you missed the whole point.
point is, that you can set records with the primitive priming tool.
and this is whole argumnet with orkan.
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you missed the whole point.
point is, that you can set records with the primitive priming tool.
and this is whole argumnet with orkan.
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Hate to say it but I agree here. The CPS is great ergonomically and I think it’s worth it from that perspective. But the claims about seeing better performance on target aren’t credible and haven’t been proven, and clearly it’s possible to get ammo that performs better than 99.9% of shooters can ever see without a CPS.
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Ya, I’m not remotely claiming the CPS will improve the shooter.
But this dude has no idea what he’s even arguing about.
Just a quick search turns up others talking about CLR for cleaning as early as 2011 and TBAC has been recommending for cans for years.
Milsurp cleaning Q: CLR for deep cleaning?
There's a product out there called CLR (Calcium, Lime, Rust) that's marketed to dissolve those substances. Might this be a good candidate for cleaning an old milsurp barrel that may have some rust? Thanks!
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I didn't hear or see the claim made that the cps would help any specific number of shooters or any specific amount. In fact, the whole conversation centes around tiny gains in accuracy, which i would think 99% of shooters also wouldnt be able to see. I could definitely have missed it and I haven't watched al videos ect. either, but what I took from what Greg said was that the seating depth of primers effects accuracy to a degree. If Mr bench rest champion is hand sorting primers and seating by feel, he must think it matters too. The witch doctor video also seems to give some credibility to the idea that primer seating depth does effect accuracy. Whether or not the effect really matters to most shooters is a different matter, and it likely wouldn't matter much to most shooters.
Again, if I missed something Greg said then point it out to me but the overall impression I got was that "primer seating does effect accuracy and the cps will let you control that depth to within 1 thou, and it's also much safer and easier to use. " That seems to at minimum be plausible, especially for those chasing every tiny bit they can get.
This is a hobby/sport/whatever where some folks dry their powder, people are turning brass cases on tiny lathes, ect.... all for tiny gains in accuracy that 99% of shooters won't be able to see.
All that said, I use a Franklin Armory hand primer and I like it a lot. I can set the depth with it and it let's me prime sitting down in my chair, or watching a movie with my kids.... so I'm very unlikely to get a cps anytime soon. I also don't think I could see the difference in my groups with it, but some might can...
Good lord he is such a snowflake blowhard. You can’t find a thread where he doesn’t get his panties tied in a knot because - well simply because somebody disagrees with him. He longs and pines to be treated with reverence & deference. And when he doesn’t get it he has a tantrum. To wit:
“
If people still want to argue with me, that's ok. Free country and all. Doesn't mean I have to argue with them. I'm not bitter about it anymore. Their loss and all that. lol
Every single year, every month, week, day... a new guy pops up on a forum that works 40-60hrs a week as an accountant, or doctor, or HVAC installer, or who knows what, and they start shouting at people in here claiming they have it figured out. Shouting at guys that have been pursuing this discipline longer than I have... and I've been at it a long time. I've watched it happen consistently for almost 20 years on this forum.
I've always wondered how someone that spends that much time on something that ISN'T shooting, can know so much about shooting. How does that guy have it all figured out... when I don't? How can he own a boat, an RV, a pair of motorcycles, with all the social obligations, and all the other demands on what little free time he has... have it all figured out the way he talks on here? I guess devoting my life and the majority of my waking hours pursuing this discipline, isn't enough.
I used to be bitter about it, and come down on the rookies really hard. I'm sure there are folks out there with more time invested than I. When I really think about it... I suck. I don't have my 300yd tunnel built yet. I don't have electronic target screens and high end analytical software to use them with. There's so much I don't have... it's pathetic. I still don't have an AMP annealer... mainly because I just haven't got around to ordering one. That, and they keep changing it for the better, so I keep waiting for the "final" best version to show up. lol”.
