click to expand...

This is very similar to what I am experienceing. Except mine are 1 inch high. This is with a suppressor shooting 130g ELDMS. you should load up some 123s and see what happens. I found that with lighter, faster bullets the first round is even higher. More like 1.5 to 2 inches. Also you should load a 10 round mag and shoot 4 then wait 5-10 min for it to cool and shoot 4 more. Even though that 5th shot was loaded into the chamber the same as shots 2-8, mine would once again put that 1st shot high. It doesn’t seem to take long for whatever is causing this to cool off and then repeat the same cold bore shift. Ive tried everything, including sending it back to Dracos. They sent me a new one. It does the same thing.
 
Coyote Kev said:
That definitely is the point. Much better heat dissipation should equal much longer barrel life. I don’t have hard evidence, but I believe it does work. It’s just something that’s too easy for the average joe to test and therefore if it doesn’t work someone would have called bullshit on it long ago. Right now none of that matters at all to me. I see it as a side benefit that will show itself down the road. The biggest reason I bought this is their other major claim. Increased barrel rigidity, less barrel whip, and extreme accuracy. Long barrel life don’t mean shit if it don’t shoot. So..... anyone besides the OP actually get theirs to shoot? I mean half MOA or better?
Click to expand...

I’m anxiously wanting these to be the end all, be all. Especially the 300 Win Mag. For the time being, I have more trust (1 223 barrel personally and anecdotal beyond that) in Proof’s CF offerings than I do in the Dracos
 
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Is this a new build? Could it be something else other than the barrel. I thought one of the main selling points of this barrel is the cold bore shot should be the same as a hot barrel. I just bought a 6.5 CM for an AR10 build. This is my first AR10 build. I've heard they are little harder to tune than the average AR15.
 
So, hard to find data on the Dracos barrels. Still deciding on which barrel (DRACOS or PROOF) and caliber to put on my new (attempting lighter weight) AERO M5 build. This then bolt then trigger, want the best semi I can afford to build.
Thanks, this helps the process of selling 'myself' on the Straightjacket concept.
 
If I had to do it over again I would go the 6.5cm JP route with an adjustable gas block.
 
For lightweight it isn't a question really, the Proof will be lighter. The real advantage of the Dracos is supposed to be stiffness and barrel life. It seems the gas system might be negating the benefits of the first, and we've yet to get confirmation on the 2nd.
 
So as an update: barrel has about 1700 rounds now. I briefly played with an Aeroprecision 20" and quickly found out just how good, no, GREAT the Dracos barrel is at handling heat. For comparison, I can fire 20-30 rounds in less than a few minutes and hold the barrel indefinitely. The accuracy stays virtually the same even with a healthy and hot string of 20+ rounds. Wait 1-2min and the barrel is dropping back to normal air temp.

By comparison, the AP barrel is good for 5-10 rounds, then it opens up from 1/2-3/4 to about 1-1.5. And if I try to hold the barrel after anything approaching 15 rounds, I'll remove fingerprints. I have to wait over 10-15min to get barrel cool enough to shoot another 5 rounds.

The gas system does leave something to be desired when it comes to adjustability, however it appears Dracos is working on a new gas block to remedy that issue.

It does have periods where it doesn't shoot great but I've figured out that it needs to be stripped clean of most copper every 150-200 rounds it so. I use wipe out foam which is awesome for this. Here's my "5min" cleaning method: pull boresnake twice, fill bore with WipeOut foam, stick it in the corner overnight, push two patches next morning and one boresnake to finish. Total time spent handling rifle is 5min max. Cold/clean bore hits POI/POA with cold dirty bore so no issues there.

Bore does show some signs of throat erosion (maybe .008-010" or so) but it doesn't seem to be hurting accuracy or consistency. Biggest complaint is truly the gas system but I'd rather have a dirty accurate rifle than a clean rifle that heats up too quickly.

