Is something going on in Ukraine?

[GreenGO Juan]

Seeing reports Russia hit more energy infrastructure in Kiev today.

Kyiv power station ‘seriously damaged’ in strike amid Russian bombing campaign

Energy infrastructure has been target of Kremlin’s latest attacks

www.independent.co.uk

May be a reply to the Strikes in Belgrade???

 

[Cardboard55]

Here are some photos of aircraft flying into Rzeszow (closest city to Ukraine in Poland.

First 3 pages are since the war started:

Photos from Rzeszow-Jasionka - EPRZ on JetPhotos

JetPhotos.com is the biggest database of aviation photographs with over 4 million screened photos online!

www.jetphotos.com

The camp where the 82nd was sent is I think about 20 Miles SE of there, some old resort close to the Ukr border. Notice the Army brass, diplomatic planes and AF1 flying in. That's where they all go to meet with Zelensky, I'd bet. With a few exceptions, I don't think any of the upper crust actually went to Kiev. All those 747's and C17's have brought a ton of stuff over there. Helos certainly didn't fly there from the US.

Here's another that just landed:

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live - aircraft flight history

globe.adsbexchange.com

And another coming in:

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live - aircraft flight history

globe.adsbexchange.com

It's like a big conveyor belt moving men and machine into place (or waypoint for them being transferred, officially or unofficially into Ukraine). It's been operating 24x7 for what, at least 8 months now?

Full map, as always, click the "U" in the upper right to see just .mil and unusual traffic:

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live - aircraft flight history

globe.adsbexchange.com

Leading up to WW2 we had a conveyor belt of mil equipment and other supplies going to England. Back then it was by boat instead of plane. We've been doing the same thing now and aren't even conscious of it.

The merchant marine losses were tremendous: https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/losses_year.html

Huh, just noticed I said "since the war started. There's a debate on when WW2 actually started. Pearl Harbor, Poland, Nanking... Pick one of many dates.

Guess we're in WW3 now, but just hasn't grown big enough to be "official" yet.

 

[Mr.BR]

Literally the 'The Dirty Dozen' , Russian convicts in frontline service in exchange for commuted sentences, attached to Wagner PMC

 

[Mr.BR]

Wanting to join EU since 988 ,

 

[steve podleski]

...

It's like a big conveyor belt moving men and machine into place (or waypoint for them being transferred, officially or unofficially into Ukraine). It's been operating 24x7 for what, at least 8 months now?
...

Guess we're in WW3 now, but just hasn't grown big enough to be "official" yet.

I wonder what the conveyor belt looked like in Haiphong during the late 60's or early 70' or Pyongyang during the early 50s. But back then it was the left whining and supporting our opponents.

 

[babyguppy]

Seeing reports Russia hit more energy infrastructure in Kiev today.

Kyiv power station ‘seriously damaged’ in strike amid Russian bombing campaign

Energy infrastructure has been target of Kremlin’s latest attacks

www.independent.co.uk

May be a reply to the Strikes in Belgrade???

We lose a transformer; it takes 6 months to get it repaired and delivered.
I wonder how they replace those big boys over there?
What about all the PCBs when they spill on the ground?

 

[GreenGO Juan]

We lose a transformer; it takes 6 months to get it repaired and delivered.
I wonder how they replace those big boys over there?
What about all the PCBs when they spill on the ground?

I don’t know specifics but am pretty sure power substation components are not an in stock items.

Months to years would be my guess.

Listening to the cheer crowd talk about how Ukraine is winning... no. Their country is getting fucked. Anyone cheering on further destruction over there is retard. Anyone not recognizing further escalation will cause further destruction has sever mental issues.

Neither side is winning, both are losing.

But You know Hunter Biden needed his crack and hooker money

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Plus where are the Green energy types?? Dont they know war is bad because of pollution... I mean hell what kind of fuel mileage does a tank get.

 

[babyguppy]

The allies stopped the axis by taking the fight to Germany, Italy and Japan.
as of now, Ukraine is just an area being shelled; like no man's land.
Russia really isn't feeling the effects of this war. No infrastructure loses or industrial base.
Like Afghanistan 1984 ish.

