April 19, 1995..........bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, Oklahoma City.........25 years ago today.........
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- Thread starter Marinevet1
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I was a senior in high school sitting in class 12 miles away. The explosion shook the building. A girl sitting in the desk next to me lost her father in the blast. Such a tragedy?
I'll never forget I was driving to Miami from Orlando for a few days work listening to Rush.....same recollection as when I was alerted to 9-11 planes into the World Towers. Surreal experiences. Only dif was cell phones were not the norm back then so I was captivated via the radio for all of it until that evening when I could get in front of a tv.
Lots of unanswered things about that event and lots of very interesting "coincidences".
I've been there and it is a God awful thing to see......
We had only been in Wi. for 3 weeks, when this shit happened. All the adults and children. Just F!
Mac
Mac
I've still got 1st cousins living there, my aunt and uncle now passed on. I remember waiting all tensed up to hear if my uncle was still alive after the bombing was reported. 4 hours later, I knew I still had a living uncle...
I remember, too well.
And I can still get bent waaayyyy the f out of shape when people "hero-ize" t.m., especially when I see them do it on the Hide.
I remember, too well.
And I can still get bent waaayyyy the f out of shape when people "hero-ize" t.m., especially when I see them do it on the Hide.
And since we're on the topic of April 19th:
April 19
Lexington/Concord- shot heard round the world
Janet Reno et al burn down the "compound" at Waco
Ok City Bombing
April 20
Columbine HS
Deepwater Horizon
Anything else? I've heard this is some high holiday on the satanist calendar? Don't know about that one....
Lexington/Concord- shot heard round the world
Janet Reno et al burn down the "compound" at Waco
Ok City Bombing
April 20
Columbine HS
Deepwater Horizon
Anything else? I've heard this is some high holiday on the satanist calendar? Don't know about that one....
I'm refusing to live in the past, especially about fervent memorials to mindlessly delusional mass atrocities. The dead cannot be helped no matter how heart wrenching the manner of their demise. We couldn't help them then, even less so now. I lost friends on 9/11, so did many of us, but all of that has to remain in the past.
Raise your heads, look to the future, and make it better. We are better than that, so be the better.
Greg
Raise your heads, look to the future, and make it better. We are better than that, so be the better.
Greg
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My father (now retired from FHWA) worked in the Murrah building from 89-February 95. We got damn lucky. He's lived with survivor's guilt most of his life. It took him almost a decade to go see the memorial. Lost dozens of close friends. Shit deal all around.
It was totally eclipsed by 9/11 and it's interesting how few remember it anymore really.
It was totally eclipsed by 9/11 and it's interesting how few remember it anymore really.
Oklahoma City .......so much anger
Waco...... so little anger
Both building were full of innocent people....
Both buildings had women and children in them...
The people in Waco were murder by the federal government
The people in Oklahoma City were murdered by a man upset about the federal government killing innocent people......
Waco...... so little anger
Both building were full of innocent people....
Both buildings had women and children in them...
The people in Waco were murder by the federal government
The people in Oklahoma City were murdered by a man upset about the federal government killing innocent people......
April seems to be the month where a lot of shit goes down...
Constant vigilance folks... If you own a handgun, there should be no reason why it is not on you in a readily accessible position when you are out and about.
Constant vigilance folks... If you own a handgun, there should be no reason why it is not on you in a readily accessible position when you are out and about.
The innocent people in OKC were murdered by the federal gov't's actions. Push a man far enough... there are consequences.
It was a chickenshit attack by chickenshit pussies. Any potential argument in their favor went right out the window when they blew up a daycare center in the process.
The same can be said for the Waco attack.....
What's really fucked up about that aspect of the bombing was that there was a rumor that McVeigh was clueless about there being a daycare in the building and would have chosen a different building if he knew otherwise, but it was revealed by his partner that they both knew there was a daycare there and didn't care.
Amazing how people can ignore the subtle but significant differences and claim it was same same...
