Defund the police? Ok, maybe...

tomcatfan · Jul 22, 2020

So I want to start this thread by saying that I am not an unabashed cop hater, I understand that they have a thankless, often impossible job. Dealing with the public on a daily basis at their worse is not something I could do. I respect law enforcement and the job they do. I think the "abolish the police" is one of the dumbest ideas to come from the left in a long time.

With that being said, I just wanted to start a discussion on some of the nuances of the current state of law enforcement in the U.S. to get the hides shake on it. Since I can't have this drunken conversation in a bar with my friends, let's try it here:

There are over 17,000 state and local law enforcement agencies in the U.S. Are you really telling me that 17,000+ agencies is absolutely necessary and there isn't any room for consolidation? The department of education and the EPA have SWAT units. Really? The FBI can't serve the role of enforcing federal laws?

The NYPD has an operating budget of almost $11 Billion. While privately funded, the NYPD operates in 12 different countries conducting counter terrorism operations. Isn't that what FBI, CIA, NSA, and really just the DNI are for? Is there no room for cost reductions in an $11 Billion budget. I saw last night that there are 27 cops posted on the BLM mural out in front of Trump Tower. Really? That's the best way to use resources, there is NO room for streamlining the $11 billion budget?

And from a 2A prospective, I've really been struggling with the idea of the "back the blue" movement. I like many 2A supporters think that the 2A is there for self defense as well as to protect against a tyrannical government. IMO, what's going on right now is pretty tyrannical. The couple in St. Louis MO that defended their homes from protesters using firearms, have since had their firearms confiscated and are facing felony charges. They defended their home against a mob of people, blatantly breaking the law after they called the cops with no response. Supposedly the cops were told to stand down. They were their own last defense and they chose to use a show of force to keep themselves safe. The local government has chosen to not prosecute any of the trespassing protesters who caused property damage, but instead prosecute the couple defending themselves. That seems pretty tyrannical to me.

When talking about fighting tyranny, fundamentally isn't it going to be law enforcement, the national guard, and the armed forces that are the army of said tyranny? It wasn't the prosecutor in St. Louis who served the search warrant to confiscate the firearms of that couple, it was the police. It has been reported that they did so begrudgingly, but it was cops that ultimately stripped a couples ability to defend themselves in a time of lawlessness just so a local politician could make a political statement.

How do other 2A supporters rationalize supporting the current "back the blue" movement? You do know that it is the blues job to come and take your right to defend yourself when the government want's them to right? With over 17,000 different departments and billions in funding, is there really no room to consolidate and reduce the funding of some police agencies? What do you think?

sea2summit · Jul 22, 2020

2A is a “break glass in case of emergency” issue. Unless you want to take care of all the neighborhood problems, or worse trust your neighbor Bob to, I’d recommend keeping the police funded.

The D · Jul 22, 2020

I’m all for it. Don’t steal my $$ and let me decide the best way to provide safety/security for me and my loved ones

Here is an example of this working; http://www.threatmanagementcenter.com/

Eli17L · Jul 22, 2020

IMO
98% of LEO are honest.
50% of LEO are good guys. A higher percentage than the general public.
The problem isn't the cops its the laws the law makers and the ROE.
Get rid of 90% of the BS laws that make LE the bad guys in the minds of the fringe.
But I live in a small town and LE are the good guys.

candyx · Jul 22, 2020

Government is so big because an elected official has to give his brother in law a job and over 250 years that adds up to a lot of people on the government tit. The Defund the Police movement is radical left off the cliff but democrats have to go with it to remove Trump. We are in the Bizarro Time Period of America and you can't use fundamental reasoning or thinking to explain or solve the acts and questions. Lets say you dislike your neighbor so you can either stop talking to them or resolve your issues in a peaceful manner. In the Bizarro Time you burn your house down and tell your neighbor fuck you, doesn't make sense in any world but this is how the left is acting in todays world.

sea2summit · Jul 22, 2020

The D said:
I’m all for it. Don’t steal my $$ and let me decide the best way to provide safety/security for me and my loved ones

Here is an example of this working; http://www.threatmanagementcenter.com/

What is that? Airsoft?

The D · Jul 22, 2020

sea2summit said:
What is that? Airsoft?

?

hollowoutadime · Jul 22, 2020

tomcatfan said:
You do know that it is the blues job to come and take your right to defend yourself when the government want's them to right?