 

[232593]

Plus where are the Green energy types?? Dont they know war is bad because of pollution... I mean hell what kind of fuel mileage does a tank get.

I was wondering about that. If green energy is so great why is Western Europe shitting themselves about this pending winter energy crisis.

Hopefully Europeans learn their lesson and skin the greens alive like they used to in the dark ages when they pull their shit in the future.

 

[theLBC]

might be a bad sign

UPDATED SUNDAY, 11:13 AM EDT -- China Foreign Ministry Tells all citizens EVACUATE UKRAINE IMMEDIATELY

For the very first time since Russia began its

halturnerradioshow.com

 

[GreenGO Juan]

The allies stopped the axis by taking the fight to Germany, Italy and Japan.
as of now, Ukraine is just an area being shelled; like no man's land.
Russia really isn't feeling the effects of this war. No infrastructure loses or industrial base.
Like Afghanistan 1984 ish.

Two names. Napoleon and Hitler. Europe has played this game before.

Russia has lost its European gas market, pipeline hit, cities along the border have been hit, men, equipment, financial... but nothing near crippling for the country as a whole.

I was wondering about that. If green energy is so great why is Western Europe shitting themselves about this pending winter energy crisis.

Hopefully Europeans learn their lesson and skin the greens alive like they used to in the dark ages when they pull their shit in the future.

There are wide spread protests across Europe in nearly every country ... they are starting to react, people are quickly moving away from this Left/Green energy crap.

Their leaders literally sanctioned them into this.

 

[Cardboard55]

The same people that ran the Afghanistan withdrawal are running this current endeavor. Should we expect a different outcome?

 

[babyguppy]

might be a bad sign

UPDATED SUNDAY, 11:13 AM EDT -- China Foreign Ministry Tells all citizens EVACUATE UKRAINE IMMEDIATELY

For the very first time since Russia began its

halturnerradioshow.com

might be in preparation of the onslaught of 300,000 under fed troops armed with guns and Viagra.
another tidbit - Russia running low on missiles ??? maybe, but I suspect they still have a ton of artillery shells they're burning up from WWII and the Cold war.

Iran missile purchase lends credibility​

Yet new reports may indicate legitimacy to Reznikov's claims, as The Washington Post reported on Sunday that Russia is purchasing Iranian missiles.

Intelligence reports shared by officials allege that Russia will purchase the Iranian-made Fateh-110 and Zolfaghar short-range missiles, which could serve as replacements for the Iskander missiles

 

[Cardboard55]

might be in preparation of the onslaught of 300,000 under fed troops armed with guns and Viagra.
another tidbit - Russia running low on missiles ??? maybe, but I suspect they still have a ton of artillery shells they're burning up from WWII and the Cold war.

Iran missile purchase lends credibility​

Yet new reports may indicate legitimacy to Reznikov's claims, as The Washington Post reported on Sunday that Russia is purchasing Iranian missiles.

Intelligence reports shared by officials allege that Russia will purchase the Iranian-made Fateh-110 and Zolfaghar short-range missiles, which could serve as replacements for the Iskander missiles

Who financed those Iranian missiles I wonder...

Biden’s $90 Billion Bailout to Tehran

Rejoining the Iran deal could undo years of progress in the Middle East.

foreignpolicy.com

 

[khel]

Russia running low on missiles ???

according to mainstream media, they've been "running out" since march - lol

Russia running out of precision munitions in Ukraine war- Pentagon official

Russia is running out of precision guided munitions and it is more likely to rely on so-called dumb bombs and artillery, a senior Pentagon official said on Thursday.

www.reuters.com

Russia launched hypersonic missiles due to a low stockpile, sources say

The leading theory in Western assessments of the hypersonic missiles attack is that Russia's number of precision-guided munitions are dwindling fast.

www.politico.com

etc.

 

[lariat]

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[Darayavaus]

 

[Cardboard55]

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Sounds like the biggest pork project the EU, UK & US have ever seen. Destroy a country, kill all military age males, rebuild with unlimited funds (taking only a modest %, of course), repatriate the hawt refugee women and recreate the corruption capitol of the world, with everything paid for by starving peasants everywhere else

Not that I'm cynical...