Now, please understand that I do not approve of either party's actions.... Do not lose sight of that.
in Waco, after the innocent people were attacked by government force, and were beseiged....... they chose to face the government force and stand against them, and chose to keep those children there in the face of what came. They had sufficient evidence to believe a force that would go in a window armed against them would likely do it again, considering they saw armorered cars and a tank..... outside, while being barraged by loud music from helicopters flying over..... (A scene as insane as the village attack in Apocalypse Now, helicopters blaring music going into the attack)
And they were given opportunities to leave or the children could leave, a choice.
In OKC, the mothers who left their children in the daycare had no such forewarning, nor were they given the opportunity to take their children out before the bang....
And the non-governmental workers there and the innocents there on business had neither the forewarning nor opportunity to leave.
They were not allowed to make a choice.
Somewhat a significant and perhaps subtle difference.
Because the player chose to target innocents who were allowed no choice, versus
choosing selected players who were participants in the earlier event, his actions created the higher levels of anger most see today.
Just as the majority of you would be angry if somebody killed your family member innocently going to the post office to mail your bills, when the killer was mad at post office employees because of a previous action against the killer by p.o. Employees, justified or not.
Subtly different ?
Significantly different ?
life is tough.
tough enough when you are smart.
even tougher when you are stupid.
Now, please understand that I do not approve of either party's actions.... Do not lose sight of that.
in Waco, after the innocent people were attacked by government force, and were beseiged....... they chose to face the government force and stand against them, and chose to keep those children there in the face of what came. They had sufficient evidence to believe a force that would go in a window armed against them would likely do it again, considering they saw armorered cars and a tank..... outside, while being barraged by loud music from helicopters flying over..... (A scene as insane as the village attack in Apocalypse Now, helicopters blaring music going into the attack)
And they were given opportunities to leave or the children could leave, a choice.
In OKC, the mothers who left their children in the daycare had no such forewarning, nor were they given the opportunity to take their children out before the bang....
And the non-governmental workers there and the innocents there on business had neither the forewarning nor opportunity to leave.
They were not allowed to make a choice.
Somewhat a significant and perhaps subtle difference.
Because the player chose to target innocents who were allowed no choice, versus
choosing selected players who were participants in the earlier event, his actions created the higher levels of anger most see today.
Just as the majority of you would be angry if somebody killed your family member innocently going to the post office to mail your bills, when the killer was mad at post office employees because of a previous action against the killer by p.o. Employees, justified or not.
Subtly different ?
Significantly different ?
life is tough.
tough enough when you are smart.
even tougher when you are stupid.
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Difference between remembering the past and living in the past. I think about guys I knew when I drive down streets named after them. Maybe I'm wired differently.
The US Government hasn't had much compunction against killing innocent men, women, and children when it suited its needs.
www.history.com
Firebombing of Dresden
A series of Allied firebombing raids begins against the German city of Dresden, reducing the city to rubble and flames, and killing as many as 135,000 people.
www.history.com The US Government hasn't had much compunction against killing innocent men, women, and children when it suited its needs.
Firebombing of Dresden
A series of Allied firebombing raids begins against the German city of Dresden, reducing the city to rubble and flames, and killing as many as 135,000 people.
Not the first time that's been brought up. My response is always the same...shrug.
There may have been less motivation for the Allies to firebomb Dresden, had there not been the Blitz, the V1 and V2 attacks on London. I don't put much credence in the comment of "Despite the horrendous scale of destruction, it arguably accomplished little strategically, since the Germans were already on the verge of surrender". That comment was made in hindsight, with no skin in the game and not reflective of the reality at the time, looking forward. It's that "crystal ball" thing. Plus, look at how many Germans fought to the bitter end. Hitler youth were being sent out in front of Soviets and Allies en masse, only to be slaughtered. The end was not realistically in sight until news of Hitler offing himself was deemed credible and Germany formally surrendered. After the formal cessation, there remained German guerillas that fought well into 1946. Personally, I feel the majority of the responsibility for Dresden falls on the shoulders of the Nazis. Just the same as the responsibility for Hiroshima/Nagasaki falls on the Japanese government at the time.The US Government hasn't had much compunction against killing innocent men, women, and children when it suited its needs.