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“
If people still want to argue with me, that's ok. Free country and all. Doesn't mean I have to argue with them. I'm not bitter about it anymore. Their loss and all that. lol
Every single year, every month, week, day... a new guy pops up on a forum that works 40-60hrs a week as an accountant, or doctor, or HVAC installer, or who knows what, and they start shouting at people in here claiming they have it figured out. Shouting at guys that have been pursuing this discipline longer than I have... and I've been at it a long time. I've watched it happen consistently for almost 20 years on this forum.I've always wondered how someone that spends that much time on something that ISN'T shooting, can know so much about shooting. How does that guy have it all figured out... when I don't? How can he own a boat, an RV, a pair of motorcycles, with all the social obligations, and all the other demands on what little free time he has... have it all figured out the way he talks on here? I guess devoting my life and the majority of my waking hours pursuing this discipline, isn't enough.
I used to be bitter about it, and come down on the rookies really hard. I'm sure there are folks out there with more time invested than I. When I really think about it... I suck. I don't have my 300yd tunnel built yet. I don't have electronic target screens and high end analytical software to use them with. There's so much I don't have... it's pathetic. I still don't have an AMP annealer... mainly because I just haven't got around to ordering one. That, and they keep changing it for the better, so I keep waiting for the "final" best version to show up. lol”. Annealing Brass - Science vs Myths
Since I said it first - I don't have any proof. I offered it as an alternative to the original proposition that the flame was somehow 'burning away material' or 'producing oxide fumes.' Since only about 5% of oxide fumes come from the piece being welded, and the vast majority of welding fumes...
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This statement is textbook false equivalence. A causal fallacy to be specific. You are trying to claim some correlation is causation. It is not.
So this person can set records with a hand primer. That in itself does not prove or disprove anything about the CPS.
How do you know from this information that he can't shoot better with a CPS? Has he tried one? Has he reported his results? If he did not see an improvement, did he do everything to take advantage of the potential of the CPS? Can he do an equal job with the CPS but do it faster? Do it with less fatigue?
If you can't answer any of the above questions, then your statement is meaningless. And logically flawed.
Sounds like a "professional skeptic" response on both sides...
I don't know that the term "Professional Skeptic" can be applied here. I thought that term was very specifically applied to accounting.
Either way, even if you can apply it here, it doesn't go both ways. You can't use flawed logic to try and defend your preconceived notion, such as the posts that were referenced above, then claim yourself to be neutrally critical. That is the very opposite of neutral, and the very opposite of the scientific method.
I was waiting for him to claim he invented the question mark.
Here's a clue:
When EVERYONE is a bully, YOU are the fucking bully! People don't like you and want to fuck with you on line, not because they're skeptics or bad people, but because you bring it on yourself! By being such a pompous, know-it-all ass, and expecting adulation you invite ridicule. It's like you are screaming for it. I have to stop myself because I feel like your posts are damn near manipulative, like you're a masochist and enjoy it or something!
For someone who wears your faith on your sleeve it amazes me that you seem to have no humility or self awareness whatsoever. Do you brow beat people at your Bible Study if they disagree with your opinion? How's that working out for you? 'Bout the same?
I feel bad for you, and then you start typing and that feeling goes right away.
Here's a clue:
When EVERYONE is a bully, YOU are the fucking bully! People don't like you and want to fuck with you on line, not because they're skeptics or bad people, but because you bring it on yourself! By being such a pompous, know-it-all ass, and expecting adulation you invite ridicule. It's like you are screaming for it. I have to stop myself because I feel like your posts are damn near manipulative, like you're a masochist and enjoy it or something!
For someone who wears your faith on your sleeve it amazes me that you seem to have no humility or self awareness whatsoever. Do you brow beat people at your Bible Study if they disagree with your opinion? How's that working out for you? 'Bout the same?
I feel bad for you, and then you start typing and that feeling goes right away.
Without specific regard to whether CPS and primer seating depths/crush provide detectable benefits to precision, it is my view that skepticism is the appropriate approach when presented w some new assertion.
