PRS Talk Innovation killing the spirit?

just had this same conversation over the same piece of gear pictured with my buddies last night....

There have been service rifle comps since forever. Screw your fancy 1stFP turret scope. That’s cheatin’!!!

Still the marksman. No widget makes impacts.

Shooting like car racing, it is controlled by those with the bucks. The "little guy" don't stand a chance. As soon as you have all the equipment needed to compete, the new stuff hits the market. You know all the stuff the money boys have been testing all the last season.

Its up to the match directors to design a stage where all the gadgets aren't going to give you an advantage. Id rather go the minimalist route myself but I still love the innovation.

I like the innovation and gaming aspect that comes along with it, but I agree that the sport needs a "limited" division of some type, while maintaining the open aspect of "open division." Run it in a way similar to 3 gun.

More class's and equal opportunity at the prize table.

Is that what they call production class?

The sport isn't large enough to divide up similar to USPSA into an "unlimited" class where everything goes and a class with gear restrictions. You'd have less competitions because you'd be splitting up the already limited number of shooters.

jcwarrior87 said:

and with the JHR production is a joke in my opion.

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What makes it a joke? It's a sub-$2,000 production rifle that anyone can order more or less "off-the-shelf" even if there currently is a bit of a lead time thanks to the wait for Nucleus actions. This fits within the spirit and rules of production class rifles.

To the OP's point, you have to split it up or there will always be an inequity between those with the money and those without...

From a rookie in this game but who has competed in competive shooting sports for a long time.

Biggest thing is peoeple want a chance to win. they dont have to win the shoot but they want to be competive in a group. theybwant a chance at the prizes. they want to see their name in print. that is what keeps people interested, what keeps them comming back and what keep them happy.

Shooting Classes. this would a good start. could have some type of punch system that after so many punches you go up in class. One class should be profesional shooters. these guys,no matter the skill level, should ever be put in the same class as non professional.

Equipment classes. another option would be seperating shooters by equipment classes. this can be accomplished by something like, bi pod squeeze bag only, another with a few pieces of equipment and unlimited. i would get rid of the factory class as MOST shooters in the minimilist wil be factory rifles. And the guy who wins the factory class now will still win that class no matter the gun used. at a really big shoot you may have enough to combine the two.

For the prize table. i would have the shoot winner have pick. after that I would have it a draw by competitor number. this keeps every happy as they know they will have a chance to win something.

From the sidelines, it appears that there is a disconnect between the top shooters and what is available to them and lower class shooters. close this gap, make showing up to a shoot something to look forward to and you will solve a lot of problems.

ThePretzel said:

The sport isn't large enough to divide up similar to USPSA into an "unlimited" class where everything goes and a class with gear restrictions. You'd have less competitions because you'd be splitting up the already limited number of shooters.

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You already have multiple divisions running in the same squads. Its just a label in the spreadsheet. If an RO sees people using restricted gear for their class, it is brought up and a DQ is handed out. It's no different than how tac is done now.

When the pro's pay the same entry fee as a new shooter he is just paying the pro to show up at the prize table.

regnar375 said:

From a rookie in this game but who has competed in competive shooting sports for a long time.

Biggest thing is peoeple want a chance to win. they dont have to win the shoot but they want to be competive in a group. theybwant a chance at the prizes. they want to see their name in print. that is what keeps people interested, what keeps them comming back and what keep them happy.

Shooting Classes. this would a good start. could have some type of punch system that after so many punches you go up in class. One class should be profesional shooters. these guys,no matter the skill level, should ever be put in the same class as non professional.

Equipment classes. another option would be seperating shooters by equipment classes. this can be accomplished by something like, bi pod squeeze bag only, another with a few pieces of equipment and unlimited. i would get rid of the factory class as MOST shooters in the minimilist wil be factory rifles. And the guy who wins the factory class now will still win that class no matter the gun used. at a really big shoot you may have enough to combine the two.

For the prize table. i would have the shoot winner have pick. after that I would have it a draw by competitor number. this keeps every happy as they know they will have a chance to win something.

From the sidelines, it appears that there is a disconnect between the top shooters and what is available to them and lower class shooters. close this gap, make showing up to a shoot something to look forward to and you will solve a lot of problems.

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the disconnect is the lower class shooters dont want to hear that the top guys all started where they are starting

what defines a "pro"?