@Jsaint I'm not sure which way I'd go if given the choice between Dracos and Proof. I don't have any experience with Proof barrels in an AR platform but am ALMOST ready to pick one up just to test against Dracos. If weight is only factor, Proofs are lighter, but I really think there is something to this heat dissipation concept that is working in the Dracos. Proofs are said to be very similar or same in that regard so perhaps someone else can post torture test with Proof over long session.

I'll be repeating the torture test at 2000 rounds with 12 five shot groups shot consecutive to see if a sub MOA load stays sub minute for 60+ rounds. Same at 4000 rounds.
 
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Coyote Kev said:
This is very similar to what I am experienceing. Except mine are 1 inch high. This is with a suppressor shooting 130g ELDMS. you should load up some 123s and see what happens. I found that with lighter, faster bullets the first round is even higher. More like 1.5 to 2 inches. Also you should load a 10 round mag and shoot 4 then wait 5-10 min for it to cool and shoot 4 more. Even though that 5th shot was loaded into the chamber the same as shots 2-8, mine would once again put that 1st shot high. It doesn’t seem to take long for whatever is causing this to cool off and then repeat the same cold bore shift. Ive tried everything, including sending it back to Dracos. They sent me a new one. It does the same thing.
Click to expand...
I've thought a lot about this. Are you running a muzzle brake or device or some kind? I only ask because I recently took off my brake and after putting it back on the barrel, my first shot started to go way left/up then group then Low right then back to center.

I took the brake off, retorqued with lower pressure (10-15lbs) and it came right back to normal. This might have something to do with their construction as the brake is kinda of pinning both the barrel and the shroud together and if it moves slightly from cold to warm barrel, could explain the shift. Luckily, my shift isn't that big: .3 left/high of group center typically. Also about .25 moa total lower impact after 12-15 consecutive rounds but again, it's predictable (for me at least) so I don't sweat it.

Can you try shooting without brake or thread protection? Just to rule out torque issue?
 
As it stands so far with what little I can gather on Dracos barrels it seems if you don't run a suppressor your good but the implication of a possible gas block re-design pending may be the icing on the cake.
I still find myself on the edge for this and Think 260 REM is the caliber of choice for me considering reloading options.
I may just say @#$% it and toss a BA barrel on it and wait to see how Dracos looks next year. By then you should have done ALL my research lol.
I really planned this build as long 600+ range capable but having looked into 600 yard or longer ranges seems the travel might cut into the ammo funds as well.
Who knows I might build a boltgun in the fall instead, this one was really a hedge against any future regulation restrictions on scary black guns with evil silencers unreasonably gigantic clipazines with custom triggers. (Also, where do you find those much lauded heat seeking bullets????)
:p
 
Thanks for the test results Subwrx300, looking forward to the 2000 and especially 4000 round tests! I am also very excited for a possible gas block redesign as that seems to be the main (only?) issue at the moment.
 
I thought I'd chime in on this one. I may be a newbie here, but I do currently own 4 rifles fitted with a Teludyne Tech StraightJacket barrel system. They are the creator of the dracos barrel design. In my opinion, it is magic. Heat dissipation is amazing, accuracy is outstanding, and the ability to maintain these characteristics during extended periods of fire is unmatched. My 77/22 cut groups to quarter sized at 100yds, even after 100 rounds. My .308 is nuts, absolutely nuts, older generation stainless steel jacket, recoil is beyond tame, and you run out of bulls eyes to open up. 300 win mag, let's just say if you had one, you'd shoot yours as much as I do mine. Hundreds of rounds at a time and the shoulder eats it right up. I have picked up a little mirage on hot days, but back the scope down and it reveals POI didn't change. Now my AR, again, fantastic recoil management, fantastic heat dissipation, weight management is great, accurate, oh boy, it's accurate. I shot different ammo all day to find a weight/brand that is like to purchase and store in bulk; after what was seriously about 250 rounds fired in 5 round groups, I still managed to squeak out 5 in 3 holes with some black hills. Blah blah. Your gas block dilemma, if I'm not mistaken, falkor added their own gas block in order to make the barrel system available to anyone and everyone via mail order and your local smith, I am not familiar with it's operation. The StraightJacket barrel system uses a fully adjustable gas block, so I would not see one having a problem shooting suppressed, unsuppressed, or all day of either.
20180312_152009.jpg
20180312_142411.jpg
 