That's a directive from misguided liberal politicians in charge. You can try to vote them out (not easy) or move to a township/suburb where that doesn't fly.
That's what I did.

Agree with Sea2Summit about letting them handle the daily grind. That unlikeable couple, in that circumstance, was between a rock and a hard place.
There ought to be some repercussions for the prosecutor for inserting her racism into the circumstance. Nobody deserves that.

W54/XM-388 · Jul 22, 2020

I think the best thing we can actually do is to mandate NO more future retirement packages for the police AT ALL.

Instead, each year the departments / city MUST pay out the amount agreed upon in their contract to their own self managed IRA / SEP-IRA / Roth / whatever.
A fund that can only be touched by the specific person who is the beneficiary and is managed solely by them at their sole discretion with no restrictions other than federal tax laws that apply to an average investor in the same type of retirement account.

All existing retirement benefits accrued must be paid out at an agreed upon current value rate to private accounts so the accounts are caught up.

THAT right there will be a huge step in making sure the politicians can't hold the police hostage by their retirement accounts.

Yes the unions will scream and yell that they think they will get some exorbitant amount later on under the current scheme.... good luck with that, you think the Communists plan to pay the police they hate all this overblown stuff???

UpSideDown · Jul 22, 2020

People have this ridiculous idea that if things really get bad, that the police and military will side with the people and fight against the government. Almost every single example in the history of humanity has proven this patently false. They will 'just do their jobs'.

Those cops in St Louis did what they were told. It doesn't matter how they felt about it - they did it. Every single person involved in a wrongful action is themselves directly responsible for the action. And now that family is defenseless and unprotected. And if he loses his trial, he'll be a felon who - even if pardoned by the Governor - can never own firearms again. The DA or prosecutor who asked for the warrant is responsible; the judge who issued the warrant is responsible; the officers who fulfilled the warrant are responsible. And then at the end of the day, the same cops will say they aren't responsible for the safety of the McCloskys.

It is incredibly unfortunate that good cops only seem to exist for an instant. They see something done wrong by another cop, report it, and then all too often that cop who did the right thing is immediately fired, suspended, relocated, or encouraged in every way to quit by their co-workers who now see them as a traitor. The Thin Blue Line is a cult that you can never leave. It's an 'us against them' group, and no matter how heinous the crimes of a bad cop, they can never be called out, because they're a cop.

LawnMM · Jul 22, 2020

tomcatfan said:
You do know that it is the blues job to come and take your right to defend yourself when the government want's them to right?

It's not the 'blues' job to confiscate anything. It's law enforcement, period.

If you're dumb enough to break the law, you get what you get. Some laws are stupid, but that's the fault of shitty politicians and idiot voters that elected them, not the 'blues'

This country has been voting for dipshits for decades and the chickens are coming home.

Jgunner · Jul 22, 2020

I find myself in the same boat. Although i have not had any issues with law enforcement where i live now, i did in another state. Typically to no fault of my own. Multiple times my friends and i or by myself had run ins with the law for zero reason. Multiple times at gunpoint. Illegal traffic stops, illegal searches and generally displeasurable encounters. I started to grow an attitude against the police(warranted if you ask me).
Eventually i moved states, magically all my police encounters stopped and the very few i had were what i call textbook, i had done something wrong like rolling a stop sign, speeding
Or giving a stolen property report, vehicle vandalism report, whatever. None were nagative. Just officers doing their job without a chip on their shoulder or bad attitude. Was refreshing.

i was friends with a family of law enforcement in my old state. Best friend became an officer, his dad a police chief, many family members in border patrol, sheriff or police. They seemed to be the ONLY good ones i met while I was there.

i have officers i befriend due to my shooting sports, some in different states, all seem to be cool and on the up&up.

i only say all this because not all officers are created equal.Some are decent people, some are great and some are terrible, but i feel like it has more to do with the politics in a state that trickles down to law enforcement and they seem to be trained to think the general public deserves whatever poor treatment they can dish out, but wonder why they are hated.

I hope police forces can overcome this hatred, but it won’t without an attitude change. Not everyone they run into wants to kill them or is a scumbag. Police are necessary to our way of life and although i am sure there is some fat in their budget, it sure isn’t the officers pay.