People get wrapped around the axle about the PRS being a gear race, and honestly I can see where people get the impression it is. My experience, however, has been the opposite. Many of the new products I have seen come to market are either new ways to accomplish the same thing as an existing product, or cases of people throwing stuff at the wall hoping it sticks. Some are an attempt to make small improvements on an existing product and only bring refinement, not a big change in function. The truly innovating products are few and far between (See: GameChanger). Some items come out that might give a narrow advantage in a specific situation, but those are pretty few and far between, and the majority of those situations will only be of impact to the top ~5-10% of the field at a given match.

IMO, there's no reason to chase gear all over the place thinking it's going to make you competitive, or that you have to have it to be competitive. Getting more practice (especially with wind and position building), shooting more matches to get experience with different challenges, mental focus, and mental toughness will all play a MUCH bigger role in your success at a match than whether or not you have the latest widget.

jcwarrior87 said:

the only limit on productin is a rifle that cost 2k less and an optic that cost less than 1k..... and with the JHR production is a joke in my opion.

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It's $2k each by MSRP for both rifle and optic, not $2/1k.

Edit: Typing is hard.

I agree OP and am trying my best to stay away from big huge bags while still trying to develop effective bags. I’ve got something cooking now that looks promising. @hookedonbrass is going to see how it works!

morganlamprecht said:

the disconnect is the lower class shooters dont want to hear that the top guys all started where they are starting

what defines a "pro"?

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This.

jcwarrior87 said:

The jhr is $1999.95.... I want to see the 5 cent scope on it.....j/k

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I'm assuming you were thinking of the old $3k total price limit from the first season of production class, but that was raised to $4k a while back.

jcwarrior87 said:

the rifle it's self is great, It just IMO is against the production spirit. Having a rifle with no common store off the self ammo is not a production rifle, No large scale rifle maker would make a rifle that doesn't have a good backing of ammo in any main stream store. it would not sell, and IMO that is the spirit of the production rilfe, a class were joe smoe can go to a store in his town, pick up a rifle, scope, and ammo, and go shoot a match.

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Every caliber of the JHR, except 6Dasher, has factory ammo available. The only "uncommon" factory ammo is 6BR, all the rest you can find at any Cabela's or Bass Pro.

As far as large scale rifle makers, Savage chambers rifles in 6BR. That's about as large scale of a manufacturer as you'll find out there today.

regnar375 said:

From the sidelines, it appears that there is a disconnect between the top shooters and what is available to them and lower class shooters. close this gap, make showing up to a shoot something to look forward to and you will solve a lot of problems.

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Showing up to a shoot is something I still look forwards to, and I was still excited to go shoot when I was using a Savage 12FV with its blind magazine and an Athlon Argos BTR around this time last year.

Dividing the ruleset like you describe takes away the ability for you to compare yourself against the best in the world to try and improve. Especially if you use your prize distribution method, do you think there's a single pro who wouldn't be out to shoot for the top spot with all the gear they normally use anyways?

You also seem to think that all pros are using ridiculous amounts of gear. The funny part, to me, of the original post is that it's a photo of something Jake Vibbert specifically is testing. Jake tests a LOT of gear for a lot of people, but in matches he pretty much exclusively uses one shooting bag and his rifle (and often times just uses a pad on his rifle stock instead of a full bag).

You're complaining about gear in PRS by using a photo from one of the best shooters that uses the least gear of just about anyone in the top levels, which just goes to show that none of this gear you claim is required is actually necessary to compete and win.

I'm definitely an amateur at best and mostly only go to local matches but I can understand both sides of the coin on this issue. I think a lot of people don't articulate it well but, in my opinion, the draw of "field"/"practical" precision rifle matches is it gives us something fun to do on the weekends that also helps build skills for guys that use a precision rifle in a hunting and/or military/LE context. That was the original draw for me at least, a fun hobby that would help build better skills that hopefully would be of some benefit for hunting.

I think complaining about pr matches being a gear race borders on mental retardation. I'd be much more worried if red blooded American men weren't doing everything they could to win competitions. I get it that it looks pretty damn stupid seeing guys with pillows strapped all over their bodies shooting a 25 pound 6mm with a 2 ounce trigger standing on a cooler fumbling around with a tripod. But, at the end of the day, what the top shooters are doing is pretty damn unbelievable and I think a lot has already been learned from seeing what has worked for them and figuring out a way to blend that with techniques/gear that could/would work in the field even if it is not in the exact same way as in a competition. If you ever get on a squad with a top 5 national level guy, it really changes the way you look at this, once you see what they can do.