 

[Cardboard55]

I should add that whoever owns or buys up all the (future primo) land in Ukraine now for pennies on the Euro, would stand to make a fortune in a rebuilt Ukraine. Particularly the Black Sea resorts areas, which is why I'm thinking they want Russia out of Crimea and everywhere else.

Think about it. Where else in Europe is land cheap and relatively unpopulated? (compared to all the Mediterranean countries) Not to mention all that farmland.

Would explain one of the reasons there is zero interest in peace negotiations, and if the place gets nuked? Makes the land all that cheaper. Buy it up and pass it down to heirs. Nagasaki and Hiroshima rebuilt .

 

[sharac]

I dont think its Lebensraum this time around. These are more like thrashing moves of a mortally wounded predator on its last seconds just looking for something to destroy before checking out. Western world is world of Satan and good people i fear have missed the time for fighting it - too little too late. Just imagine all the sick “new normals” of western societies and how many of those deprived and perverted ideas ring true to many. There are just too many people tolerating this mental disease and it has already consumed much of western spiritual worth (not that was much in the start) and society in general.

 

[Mr.BR]

I should add that whoever owns or buys up all the (future primo) land in Ukraine now for pennies on the Euro, would stand to make a fortune in a rebuilt Ukraine. Particularly the Black Sea resorts areas, which is why I'm thinking they want Russia out of Crimea and everywhere else.

Think about it. Where else in Europe is land cheap and relatively unpopulated? (compared to all the Mediterranean countries) Not to mention all that farmland.

Would explain one of the reasons there is zero interest in peace negotiations, and if the place gets nuked? Makes the land all that cheaper. Buy it up and pass it down to heirs. Nagasaki and Hiroshima rebuilt .

Relatively resource ritch and sparsely populated (except Crimea that had huge population growth since 2014). Ukraine's 1991 census had them at cca 52 mio , and declining ever since at cca 400+k per year,2020 census had them at 37mio , with start of the war 7+mio left the country, now 8mio get Russian citizenships in annexed lands (Donbass 3.6Mio were not counted in 2020 census) so at present hard numbers look close to 27mio cca 1/2 of the 1991 .
Much of the arable land was already bought by Chinese pre war and in return for western aid Zelensky had to pass a bunch of laws lowering obstacles for foreign farmland ownership, land development and minimizing worker protection to 0 and green transition on top of that, standard IMF protocols for striping county of its assets in return for loans , old world debt trap system.

Looking at the Ukrainians now living all over EU , huge chunk will not go back to Ukraine after the war only way they go back and the Ukraine census climbs past 30 million is if US and EU drop a trillion or so in development aid over next decade.But that is not going to happen, Brandon's 'As long as it takes' only goes for Raytheon and LM purchases and Raytheon doesn't do development aid.

*If Florida needed a shitload of MRAPS after the hurricane they would have gotten them in no time with bipartisan support, reconstruction aid ..........not so fast.

 

[Cardboard55]

Relatively resource ritch and sparsely populated (except Crimea that had huge population growth since 2014). Ukraine's 1991 census had them at cca 52 mio , and declining ever since at cca 400+k per year,2020 census had them at 37mio , with start of the war7+mio left the country, now 8mio get Russian citizenships in annexed lands (Donbass 3.6Mio of them were not counted in 2020 census) so at present numbers look like 1/2 of the 1991 .

Looking at the Ukrainians now living all over EU , huge chunk will not go back to Ukraine after the war, only way they go back and Ukraine census climbs past 30 million is if US and EU drop a trillion or so in development aid over next decade .But that is not going to happen, Raytheon doesn't do that.

Maybe it's a fool's errand to try to understand all the machinations of DC and the EU & UK powers that be. Apparently we're poking China again with restrictions on tech execs working for their semi firms:

https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/chinas-semiconductor-industry-rocked-by-us-export-controls/news-story/a5b46fb3cfd2651be23a549c38b3e2d6

It's like they sit around and ponder what boneheaded stunt they can come up with next. Is this all geared towards midterm elections or is everything just completely off the rails?