UpSideDown · Jul 22, 2020

The US would be a different place if we didn't have tens of thousands of moral-opinion laws that made every single person a criminal every single day, just waiting to get caught. Our prison population would make Stalin blush.

Longshot231 · Jul 22, 2020

I can back the blue until they want to confiscate my guns. Ever met any anti-gun cops? Enough said.

UpSideDown · Jul 22, 2020

LawnMM said:
If you're dumb enough to break the law, you get what you get.

Every single person in this nation is a criminal every single day. If a note taker shadowed any one of us for a week they'd probably have a list of scores of misdemeanors and a few felonies we had committed. Just because we don't get caught doesn't mean we don't do them. Unless you've never gone 70 in a 55 in a state where 15 over is a felony. Or gone 66 in a 65 where that's a misdemeanor. Or walked into a post office with your concealed carry.

acudaowner · Jul 22, 2020

Since when did what terrorist want matter ? the blm and antifa are nothing less than a paid terrorist group designed to disrupt as much of the US as they can and they are winning they are called peaceful protesters by the media they are nothing of the sort , they are not people trying to fight for the rights of an oppressed people , rationalize their crazy demands why waist the time , They are terrorist why should anyone even care what their problems are while they are killing children . They kill and are not punished even as they break the law , they burn and loot and kill the same people they are claiming to be fighting for as if that makes any sense . The whole thing still looks like smoke and mirrors to me to throw people off of the fact they are terrorist . Instead of strapping bombs to there chests they are burning property . Companies pay these groups to fund them and no one questions which companies are doing this and for how much does it cost to kill . If this was an outright invasion of the Chinese I would like to think they would be getting a pretty good fight at this point . but I fear I would be wrong the chines government has paid money to the blm and antifa to fund and encourage their actions so have tech companies and sports organization paid for the destruction of this country , and people want to de fund the only organization that is entirely designed to enforce this countries laws . Wonder why they are willing to negotiate with terrorist ?

Eli17L · Jul 22, 2020

acudaowner said:
since when did what terrorist want matter ? the blm and antifa are nothing less than a paid terrorist group designed to disrupt as much of the US as they can and they are winning they are called peaceful protesters , they are not people try and rationalize there crazy demands they are terrorist why should anyone even care what there problems are , they kill and are not punished , they burn and loot the same people they are claiming to be fighting for as if that makes any sense the whole thing still looks like smoke and mirrors to throw people off of the fact they are terrorist instead of strapping bombs to there chests they are burning property . companies pay these groups to fund them and no one questions which companies are doing this and for how much if this was an outright invasion of the chinese i would like to think they would be getting a pretty good fight at this point . but I fear I would be wrong the chines goverment has paid money to the blm and antifa to fund there actions so have tech companies and sports organization for the destruction of this country and people want to defund the only set up organization that is entirly designed to enforce this countries laws . wonder why they are willing to negotiate with terrorist ?

I agree F-Antifa but LE has made enemies of to many people and are losing the support of everyday people so there are not enough people supporting them at this point. My shooting gear got "lost" while in the evidence locker at the local PD after I was broken into so defund them for all I care and I won't defend them but don't fuck with my Sheriff he is my hero.

W54/XM-388 · Jul 22, 2020

LawnMM said:
It's not the 'blues' job to confiscate anything. It's law enforcement, period.
If you're dumb enough to break the law, you get what you get. Some laws are stupid, but that's the fault of shitty politicians and idiot voters that elected them, not the 'blues'

Your Really and I mean REALLY ought to think long and hard about that stance, I have and have come clearly to the conclusion that the rules and justice that our own country laid down at the Nuremberg trials was correct.

IF you carry out orders and enforce laws that help the state violate rights, violate freedom, steal, confiscate, oppress, kill, genocide others, you will be held personally responsible when the time comes for the payback for all those crimes committed by the state.

Why do you think the Communists are able to get everything done?
Because those we pay for to supposedly be "public servants", have decided to "Just follow orders".

Without people being willing to "Just Follow Orders," Just about NONE of the great horrible genocides, massacres, enslavement etc would have happened throughout history.

We are currently stuck paying for the sins of those who 'just followed orders" in enforcing the "legal" slave trade. Had no person in law enforcement ever agreed to enforce any of those vile slavery laws, we would never have had the problem to begin with.

