Interesting M25 Info and Pics

Rudy Gonsior · Mar 18, 2018

So back in 2013 I was serving as a lead istructor at the 1st Special Forces Group Sniper Detachment, around this time the detachment was forced to move out of one location to another. It was durning this eviction that the "great purge" of the sniper locker begin. Long dramatic stories aside, the 18C in charge of the property book decide that we need to clean house. Right fully so after 20 years the section had accumulated quite a bit of interesting stuff but much of wasn't particularly useful or practical to hold on to. Needless to say I may have done some serious dumpester diving that week, amoung random old parts and legit garbage I came across a bunch of old files.

Now I'm not a super nerd when it comes to history but can recognize the fact that while there isn't much new under sun there are still quite a few lesson that those before us have learned. Flipping through the mountain of documents I grabbed a few folders with topics that personally interested me, unfortunately due to the whims of life, they've been setting in boxes until this last weekend.

These snippets in particular are from a 1st SFG 1994 proposal for the development of a SOTIC Lv. II at Ft. Lewis WA. Any how I figure some folks might be interested, particularly in some of the M25 stuff as the 10th SFG M25 program at Ft. Devens is heavily reference and there are some interesting pics. I assume some of this stuff hasn't seen the light of day in 20-25 years.

Rudy Gonsior · Mar 18, 2018

More pics...

sandwarrior · Mar 18, 2018

Rudy,

That is some pretty awesome paperwork. And, whoever the author is does not pull punches for the shitheads who don't think a system should be employed...and, so kill it.

In your experience was this common or just what was going on at the time? 1994 was a time of huge cuts in military budgets. 1984 was a monstrous uptick in military budgets. (referring to Ft. Devens range improvements)

Rudy Gonsior · Mar 18, 2018

sandwarrior said:
Rudy,

That is some pretty awesome paperwork. And, whoever the author is does not pull punches for the shitheads who don't think a system should be employed...and, so kill it.

In your experience was this common or just what was going on at the time? 1994 was a time of huge cuts in military budgets. 1984 was a monstrous uptick in military budgets. (referring to Ft. Devens range improvements)

Maj. Eugene Econ wrote most of the memos, SFC Michaelis and CW2 Haugen are responsable for a good portion as well. These guys are still something of a legend in 1st Group. In terms of this being common disposition among SF, I think this still pretty typical amongst the enlisted and warrants but most officers these days propaly wouldn't have the balls to back a proposal thats this aggressive. I think its also worth noting just how dire the circumstances were, the state of sniper sustainment was aguable at an all time low within the Groups with the exception of 10th Group.

FatBoy · Mar 18, 2018

I wasn't Group, just a leg, but his account of the state of arms in 1994 held pretty true to the shit we had in our line arms room both in Germany and at FTCKY.

Good read, and should be required by anyone who is voting to send someone down range. The lessons are never learned though. I was shooting with a guy today who is recently back from Astan. He was a DMR over there. The squads shared one (1) M14 with a M3 variable that had a missing windage knob and wouldn't hold zero. It was the more reliable of the two choices, the other being a wrapped out M110. He said at least the M14 has irons and would run.

It disgusts me that this still happens, 24 years later (18 in constant combat). The lack of concern for the lives of our troops is shocking, and I wish more people knew. Bet Congress isn't going without...

Rudy Gonsior · Mar 18, 2018

I had a interesting conversation with Brain Sain over at the ASA last year. He's been sending optics and other stuff out to guys in positions like your buddy. Honestly though the state of sniping with SOF has probably never been better. It blows my mind than conventional guys are still being put in that position.

pmclaine · Mar 19, 2018

On quiet days I ride the ranges out at Devens. Ill have to look for that shoot house and see if it still exists..

I think there is only one range out there now that goes out to 830 meters (M249 range).

The DOD has spent some money on the ranges recently 600 yard KD rebuilt with motorized target carriages replacing the rusty steel counter weighted hand raised ones of who knows what era and there are a lot of electronic pop ups now controlled from the range tower for interactive training.

Devens is in flux. Most of it is now civilian, DOD is closed off behind steel iron fence.

In the civilian area at the big parade ground the huge brick headquarters buildings are in disrepair abandoned and falling apart. Officers housing is now residential, other base housing torn down and only concrete pads remain indicating where a soldiers home was.

The old BAS exists and seems to be the only link to the bases 1917 beginnings.

Rudy Gonsior · Mar 19, 2018

Oh it still exist, Curry Range Complex is what you want to look for. I train and run classes out there a couple times a year out there. Every thing is still there but in a state of disrepair like the rest of the camp. I actually climbed the shooting tower couple years back, its kinda of a risky deal, Lol. I was talking with the engineers and there is a currant proposal to rebuild the Curry Range to 1500M and open up an SDZ for .300WM. Unfortunately this means bulldozing the building. Kinda of sad but otherwise we have to go to VT in order to shoot our.300WM's. Here's a couple pics from 2016 durning a PMT. You can interpolate some of the change but surprisingly beyond the over growth most of its still the same.

This is on the back porch of the "cabin", other that some beaver damage and in desperate need of some re-modeling it's not doing too bad. Oh there is a beehive in the cupola last time I check.