Firebombing of Dresden
A series of Allied firebombing raids begins against the German city of Dresden, reducing the city to rubble and flames, and killing as many as 135,000 people.
Let me sort thru all your thoughtful And concise remarks and break it down for you.......
The building at Waco was full of innocents....
The building in OKC was full of innocents....
The Opfor in both cases had the option to not attack......
In OKC the OPFOR was a deranged person.....
In Waco the OPFOR was the United States government.......
forgive me for hold the United States government to a higher standard....
that’s as simple as I can make it.......
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You gotta be ready to take it if you're willing to dish it out
You missed the point. The peoples anger is greater at OKC because....
The peoples anger at Ruby Ridge, Waco, Tuskegee Syphilis study, and more, has not been taken personal enough for the greater number to hold the U.S. Government to the higher standard it should be held to.
Is that clearer ?
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Different perspective & another reason to remember 4/19/95 OKC
I could go off on a pages long tangent of cause and effect, good vs evil, etc centered around OKC. I remember it well, like many other major events.
I was driving to work in my Chevy K30 listening to talk radio when it came across.
What's never brought to light is that this one evil event & the way our gov chose to respond is continuing to cost us and future generations, both $'s & freedom!
Not exactly a trust inspiring signal our gov is proud to share with us, but as a result of OKC our gov & it's employees, although not obvious are essentially working in hardened forts surrounded by security moats to protect them from us!
In my opinion this is in the same vain as wanting to disarm citizens while surrounding themselves with armed protection details. Exception being, the above is completely institutionalized with no opposing view and largely unknown to the General public who is paying for it.
My best conservative guess would be cost resulting from OKC at near 250 billion to date and counting, probably more in tax dollars/deficit.
Before you call me crazy think about this:
Sounds pretty inocuous, legit even. Almost like their protecting themselves from a foreign enemy. That wording was changed after 911 & this project was from 2009, but think about it WTF is blast protection going to offer against a plane hmm? Trust me the anti terrorism standard has very little to due with a foreign threat.
I could go off on a pages long tangent of cause and effect, good vs evil, etc centered around OKC. I remember it well, like many other major events.
I was driving to work in my Chevy K30 listening to talk radio when it came across.
What's never brought to light is that this one evil event & the way our gov chose to respond is continuing to cost us and future generations, both $'s & freedom!
Not exactly a trust inspiring signal our gov is proud to share with us, but as a result of OKC our gov & it's employees, although not obvious are essentially working in hardened forts surrounded by security moats to protect them from us!
In my opinion this is in the same vain as wanting to disarm citizens while surrounding themselves with armed protection details. Exception being, the above is completely institutionalized with no opposing view and largely unknown to the General public who is paying for it.
My best conservative guess would be cost resulting from OKC at near 250 billion to date and counting, probably more in tax dollars/deficit.
Before you call me crazy think about this:
- It was OKC not 911 that resulted in every new and retrofit Fed building since, to be built with Blast level spec's
- The Blast spec's were written based on OKC
- I have first hand experience with this, having worked with people that actually did the studies on OKC and wrote the specs based on them. This was in the 2011 time frame and it was crystal clear these specs had almost zero influence from 911. OKC was the topic & standard upon which specs were based.
- Blast spec construction can easily add 30-40% to total construction cost
- 25+ Billion a year for Fed gov construction x 25 years x 30% cost increase = a Fuck load of our $ to protect them from us.
Sounds pretty inocuous, legit even. Almost like their protecting themselves from a foreign enemy. That wording was changed after 911 & this project was from 2009, but think about it WTF is blast protection going to offer against a plane hmm? Trust me the anti terrorism standard has very little to due with a foreign threat.
sorry for the dribble remark I let my frustration take hold.....
