I just think about all that hot air, as you breath, and the sweat. Moving with that on, in 90+ degrees... All the sweat dripping in your eyes.
uggggg
- Thread starter Awag1000
- Start date
I just think about all that hot air, as you breath, and the sweat. Moving with that on, in 90+ degrees... All the sweat dripping in your eyes.
uggggg
Just for giggles;
7000 grains per lb
175 gr 308 projectile (0.025 lbs)
2800 fps
160 lb human at rest
M1V1(initial) + M2V2(initial) = M1V1(final) + M2V2(final)
(strictly speaking, lbs are a unit of force, not mass, but close enough for this crowd)
Human at rest makes M2V2(initial) equal 0. Let's just assume that the final velocity of the projectile is also 0, so M1V1(final) = 0.
That leaves us with M1V1(initial) = M2V2(final)
(2800)*(0.025)/(160) = final velocity of human impacted by bullet in an elastic collision = 0.44 fps, assuming that human had now way to arrest his/her movement and in a gravity-free environment. Knock down power is bunk...
Back to your regularly scheduled argument...
7000 grains per lb
175 gr 308 projectile (0.025 lbs)
2800 fps
160 lb human at rest
M1V1(initial) + M2V2(initial) = M1V1(final) + M2V2(final)
(strictly speaking, lbs are a unit of force, not mass, but close enough for this crowd)
Human at rest makes M2V2(initial) equal 0. Let's just assume that the final velocity of the projectile is also 0, so M1V1(final) = 0.
That leaves us with M1V1(initial) = M2V2(final)
(2800)*(0.025)/(160) = final velocity of human impacted by bullet in an elastic collision = 0.44 fps, assuming that human had now way to arrest his/her movement and in a gravity-free environment. Knock down power is bunk...
Back to your regularly scheduled argument...
I'm pretty familiar with that here in Texas...
You have to hope you need to wear your vest and helmet and everything else in the dead of winter because in the middle of summer, especially outside...
The most correct equation for this discussion is that of an Impulse, because the Time aspect of the energy transfer is what matters. I have no idea what that T number is to use in an equation. I'm sure there's enough LiveLeak or instagram videos out there of dudes getting shot to compare. I've seen early body armor tests of dudes shooting FAL's into guys chest armor at point blank and they seem to stand there just fine.
Hopefully never, there’s plenty of good reasons for the law abiding to be wearing armor (especially 3a concealable)
For me there’s only one. I am likely to get shot at….
Hence you will never see me wearing it while society still functions. Now, if gas hits 10$…
Hence you will never see me wearing it while society still functions. Now, if gas hits 10$…
My only concern about using a vest is "TIME". Let's face it, we are more likely to deal with a break-in, than entering full combat with a mob in the street.
Assuming I wake up at the first kick on my steel doors, they will likely be in by the third kick, as the door frame fails. This gives a very narrow time window to respond. Realistically, I can get a gun, and a couple magazines quickly, but if I add the time to put a competent vest on (correctly so it actually protects as advertised), I have exceeded my time window to respond. I am not paranoid enough to sleep with a vest on.
And for the Nay Sayers, yes, I deployed and wore a vest every day in a combat zone. I know how long it takes to put on. A tool, which cannot be reasonably used, is not useful.
Now, if the intent is to be a "street rambo" where you have time to plan and prepare... then a vest makes more sense. But then, do remember the Press often uses the presence of body armor as an "indicator" a person was a "violent gun nut". You can almost hear the breathless pundit saying: Not only did he have X "assault weapons", but he had XXX rounds of ammunition. He also had Level Y body armor as well (with the sub text... he was preparing for a serious crime/siege).
Why does "how they pundits describe you" matter? That ties directly to how expensive your legal defense will be. Let us face it, you are just as likely these days to have to pay for legal defense, even if your shooting was totally above board. This is especially true if the person you shoot turns out to be "a protected group".
But then, this group is the sniper's hide. If you are dealing with a large group (away from your home), I would expect most of you to take advantage of your developed marksmanship skills, and not be in the big middle of things. I have seen the daily statistics out of the major cities.. they typically read like "27 people shot this weekend in Chicago, with 4 deaths". Marksmanship appears to be a low priority for much of the mob-folks.