This is looking out, you can get steel at 825m on that back hill. probably 20 E-types and other 10 or so of the head target from the orginal build are still out there. Ton of great alternate shooting positions, those 10th Group dudes were way a head of there time.

This is on the "new" 600m KD range. This pic doesn't do it justice, but if the engineers put as much effort into Re-building Curry it will be real nice. My fear though is that Curry Range will become "popular" again, which is kinda a double edged blade. I think one of the things that makes it fun is that other than SF and Range Control most units don't even know about it, thus it hasn't been overly abused.

Edit: If you guys do the FaceBook thing, I also remeber I've got a video out at Curry, its a little grainy but you can see more of the layout, here's the link:

I'm the guy tall goofy guy running the gas gun, don't judge me too hard 750m on an a head plate aint easy with Ball!

buffalowinter · Mar 19, 2018

I knew Cpt Curry. We were both in 10th Group when he was killed in the Lockerbee Bombing.

Random Guy · Mar 19, 2018

Thanks for posting this information. Its very interesting reading and if you did up more pictures please do share.

pmclaine · Mar 19, 2018

I shoot with the civilian club that gets access once a month...

Most of the time we get the KD Range (Golf?).....

Sometimes we get the 830 meter range (Hotel?)....

Once in a while Range Control gives us the 400 yard combat qual range....

Beautiful training area but kind of small for big Army ops.

ReaperMedic · Mar 19, 2018

Very cool pictures. Thanks for sharing.

scharfschutze762 · Mar 19, 2018

Rudy Gonsior said:
Oh it still exist, Curry Range Complex is what you want to look for. I train and run classes out there a couple times a year out there. Every thing is still there but in a state of disrepair like the rest of the camp. I actually climbed the shooting tower couple years back, its kinda of a risky deal, Lol. I was talking with the engineers and there is a currant proposal to rebuild the Curry Range to 1500M and open up an SDZ for .300WM. Unfortunately this means bulldozing the building. Kinda of sad but otherwise we have to go to VT in order to shoot our.300WM's. Here's a couple pics from 2016 durning a PMT. You can interpolate some of the change but surprisingly beyond the over growth most of its still the same.

View attachment 6885474
This is on the back porch of the "cabin", other that some beaver damage and in desperate need of some re-modeling it's not doing too bad. Oh there is a beehive in the cupola last time I check.
View attachment 6885475
This is looking out, you can get steel at 825m on that back hill. probably 20 E-types and other 10 or so of the head target from the orginal build are still out there. Ton of great alternate shooting positions, those 10th Group dudes were way a head of there time.
View attachment 6885476
This is on the "new" 600m KD range. This pic doesn't do it justice, but if the engineers put as much effort into Re-building Curry it will be real nice. My fear though is that Curry Range will become "popular" again, which is kinda a double edged blade. I think one of the things that makes it fun is that other than SF and Range Control most units don't even know about it, thus it hasn't been overly abused.

Edit: If you guys do the FaceBook thing, I also remeber I've got a video out at Curry, its a little grainy but you can see more of the layout, here's the link:

I'm the guy tall goofy guy running the gas gun, don't judge me too hard 750m on an a head plate aint easy with Ball!

I can tell you guys arent Mil Spec Ops. Are you LEO?

Rudy Gonsior · Mar 19, 2018

sharfshutz762 said:
I can tell you guys arent Mil Spec Ops. Are you LEO?

Haha! No, we are Miliary but we also teach a lot LE guys up here.

scharfschutze762 · Mar 19, 2018

Sorry guys my bad. Looks like a really nice range.

scharfschutze762 · Mar 19, 2018

Btw did the Army, more specifically SF ever weld the scope mounts to the recievers like the Navy and Marines did?

pmclaine · Mar 19, 2018

sharfshutz762 said:
Sorry guys my bad. Looks like a really nice range.

Don't confuse my civilian pictures with the OPs good works.

I was thinking the OP might have been someone from "back in the day" that would appreciate views of his old stomping grounds.

Seems he still stomps them.

Random Guy · Mar 19, 2018

I found this thread very interesting as I am building a replica of an XM25 sniper rifle as used by 10 SF Group.

The XM25 was developed by Master Sergeant Amelung and Sfc Tom Kapp, with the assistance of BPT owner Mitch Mateiko, who is shown here with original XM25 prototype circa 1988, same range as seen in these pics.

From Peter Senich's book, The Long-Range War, the last page, 268.

Circa Feb 1991 picture of a Navy/Crane small weapons engineer testing a suppressed XM25 at Ft Devens (you can see the shooting tower in the background):

My replica will look similar to the above rifle with forest camo stock, but mine will not be the suppressed version Here's my McMillan stock.

Here's my BPT stock liner needed for an XM25 build:

..and here's a civilian version/replica with apparently a very enthusiastic owner:

...anyhow, I wish I could read the original 10th SFG documents from the late 1980s re the XM25 rifle, but I really appreciate the info in this link.

BangBangBlatBlat · Mar 19, 2018

Those notes look familiar. I wonder if they are Econs.

It sounds like they had a bunch of broken M21's and the spec for that rifle never got updated beyond the 70's. The McMillan stocks were already in use with the major shooting teams at the time, and the Highpower rules were changed to allow for heavier barrels.