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When you say fully adjustable, do you mean the TT uses a more traditional set screw or detent gas block that allows you to control the amount of gas allowed into the tube? Instead of falkor's larger/smaller chamber? Do you happen to know if TT is still using that design? Last time I spoke with them I believe they indicated they were using the same gas system as Falkor/Dracos now.

Also, what is the round count on your .300 win mag?
 
Yes, set screw adjustable. Sorry for my terminology. As far as i know, the Teludyne Custom Shop is using the same one I have. My upper was purchased almost 2 years ago, but I still frequent the shop and speak with Glen regularly. Nothing has changed that I know of. Win mag started life as a 1st gen Sendero with about 10 down the pipe when I got it, these days she's creeping up towards 1000. That may be low by standards here, But I've only had that one a year, and 1000 rounds is more than some of my friends firein a lifetime.
 
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Very interesting, well keep us updated AMGtuned, especially on the round count!
 
AMGtuned said:
Yes, set screw adjustable. Sorry for my terminology. As far as i know, the Teludyne Custom Shop is using the same one I have. My upper was purchased almost 2 years ago, but I still frequent the shop and speak with Glen regularly. Nothing has changed that I know of. Win mag started life as a 1st gen Sendero with about 10 down the pipe when I got it, these days she's creeping up towards 1000. That may be low by standards here, But I've only had that one a year, and 1000 rounds is more than some of my friends firein a lifetime.
Click to expand...
Can you snap a picture? If this is the same as the Dracos block, it's not actually adjusting gas flow diameter but dwell time. And in discussion with Dracos (and a few other owners experience including mine) it doesn't offer the range of adjustment that it was designed to for reducing gas pressure at key. That's the reason they are looking to redesign.

It's not that the rifle doesn't function properly, bit that it runs very dirty and stays over gassed regardless of set screw position (with Dracos block.) Falkor version might be different. I'm curious if that's the case.
 
Potss said:
Very interesting, well keep us updated AMGtuned, especially on the round count!
Click to expand...
I will do that. I can say that my 700 tac .308 was built by Alan Adolphsen, the creator of the StraightJacket, and it was used as a demo gun in its early years. Round count on that has to be creeping to 10k, no lie.

Subwrx300 said:
Can you snap a picture? If this is the same as the Dracos block, it's not actually adjusting gas flow diameter but dwell time. And in discussion with Dracos (and a few other owners experience including mine) it doesn't offer the range of adjustment that it was designed to for reducing gas pressure at key. That's the reason they are looking to redesign.

It's not that the rifle doesn't function properly, bit that it runs very dirty and stays over gassed regardless of set screw position (with Dracos block.) Falkor version might be different. I'm curious if that's the case.
Click to expand...

I will remove handguard and take a photo for you this evening. Working now.
 
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I know it's been a while and I'm sorry to those following my response. Subwrx300 I've attached a couple photos of my gas block. From what I understand, the screw limits gas flow. I know this is a different system than used on the falkor barrels: that it works for what you're looking for, not certain.
20180524_170029.jpg
20180524_170004.jpg
 
AMGtuned said:
I know it's been a while and I'm sorry to those following my response. Subwrx300 I've attached a couple photos of my gas block. From what I understand, the screw limits gas flow. I know this is a different system than used on the falkor barrels: that it works for what you're looking for, not certain.
View attachment 6906858View attachment 6906859
Click to expand...
That is very different than what is currently on the Dracos Falkor barrels. I like that much more as it seems like it would work as intended to limit flow. Hopefully Falkor figures out a new block that is reverse compatible with older styles.

Huge thanks for sharing!
 
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