I just don’t understand why one is perceived to be a bigger crime than the other I’ve seen this on this board and quite a few other boards when you break it down to its simplest forms like I did above it seems easy to me to pick the bigger crime......
They’re both murder
You and i see the same thing. The government screws the people, and as long as they look different, act different, or think different, and arent of the greater people, for too long, the government will continue to murder those people and not be held accountable.
And, it is wrong,
And accounting is past due.
Will remove my last sentence above, I dont need to offend one of us. We good ?
They are both murder, yet the gov chose to do what they did, knowing there were innocent children inside. The patsys for OKC were too stupid to understand who was behind OKC an why they wanted it done. That simple issue seems to elude many people. If you think those two guys were the ones who cradle to graved that B/S,... you have no clue as to how things really work when an agenda is ran. People are expendable when defining an end game agenda. Don't ever forget that simple fact.
Like I've always said,...in confusion there is opportunity,.... an no one knows that better than those running a game, on the American people. You would be surprised by the amount of so called sheep dogs that can't grasp the concept,...
Like I've always said,...in confusion there is opportunity,.... an no one knows that better than those running a game, on the American people. You would be surprised by the amount of so called sheep dogs that can't grasp the concept,...
We just finished constructing a facility for a government agency that had to comply with the blast requirements and it added significant cost to the building.
Dresden was a British operation... even if the 8th Airforce participated. Arthur "Bomber" Harris.The US Government hasn't had much compunction against killing innocent men, women, and children when it suited its needs.
Firebombing of Dresden
A series of Allied firebombing raids begins against the German city of Dresden, reducing the city to rubble and flames, and killing as many as 135,000 people.
Tokyo was the U.S. operation. Curtis LeMay who learned from Harris. And within about 10 days took out 10 cities before running out of Napalm incendieries.
But that was war against foreign powers who attacked us and declared war on us.
Not that the government doesn't have a monopoly on lethal force... but Dresden isn't proof of it.
Sirhr
A friend of mine was in OK City as a newly minted EMT on that day, his first day on the job. His truck was one of the first ones on the scene. He only lasted a year in the job, and a lot of it had to do with his first day...
Also see: That murderous, psychopathic cunt Madeleine Albright talking about killing Iraqi babies. And basically everyone overlooking what the ussa is helping saudi arabia do right now in YemenThe US Government hasn't had much compunction against killing innocent men, women, and children when it suited its needs.
Firebombing of Dresden
A series of Allied firebombing raids begins against the German city of Dresden, reducing the city to rubble and flames, and killing as many as 135,000 people.
LaMay, took it to another level when he had weather men an engineers point out the best spots to start first. Then hit a handful of other spots to cause the fire storm to self feed.
In the immortal words of rahm immanuel, “Never let a crisis go to waste”. Fuck that piece of shit
His genius was to strip the B29's down and fly in at 5,000 feet... because the jetstream over Japan didn't allow any kind of precision and limited payload. He removed guns, defenses and crewmembers to add bomb load.
He had statistical analysis to guide his missions. He is the only person in the AAC who measured "Units of target destroyed vs. crew losses." He completely gutted something like 65 cities in a few weeks before Hiroshima. The term "Bouncing Rubble" came out of his operations.
His statistical analysis team ultimately ended up running Ford Motor Company... and his number 1 whiz kid was Robert McNamara.
But what LeMay did he learned from Bomber Harris. Who learned his art in the 1920's using air power against primitives in Iraq. "Sow the wind... reap the whirlwind..." -- Bomber Harris.
BTW, I love LeMay! Who never said "Bomb them back into the stone age..." It was assigned to him by a reporter. Fake news.
Sirhr
Am I incorrectly stitching too many points of info together in thinking you are saying that McNamara was with LeMay at Ford ?