It's like they're begging for ww3, with nukes as a plus.

Is 5AM too early to start drinking?

 

[sharac]

Is 5AM too early to start drinking?

Its never too late just be sure you don't stop too early as head will start to hurt today instead of tomorrow.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Nuke War In Ukraine? No Big Deal, Says Biden Ally
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/10/16/nukes-in-ukraine-no-probs-said-biden-ally/

Left advocating going nuclear! Well that would be a good excuse to cancel elections!

Sirhr

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Is 5AM too early to start drinking?

Nothing wrong with SoCo in your coffee!

I think MacGregor has a decent grasp of this .

 

[GreenGO Juan]

More strikes in Kiev Monday morning(oct17). Seems the original strikes a week ago took out more of Ukraines air defenses, paving the way for drones. Maybe this why you heard reports of Zelensky begging for more air defense.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Another thing that ruffled my feathers the media keeps calling these suicide drone kamikaze drones. These are neither they’re basically low-speed cruise missiles.

for it to be suicide or a kamikaze require a pilot to be on board.

The use of hysterical language @ narrative.

 

[theLBC]

 

[Sako man]

Maybe it's a fool's errand to try to understand all the machinations of DC and the EU & UK powers that be. Apparently we're poking China again with restrictions on tech execs working for their semi firms:

https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/chinas-semiconductor-industry-rocked-by-us-export-controls/news-story/a5b46fb3cfd2651be23a549c38b3e2d6

It's like they sit around and ponder what boneheaded stunt they can come up with next. Is this all geared towards midterm elections or is everything just completely off the rails?

It's like they're begging for ww3, with nukes as a plus.

Is 5AM too early to start drinking?

Well, this is what our focus should have been, and maintaining a strong presence in Taiwan. But the idiots have blown their load on Ukraine, so they can maintain their money laundering scheme.

Long term tech supremacy, and Taiwan are much more important strategic goals. However Clinton and Obama both sunk that ship with NAFTA and H1B Visas. So our manufacturing left to China, and remaining Tech was stolen by Chinese spies. If there is one party that has really weakened the country it's been progressives.

 

[232593]

More strikes in Kiev Monday morning(oct17). Seems the original strikes a week ago took out more of Ukraines air defenses, paving the way for drones. Maybe this why you heard reports of Zelensky begging for more air defense.

Or maybe it set favorable conditions for a more robust bombing campaign? If Russia can suppress or degrade UK’s AD network they could start using bear, blackjack, and other bombers.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Or maybe it set favorable conditions for a more robust bombing campaign? If Russia can suppress or degrade UK’s AD network they could start using bear, blackjack, and other bombers.

Is it necessary for them to use intercontinental bombers to hit targets a few hundred KM away? I wonder how many small drones you could buy with just fuel cost alone

 

[brianf]

Or maybe it set favorable conditions for a more robust bombing campaign? If Russia can suppress or degrade UK’s AD network they could start using bear, blackjack, and other bombers.

russians finally figured it out

a military needs the cheapest stand off munitions possible because the interceptor is always X times more expensive

you need to bleed the AAA dry of weapons

drones that can carry a large enough payload are a perfect weapon as long as the defenders dont have a weapon to break data link or scramble signals.

im guessing we are sending over anti drone ECM as soon as we got some parts of the Iranian drones they are using

 

[lariat]

russians finally figured it out

a military needs the cheapest stand off munitions possible because the interceptor is always X times more expensive

you need to bleed the AAA dry of weapons

drones that can carry a large enough payload are a perfect weapon as long as the defenders dont have a weapon to break data link or scramble signals.

im guessing we are sending over anti drone ECM as soon as we got some parts of the Iranian drones they are using

Wait until the bombers aren't carrying munitions so much as they are deploying a shit ton of drones with no radio signal/data link since they are running on individual, pre-planned missions. Each application has its place.

 

[232593]

Is it necessary for them to use intercontinental bombers to hit targets a few hundred KM away? I wonder how many small drones you could buy with just fuel cost alone

Those bombers carry a lot of ordinance so it might be required for the effect they are trying to achieve, especially if the whole “running out of TBMs” thing turns out to be true.