Yes, there are a LOT of “not invented here” and “ you called my baby ugly” people who are entrenched in their position. Reminds me of that old line from Pogo: “I know what I know, don’t confuse me w facts”.
To me, this is true.
But IMO it does not justify Greg’s highly defensive broadside shot against forums and the very (often overly) enthusiastic debates we see here.
There are people here pursuing actual, provable, data (@Ledzep leaps to mind but there are many others) who will indeed be skeptics unless and until the assertion can be proven. Until proof is provided and validated, skepticism is the proper attitude, I think.
Yes, there are a LOT of “not invented here” and “ you called my baby ugly” people who are entrenched in their position. Reminds me of that old line from Pogo: “I know what I know, don’t confuse me w facts”.
To me, this is true.
But IMO it does not justify Greg’s highly defensive broadside shot against forums and the very (often overly) enthusiastic debates we see here.
There are people here pursuing actual, provable, data (@Ledzep leaps to mind but there are many others) who will indeed be skeptics unless and until the assertion can be proven. Until proof is provided and validated, skepticism is the proper attitude, I think.
So, the question is, what could the CPS possibly affect that would impact accuracy. The one thing is potentially more consistent powder burn, which leads to more consistent pressures, which leads to lower ES/SD (which is measurable)?
I'm tempted to buy one along with one of the crappiest hand primers I can find just to test/compare and find out.
Some personalities are just so...abrasive.
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I would venture to say that theoretically, an inconsistent ignition might have some effect on precision, similar to seating depth.
But that’s getting way into bushes of capabilities.
I was waiting for him to claim he invented the question mark.
Here's a clue:
When EVERYONE is a bully, YOU are the fucking bully! People don't like you and want to fuck with you on line, not because they're skeptics or bad people, but because you bring it on yourself! By being such a pompous, know-it-all ass, and expecting adulation you invite ridicule. It's like you are screaming for it. I have to stop myself because I feel like your posts are damn near manipulative, like you're a masochist and enjoy it or something!
For someone who wears your faith on your sleeve it amazes me that you seem to have no humility or self awareness whatsoever. Do you brow beat people at your Bible Study if they disagree with your opinion? How's that working out for you? 'Bout the same?
I feel bad for you, and then you start typing and that feeling goes right away.
Didn't he rage-quit all of the popular forums and start his own?
The guy has "taken his ball and gone home" before from many shooting sites including this one. His own site only attracted 8-12 disciples. He will be back sure as herpes.
Not to be too argumentative...but to me the question is what is it that can we PROVE that the CPS, or any other precision primer depth seater, provides.
If the magnitude of any possible benefit is too small to separate from the "noise" of all of the other variables with possible impact precision, then it may as well not exist. Right? If we cannot detect it...within statistically valid data set...we may as well just ignore it.
This is where my admiration derives from for the purely data driven folks on the board.
And, IMO, debating this is valid and does not fall into the category of "let's just bust balls of a manf for the fuck of it" as alluded to in the video posted above.
Cheers
I can tell you exactly what benefit it has without debating anything accuracy related.
It'll save a shit ton of hand pain.
Plain and simple
Yes, Mike.....I think we understand that but in the numerous vids and posts touting the CPS, its impact on precision when shooting seems to be the asserted benefit justifying...at least in part...its high relative cost.
As far as just hand pain...yeah, I'm 69 and I get that...but there are other bench primers out there for substantially less money, right?
Anyway, not looking to get in an argument or hot debate over it.
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As you know there are a bunch of bench primer tools. Sadly most of them are either single feed or they just plain suck.
Or both.
IF, the CPS can aid in more accurate loads, unfortunately, most of the buyers will never be able to see the benefits because as said before, they don't shoot well enough.
Shooting steel, I say it's nice, it's pretty and yeah the hand benefit.
Not necessary. At all.
I'd like to see Bart or Lou test it out and give a full report.
I think that would give the potential buyer enough info to decide if it's right for them.