Rudy Gonsior · Mar 19, 2018

BangBangBlatBlat said:
Those notes look familiar. I wonder if they are Econs.

It sounds like they had a bunch of broken M21's and the spec for that rifle never got updated beyond the 70's. The McMillan stocks were already in use with the major shooting teams at the time, and the Highpower rules were changed to allow for heavier barrels.

I'm about 99% sure those are Econs notes as his signature is on the man body of the proposal. Michaelis and Haugen are usaually mentioned by name though out the documents, I think they being the certified armors no doubt did the leg work of the inspection but Econ was the face.

BangBangBlatBlat · Mar 19, 2018

Rudy Gonsior said:
I'm about 99% sure those are Econs notes as his signature is on the man body of the proposal. Michaelis and Haugen are usaually mentioned by name though out the documents, I think they being the certified armors no doubt did the leg work of the inspection but Econ was the face.

I used to shoot with Gene on Range 22 when I first started out with Across the Course shooting. The guy who builds all my M14s was the same guy who built the Washington Guards match guns and sniper rifles, and won some of the big sniper matches in the 90's. He also went to the SOTIC course they had on Lewis. He also has the same note-taking style, just with better handwriting.

Talking to my friend, it seems that the McMillan for the Devens cutout was actually laid up a little differently by McMillan, the receiver was also ground to fit the liner, and that a lot of the M25's didn't have the bedding block. One of the potential downsides of the block was that you had no assurances that the gun would shoot well when you put a new barrel on it, just due to the nature of how tension on the gas cylinder can affect accuracy.

He also told me that some guy is still making the M25 liners, but they are not the same because they are 2 or 3 pieces welded together and are not perfectly straight like the original ones. The other issue is that external dimensions for M14 receivers, especially commercial ones are all over the place.

Rudy Gonsior · Mar 19, 2018

@Random Guy - Those pics are great, I've seen a couple before but I had never put two and two together that those are taken at Curry Range! I almost positiove that table and chair are still out there. The rock pile in pictures 1 and 2 hasn't moved. If you ever make it out to Devens there is a an old 10th Group guy (served probably mid 90's?) who works at the range control. He's talked my ear off a couple times about Kapp an them, great guy.

pmclaine said:
Don't confuse my civilian pictures with the OPs good works.

I was thinking the OP might have been someone from "back in the day" that would appreciate views of his old stomping grounds.

Seems he still stomps them.

@pmclaine - While I'm not from "back in the day"...yet, I do appreciate the pics, Hotel range is another fun range at Devens. You said you guys are out there one a month? I live in Maine and work out of Nashua now, one of these days I'd be cool to link up. Feel free to PM me.

@BangBangBlatBlat - I've spent quite a few hours of my life on Range 22, probably well after your time I guess.

Rudy Gonsior · Mar 19, 2018

Random Guy said:
...anyhow, I wish I could read the original 10th SFG documents from the late 1980s re the XM25 rifle, but I really appreciate the info in this link.

...Actually, standby there are a few 10th Group docs in the appendix, nothing special but its something.

Rudy Gonsior · Mar 19, 2018

sandwarrior said:
Rudy,

That is some pretty awesome paperwork. And, whoever the author is does not pull punches for the shitheads who don't think a system should be employed...and, so kill it.

In your experience was this common or just what was going on at the time? 1994 was a time of huge cuts in military budgets. 1984 was a monstrous uptick in military budgets. (referring to Ft. Devens range improvements)

Found this course critique form the first SOTIC Lv. II at Lewis, it made me laugh but it definitely give a feel for the average dissipation of team guys at the time.

I would have gotten my ass remmed out my Group SMG for something like that...ironicly one of the students was one of my old SGMs, Jon Iliff. Kind of always came off as a dick but then again thats what SGMs do, so I can't hold it against him.

pmclaine · Mar 19, 2018

Rudy Gonsior said:
If you ever make it out to Devens there is a an old 10th Group guy (served probably mid 90's?) who works at the range control. He's talked my ear off a couple times about Kapp an them, great guy.

Joe C. Has the gift of gab for sure, Great guy!

Rudy Gonsior said:
@pmclaine - While I'm not from "back in the day"...yet, I do appreciate the pics, Hotel range is another fun range at Devens. You said you guys are out there one a month? I live in Maine and work out of Nashua now, one of these days I'd be cool to link up. Feel free to PM me.

That Mexican space shuttle at the front gate of South Post is my personal office away from my work zone. Im at Devens quite a bit and I wish I could shoot it more but am happy for what range Control provides us now as precarious as the chance is due to the political winds of change.

sandwarrior · Mar 20, 2018

Rudy Gonsior said:
Haha! No, we are Miliary but we also teach a lot LE guys up here.

I thought you retired?

Added: Reading a little more in depth, I can truly appreciate the job I did down at the 1st Ranger Batt from '84 through part of '85. So much was going on, but so much change was needed to really bring it up to speed. The stuffed shirts were having their way as much as possible. Seems like that all too often.

Rudy Gonsior · Mar 20, 2018

sandwarrior said:
I thought you retired?

Never!