A competition is still a game no matter how you look at it. Some people play the game to win and some people play for other reasons. Imo, as long as the spirit of the game remains true to building skills that could benefit anyone using a precision rifle in a hunting and/or military/LE environment, then it will be a huge draw, no matter what the specific rules are.

Obviously, that is pretty damn subjective but one thing that is for damn sure is that you will never be able to make everyone happy, especially people that enjoy complaining about the rules to games that they don't even play.

ETA: I think there is still plenty of room for reasonable people to disagree about what rules would best accomplish the purpose of pr competitions and even what the purpose of pr competitions is in the first place.

ThePretzel said:

Showing up to a shoot is something I still look forwards to, and I was still excited to go shoot when I was using a Savage 12FV with its blind magazine and an Athlon Argos BTR around this time last year.

Dividing the ruleset like you describe takes away the ability for you to compare yourself against the best in the world to try and improve. Especially if you use your prize distribution method, do you think there's a single pro who wouldn't be out to shoot for the top spot with all the gear they normally use anyways?

You also seem to think that all pros are using ridiculous amounts of gear. The funny part, to me, of the original post is that it's a photo of something Jake Vibbert specifically is testing. Jake tests a LOT of gear for a lot of people, but in matches he pretty much exclusively uses one shooting bag and his rifle (and often times just uses a pad on his rifle stock instead of a full bag).

You're complaining about gear in PRS by using a photo from one of the best shooters that uses the least gear of just about anyone in the top levels, which just goes to show that none of this gear you claim is required is actually necessary to compete and win.

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The other funny part is the product in question was designed and made by David Preston's new company, so it's a top PRS shooter coming up with it. It wasn't even made as something exclusively to use on your rifle handguard, but it also can be used to mount both a spotter and LRF (or other such gear) to a single tripod. It's actually intended as a multi-use tool... one that the majority of people still don't need, but might come in handy for certain people in certain situations.

If you outfitted every shooter with the same equipment, I don’t think the leaderboard would change much, if at all. The best shooters are where they are because of a combination of natural talent and practice. You can’t buy natural ability and you can’t change the fact that some guys have more $$ to spend on practice ammo than others.

jcwarrior87 said:

You realize jake shoots north of 50k rds a year.... most people cant do that.

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THat's a drop in the bucket compared to what the top pistol and 3-gun shooters go through. Trying to be at the top of a shooting sport is going to require a LOT of time, effort, and ammo.

Adding to the whole ammo thing - I think Matt B goes through 15-20k a year total. No idea what Dave Preston does. If I remember right, the year Bryan Morgan won the whole thing, he shot more ammo at matches than he did in practice due to how often he was gone (he also shot and ran a shitload of matches that year). 50k for Jake isn't the norm for the PRS, but it isn't surprising, either.

jcwarrior87 said:

My goal is not to limit gear but give a spot for guys that want to compete with the same gear they hunt with and be competitive in a class of their own

Leave the prize table to those that spend the big bucks on the sport.

Make a class that will drive the skill and gear that hunters would actually want to pack in the field.

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So show up with a Pint Size Gamechanger and a rear bag, a Kestrel, ammo, and confort items. Put in the time and work, and you can be competitive with just those items.

Practical Rifle Jackpot Series tried it last year...have you heard about it?

jcwarrior87 said:

Solo sack, rangerfinder mag and ammo... is all I shot with.

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And 95% of matches, you could leave the LRF at home. If your skills are there, you could still do well at any match out there. Force anyone like Matt B, Jake, Dave Preston, Brandon Hembree, Brian Allen, etc to use the same set of gear (allowing for personal preference), and they will still beat the brakes off 95% of the field on a normal day.

jcwarrior87 said:

I have never doubted that, it is in my original post about it.

And there will always be a small group of people that are just flat out good no matter the gear.

But after having ro'd the 20 plus matches I have in the last 2 year. I have seen way to many top level shooter beat a stage with gear and not just one bag....