The only thing that is faster and more comfortable than the CPS in priming is a Dillon, and the CPS is infinitely more adjustable, and doesn't rely on feel and filing down parts if you want to seat deeper. It's a great unit, and I have one of the very early ones. I don't even doubt that, for some people, it can be beneficial for accuracy. I just 1) don't know that it can, and 2) find the idea that, in a world where people are ACTUALLY PERSECUTED, it is good business or personal practice to conflate questioning with persecution. Much as I enjoy it as a gaffe, it is very much in line with what bothers me about the overall approach.
That would have been a great idea from a business standpoint. It's somewhat common for businesses to have their product tested by a 3rd party as a way of demonstrating the products viability. That always has a big impact on potential buyers.
I don't think you are alone there.... persecution is a strong word for sure, and in my opinion misplaced in this situation. There are some pretty strong things said by some though, and I equally think those things are misplaced. Online forums lend themselves to that type of thing, and it's one of the many reasons I don't do Facebook. That said, there's a difference in challenging a statement and trying to tear someone apart personally. I guess there must be some stuff that I didn't see or hear and I also know there is some back story here, but I would just say this. It's far easier to criticize those that do, than to be the one who does.
It's past time for this thread to end imo.
The dictionary has the definition of expert in it.
‘The Death of Expertise”, both the article and book, are good reads.
‘The Death of Expertise”, both the article and book, are good reads.
After tuning my powder charge with the Saterllee, OCW, and Real Gunsmith method I followed up with a seating depth test. My ES went to shit so I had to retune the charge. After that I tuned for optimal primer depth for the next 100 rounds. After the proper primer seating depth was found I began to adjust my barrel tuner. Half way through barrel tuner tuning I ran out of components. Now what?
I mean he did just make a 21 minute video on youtube talking about how forums are dead.
Primers detonate, and ignite the the powder charge.
And more from the way back machine (2020) Credit goes to Mr. German Salazar for the wonderful photos.
And more from the way back machine (2020) Credit goes to Mr. German Salazar for the wonderful photos.
Primer Flash Test Photos
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you are clueless just like fenix. and have no logic.
orkan say that cps if far superior than everything invented to this date. i say that you dont need this tool to set records and I provide an evidence.
so who must prove their statement at your logic?
It was a 6.5 PRC load ladder test or something.
I didn't get to the point of it all but, there were a good few tid-bits which happened during the video. Stuff you wouldn't normally see unless you owned one kind of thing.
That is basically my take on Greg's attitude as well.
He's too quick to decide something is an actual thing, like his flame colour annealing or measuring to 1/10,000th".
This latest vid of him basically saying that anyone who disagrees with his assessments is a "professional Sceptic"
seems to be par for the course.
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Actually, your logic is terrible.
It would be the same as saying he didn’t use Berger bullets to set the record, so Berger must not be any good or worth it.
That people claiming bergers are somehow wrong.
Also, claiming something is superior is far different than saying you need to use it to win records.
I would like you to provide a screenshot of Orkan making any claims that you can’t shoot well, or that you need a CPS to set records.
He makes other claims, such as primer seating depth nodes and such. And that is very debatable. But what you are saying isn’t even the debate. It’s just some weird shit you decided to go with.
I’ll also take a minute to remind everyone you’re the guy who told one of the owners of ZCO where his optics are and are not manufactured. Keep up the good work. It’s great entertainment.
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This is basically the summation of 90% of load development in the last half century or more.
I thought I was done with this topic, but that video on the death of forums sounds like the world's biggest cry baby who made money off of the use of a forum! Ironic and so where's the logic Greg? You got sprayed by a giant can of Whoop Ass and you brought it upon yourself.
I have a CPS and am happy with it, but I've watched you do a video attacking a customer that wasn't happy and returned it. Instead of showing how to properly use it, for the benefit of all, you chose to humiliate. Time to grow up man. I had the same problem that that guy had, I went to another yt video that showed how to use the stop, and viola, it works like a champ.