Assuming I wake up at the first kick on my steel doors, they will likely be in by the third kick, as the door frame fails. This gives a very narrow time window to respond. Realistically, I can get a gun, and a couple magazines quickly, but if I add the time to put a competent vest on (correctly so it actually protects as advertised), I have exceeded my time window to respond. I am not paranoid enough to sleep with a vest on.
And for the Nay Sayers, yes, I deployed and wore a vest every day in a combat zone. I know how long it takes to put on. A tool, which cannot be reasonably used, is not useful.
Now, if the intent is to be a "street rambo" where you have time to plan and prepare... then a vest makes more sense. But then, do remember the Press often uses the presence of body armor as an "indicator" a person was a "violent gun nut". You can almost hear the breathless pundit saying: Not only did he have X "assault weapons", but he had XXX rounds of ammunition. He also had Level Y body armor as well (with the sub text... he was preparing for a serious crime/siege).
Why does "how they pundits describe you" matter? That ties directly to how expensive your legal defense will be. Let us face it, you are just as likely these days to have to pay for legal defense, even if your shooting was totally above board. This is especially true if the person you shoot turns out to be "a protected group".
But then, this group is the sniper's hide. If you are dealing with a large group (away from your home), I would expect most of you to take advantage of your developed marksmanship skills, and not be in the big middle of things. I have seen the daily statistics out of the major cities.. they typically read like "27 people shot this weekend in Chicago, with 4 deaths". Marksmanship appears to be a low priority for much of the mob-folks.
Even an anemic .45 LC will knock a sodbuster right off his feet. Ain't you never seen Shane?
It's my (probably mis-informed) opinion - that the need for a vest will arise after the food riots begin and the previously government-fed looters begin a sweep of the city to take what they want. Then you'll have to protect your own food supplies or go hungry or foraging for yourself. You'll probably sleep in your vest again.
A properly set up modern vest takes about 2 seconds to put on, correctly adjusted beforehand. Both concealable and plate carriers have moved to a system where the Velcro is just used for adjustment, and don/doff is done with a faster clip mechanism.
Properly prepared, you should have plenty of time to grab both and respond.
Properly prepared, you should have plenty of time to grab both and respond.
Agreed on exercising rights.
It has always amazed me that we can just buy NV and such off the shelf but not suppressors.
Off on a tangent here but I would really like to see an end to the rule by bureaucracy or administration.
We are still allowed to buy recreational explosives - but not a muffler unless you agree to their terms and pay their tax.
Buy yourself time. I’m having these installed on all my doors as well as locking hinges.
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We don’t sell doors. In 2004, we created the world’s most effective door security & repair solutions. In other words, we make your existing doors more secure.
"Weapons and armor are like a parachute. Rarely will you ever need one, but when you do, nothing else will do."
Dated a gal who had a recent breakup. One night she decided she wanted kielbasa, and I didn't have any "casing" on me. She found a few sealed slim fits from the ex. Had to tell her they weren't going to fit. When fit is a factor- have what you need- or go dangerous into the fray.
That’s the premise of door armor, but they also reinforce all the weak points where the screws or locks set. It’s like “level III” armor for your house. You can always break in through a window but if you’ve give me enough time to wake up and arm that’s likely where you’ll die.
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Proficiency is the word missing from this statement
You could also add a security door in the doorframe of your bedroom door and that should give you plenty of extra time. granted, not much of a plan if there are other family members around the house but if it's just you and/or your significant other, most door kickers are not going to expect another security door to get into the master bedroom.
If someone is coming into your house they very well may have the drop. I’m not paranoid anymore, even if I am a light sleeper. Pistol or carbine in hand is 99% of it. I’m not fucking with a plate carrier, period. That’s for the aftermath.
You realize you are talking to a guy who has over 2000 hours wearing body armor under his belt. Yes, there are things you can do to reduce the "flopping it over your head time", but proper fit and cinching makes a huge difference in effectiveness. Depending on the make of the body armor, getting proper fitment takes more time than I would wish. There are people who were wearing body armor loosely, and the bullet did not penetrate the Kevlar, but it did shove a loop of "kevlar wrapped lead" into their body. If your body armor is not firmly against the skin, it is less effective (unless you are lucky enough that the round hits a nice broad trauma plate).