I actually rolled over to the National Guard, just squeezing a few more years in.

Random Guy · Mar 21, 2018

BangBangBlatBlat said:
I used to shoot with Gene on Range 22 when I first started out with Across the Course shooting. The guy who builds all my M14s was the same guy who built the Washington Guards match guns and sniper rifles, and won some of the big sniper matches in the 90's. He also went to the SOTIC course they had on Lewis. He also has the same note-taking style, just with better handwriting.

Talking to my friend, it seems that the McMillan for the Devens cutout was actually laid up a little differently by McMillan, the receiver was also ground to fit the liner, and that a lot of the M25's didn't have the bedding block. One of the potential downsides of the block was that you had no assurances that the gun would shoot well when you put a new barrel on it, just due to the nature of how tension on the gas cylinder can affect accuracy.

He also told me that some guy is still making the M25 liners, but they are not the same because they are 2 or 3 pieces welded together and are not perfectly straight like the original ones. The other issue is that external dimensions for M14 receivers, especially commercial ones are all over the place.

****
You are right that a lot of M25s didn't use liners. Only 250 XM25 liners were made circa 1988-1990ish, and I have read the M25 specification dropped the liner due to the excess time and effort required to install the XM25 liners.

BTW, the owner of BPT, Mitch Matieko (and seen in the above 1988 picture), was coaxed out of retirement in the spring of 2017 and over the summer he made 40 more sets of XM25 liners. I was able to buy 2 from him, so these are exactly like the originals, except he stamped a little "BPT" inside for verification purposes . They were always 3 pieces welded together.

[/IMG]
'BPT' stamped inside one of the legs:

I sent my receiver to him and he ground the legs slightly to ensure the proper 3 degree angle and corner fit to the liner:

Here's the old original fixture that BPT used to grind the legs to ensure proper fit to the XM25 liner:

Also, the pieces were welded together with the articulated welder:

Here's the box of 40 XM25 liners that were made by Mitch and sold to eager collectors last year (this was a true 'unicorn' part prior to this batch of 40 liners that were made last summer):

...Anyhow, its been a year long journey but my XM25 is getting a little closer to fruition...

njohn890 · Mar 25, 2018

Don’t intend to hijack the thread, but it is interesting to read the course overview where it details how using the M24 with iron sights on a KD course was a means to teach the finer points of effects of elevation and windage that would then be applied by the student to the M3A day optic.

I used to make some trips south to shoot OTC and Prone Hi Power in Washington in the mid 90’s and met Maj Econ a few times when he would bring SF guys to civilian shoots sporting their M24’s with iron sights attached. I didn’t fully understand the benefit to them at he time but this shines some light on it now.

BBBB don’t know how often you went to Machias, Tacoma or Puyallup we might have shot some of the same events.

sandwarrior · Mar 25, 2018

To some of you "in the know" guys, how well did the M3 scopes hold up to the the various recoil impulses of the M25 vs. how they held up on the M24's? As mentioned above both systems post date me.

Random Guy · Mar 26, 2018

"To some of you "in the know" guys, how well did the M3 scopes hold up to the the various recoil impulses of the M25 vs. how they held up on the M24's? As mentioned above both systems post date me."

I am not an "in the know" guy, but I have read enough about the early Leupold Tactical scopes to offer an opinion. In the mid to late 1980s Leupold sold to the US military 10x M3As (used on the M24 SWS), 10x M1A s (used on Navy M14 sniper rifles and others), and some 16x M1A scopes used on 50 BMG sniper rifles. To the best of my knowledge, they all worked fine and I have not read of scopes failing due to recoil forces. The USMC put some M1A 16x scopes of some experimental "big rifles" and if these two rifles didn't break the Leupold Tactical scopes of that era...

....then I think its safe to say that a little 7.62x51mm recoil in an M24 or M25 isn't going to hurt an M3A Ultra scope. Yep, the recoil of the M25 semi-auto is nothing compared to a 50 BMG or a 14.5mm x 114mm round (my shoulder and ears almost hurt just looking at that massive muzzle break on that 14.5mm rifle...) The M3A and M1A scopes are equal in reliability, just different style turrets. I have a 1989 and 1990 dated M3A scope, and they work fine.

sandwarrior · Mar 26, 2018

Random,

The thing that made me wonder was the different direction impulses of the recoil felt in the M25. Seemed like I heard a lot of good things about them. Then, someone comes along and points out what they didn't have. Then after that someone comes along and says they fell apart. ...?!?!?

I found that very surprising as I can somewhat agree with the "they aren't what we hoped they would be" statement (optics and function). But, I haven't had one fall apart on me and I've had some go through some pretty strenuous misuse. Not intentional. My 6.5x20 was landed on directly, by my heavy barrel 7x57, from a fall of about four feet. It never lost zero. In spite of some dents on the front ring (from another fall) and one in the body, it was one of my best accuracy scopes for shooting groups I ever had. Maybe it wasn't optimal for long range UKD shooting, but it held zero.

Come to think of it wasn't there a pic of an M3A with a bullet hole through it? Or was that an M4?