You will NOT have a free country if the public pays for a group of people who answer only to the politicians and "just follow orders."

You are just starting to see the first hint of what is in store for everyone once the Communists get their hands on power and the "laws" suddenly say that you are "lawfully required" to get in the cattle cars.....

Jgunner · Jul 22, 2020

Longshot231 said:
I can back the blue until they want to confiscate my guns. Ever met any anti-gun cops? Enough said.

Yes, i have met more than a few anti gun cops. In a pro gun state! They say stuff like “civilians dont need guns, only leo.” And “i hate guns, if we just banned guns outright then I wouldn’t need one and i could still do my job”. That last one came from a 6’7” black cop who weighed 260#, to which i laughed out loud to him saying it. Told him “you can say that because people are afraid you’ll snap em in half. What about 5’10” 180# guys or 130# women who are much less intimidating?” He said they shouldn’t be cops then. Heh, no getting though to some people.

wade2big · Jul 22, 2020

When things go down here, most law enforcement agencies will protect the government. Shitty politicians and shitty police chiefs make for shitty police departments. Shitty police departments make it impossible for good cops to exist there because if a good cop works for a shitty police department run by shitty police chiefs and politicians, then the good cop isn't really a good cop now is he. History proves this.

There are many good cops and many good police departments. Then ones refusing to enforce these shutdown laws and masking laws are great examples. Cops will have to make a choice sooner or later it seems.

Longshot231 · Jul 22, 2020

Jgunner said:
Yes, i have met more than a few anti gun cops. In a pro gun state! They say stuff like “civilians dont need guns, only leo.” And “i hate guns, if we just banned guns outright then I wouldn’t need one and i could still do my job”. That last one came from a 6’7” black cop who weighed 260#, to which i laughed out loud to him saying it. Told him “you can say that because people are afraid you’ll snap em in half. What about 5’10” 180# guys or 130# women who are much less intimidating?” He said they shouldn’t be cops then. Heh, no getting though to some people.

Exactly, and don't forget that the courts have said that the police have NO duty to protect the citizenry.

So if they don't have to protect us (Mr. & Mrs. McCloskey) then how do we do protect ourselves?

I'm not for de-funding the police but I don't want my tax dollars used against me when I protect myself with or without a gun. Just talk with anyone who has ever had to shoot someone in self-defense. If you think a cop has it bad look at how much pressure is put on an individual who doesn't have a paid union attorney defending them.

The problem with bad cops mushrroomed after the Supreme Court gave them and too many other government officials qualified immunity.

They also should not be allowed to investigate themselves. Look up the shooting of John Crawford in Beavercreek, Ohio. Watch the videos and 911 call then tell me how the internal affairs investigation could say that it was a justifiable shooting.

Blutroop · Jul 22, 2020

Longshot231 said:
I can back the blue until they want to confiscate my guns. Ever met any anti-gun cops? Enough said.

There are cops wearing a uniform right now that believe only they should have firearms. They are not smart enough to notice that cops are next in line right after citizens for disarmament

Blutroop · Jul 22, 2020

100% of cops are human.
the problem is not that we have some good ones and some bad ones, the problem is you can’t get rid of the bad ones.. and the good ones won’t do it.
Can you still call them good if they don’t do their job and get rid of the bad ones?
Eventually there will be no good ones left. Or eventually they will end up at your doorstep to enforce some unconstitutional political babble made to sound like law or mask mandate? Vaccine refusal warrant?
Eventually we will be at war. The cops that are on your side before the line in the sand is reached are the ones you can trust.

OldSalty · Jul 22, 2020

Just trying to pay the bills and put food on the table...

TmisterE · Jul 22, 2020

I Fully Back The Blue and anyone that thinks defunding and getting rid of the police is a good idea is an idiot, yes anyone that believes this is a fucking moron you need to just go join the communist's on other side, stop pretending to be on the side of liberty and justice. People seem to think committing crimes is just ok, looting, burning, assaulting all just ok in the name of your cause, give me a fucking break why have we allowed these criminals to run amok, yes they are all criminals and should all be rounded up and locked in a cage. But oh no they are just protesters, look at portland oregon that place is a cluster fuck as bad if not worse than seattle, guess I'm lucky enough to be in a place where the rule of law still means something for now. Our County sheriff has said he will not put up with this shit and so far we have not seen any of the stupidity going on in almost all big city's. This shit needs to stop.

wade2big · Jul 22, 2020

Blutroop said:
100% of cops are human.......snip

72% of statistics are made up on the spot. Cite your source

wade2big · Jul 22, 2020

W54/XM-388 said:
I think the best thing we can actually do is to mandate NO more future retirement packages for the police AT ALL.