This right here.
Let's just say if you take your soft body armour panel and have it just hanging where it can freely swing and shoot it, you'll notice the results are a lot different than if you have it firmly up against a big clay block for example.
A lot of the combat course (especially cqb) require armor for the course
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Sorry, thought we were talking about getting it on in an emergency or quick. It’s better to have some than none, but agree with proper fit and fasten for best results.
I put my first body armor on 23 years ago, so I feel your 2000 hours
as said before, most modern setups don’t require refitting every time you take them on and off. Look up the ‘Tubes’ cummerbunds available for most plate carriers now as an example. you use the velcro to set the fit initially, then the carrier comes off by undoing the Tubes catch and sliding it apart, creating a quick release/quick don point. at that juncture you can either go for fixed shoulders or use a similar clip system.
These solutions were created very specifically to erase the “fix the fit every time” issue.
Technology
www.first-spear.com as said before, most modern setups don’t require refitting every time you take them on and off. Look up the ‘Tubes’ cummerbunds available for most plate carriers now as an example. you use the velcro to set the fit initially, then the carrier comes off by undoing the Tubes catch and sliding it apart, creating a quick release/quick don point. at that juncture you can either go for fixed shoulders or use a similar clip system.
These solutions were created very specifically to erase the “fix the fit every time” issue.
Technology
True BUT if your running side armor you will lack the overlap on most cummerbund setups. They are certainly quicker but you give up some protection by adding them to a system that allows the side armor to underlay front and back. You also have to watch the placed setup so the pulls don’t snag but they are a nice setup. Especially for those of us who run a minimal PC with no emergency doffing type system available.
I still couldn’t get that shot in at 2am coming out of sound sleep.
Pretty sure there’s a scenario it doesn’t matter what you are recognized to be (or not be). If I’ve learned anything from the Ukraine thing it’s that sometimes a piece of colored tape can be the difference between being shot or let walk. Used to think that was only in paintball / airsoft
I live in a great area of the country. In the south, not in a larger city. Very affluent in most areas here.
Never felt like I needed any armor until they were deploying tear gas a few miles from my house during all the riot idiocy.
I’d rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. There is no “better area” that’s safe and immune.
Never felt like I needed any armor until they were deploying tear gas a few miles from my house during all the riot idiocy.
I’d rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. There is no “better area” that’s safe and immune.
After Uvalde, they might just be coming after body armor.
I'm out here in California. Greasy Gavin and his cronies introduced legislation banning the purchase of body armor. I never considered buying until one of the chaps at my gun shop told me about the legislation. I was disturbed...and it's like, well if they are gonna take it away, I need to buy it before they do the ban. Its rough out here...the state capitol goons just keep putting up road block after road block, constitution and lawsuits be damned. Just the principle and logic they throw out are insane.
I was here during the last big earthquake in 89. I was in college, and I remember eating cold cuts in the cafeteria to candles for at least a couple of days, if not more due to the power being out. Looking at the state of homelessness, violent criminals, mentally ill people on the loose, and opportunistic thugs, if such an event happened again, with no power for days, I would fully expect an Escape from NY type environment. There is violent crime such as random attacks, car jackings, home invasions, armed robberies, etc every day on the news...that would be off the charts during a disaster. Trying to get gas for your car or visiting a store would be death defying. Since CCW is banned in my area, during SHTF disaster, I'd be doing constitutional carry, and packing my AR Pistol (also questionable to have in my state...a big grey area), and would be crying for some body armor...so you know what I will be doing research on and buying shortly.
I was looking at a JPC 2.0 and possibly RMA Armament IIIa+(model 1003) to keep costs down (I know, I know, it won't stop AR green tip ammo, but if I am facing thugs armed with that, the S has really hit the fan. I have plenty of M855 to fight back lol. Any feedback on that possible set up? I know if I step up to better & lighter plates, the prices go up dramatically.