Random Guy · Mar 26, 2018

The ad with the bullet hole in the military scope was a NightForce ad as I recall,

Here's what I know of the M3A scope. The M24 with the M3A scope was adopted in 1988 and served continuously for the next 22 years, until the M24s were rebuilt into the XM2010 configuration and the optics were upgraded to a newer Leupold Tactical scope. I think the M3A was robust enough and worked fine. The main drawback to the M3A 10x scopes was the 1 MOA adjustment for elevation vs 1/2 MOA for windage. At 1000 yards each click moved POI up or down 10 inches, which is a little too coarse for precision work (the later Mk 4 scopes now have finer adjustments). My buddy went through Army Sniper school in 2009 and issued an M24 w/ M3A scope that he used in Afghanistan, and he had no complaints about this combo. (In fact he wanted to buy my M24R as seen below when I showed it to him back in 2015 after I have purchased it online).

My M24R has a 1989 dated M3A scope. It has finish wear and the camo paint from its prior service life was previously removed except some on the Butler Creek scope covers. It had lots of fine contamination or "pits" on the rear ocular glass lense when I got it, maybe it got caught in a sand storm? It worked fine and I used it in a vintage sniper rifle competition at 800 and 1000 yards at Quantico, but last year year I sent it to Leupold for cleaning and they replaced the rear ocular lense and cleaned internals and knobs, etc (all under warranty, which is great). Glass looks new and perfect again, and the scope still has the nice patina/finish wear to match the US Army M24 take-off stock that came on my rifle. Here's that 1989 M3A scope, still performing well 29 years later...(hint hint if someone has a spare M3A 10X that they could live without...)

...Bottomline, if the US Army had legitimate reliability or performance problems with the M3A scopes, they would have found a replacement for them back in the 1990s, but instead they used them for 22 years straight until the M24s were updated in 2010, and many of those old scopes continue to provide service on the 2,000 or so rebuilt M24s (M24Rs) that were sold to the public over the past few years. In fact I'd like to find one more M3A as a back-up scope for my XM25 replica project that is underway. (Just in case somebody has a spare M3A Ultra they could sell).

sandwarrior · Mar 26, 2018

Random,

It's kind of funny about the POI, but in reality, it's what's needed. Less than one moa change just takes too long if you are dialing. Especially since you have a mildot reticle that you can hold off of. Meaning a 1k shot would move 10.5" per click, just hold a mildot or half a mildot up or down depending. Getting good at spotting and holding off were one of the trademark qualities of a mildot scope. People got really good at using them that way.

Harv24 · Apr 1, 2018

Wow.... What great thread with a butt load of great history. Thanks for taking the time to save it and post pics of it...

FatBoy · Apr 1, 2018

sandwarrior said:
Random,

It's kind of funny about the POI, but in reality, it's what's needed. Less than one moa change just takes too long if you are dialing. Especially since you have a mildot reticle that you can hold off of. Meaning a 1k shot would move 10.5" per click, just hold a mildot or half a mildot up or down depending. Getting good at spotting and holding off were one of the trademark qualities of a mildot scope. People got really good at using them that way.

I was talking to an SF(R) buddy about scopes when we were discussing my first mk12 build. He used both the 3.5-10M3 and the NXS 2.5-10x24 downrange so I was picking his brain about pros and cons. I started talking about the M3 being faster to dial up and he was like, who the F has time to dial? He set his zero at X yards and has hold unders an hold over set up. Said it was fast and good enough for a clean shot to at least 600 yards, which was inside normal engagements for the AOs he frequented.

FWIW, he likes the M3s a lot but said he wished he did a combat loss statement on the 24mm NXS.

Rudy Gonsior · Apr 1, 2018

Yeah dialing when out of style some time ago at least in the Army SOF community along time ago. When I when through in 09' the "poor mans horus" technique was the predominant used buy most guys. Basically 100m zero at the crosshairs and then dial 17 MOA up to the top of the mildot reticle, this gave 10 mrads of elevation, so about 800-900m worth of elevation. Some folks thing its too hard holding out in space but if you practice, you can get pretty good and its twice as fast than spinning dials. The dials on the M3 Ultras range anywhere from "pretty not bad" to "I know I'm within +/- 2 MOA". Other than that the only other beef I had was the fixed 10x, the glass on the Ultras was quite good for the time period. The Mk4 3.5-10x seem to have a lesser glass quality but the varable power optic was a great for urban ops so the trade off was worth it.

sandwarrior · Apr 1, 2018

FatBoy said:
I was talking to an SF(R) buddy about scopes when we were discussing my first mk12 build. He used both the 3.5-10M3 and the NXS 2.5-10x24 downrange so I was picking his brain about pros and cons. I started talking about the M3 being faster to dial up and he was like, who the F has time to dial? He set his zero at X yards and has hold unders an hold over set up. Said it was fast and good enough for a clean shot to at least 600 yards, which was inside normal engagements for the AOs he frequented.

FWIW, he likes the M3s a lot but said he wished he did a combat loss statement on the 24mm NXS.