We used similar bombers (B1sand B52s) to achieve tactical/operational level effects in the past so it stands to reason that the Russians may want to do the same.

 

[babyguppy]

Is it necessary for them to use intercontinental bombers to hit targets a few hundred KM away? I wonder how many small drones you could buy with just fuel cost alone

well, a b 52 can carry 70,000 lbs of bombs. so, there's that.
how many drones would it take to deliver 1 bomb run?

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Those bombers carry a lot of ordinance so it might be required for the effect they are trying to achieve, especially if the whole “running out of TBMs” thing turns out to be true.

We used similar bombers (B1sand B52s) to achieve tactical/operational level effects in the past so it stands to reason that the Russians may want to do the same.

I personally don’t believe Russia is running out of short range ballistic missiles. I believe its a financial cost/risk/effect decision, especially if it’s causing Ukraine to fire multiple missiles to counter.

A Shahed136 as an example cost about $20,000. Has long range over 1000km, accurate and around a 100lbs warhead.

No need to put a multi million dollar asset at Risk. Dont need a sledgehammer for a finishing nail.

But I hear what you are saying, no AD and Heavy bombers doing their thing would not be something I’d wanna be on the receiving end of.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

well, a b 52 can carry 70,000 lbs of bombs. so, there's that.
how many drones would it take to deliver 1 bomb run?

700@ $20,000 apiece= 14million in drone cost.

 

[brianf]

Wait until the bombers aren't carrying munitions so much as they are deploying a shit ton of drones with no radio signal/data link since they are running on individual, pre-planned missions. Each application has its place.

100%

been reading some military projects and plans etc and theyve been working on that for a good 15-20 years

really got a kick start with the small diameter bomb

ill try and find the link of the AI drone swarm that was tested a few years ago in the desert out west

it was almost spooky, the dropped hundreds and they all worked together and selected targets

 

[babyguppy]

700@ $20,000 apiece= 14million in drone cost.

14m sounds like a good deal, if you can hit 700 targets. The video of those seem like they move awful slow, like a lawnmower in the sky. You think some old 50cals with radar would take them out.

US Air Force F-22 Raptor Fires Record-High 28 Missiles
- cost for 28 missiles =
fired off the full payload, worth approximately $14 million

An Air Force F-22 Raptor unit just fired off a record number of air-to-air missiles

F-22s usually only carry eight missiles for air-to-air missiles. These fighter squadrons pushed the fighter jet far beyond that.

taskandpurpose.com

some of these older vehicles from the 80's could do the trick on the slow movers. Then you get into the, big enough to see, big enough to become a target

BOV-3 Self-propelled anti-aircraft vehicle​

edit - how about this old one from the 1960's ?

ZSU-23-4 `Shylka`​

 

[GreenGO Juan]

To put that into perspective the 136 drone has around 100 pound warhead cost around $20,000. The GPU 39 has a 200lbs warhead(depends on type), cost around $40,000.

And the small drones don’t put a multi million dollar asset at risk, ordinance cost and capability is similar.

 

[Mr.BR]

russians finally figured it out

a military needs the cheapest stand off munitions possible because the interceptor is always X times more expensive

you need to bleed the AAA dry of weapons

drones that can carry a large enough payload are a perfect weapon as long as the defenders dont have a weapon to break data link or scramble signals.

im guessing we are sending over anti drone ECM as soon as we got some parts of the Iranian drones they are using

Compared to cruise missiles and SAMs these things are cheap and although slow have the range to cover all of Ukraine. The question is just are these actually bought in Iran or have they localized the production In Russia (both Iranian and Israeli drones now manufactured under licence by the Russians ? ) , given the simplicity of design, i imagine these things can be churned out as fast as Chinese or Iranian engines for them can be sourced.


Meanwhile, Kiev called on Iran to immediately stop supplying UAVs and any other weapons to Russia.
This statement was made by the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry. According to them, otherwise Tehran will be held responsible.