I was here during the last big earthquake in 89. I was in college, and I remember eating cold cuts in the cafeteria to candles for at least a couple of days, if not more due to the power being out. Looking at the state of homelessness, violent criminals, mentally ill people on the loose, and opportunistic thugs, if such an event happened again, with no power for days, I would fully expect an Escape from NY type environment. There is violent crime such as random attacks, car jackings, home invasions, armed robberies, etc every day on the news...that would be off the charts during a disaster. Trying to get gas for your car or visiting a store would be death defying. Since CCW is banned in my area, during SHTF disaster, I'd be doing constitutional carry, and packing my AR Pistol (also questionable to have in my state...a big grey area), and would be crying for some body armor...so you know what I will be doing research on and buying shortly.
I was looking at a JPC 2.0 and possibly RMA Armament IIIa+(model 1003) to keep costs down (I know, I know, it won't stop AR green tip ammo, but if I am facing thugs armed with that, the S has really hit the fan. I have plenty of M855 to fight back lol. Any feedback on that possible set up? I know if I step up to better & lighter plates, the prices go up dramatically.
Grey Ghost Gear nylon minimalist is awesome, often on sale for under $100, I've owned the JPC 1.0 and the minimalist is more than comparable for non-airplane jumping duty.
The weight of III+ and IV armor is a lot if you're not used to it. Only you can determine what threats you anticipate, but it's about probably, not possible. I think the weight/price of the plates you mentioned are the sweet spot, but green tip would be an issue. Bear in mind you're not getting head to toe coverage, just of the vitals. How many pounds is that worth to you? I know I am slower and struggle with heavier plates, even a few pounds difference is huge at the end of 10 hours, and I'm 240#.
It's not the cost savings that important with those plates over III+ or IV, it's the weight savings.
IMO, most houses/dwelling have almost NO actual cover. So regardless of what armor you choose to use or not use... it's really important to make the first hits as the scalded dog will have no cover to hide behind.
Either way, get something. Soft armor allows for covert usage too (somewhat). I'd go IIa over IIIa as it's thinner and easier for concealment. skip II altogether.
No for a couple of reasons:
1) If you’ve ever worn it the weight will gas you in short order unless you train with it constantly.
2) it’s uncomfortable plus awkward and unless you train with it constantly your shooting accuracy will go straight down the tubes becoming a liability.
I remember the military came out with a report a few years ago. It basically stated armor was more of a liability than a benefit for the reasons above, unless the engagement was short in duration and distance or there was sustained incoming fire. For me it’s like a motorcycle helmet, it’s a pain in the ass and hot and uncomfortable, so I don’t wear one, someday I might regret it but until then I enjoy the rides allot more, besides I have to die someday.
1) If you’ve ever worn it the weight will gas you in short order unless you train with it constantly.
2) it’s uncomfortable plus awkward and unless you train with it constantly your shooting accuracy will go straight down the tubes becoming a liability.
I remember the military came out with a report a few years ago. It basically stated armor was more of a liability than a benefit for the reasons above, unless the engagement was short in duration and distance or there was sustained incoming fire. For me it’s like a motorcycle helmet, it’s a pain in the ass and hot and uncomfortable, so I don’t wear one, someday I might regret it but until then I enjoy the rides allot more, besides I have to die someday.
+1 on the specificity of when armor is useful & tiring
-1 on the helmet, the discomfort is minimal compared to the consequences of going down without one (speaking from experience)
I get it, kissed the payment a few times luckily my head didn’t hit anything, just a personal choice, love riding without one, I do make my son wear one when he rides with me, so I do see the value. After riding 35 years I guess I’m just set in my ways, I do have several helmets hanging and protecting my garage wall though.
We all love riding bare... it may not be much, but like a rifle plate, it protects vital stuff. Glad you have been lucky, praying it keeps up for another 35 years.
Just to be real, I work in the ICU. Motorcycle accident victims provide us a steady stream of transplant donors. There are two sides to this. Someone died to provide a chance at life for someone else. Maybe by riding without a helmet, you can think well, "if things ever go wrong, on the positive side, I have a chance to provide good..." lol. On the other side of the coin, since I'm in California, probably most, if not all, of those donors were wearing helmets. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.... sorry for the gallows humor, but we need it to survive in a lot of jobs that see gruesome situations on a daily basis (ED, critical care, LEOs, Fire, EMS, tow truck drivers, county morgue, etc.)