Rudy Gonsior said:
Yeah dialing when out of style some time ago at least in the Army SOF community along time ago. When I when through in 09' the "poor mans horus" technique was the predominant used buy most guys. Basically 100m zero at the crosshairs and then dial 17 MOA up to the top of the mildot reticle, this gave 10 mrads of elevation, so about 800-900m worth of elevation. Some folks thing its too hard holding out in space but if you practice, you can get pretty good and its twice as fast than spinning dials. The dials on the M3 Ultras range anywhere from "pretty not bad" to "I know I'm within +/- 2 MOA". Other than that the only other beef I had was the fixed 10x, the glass on the Ultras was quite good for the time period. The Mk4 3.5-10x seem to have a lesser glass quality but the varable power optic was a great for urban ops so the trade off was worth it.

Guys,
I agree with the no dialing. I don't dial with my USO except to get extended range. I should have said "If" you have to dial. Of course the big thing with that is being able to see what you're actually dialing, not just counting clicks. I hate to say it, but yeah, I'm old enough we counted clicks and turns. I didn't get set up with a set of target knobs until the late 90's. Not to mention everything back then was SFP, so unless you dialed onto the corresponding power that the movement correlated to, you were off.

I'm sure glad somebody in the scope world started thinking about this and said, "This is STUPID!" FFP, and marked out reticles help a ton.

Random Guy · Apr 2, 2018

"Less than one moa change just takes too long if you are dialing. Especially since you have a mildot reticle that you can hold off of. Meaning a 1k shot would move 10.5" per click, just hold a mildot or half a mildot up or down depending."

Well, my comment re the 1' MOA elevation adjustment limitation of the M3A scope is in the context of the vintage sniper rifle matches that I shot that rifle in, which is the twice annual Quantico Shooting Club events held in April and September. I think they use F-class targets (not the CMP targets), with ranges at 300, 600, 800 and 1000 yards. For the Saturday matches the X-ring is I think 3" in diameter, so at 300 yards its a 1 MOA X-ring, and that same target at 600 yards is just a 1/2 MOA x-ring. Here's some pics:

Here's on with my hand and some 1" target patches to give it some scale:

Here's the 800 and 1000 yard targets, which I think have a 5" X-ring, so that' a 1/2 MOA target at 1000 yards, and with a 1 MOA ajustment is too coarse. Holding at 1/2 the distance between the Mil-Dot at that range is 18"...but the 10 ring is about half that diameter.... So again, the M3A scope has limits as far as competition is concerned at 1000 yards when dealing with these targets, but in a combat setting with "center mass" as the goal - and not a 1/2 MOA X-ring - it works fine.

Speaking of competitions, in April 2016 I took my M24R with Leupold M3A Ultra 10x scope to the Sunday event for the 800 and 1000 yard match. It had a 100 yard zero and I had only broken in the barrel at that point at 100 yards, and not shot it beyond that range. (I got the rife in August 2015 and had only shot it a couple of times in the fall of 2015..). However, once I got it dialed in at 800 yards that day at Quantico, I actually shot waht I think is still a personal best at 800 yards, with a score of 193-7x (out of 200 possible points). I had to hold-over a little bit as the X-ring is only 5 inches in diameter. My shooting buddy took this short clip of me sighting in it that day at 800 yards.

Here's the target at 800 yards with an X-ring hit (I think the spotting disc is ~5" and will mostly cover the x-ring if placed in the center).

My shooting partner was using his M40A5 w/ S&B 3-12x scope that has .1 Mil adjustments, which I are 4" per click at 1000 yards, so its easier to dial it in at that range (and of course the 2nd generation Mil-Dots have hash-marks b/t the Mils which helps too...but I still somehow managed to outshoot him by 10 points at 800 yards, my 193-7x vs his 183 score, but I think I was just really lucky at that yard line. At 1000 yards my scores fell apart and he got his revenge with a score about 22 points higher than mine (I had a miss or a crossfire at 1000 yds - opps)...but its all for fun and good times in that match. Hope to go back down there in 3 weeks for the first match of 2018.

sandwarrior · Apr 2, 2018

Random,

I do a agree that in a competition setting, it would be nicer to have a finer adjustment. My point was in the field, the multiple "click in the dark counting" was taking too long.
Funny, though, that was a short period in time. At some point shortly after they were introduced, target knobs became available, making the counting obsolete. Whether it was 1/4 moa or 1 moa, didn't matter as you could see on the knob where you were.

Added: Sorry, missed the blurb where you said that exact same thing

Forgetful Coyote · Apr 2, 2018

Random Guy said:
"Less than one moa change just takes too long if you are dialing. Especially since you have a mildot reticle that you can hold off of. Meaning a 1k shot would move 10.5" per click, just hold a mildot or half a mildot up or down depending."

Well, my comment re the 1' MOA elevation adjustment limitation of the M3A scope is in the context of the vintage sniper rifle matches that I shot that rifle in, which is the twice annual Quantico Shooting Club events held in April and September. I think they use F-class targets (not the CMP targets), with ranges at 300, 600, 800 and 1000 yards. For the Saturday matches the X-ring is I think 3" in diameter, so at 300 yards its a 1 MOA X-ring, and that same target at 600 yards is just a 1/2 MOA x-ring. Here's some pics:

Here's on with my hand and some 1" target patches to give it some scale:

Here's the 800 and 1000 yard targets, which I think have a 5" X-ring, so that' a 1/2 MOA target at 1000 yards, and with a 1 MOA ajustment is too coarse. Holding at 1/2 the distance between the Mil-Dot at that range is 18"...but the 10 ring is about half that diameter.... So again, the M3A scope has limits as far as competition is concerned at 1000 yards when dealing with these targets, but in a combat setting with "center mass" as the goal - and not a 1/2 MOA X-ring - it works fine.