But i expect Ukrainian Shaheds will be appearing soon enough, AAA will be all the rage on both sides.First pict of Ukrainan 'shahed' part

Shahed 136 aka Geran-2

Smaller Geran-1 aka Shahed 131

Ukraine conflict: Details of Iranian attack UAV released

The Armed Forces of Ukraine's Strategic Communications service has released a technical report on an Iranian Shahed-131 one-way attack unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) that...

www.janes.com

Supposedly 2400 of these drones on order . Iranian manufacturing facility

Kiev AAA in action

 

[LeftyJason]

100%

been reading some military projects and plans etc and theyve been working on that for a good 15-20 years

really got a kick start with the small diameter bomb

ill try and find the link of the AI drone swarm that was tested a few years ago in the desert out west

it was almost spooky, the dropped hundreds and they all worked together and selected targets

The darpa gremlins or a different one?

 

[babyguppy]

Compared to cruise missiles and SAMs these things are cheap and although slow have the range to cover all of Ukraine. The question is just are these actually bought in Iran or have they localized the production In Russia (both Iranian and Israeli drones now manufactured under licence by the Russians ? ) , given the simplicity of design, i imagine these things can be churned out as fast as Chinese or Iranian engines for them can be sourced.

But i expect Ukrainian Shaheds will be appearing soon enough, AAA will be all the rage on both sides.First pict of Ukrainan 'shahed' part

View attachment 7978434

Might be an Aspirin plant, better send a cruise missile, calling Bill C..

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Compared to cruise missiles and SAMs these things are cheap and although slow have the range to cover all of Ukraine. The question is just are these actually bought in Iran or have they localized the production In Russia (both Iranian and Israeli drones now manufactured under licence by the Russians ? ) , given the simplicity of design, i imagine these things can be churned out as fast as Chinese or Iranian engines for them can be sourced.

But i expect Ukrainian Shaheds will be appearing soon enough, AAA will be all the rage on both sides.First pict of Ukrainan 'shahed' part

View attachment 7978434


Shahed 136 aka Geran-2

Smaller Geran-1 aka Shahed 131

Ukraine conflict: Details of Iranian attack UAV released

The Armed Forces of Ukraine's Strategic Communications service has released a technical report on an Iranian Shahed-131 one-way attack unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) that...

www.janes.com

Supposedly 2400 of these drones on order . Iranian manufacturing facility
View attachment 7978433


Kiev AAA in action

Nothing more entertaining than a guy screaming Suka while wildly firing an AK-47 in the air

Also, they are aware that all those boolets are going to hit the ground at some point?

Little known fact nearly 20 or so people were killed in Hawaii during Pearl Harbor attack from rounds that came back down hit and civilians in the area.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Since the US Controls the GPS system... can't we just shut it off for certain parts of the planet?

Or are we saving that for later?

Because without a GPS system, these fancy pants drones become useless.

And also, every Prius driver and pilot under the age of 45 drives or flies into a river.

Just 'sayin.

Sirhr

 

[brianf]

The darpa gremlins or a different one?

cant find the original, but this was one of the original tests 5-6 years ago

pretty cool stuff

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Since the US Controls the GPS system... can't we just shut it off for certain parts of the planet?

Or are we saving that for later?

Because without a GPS system, these fancy pants drones become useless.

And also, every Prius driver and pilot under the age of 45 drives or flies into a river.

Just 'sayin.

Sirhr

GLONASS - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[babyguppy]

Since the US Controls the GPS system... can't we just shut it off for certain parts of the planet?

Or are we saving that for later?

Because without a GPS system, these fancy pants drones become useless.

And also, every Prius driver and pilot under the age of 45 drives or flies into a river.

Just 'sayin.

Sirhr

I read a while back, - when India was testing one of their GPS missiles, USA blinked the GPS system and the Indian missile missed its target.
I'm sure someone running the USA gps had a good laugh at that one.

 

[Mr.BR]

Nothing more entertaining than a guy screaming Suka while wildly firing an AK-47 in the air

Also, they are aware that all those boolets are going to hit the ground at some point?

Little known fact nearly 20 or so people were killed in Hawaii during Pearl Harbor attack from rounds that came back down hit and civilians in the area.

Imagine AAA that will be brought into Kiev , rednecks with some Vulcans from boneyards on skyscrapers like in Seul