You can always just be a big guy and then no body armor in the world will fit you.
I think it’s overrated…
Cover/concealment using terrain > armor
Prone > standing
I have been in multiple firefights and I have witnessed 1 person hit in the plate majority are limb abdominal. Face. Hits.
heard/close account of another shot 6 times to plate point blank at Traffic control point AK at close range… he got back up and killed the entire car with his M4 BSM with V recipient.
Now obviously that was mostly undertrained shooters with an iron AK with or without aiming…. Who’s to say.
Most of the combatants I have seen dead were hit center mass( abdominal wounds).
Body armor/soft armor really saved lives with regards to IEDs/explosives…
I would venture tourniquets on limbs and stopping majors bleeds saved far more lives than plates stopped lethal hits.
Close range it’s more intuitive to shoot chest. That’s the only time I would say it’s necessary…. But you should be avoiding those situations to begin With
Come to the big parade situation. 9/10 guys will be running optics…. All of which would/should assume. Everyone else is wearing armor… and thus I am Shooting for pelvic girdle. And I’ll finish it once they are on the ground….
I’m not saying it doesn’t have any place… but. Utilizing cover.. IMTing and being mobile beats immobility and restrictions it can cause.
Additionally I have seen the fitness level of most of the guys pounding their chest about body armor…. Them in their gear. With water and ammo. They won’t make it to the fight…
Cover/concealment using terrain > armor
Prone > standing
I have been in multiple firefights and I have witnessed 1 person hit in the plate majority are limb abdominal. Face. Hits.
heard/close account of another shot 6 times to plate point blank at Traffic control point AK at close range… he got back up and killed the entire car with his M4 BSM with V recipient.
Now obviously that was mostly undertrained shooters with an iron AK with or without aiming…. Who’s to say.
Most of the combatants I have seen dead were hit center mass( abdominal wounds).
Body armor/soft armor really saved lives with regards to IEDs/explosives…
I would venture tourniquets on limbs and stopping majors bleeds saved far more lives than plates stopped lethal hits.
Close range it’s more intuitive to shoot chest. That’s the only time I would say it’s necessary…. But you should be avoiding those situations to begin With
Come to the big parade situation. 9/10 guys will be running optics…. All of which would/should assume. Everyone else is wearing armor… and thus I am Shooting for pelvic girdle. And I’ll finish it once they are on the ground….
I’m not saying it doesn’t have any place… but. Utilizing cover.. IMTing and being mobile beats immobility and restrictions it can cause.
Additionally I have seen the fitness level of most of the guys pounding their chest about body armor…. Them in their gear. With water and ammo. They won’t make it to the fight…
Just a reminder that indoors, there's rarely any cover.
That’s why I said indoors/CQB is the only time I find it to be necessary…. And even then should be avoided…. Going prone in a room or hallway is rarely advantageous
Mandatory? Probably not. But I'd second the comments comparing it to fire alarms, fire extinguishers, seat belts, and any other safety type device. Ideally it'll collect dust for 10-15 years. But if something crazy dud go down (power grid off for days, more peaceful riots, etc) having an extra amount of safety gear would be good. Also, big picture, every now and then they're mentioned as something to ban. So if more people have them it's normalized and ideally grandfathered.
Postage stamp over your heart doesn’t help?
I’m starting to research what plate carrier to get and plates to go with it.
The thing about it is that plates are meant to protect your cardiac box where the vast majority of guaranteed lethal wounds will occur.
Even if folks are running optics, because many people don't train, just like the guys with the AK, they will default to center mass shooting when the adrenaline hits and conscious controlled thought goes out the window.
The other issue for some folks is that they live in suburbia, not out in the boonies where there is a lot more vegetation, so while you can conceal and cover to an extent, it helps protect those areas that are exposed moving between spaces.
Another thing to think about is security when dealing with other people. it allows you to engage with them in a controlled manner (window, etc) while keeping the majority of your exposed area safe from a potential attack. Exactly like your security guy with the M4
