carrier tilt

[teknikallysekure]

How big of a concern is carrier tilt?

I intend to build my lower, and purchase a POF upper. I have my heart set on the POF(they've sponsored local matches and I'm a fan of the company now), and the only concern I have is the carrier tilt I've read about.

Are these drop in anti-cant buffers a solution to the issue?

I intend to go for the 11.5 SBR upper, and will be running a can on it so I'm planning to purchase a heavy duty buffer anyways the extra step up to the anti-cant buffer isn't to bad.

What say you POF owners familiar piston op shooters?

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: carrier tilt

Also, if anyone happens to be familiar with other handguard setups that are POF-415 piston friendly I wouldn't at all mind the suggestions

Those predator rails are not gonna work for me I'm afraid.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: carrier tilt

Not sure what to tell you about the forearm. I like the rails they come with. Of course I use rubber or plastic rail-covers when not using a vertical grip.
As far as "Carrier tilt"... It's a NON-issue. I know there's a lot of Broo-Ha-Ha about it everywhere you turn but I can tell you I know many guys who have run tens of thousands of rounds thru Piston AR's and none have failed in any way as a result of Carrier Tilt. Both Full and Semi-auto. The carrier certainly can and usually will rub the bottom of the buffer tube because of the way the piston hits the top of the carrier. It WILL rub off the black finish and you can even feel it with your finger if you rub it. Point is, it will never rub enough to cause a failure and only rubs so-much before it stops completely. Long before it could create a problem. I could go on and on about this because I spent about a year testing and looking at different piston systems and solutions to "Carrier Tilt". Bottom line is there's no reason to find a solution because there's no problem.

Oh... One other thing. While Piston AR's do run cooler in the receiver and generally cleaner than DI, A suppressed SBR running Full-Auto WILL GET FILTHY! Piston or no Piston. FWIW

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: carrier tilt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure what to tell you about the forearm. I like the rails they come with. Of course I use rubber or plastic rail-covers when not using a vertical grip.
As far as "Carrier tilt"... It's a NON-issue. I know there's a lot of Broo-Ha-Ha about it everywhere you turn but I can tell you I know many guys who have run tens of thousands of rounds thru Piston AR's and none have failed in any way as a result of Carrier Tilt. Both Full and Semi-auto. The carrier certainly can and usually will rub the bottom of the buffer tube because of the way the piston hits the top of the carrier. It WILL rub off the black finish and you can even feel it with your finger if you rub it. Point is, it will never rub enough to cause a failure and only rubs so-much before it stops completely. Long before it could create a problem. I could go on and on about this because I spent about a year testing and looking at different piston systems and solutions to "Carrier Tilt". Bottom line is there's no reason to find a solution because there's no problem.

Oh... One other thing. While Piston AR's do run cooler in the receiver and generally cleaner than DI, A suppressed SBR running Full-Auto WILL GET FILTHY! Piston or no Piston. FWIW </div></div>

Thanks alot very informative. In that case then would you consider a semi auto sbr suppressed to run more reliably with just a heavy buffer or is that even necessary?

I hate to waste money solving non existant problems so I appreciate the info.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: carrier tilt

I like a Heavy Buffer regardless. It just "feels" better... It's hard to explain. But I like to have a selection of buffers to choose from.

 

[rescueswimmer]

Re: carrier tilt

POF Rail is proprietary and as far as I know there is not a rail that will fit over their piston.

some earlier piston setups had some carrier tilt issues but since then most mfg's have come up with modified carriers with ski's or whatever they call them know a days and various other things to reduce or eliminate carrier tilt. It is very overblown. I have 5000 rounds through a Osprey 416 piston kit and have no issues what so ever.

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: carrier tilt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rescueswimmer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">POF Rail is proprietary and as far as I know there is not a rail that will fit over their piston.

some earlier piston setups had some carrier tilt issues but since then most mfg's have come up with modified carriers with ski's or whatever they call them know a days and various other things to reduce or eliminate carrier tilt. It is very overblown. I have 5000 rounds through a Osprey 416 piston kit and have no issues what so ever. </div></div>

I'm surprised rail manufacturers haven't jumped on this.