Instead, each year the departments / city MUST pay out the amount agreed upon in their contract to their own self managed IRA / SEP-IRA / Roth / whatever.
A fund that can only be touched by the specific person who is the beneficiary and is managed solely by them at their sole discretion with no restrictions other than federal tax laws that apply to an average investor in the same type of retirement account.

All existing retirement benefits accrued must be paid out at an agreed upon current value rate to private accounts so the accounts are caught up.

THAT right there will be a huge step in making sure the politicians can't hold the police hostage by their retirement accounts.

Yes the unions will scream and yell that they think they will get some exorbitant amount later on under the current scheme.... good luck with that, you think the Communists plain to pay the police they hate all this overblown stuff???

Imagine if social security was run this way.

Blutroop · Jul 22, 2020

wade2big said:
72% of statistics are made up on the spot. Cite your source

Oops, ya caught me. I just needed a number to make it sound all proper like and technical and stuff.
1/3 of the people reading this and all dentists agree though

tomcatfan · Jul 22, 2020

LawnMM said:
It's not the 'blues' job to confiscate anything. It's law enforcement, period.

If you're dumb enough to break the law, you get what you get. Some laws are stupid, but that's the fault of shitty politicians and idiot voters that elected them, not the 'blues'

This country has been voting for dipshits for decades and the chickens are coming home.

IMO this is a cop out, no pun intended. There are 10's of thousands of laws currently on the books across the country. Sure politicians pass the laws, but for some reason, every legislative session, in every state across the country, more laws are passed. It is impossible to keep up. There is an entire profession of Lawyers created for the sole purpose of trying.

If an over zealous prosecutor wants to charge you with something, they will. And unfortunately, you don't always get to keep your rights throughout the process either. The idea of don't break the law and you have nothing to worry about, is a little silly. I guarantee, there isn't a single person alive that is familiar with every law in every state, every municipality, that can lead to criminal arrest.

tomcatfan · Jul 22, 2020

Blutroop said:
100% of cops are human.
the problem is not that we have some good ones and some bad ones, the problem is you can’t get rid of the bad ones.. and the good ones won’t do it.

I think there are many K-9 handlers that would disagree that 100% of cops are human.

But seriously, yes most cops are humans, and humans make mistakes. But when jobs have people's lives on the line, some mistakes are completely unacceptable. Imagine if American Airlines employed a very small percentage of pilots that couldn't land and crashed sometimes. Even if it was only 0.01% of their population, that would be completely unacceptable. Same applies to doctors. In this case, I would think we need to increase funding for police to significantly increase standards of training and make sure that there are no bad apples. For the same reason I don't want a drunk pilot who can't fly in the cockpit of my next flight, I don't want a stressed out cop that has an itchy trigger finger pulling me over for doing 35 in a 25.

W54/XM-388 · Jul 22, 2020

tomcatfan said:
Same applies to doctors.

Have you recently checked out in the list of things people die from in this country where medical malpractice and doctor / hospital errors sit?

tomcatfan said:
I think there are many K-9 handlers that would disagree that 100% of cops are human.

A dog is not a police officer no matter what people want to say. Just like if you have a penis, you are a male not a female.
A dog is property / possession / tool / asset, unless you'd like to start prosecuting all the police that kill people's dogs for murder...
(and no I DON'T buy into the whole BS idea that the "King's Animals" are some how "More important" than the people's animals).

tomcatfan · Jul 22, 2020

TmisterE said:
I Fully Back The Blue and anyone that thinks defunding and getting rid of the police is a good idea is an idiot, yes anyone that believes this is a fucking moron you need to just go join the communist's on other side, stop pretending to be on the side of liberty and justice.

When I say defund the police, I don't mean a total cut of funding. I may be wrong but I think that most conservatives would agree that the government has ballooned and gotten way to big. They also support cutting taxes and various government programs that have gotten out of control. My question is why wouldn't law enforcement be considered as well. Our country spends more per person on our criminal justice system than any other country in the world and it's not even close. I don't think it's a bad idea to talk about how we can save some money and get our government back to a reasonable size, law enforcement included.