Or, was it just his statistical analysis group that went to Ford after the war and LeMay/McNamara never went to Ford ?
Suppose I could Google/Wikipedia it, but would love to hear your answers and maybe point me in the right direction of a good book....
It didn’t hurt that he was bombing cities made primarily of rice paper in bamboo........
No... After WW2, the Statistical Analysis Unit that LeMay used (they had all been Harvard Business School Instructors at wars' outbreak and created a new unit for the Army... LeMay embraced it fully) stuck together. They decided that rather than go back to Harvard, they would offer themselves to industry and would go to the one company that needed them more than any other. Ford Motor Company.
Ford was a mess. In the whole organization, there were about 25 college-graduates. They used to pay their bills by weighing invoices from suppliers.... and sending money based on how much the stack of invoices weighed. And letting the supplier figure out if there was a positive or negative balance. The company had no IDEA if they were profitable... losing... no idea if their products were any good. So the statistical analysis 'whiz kids' came into Ford and 'fixed' things. McNamara was one of those whiz kids.
LeMay went on to create (and command) SAC. And I think organized the Berlin Airlift, but I may be wrong on that.
McNamara and his whiz kids turned Ford around. They created the Falcon and the Mustang. They introduced seatbelts. FInancial controls. P&L statements. They saved Ford. In 1961, McNamara became the first CEO who was not a member of the Ford Family. About a month later, he quit (and left behind millions in stock options) to become JFK's SecDef. And brought his "Whiz Kids" to the Pentagon. The result was everything from Graduated Response to the M16 to the Cuban Missile Crisis response... and Vietnam. A 'By the numbers' War.'
LeMay retired and ran for VP. And was an NRA board member and shooter all his life. He helped introduce the M16 to the DoD, BTW.
LeMay and McNamara were at each others throats when LeMay was Air Force Chief of Staff and McNamara was SecDef. But it was a good thing LeMay's views didn't prevail or we would be living in trees and throwing rocks at each other.
Read Iron Eagle... the 'bio of LeMay. He is an amazing guy. Farm kid from Ohio who worked his way through OSU working in a foundry if memory serves. Set records for long range navigation... Brilliant.
McNamara is one of the most repellent and yet intriguing people in the 20th century. Before he died he was the person I would have liked to have lunch with more than any other in the world. Watch Errol Morris' "Fog or War" which is free on Youtube... incredible documentary.
Cheers,
Sirhr
P.S. Douglas Brinkley's "Wheels for the World" is an amazing book. PM me and I'll send you a paper I did on McNamara and VN. Never bothered to submit for publication, but I probably should have.
Yes, but when the paper and wood burned away... the entire cities would show drill presses and milling machines and punch presses sticking up from the ashes. Every home was making components for the war industry.
He knew what he was doing. He did not have to hit the Mitsubishi plant. He needed to wipe out the 5,000 homes that were mini-factories feeding the Keiretsu with components. Women sat in their common rooms making 5,000 rivets a day. Children came home from school and drilled 1000 holes in aluminum panels in their bedrooms. Every home a machine shop. With one machine.
War is hell.
Sirhr
Damn, Sir, Thanks for the education. Fascinating.
I was born in '56, so I knew of LeMay, McNamara, Eisenhower, etc. What I never had a grasp on was the actual history that you have outlined in your posts above. I'll check out the book and the movie.....
Thanks again, greatly appreciated !
The US Government hasn't had much compunction against killing innocent men, women, and children when it suited its needs.
Firebombing of Dresden
A series of Allied firebombing raids begins against the German city of Dresden, reducing the city to rubble and flames, and killing as many as 135,000 people.
Firebombing of Japan made Dresden look like a day in the park.
Lemay knew what he was doing. He did what had to be done....we forget that. Thanks for reminding us that we need to sometimes do what needs to be done
Understood. It just underscores my point.
Which is: when your enemy learns from you, don't be surprised that you get what you gave.