I will re state again if some one beats me with just skill(and not gear uses skill) that is awsome

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I've RO'd (and shot) a lot of matches as well, and my experince has been that the people that show up to a stage with their hands full of gear usually turn into a trainwreck in short order. The rocks at Altus are a perfect example - only THREE people cleaned it at the Fall Classic last year (Billy Nix, Brandon Hembree, and Ben Gossett), and all three of them used nothing more complex than a bipod and one bag. Everyone that walked up there with a tripod or more than one bag suffered for it. Hell, at least one of those clean runs (Brandon, I think) never even used the bipod, but nothing but a gamechanger.

I'm seeing more and more top shooters condense down to minimal gear, because they're figuring out that having one very versatile tool that you are exceptionally proficient with beats the pants off of having 10 tools in the box and only knowing how to use each one half-assed.

jcwarrior87 said:

an optic that cost less than 1k..... and with the JHR production is a joke in my opion.

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I believe optics can be up to $2'000 MSRP.

VP47PPC said:

I believe optics can be up to $2'000 MSPRP.

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Yeah, the limit is $<2k rifle, $<2k optic. The $3k total limit went the way of the dodo a couple years ago.

jcwarrior87 said:

I also think there is a disconnect between the top x amount of shooters that are amazing shooter, and the majority of average Joe's that shoot it. I am looking to grow the sport and give a nitch for average Joe's to come shoot in and become better hunters.... I have a feeling that would bring alot more shooter to our matches

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I suspect that your view is myopic based upon your personal desires. I do not think that you would bring a lot more shooters to the matches across the board. Maybe isolated locales could benefit from this, but that’s the purpose of local club one day matches, to adapt to the local needs to bring in more shooters. We do that at our local club matches. Most of the stages and sometimes a whole match is limited to the use of one bag, at a time. You can carry as many bags with you as you want, but at any given stage you can use only one.

Even so, we do not get that many hunters showing up to improve their skills. Most new shooters are there for the competition and fun. Most hunters I talk to at the range seem interested in my gear but profess that they have no interest in shooting our friendly matches. A typical response is, “I fill my freezer every season.”

I have been to several 'Hunter Rifle" matches. One is at a local gun club range here in Phoenix and the other in Utah at a private range that put on several fun competitions. The hunter rifle matches here in Phoenix pretty simple straight up no one gaming it yet. The sponsors for the Utah matches had to publish some limits because shooters starting to ramp up the equipment. I like the idea and see it as its own separate league/organization.

DFC said:

Shooting like car racing, it is controlled by those with the bucks.

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I can think of more than a few examples that disprove your theory, like:

• NRA and CMP service rifle
• USPSA Production and Carry Optics classes
• IDPA everything except maybe Enhanced Service Pistol class
• Skeet
• Trap
• Sporting clays

I don't like any shooting sport in which "spirit" or "intent" plays any role. There is legal and illegal equipment. There are prohibited and allowable actions. That's it.

jcwarrior87 said:

i saw a part yesterday that just seems to show this:

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I saw a version of that thing in use at the finale... just chuckled and thought "No thanks" to myself.

PRS is not a gear race.... really it's not. It's a sport populated with people who have lots of money to buy shiny new toys, who like shiny new toys, and who also hope that the next new gadget will overcome their lack of practice/talent. It's also populated with people who like to look for excuses to blame their match placement on something besides lack of practice/talent.

I think that there is a certain level of hits that you can buy... there was a seated KYL stage at a local match. Guys with tripods scored better on avg than people trying to use slings or rucks. The guys that won the match still outscored a newbe with a tripod. Where I am saying you can buy some point is that if you took the top 5 guys and made them shoot the stage with / without tripod I am willing to bet that on average they do better with the tripods.

I've got a rear bag, Tac Udder and they provide 90% of my support. There are some times where you can game and pick up points but you still need the fundamental skills.

Hollywood 6mm said:

THat's a drop in the bucket compared to what the top pistol and 3-gun shooters go through. Trying to be at the top of a shooting sport is going to require a LOT of time, effort, and ammo.

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That is an important point, and something that all of these "PRS is turning into a gear race" threads seem to miss.

The big divide (other than innate ability) in any shooting sport between the top shooters and those in the middle of the pack and lower is the effort and time put into practice and training, which means lots and lots of ammo.

Something else I've seen the folks here on the hide (those who really know what they're talking about) say, is that more than anything, all of the extra gear does more to level the playing field and raise the scores of those who aren't top shooters. Take away all of the extra bags and other support gear and the gap between top shooters and everyone else won't shrink, it will widen.