Fig · Jul 22, 2020

tomcatfan said:
There are over 17,000 state and local law enforcement agencies in the U.S. Are you really telling me that 17,000+ agencies is absolutely necessary and there isn't any room for consolidation? The department of education and the EPA have SWAT units. Really? The FBI can't serve the role of enforcing federal laws?

This keeps power distributed to the people and prevents a Stazzi or Gestapo for enforcing tyranny. Those Federal units are the most dangerous, and if you trust the FBI at this point (totally complicit in the attempted coup) you’re a fucking moron. Sorry, but the FBI has shown itself to be an unprofessional, political, shit show of an agency that should probably be dissolved and reconstituted with about double the checks and balances.

The NYPD has an operating budget of almost $11 Billion. While privately funded, the NYPD operates in 12 different countries conducting counter terrorism operations. Isn't that what FBI, CIA, NSA, and really just the DNI are for? Is there no room for cost reductions in an $11 Billion budget. I saw last night that there are 27 cops posted on the BLM mural out in front of Trump Tower. Really? That's the best way to use resources, there is NO room for streamlining the $11 billion budget?

Who gives a fuck as long as NYC is paying for it? They can do whatever they want as long as they don’t try to steal it from me. NCY is being run by a Marxist Moron, but the people elected him, and now they’re reaping the whirlwind. Fuck NYC. They get what they deserve.

And from a 2A prospective, I've really been struggling with the idea of the "back the blue" movement. I like many 2A supporters think that the 2A is there for self defense as well as to protect against a tyrannical government. IMO, what's going on right now is pretty tyrannical. The couple in St. Louis MO that defended their homes from protesters using firearms, have since had their firearms confiscated and are facing felony charges. They defended their home against a mob of people, blatantly breaking the law after they called the cops with no response. Supposedly the cops were told to stand down. They were their own last defense and they chose to use a show of force to keep themselves safe. The local government has chosen to not prosecute any of the trespassing protesters who caused property damage, but instead prosecute the couple defending themselves. That seems pretty tyrannical to me.

When talking about fighting tyranny, fundamentally isn't it going to be law enforcement, the national guard, and the armed forces that are the army of said tyranny? It wasn't the prosecutor in St. Louis who served the search warrant to confiscate the firearms of that couple, it was the police. It has been reported that they did so begrudgingly, but it was cops that ultimately stripped a couples ability to defend themselves in a time of lawlessness just so a local politician could make a political statement.

Not fair. The police were ordered to execute a valid search warrant and seize property by a corrupt and fanatic Marxist District Atorney who is a full blown criminal. Again, Fuck St. Louis City (I live here BTW), they get what they Fucking deserve Electing a radical antifa bitch like Gardener. She should already be in federal prison for violating the civil rights of half her victims. Whats happening in St. Louis is a tradedgy, but it’s a local one. Most District Atorneys aren’t BLM/Antifa crazies. I give even money she ends up behind bars.

How do other 2A supporters rationalize supporting the current "back the blue" movement? You do know that it is the blues job to come and take your right to defend yourself when the government want's them to right? With over 17,000 different departments and billions in funding, is there really no room to consolidate and reduce the funding of some police agencies? What do you think?

All the cops I’m friends with are 5X5 with gun rights. I want the whole thing as fragmented as possible so that if there’s rot it stays contained.

tomcatfan · Jul 22, 2020

W54/XM-388 said:
A dog is not a police officer no matter what people want to say. Just like if you have a penis, you are a male not a female.
A dog is property / possession / tool / asset, unless you'd like to start prosecuting all the police that kill people's dogs for murder...
(and no I DON'T buy into the whole BS idea that the "King's Animals" are some how "More important" than the people's animals).

I hear you, but unfortunately many state and local governments don't agree. Try shooting a K-9 or even assaulting one and let me know how that works out. A cop can kill your dog and it's perfectly legal, injure a K-9 while it's doing its job and your going to jail for a long time.

Blutroop · Jul 22, 2020

tomcatfan said:
I think there are many K-9 handlers that would disagree that 100% of cops are human.