So far as the death of forums, I think not. Thanks to your tantrums, I was able to learn a lot here on the Hide. Feniks made some helpful suggestions on reloading that helped me correct errors that I was making. He didn't attack you and he was very helpful in this topic.
Most vendors try to improve on short comings 'cause they want the business. Ball's in your court, but don't you think that there are enough people telling us who we should be listening to, or what we should be reading and viewing. Your rant sounds like obama telling us who we should get our news from.
I have a CPS and am happy with it, but I've watched you do a video attacking a customer that wasn't happy and returned it. Instead of showing how to properly use it, for the benefit of all, you chose to humiliate. Time to grow up man. I had the same problem that that guy had, I went to another yt video that showed how to use the stop, and viola, it works like a champ.
So far as the death of forums, I think not. Thanks to your tantrums, I was able to learn a lot here on the Hide. Feniks made some helpful suggestions on reloading that helped me correct errors that I was making. He didn't attack you and he was very helpful in this topic.
Most vendors try to improve on short comings 'cause they want the business. Ball's in your court, but don't you think that there are enough people telling us who we should be listening to, or what we should be reading and viewing. Your rant sounds like obama telling us who we should get our news from.
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Holy cow....that shows a HUGE difference in brisance. Really, surprisingly, huge.
Yeah, I remember that too...actually, so funny and bizarre its kind of hard to forget.
Those are probably the best pictures I’ve seen, but not new.
Similar was shown in reloading manuals long before the invention of the inter webs. I can’t recall if it was a Lyman, RCBS, or Speer manual. I’ll look for it next time I get back down to my big shop.
In older Speer manuals it used to have the the actual pressure of each primer made by CCI in a nice little table. Have to find that too.
I say all of that just to say that none of this is new.
You can have all the brisance and heat in the world, but only so much is going through the flash hole at once. There is so much more to ignition of the powder column. So many variables.
Does increased crush impact the force of primer detonating? More heat? Brisance? The bolt face creates the path of most resistance.
Just thoughts for today. Back to your regularly scheduled program.
Care to share the video? I've had the same problem.
The “death of the forums” statement Is simply another exhibition of the delusional egotism that he has.
“Without my genius and attention, they cease to exist.”
“Without my genius and attention, they cease to exist.”
Greg tried the same thing in the "Annealing Brass - Science vs Myths" thread.
The way he handled the challenges to the "facts" in his annealing video was surprising, to say the least.
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wrong again.
''he didn’t use Berger bullets to set the record'' -> my statement (same as cpl): ''you dont need bergers to set records.''
buy how you end up with: ''Berger must not be any good'' ?
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@orkan can tell us how he came on here back in the day to asking for advice on how to remove a stuck cleaning rod from a barrel.
This forum seemed pretty useful to him back then.
This forum seemed pretty useful to him back then.
On yt, F Class John has a video on how to set it up. Setting the stop is the key to getting consistent seating depth. I kept getting inconsistent seating depths and thought the cps was another piece of junk. It's not, and you will be able to set depths to within 0.001"
I like the safety angle of the cps, along with its' speed.
And that’s why I have one. I wouldn’t give it up either.
I think Greg was all wrong in his advertisement of the CPS
Sell it on the easily proven merits, speed, ease and safety.
Not on some voodoo that very very few could test, verify or capitalize on.
Most people don’t buy a V3\V4 or Prometheus because it’s going to make their loads a ton better, because they won’t.
But they absolutely won’t hurt the load and are incredibly fast.
Everyone will be able to get proven results on that.
Fast is good if your loading 50 or 500.
Sell it on the easily proven merits, speed, ease and safety.
Not on some voodoo that very very few could test, verify or capitalize on.
Most people don’t buy a V3\V4 or Prometheus because it’s going to make their loads a ton better, because they won’t.
But they absolutely won’t hurt the load and are incredibly fast.
Everyone will be able to get proven results on that.
Fast is good if your loading 50 or 500.
This is absolutely the perfect plan. The problem for Orkan is that doing it this way does not stroke his ego, only his bank account.
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