Speaking of competitions, in April 2016 I took my M24R with Leupold M3A Ultra 10x scope to the Sunday event for the 800 and 1000 yard match. It had a 100 yard zero and I had only broken in the barrel at that point at 100 yards, and not shot it beyond that range. (I got the rife in August 2015 and had only shot it a couple of times in the fall of 2015..). However, once I got it dialed in at 800 yards that day at Quantico, I actually shot waht I think is still a personal best at 800 yards, with a score of 193-7x (out of 200 possible points). I had to hold-over a little bit as the X-ring is only 5 inches in diameter. My shooting buddy took this short clip of me sighting in it that day at 800 yards.

Here's the target at 800 yards with an X-ring hit (I think the spotting disc is a 4 or 4.5" and it will cover the x-ring if placed in the center).

My shooting partner was using his M40A5 w/ S&B 3-12x scope that has .1 Mil adjustments, which I are 4" per click at 1000 yards, so its easier to dial it in at that range (and of course the 2nd generation Mil-Dots have hash-marks b/t the Mils which helps too...but I still somehow managed to outshoot him by 10 points at 800 yards, my 193-7x vs his 183 score, but I think I was just really lucky at that yard line. At 1000 yards my scores fell apart and he got his revenge with a score about 22 points higher than mine (I had a miss or a crossfire at 1000 yds - opps)...but its all for fun and good times in that match. Hope to go back down there in 3 weeks for the first match of 2018.

CMP Vintage Sniper uses F Class targets? And they let you use modern snipers? Or what competition is it that yall are shooting the M24R and M40A5 in?

Forgetful Coyote · Apr 2, 2018

Rudy Gonsior said:
Oh it still exist, Curry Range Complex is what you want to look for. I train and run classes out there a couple times a year out there. Every thing is still there but in a state of disrepair like the rest of the camp. I actually climbed the shooting tower couple years back, its kinda of a risky deal, Lol. I was talking with the engineers and there is a currant proposal to rebuild the Curry Range to 1500M and open up an SDZ for .300WM. Unfortunately this means bulldozing the building. Kinda of sad but otherwise we have to go to VT in order to shoot our.300WM's. Here's a couple pics from 2016 durning a PMT. You can interpolate some of the change but surprisingly beyond the over growth most of its still the same.

View attachment 6885474
This is on the back porch of the "cabin", other that some beaver damage and in desperate need of some re-modeling it's not doing too bad. Oh there is a beehive in the cupola last time I check.
View attachment 6885475
This is looking out, you can get steel at 825m on that back hill. probably 20 E-types and other 10 or so of the head target from the orginal build are still out there. Ton of great alternate shooting positions, those 10th Group dudes were way a head of there time.
View attachment 6885476
This is on the "new" 600m KD range. This pic doesn't do it justice, but if the engineers put as much effort into Re-building Curry it will be real nice. My fear though is that Curry Range will become "popular" again, which is kinda a double edged blade. I think one of the things that makes it fun is that other than SF and Range Control most units don't even know about it, thus it hasn't been overly abused.

Edit: If you guys do the FaceBook thing, I also remeber I've got a video out at Curry, its a little grainy but you can see more of the layout, here's the link:

I'm the guy tall goofy guy running the gas gun, don't judge me too hard 750m on an a head plate aint easy with Ball!

Im guessing those aint issue weapons?

Random Guy · Apr 3, 2018

"MP Vintage Sniper uses F Class targets? And they let you use modern snipers? Or what competition is it that yall are shooting the M24R and M40A5 in?"

CMP vintage sniper matches are limited to 1953 or earlier platforms. The Quantico Shooting Club has been offering a "Vintage Precision Rifle Match" since 2012 or so that has evolved into 3 categories: Vintage (same as CMP), "Vietnam" era and beginning in 2015 or 2016 they added a "Modern" era so guys with M40A1 clones, M24R and M40A5 replicas could compete with them. Here's the match info (read carefully):

http://www.quanticoshootingclub.com/sites/default/files/PDF FILES/Vintage Match Bulletin 2018.pdf

...for some reason I thought other ranges in the U.S. have begun offering similar events, but everytime I mention this event people get confused, so I guess I must be really lucky to live close enough to Quantico to shoot at this match a couple of times a year. M40A1 clones are especially welcome, and the PWS 2112 will sometimes bring out the last of the M40A1s for service members or veterans to use in the match (although not in 2017).