But seriously, yes most cops are humans, and humans make mistakes. But when jobs have people's lives on the line, some mistakes are completely unacceptable. Imagine if American Airlines employed a very small percentage of pilots that couldn't land and crashed sometimes. Even if it was only 0.01% of their population, that would be completely unacceptable. Same applies to doctors. In this case, I would think we need to increase funding for police to significantly increase standards of training and make sure that there are no bad apples. For the same reason I don't want a drunk pilot who can't fly in the cockpit of my next flight, I don't want a stressed out cop that has an itchy trigger finger pulling me over for doing 35 in a 25.

I don’t think the system can be fixed. I think it’s already to broken. But we could give less money to get down to the people that really wanna be “public servants” and then vet them to make sure it’s not just them wanting to get back at all the people that picked on him growing up.

tomcatfan said:
I hear you, but unfortunately many state and local governments don't agree. Try shooting a K-9 or even assaulting one and let me know how that works out. A cop can kill your dog and it's perfectly legal, injure a K-9 while it's doing its job and your going to jail for a long time.

I’ve yet to see a dog read someone their rights..
What your talking about does exist. And it needs to stop.
One day a Leo will shoot the wrong dog in front of the wrong person.
Just like the guy that shot the first cop in the face when executing a no knock warrant.. he was found not guilty and you didn’t really hear about it in the news.

EGwhisper · Jul 22, 2020

Mask now required in all public places here in IN, or class B Misdemeanor. If any cop confronts me about wearing a mask outside, I'll be all for defunding at least one cop's salary.

tomcatfan · Jul 22, 2020

Fig said:
This keeps power distributed to the people and prevents a Stazzi or Gestapo for enforcing tyranny. Those Federal units are the most dangerous, and if you trust the FBI at this point (totally complicit in the attempted coup) you’re a fucking moron. Sorry, but the FBI has shown itself to be an unprofessional, political, shit show of an agency that should probably be dissolved and reconstituted with about double the checks and balances.

I agree with this 100%. Some of the shit the FBI has gotten away with over the years is disgusting.

Fig said:
Who gives a fuck as long as NYC is paying for it? They can do whatever they want as long as they don’t try to steal it from me. NCY is being run by a Marxist Moron, but the people elected him, and now they’re reaping the whirlwind. Fuck NYC. They get what they deserve.

My guess would be NYC residents who are asking to defund the police.

Fig said:
Not fair. The police were ordered to execute a valid search warrant and seize property by a corrupt and fanatic Marxist District Atorney who is a full blown criminal. Again, Fuck St. Louis City (I live here BTW), they get what they Fucking deserve Electing a radical antifa bitch like Gardener. She should already be in federal prison for violating the civil rights of half her victims. Whats happening in St. Louis is a tradedgy, but it’s a local one. Most District Atorneys aren’t BLM/Antifa crazies. I give even money she ends up behind bars.

IMO the cops are on the hook for actually executing the corrupt will of a bad political actor. They easily could have came back empty handed and said they couldn't find the weapons after telling the couple to make them hard to find. Maybe they got lost in a boating accident, who knows. Either way, wrong is wrong and we should hold all those accountable for executing orders from the "higher ups". I'm not in any way saying that cops are Nazi's obviously that is not true. But to make my point, the SS soldier was just as responsible for conducting genocide as Hitler was, even though they were "just doing their jobs".

E. Bryant · Jul 22, 2020

I like my law enforcement as local as possible, so that they remain as accountable as possible. I certainly do not support defunding *all* law enforcement, but there are several layers that could go away tomorrow without negatively affecting my life.

Blutroop · Jul 22, 2020

We need to defund all gov..
When I joined the mil I didn’t do it for the money.
good thing since you can’t live on what they pay if not for the food and clothes. (And your every additional need)
To many politicians have gotten too used to having a checkbook full of blank checks

tomcatfan · Jul 22, 2020

E. Bryant said:
I like my law enforcement as local as possible, so that they remain as accountable as possible. I certainly do not support defunding *all* law enforcement, but there are several layers that could go away tomorrow without negatively affecting my life.

I think everything in this post applies to all government, not just law enforcement.

W54/XM-388 · Jul 22, 2020

tomcatfan said:
I hear you, but unfortunately many state and local governments don't agree. Try shooting a K-9 or even assaulting one and let me know how that works out. A cop can kill your dog and it's perfectly legal, injure a K-9 while it's doing its job and your going to jail for a long time.