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: carrier tilt

we at POF, have helped eliminate carrier tilt in our new buffer tube design. I'm not very good at explaining how it works, but...... we extended the end of the buffer tube that holds onto the buffer retaining pin and spring, which also eliminates any catastrophic failure if this pin breaks, the whole pin is held down by our new buffer tube design. The bolt carrier also rides on the buffer tube which is extended slightly to eliminate that carrier tilt.

Here is a link to it:
http://www.pof-usa.com/images/buffertube1.jpg

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: carrier tilt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, if anyone happens to be familiar with other handguard setups that are POF-415 piston friendly I wouldn't at all mind the suggestions

Those predator rails are not gonna work for me I'm afraid. </div></div>

This:

With one of these:

POF-415-16-BP upper with a Daniel Defense Omega piston rail......

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: carrier tilt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, if anyone happens to be familiar with other handguard setups that are POF-415 piston friendly I wouldn't at all mind the suggestions

Those predator rails are not gonna work for me I'm afraid. </div></div>

This:

With one of these:

POF-415-16-BP upper with a Daniel Defense Omega piston rail...... </div></div>

Perfect thank you very much!

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: carrier tilt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we at POF, have helped eliminate carrier tilt in our new buffer tube design. I'm not very good at explaining how it works, but...... we extended the end of the buffer tube that holds onto the buffer retaining pin and spring, which also eliminates any catastrophic failure if this pin breaks, the whole pin is held down by our new buffer tube design. The bolt carrier also rides on the buffer tube which is extended slightly to eliminate that carrier tilt.

Here is a link to it:
http://www.pof-usa.com/images/buffertube1.jpg </div></div>

I'll PM you a little later about this Scott I'm hoping to pick this upper up from you actually. I have to do a little creative fund management before hand though thanks for answering this question. Is it possible to buy this upper seperate from a lower?

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: carrier tilt

yes sir, whenever you get a chance give me a call.

 

[NOMAD]

Re: carrier tilt

I have 6 POF rifles and every one of them run FLAWLESS!!! I have had zero issues. I not only use them throughout the week at work showing them to numerous people but use them in all my 3 gun matches and some in precision matches and I am very happy with the reliability, accuracy, and durability.

Buy with confidence!!

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: carrier tilt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we at POF, have helped eliminate carrier tilt in our new buffer tube design. I'm not very good at explaining how it works, but...... we extended the end of the buffer tube that holds onto the buffer retaining pin and spring, which also eliminates any catastrophic failure if this pin breaks, the whole pin is held down by our new buffer tube design. The bolt carrier also rides on the buffer tube which is extended slightly to eliminate that carrier tilt.

Here is a link to it:
http://www.pof-usa.com/images/buffertube1.jpg </div></div>
Funny, here's a picture of a modification I made to the buffer tube on my POF and posted on AR15.com long before POF introduced their "Improved Buffer Tube". I think I may have even posted picture on POF's "Industry" page about it asking for opinions on whether it would help. It was a crude "first attempt" but basically it's the same modification. The concept was to have the Buffer tube extend under the rear of the carrier. That way, if it was already resting on the tube there would be less chance for damage. Damn!... Wish I had patented it now!

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: carrier tilt

I also had an idea for a Buffer that I thought was great but someone else beat me to that one. Not exactly the same but close enough. My idea was to machine a buffer that had a (for lack of a better term) half of a ball protruding from the center of the face that was the same diameter as the hole in the back of the Carrier. When you close the upper and lower together the ball would go into the hole. Thus preventing the carrier from being able to move downward. The shape being rounded would prevent it from hindering dis-assembly of the firearm.

To me, the only flaw in that design was that it merely transferred the energy to the buffer. So that the buffer itself would begin to scrape the tube instead of the carrier doing it. Not sure if that would be any better.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: carrier tilt

I remember years ago (like fifteen-twenty) mentioning to my ex-wife how cool it would be if I could put my "I Can't Believe Its Not Butter" in a squirt bottle and spray it on my toast instead if having to spread it with a knife........
Oneshotonekill, perhaps you should have drawn it up, sourced it and manufactured it. I can guarantee however you aren;t the only person that suffers from "couldawouldashoulda syndrome"

POF is not the only manufacturer that has an enhanced buffer tube, but the extension and a couple other features makes ours my favorite, and our retail price is currently the most favorable too......