USMC M40A1s that are sometimes brought out and used in these matches (depending on PWS CO and a sufficient ammo allocation for match):

Here's some random pics. This 2015 picture of two 'Vietam era" rifles shows one guy using a real, honest-to-goodness Russian-made Draganov (last of the 1994 imports), and to his left you can see my Vietnam era M40 clone with green 3-9x Leupold/Redfield scope. This was the 800 yard line:

Memorial Day weekend match (vintage rifles in the background, plus some Vietnam in the center of the picture, and closest is the "modern" category: that includes an M25 style rifle and a few M40A1 replicas:

My 1903A1 with 8x Leatherwood scope at 300 yards:

Here's a brave soul using a 1903A4 w/ 2.5x Lyman Alaskan scope at 1000 yards during a 2017 match:

Its a fun match, and it allows guys with Vietnam era and 'modern' era precision rifles to use them in friendly competition.

sandwarrior · Apr 4, 2018

So Rudy, I gotta ask what happened to the ART II's that were on the unserviceable M21's?

Random Guy · Apr 5, 2018

I can't speak for Rudy, but here's my historical understanding re the disposition of the AR TEL and ART II scopes. In 1988 the M24SWS became the official US Army sniper rifle and the M21 was deemed obsolete. Of course a few M21s continued to soldier on into the early to mid 1990s, esp in National Guard Units, and some were used in Desert Storm circa 1991. According to Lee Emerson's excellent book, in late 1992- early 1993 the Army's M21s at the 82nd Airborne were ordered to be removed from inventory, dissembled, and the receivers were torch cut by the US Army per higher authority. My assumption is this decommissioning order regarding M21s applied to other US Army units, but I am not sure regarding 1st Special Forces Group.

The good news is that all those scopes were retained and the DCM (which became the CMP in 1996) was given the scopes for disposal/public sale. In the mid-1990s era DCM/CMP sold off hundreds (I think over a thousand) AR TEL and ART II scopes that had been removed from M21 rifles.

My ART with case was sold by the CMP in 1995 (based on the receipt that I got from the original buyer's family member). Here's what it came with from CMP (receipt is dated from spring 1995);

One thing neat about my ART II is that the serial # of the original M21 is stamped on the mount (Its a 1.50M block which was a late TRW M14):

It is my understanding DCM/CMP sold the AR TEL and ART II scopes in 3 flavors;
-Complete scope and mount in serviceable condition with transport case
-Complete scope and mount but no transport case
-Incomplete or otherwise with defects (often a broken reticle, etc)

So the vast majority of these former military M21 scopes that are on the private market today were sold by DCM in the mid-1990s after the Army deemed them obsolete. My guess is the 1st SFG M21 rifles may have been scheduled to be decommissioned by the early 1990s, and the ART II scopes should have ended up at DCM/CMP shortly after the report was written, but that is just a guess based on some aspects of the M21's history.

sandwarrior · Apr 6, 2018

Who made your ART II Random? Reason I ask, is several moons ago, I sold a civilian version/cross of the ART/ARTII to KraigWY that was made, I believe by Weaver? He reports it is an excellent deer scope.

'Course, he IS in the land of big muleys.

Random Guy · Apr 7, 2018

sandwarrior, not sure I understand the question. The military ART II scopes were made by Leatherwood Optics (back when Jim Leatherwood ran the company). The US Army placed its first order for ART II scopes in June 1980. My understanding is that in the 1980s the ART IIs were all made by the "Leatherwood Optics" After he retired (passed away?) the company was sold, a few times I think, and its now a Chinese company "HiLux/Leahterwood". There have been several "ART" scopes made that were not adopted by the military (ie, ART I, and in the 1990s Springfield Armory made an "ART IV" scope, etc).

Maybe Weaver owned it for a brief time but I have not read that. Again, my scope serial #4802 (also stamped on the mount along with an M21 serial #) was presumably made in the 1980s by the Leatherwood Optics Company...at least that is my understanding based on my reading of this history in Peter Senich's book, The Long-Range War (1994)

BTW: IronSights purchased all the spare parts when the Leatherwood Optics company was closed down, and they can apparently service the ART II scopes, but the wait time is a year or something like that.
http://ironsightinc.com/index.php?route=common/leatherwood

sandwarrior · Apr 7, 2018

My understanding was Weaver and Redfield, and possibly others(?) built them under license for Leatherwood...up to a point. I'm not sure when

pmclaine · Apr 14, 2018

Beautiful morning with some down time.

Checked out some history.

I will shoot this some day God willing or better yet when I retire this will be what my front yard looks like.

Fed Gold Medal Match Commercial

Even saved a big box turtle. She was crossing from the pond to the sandy side of the road for some egg laying. A little early but soon that place will be awash in terrapins....

I dont know how or why the military does it but regardless of the climate zone and regional environment every military base has somehow been able to establish an area that reminds me of North Carolina. Im convinced if the military built a training base in Antarctica there would suddenly appear an area with white pine and sandy gravel soil to remind me of every single base Id ever been on that was in the Carolina region.

pmclaine · Apr 16, 2018

Huh speak enough to people and you learn the world is smaller than you would expect.

Sent the fine gentleman that runs the civilian rifle and pistol club at Devens my pictures from Curry and my hopes that we can schedule a shoot there and he mentioned his M1A was built by a 10th SF armorer and has a bunch of Brookfield parts in it.

I never made the connection that Brookfield Precision Tool was in Brookfield, MA.

Its a beautiful rifle. Ive see him iron sighting the Crazy Ivans at 900 yards over on Hotel range.

Im planning on shooting May 8th with the club at 600 yards Ill get some pictures of his M1A.

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