Yep and that's the problem with us allowing "some animals to be more equal than other animals"
Unfortunately the "good" people always seem to be willing to swallow that load and beg for more.

But if an animal owned by the police department is attacking me or my animals and trying to cause us death or serious injury, and it's owner / handler can't / won't get it under control, I'll be forced to do what I have to do to protect myself and my property and then deal with the asses who were supposed to be handling / controlling theirs.

I guess if they kill my property, it's pretty much impossible to get any justice in a court, and it's Biblical justice or just take it up the ass an move on....

UpSideDown · Jul 22, 2020

Just a reminder that it’s a felony to mail a letter at the drop box in the post office parking lot with an unloaded gun locked in the trunk of your car.

And multiple levels of government will willfully use every tool available to them to utterly destroy your life for it.

tomcatfan · Jul 22, 2020

UpSideDown said:
Just a reminder that it’s a felony to mail a letter at the drop box in the post office parking lot with an unloaded gun locked in the trunk of your car.

And multiple levels of government will willfully use every tool available to them to utterly destroy your life for it.

I mean everyone knows this... If you just follow the law, you have nothing to worry about...

But seriously, I must have committed 3 felonies last week. I had a lot of mail to send and a CCW with me in the truck. I mean, I absolutely should lose my right to vote.

LawnMM · Jul 22, 2020

UpSideDown said:
Every single person in this nation is a criminal every single day. If a note taker shadowed any one of us for a week they'd probably have a list of scores of misdemeanors and a few felonies we had committed. Just because we don't get caught doesn't mean we don't do them. Unless you've never gone 70 in a 55 in a state where 15 over is a felony. Or gone 66 in a 65 where that's a misdemeanor. Or walked into a post office with your concealed carry.

Who's fault is that? Ain't your local LE. You're mad at the wrong people. If you don't vote or you live in and support commie states and cities this dumb shit is inevitable.

None of it having fuckall to do with the police. Cops don't write laws.

W54/XM-388 · Jul 22, 2020

tomcatfan said:
But seriously, I must have committed 3 felonies last week. I had a lot of mail to send and a CCW with me in the truck. I mean, I absolutely should lose my right to vote.

I would bet if you did, there would be a whole lot of folks on the forum here just clucking your head and being like... well you should have obeyed the law.....

W54/XM-388 · Jul 22, 2020

LawnMM said:
Cops don't write laws.

No, BUT they are the ones that carry out the laws and put the boots and bullets to the commands of the evil politicians who always seem to eventually get into power because there tends to eventually always be more evil / greedy / selfish folks that good ones.

Which is why the ones you see saying FU to the communists tend to be the Sheriffs who can actually do what their conscience tells them to for the most part.

UpSideDown · Jul 22, 2020

LawnMM said:
Who's fault is that? Ain't your local LE.

Yes, it is their fault. The blame does not lie solely on the shoulders of lawmakers. It also lies on the shoulders of every single person who enforces unreasonable laws.

tomcatfan · Jul 22, 2020

LawnMM said:
Who's fault is that? Ain't your local LE. You're mad at the wrong people. If you don't vote or you live in and support commie states and cities this dumb shit is inevitable.

None of it having fuckall to do with the police. Cops don't write laws.

But cops sure do get to pick and chose which laws they enforce and when they do it.

A paddle boarder was arrested in Long Beach CA as the pandemic kicked off for violating stay at home and beach closure orders. He was on a paddle board in on the ocean, BY HIM SELF. Weeks later, when thousands of people went out to protest just blocks away from where the paddle boarder was arrested would you believe it, not a single person was arrested for violating those same orders.

LawnMM · Jul 22, 2020

UpSideDown said:
Yes, it is their fault. The blame does not lie solely on the shoulders of lawmakers. It also lies on the shoulders of every single person who enforces unreasonable laws.

Jgunner · Jul 22, 2020

tomcatfan said:
But cops sure do get to pick and chose which laws they enforce and when they do it.

A paddle boarder was arrested in Long Beach CA as the pandemic kicked off for violating stay at home and beach closure orders. He was on a paddle board in on the ocean, BY HIM SELF. Weeks later, when thousands of people went out to protest just blocks away from where the paddle boarder was arrested would you believe it, not a single person was arrested for violating those same orders.

He shoulda paddled away!!!

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