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: carrier tilt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember years ago (like fifteen-twenty) mentioning to my ex-wife how cool it would be if I could put my "I Can't Believe Its Not Butter" in a squirt bottle and spray it on my toast instead if having to spread it with a knife........
Oneshotonekill, perhaps you should have drawn it up, sourced it and manufactured it. I can guarantee however you aren;t the only person that suffers from "couldawouldashoulda syndrome"

POF is not the only manufacturer that has an enhanced buffer tube, but the extension and a couple other features makes ours my favorite, and our retail price is currently the most favorable too...... </div></div>

No offense intended... I don't have the resources or knowledge to actually go through all that. I just like to think that maybe in some small way my line of thinking helped someone who does have the resources and knowledge develop and actually produce something helpful. The whole reason I posted that on arfcom to begin with was just to help. I'm not trying to claim credit for your product. Just to pat myself on the back and say: "Hey, that must have been a good idea afterall."

I know my first post came across as provoking... I'm sorry about that.

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: carrier tilt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember years ago (like fifteen-twenty) mentioning to my ex-wife how cool it would be if I could put my "I Can't Believe Its Not Butter" in a squirt bottle and spray it on my toast instead if having to spread it with a knife........
Oneshotonekill, perhaps you should have drawn it up, sourced it and manufactured it. I can guarantee however you aren;t the only person that suffers from "couldawouldashoulda syndrome"

POF is not the only manufacturer that has an enhanced buffer tube, but the extension and a couple other features makes ours my favorite, and our retail price is currently the most favorable too...... </div></div>

No offense intended... I don't have the resources or knowledge to actually go through all that. I just like to think that maybe in some small way my line of thinking helped someone who does have the resources and knowledge develop and actually produce something helpful. The whole reason I posted that on arfcom to begin with was just to help. I'm not trying to claim credit for your product. Just to pat myself on the back and say: "Hey, that must have been a good idea afterall."

I know my first post came across as provoking... I'm sorry about that. </div></div>

I think it's safe to say that even if someone else independantly thought it up and implemented it you can rest safely upon your own laurels knowing that you had an idea that's good enough a company implemented it into their rifle design to solve a problem.

Pretty cool no matter which way you look at it.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: carrier tilt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I think it's safe to say that even if someone else independantly thought it up and implemented it you can rest safely upon your own laurels knowing that you had an idea that's good enough a company implemented it into their rifle design to solve a problem.

Pretty cool no matter which way you look at it. </div></div>

Si bueno esse!

 

[paulo_santos]

Re: carrier tilt

Here's what I did to my LMT: It is under the Fixes section.

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2382-LMT-Piston-Review.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: carrier tilt

Carrier tilt has more issues than just marking the buffer tube up.

Keep in mind the other fatal flaw of piston systems in a 8 lug bolt is that in a DI system the gas presurizes the bolt against the barrel extension during intitial carrier travel for unlocking, thus relieving some of the stresses on the bolt lugs.

Piston Systems just smash the carrier to the rear, and pull the bolt out that way.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: carrier tilt

Well... Not exactly. If you're familiar with how an AR works (That's a joke... I know who you are) then you know that as the BCG begins to move back, whether by gas or piston, it's the cam pin that rotates the bolt and unlocks the bolt lugs. There is no appreciable "extra" stress on the lugs in a piston AR. I don't buy the whole " gas pressure relieves the stress by holding the bolt forward" argument. The difference in the physics doesn't add up to me.
I've read all of the information I could find on this and know what you're saying but I don't believe there are any cases of bolt lugs failing any more frequently on a piston AR. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: carrier tilt

Seems like the posts I read from you Kevin lately are about finding the flaws only in the piston system.
I know your a smart guy, you wouldn't be working where you do if you weren't, but I don't believe there are any carrier tilt problems related to only piston guns.

 

[paulo_santos]

Re: carrier tilt

The Piston AR has evolved from when it came out. A simple POF buffer with the extended lip and an AA bolt spring that costs $5 takes care of the bolt thrust.