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I blew up my rifle!

The answer is no. "Far enough forward" yes. Completely, no. I am holding in my hand a brand new Radian BCG that has never been installed or fired. If you hold the firing pin in and push on the bolt, there is a slight amount of play that makes out of battery most definitely possible. It's not a matter of 'in spec'.

In general, what you said is correct. In concept. In reality on almost every BCG there will be a small, very small area where this is possible. Take any one of yours and test it yourself.

Another way to test is to push the bolt all the way in. Then push on the firing pin. There will be a small amount of space...a mm or two where the bolt moves. That little gray area is what makes out of battery possible when using bad brass for example.
This is not correct. An AR bolt MUST achieve full forward movement in order to begin its rotation - no rotation can occur until it is fully seated beyond the lugs of the barrel extension. An AR bolt does not begin rotation until it is past the barrel extension, it is impossible for it to rotate while still partially engaged in the barrel extension lugs. It IS possible that the bolt could not complete its rotation, however the bolt itself would be fully seated at-depth before any rotation has occurred. The firing pin cannot be exposed until the bolt is almost fully rotated closed, which means that even if you experience an early detonation in an AR, the bolt would have been so close to fully closed that it shouldn’t matter. If this was an “out of battery” (or… early?) detonation in an AR the bolt lugs would have been sheared.

Now, if a foreign object ignited the primer, you could have OOB detonation. Like if you manually dropped a loaded round into the chamber and then dropped the bolt to feed one from a magazine, you could punch the top of the bullet from the magazine into the already chambered bullets primer. That’s almost the only way to OOB an AR.
 
Could it be that if the bullet had a flattened portion in one spot, as shown in the pictures, could it have caused it to expand slightly in another part of the bullet and that may have caused a pressure spike?
 
To answer several comments, my brass is a mixed bunch. For some reason I didn’t keep track of newer and older stuff, unlike all my other rifle brass.
The brass I loaded up yesterday was all fired through a Ruger Ranch last week. Some of it has 2-3 firings, some of it was new factory before going through the Ruger.
This AR hasn’t had “ a lot “ of use but is well used enough for me to be very familiar with it. I know there was no barrel obstruction, I’ve fired 220gn through it before ( factory and hand load), it’s never been a problem.
I need to check head spacing with some of this brass I pulled yesterday but I’ll be surprised if there’s an issue there.
Was there previous pistol powder in the dropper? I doubt it but …..? I actioned it until no more powder came out after I loaded 10mm previously 🤷‍♂️
Anyway, Farm chores first then I’ll look back into it.
Thanks for all the comments, keep them coming if you have any inspiration!! And Happy Thanksgiving 😁
 
This is not correct. An AR bolt MUST achieve full forward movement in order to begin its rotation - no rotation can occur until it is fully seated beyond the lugs of the barrel extension. An AR bolt does not begin rotation until it is past the barrel extension, it is impossible for it to rotate while still partially engaged in the barrel extension lugs.

Except when I piece of brass is dimensionally too big for the chamber and it drags/hangs up on the neck. It then attempts to start that rotational process too early in the sequence. So it is most likely 'I want to twist, twist, twist, but I can't' until it barely breaks over then kaboom. So no lock up, or partial lock up is achieved, but out of order, but enough to cause the wedge effect on the carrier.
It IS possible that the bolt could not complete its rotation, however the bolt itself would be fully seated at-depth before any rotation has occurred. The firing pin cannot be exposed until the bolt is almost fully rotated closed, which means that even if you experience an early detonation in an AR, the bolt would have been so close to fully closed that it shouldn’t matter.
See my pictures and feel free to post any of yours from any AR or BCG that you own. In both images I posted the firing pin is fully exposed to the primer.

If this was an “out of battery” (or… early?) detonation in an AR the bolt lugs would have been sheared.
Most likely what happens is when the case hangs up (due to the brass issue) the bolt is trying to rotate into place before it's all the way past the lugs on the barrel extension thus increasing the drag even more until it reaches the critical point where the firing pin is exposed.

In this situation, and it explains why, the carrier is split like a banana. The bolt itself acts like a wedge in a piece of firewood. The sequencing of events gets all messed up and the bolt gets subjected to the full force of a detonation (and gas) without having the lugs fully locked up, which resulted in a split carrier---the exact same as mine.

The tolerances in the BCG and barrel extension themselves leave some space in there...
 
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...may have been mentioned already but devil's advocate:

1. Perhaps a 223 round?
2. Are the cases factory BLK or remanufactured from 223? There are a lot of.inconsistencies in case wall (neck wall) thickness that could have caused.the OOB as mentioned above
 
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Is that brass too long maybe? The neck looks long in the pic. It would have to be either pistol powder, trash in there to cause out of chamber detonation, or brass jambed up so much it made double pressure to do that I would think. One of those 3 things is the only thing I could see doing that.
 
One image is the bolt fully closed all the way. The other image is when I push on the firing pin. The gap there is maybe 60-70/1000.

Anywhere in between there the firing pin can make contact with the primer.

I don't think I ever had a thread here. I am talking about my personal case from a couple of years ago.

By 'bad brass' I am specifically talking about something that is pretty much only applicable to 300 BLK, not necessarily a structurally broken case.

Specifically, I cut down brass on my own and formed it to 300 BLK. When doing this some brands of .223/5.56 brass will result in the neck thickness being too much. When you form the brass you cannot detect it (at least not very easily). However whenever you seat the bullet you have the bullet diameter + the neck wall thickness (x2) that will prevent it from seating in the chamber.

There are lists on the internet that name the 'bad brass' by name, so if you get any of that just use it for .223/5.56 or toss it. Just don't form it to 300 BLK.

The brass itself is not structurally bad. No. It just results in a round that dimensionally will not fit in many chambers.

You COULD turn the necks to solve the neck thickness issue, but really it's just as easy to either: Avoid those brands of cases; get a $20 case gauge; or a combination of the two. Or you could just buy factory formed 300 BLK brass from the get go.
The AR-15 design does not allow for the firing pin to be struck by the hammer unless the bolt lugs are already engaged in the barrel extension. The design would be incredibly unsafe otherwise. Either your gun was was out of spec in a bad way or you didn't have an out of battery detonation. Both can't be true.

Ammo that is difficult to chamber for any number of reasons is incredibly common. Dirty chambers, out of spec ammo, damaged ammo, out of spec chambers, etc... There are 20 million plus AR's in the wild just in civilian hands. If hard chambering rounds could cause the bolt to stop in just the right spot to cause an out of battery kaboom it would happen an awful lot and would be well known.

By posting your possibly errant analysis of your kaboom in every other kaboom thread you could cheat someone out of learning from their experience.

People, almost all Kabooms are cause by bore obstructions or extreme over pressure ammo. Please do your due diligence to focus your attention on preventing these two situations from happening.
 
The AR-15 design does not allow for the firing pin to be struck by the hammer unless the bolt lugs are already engaged in the barrel extension. The design would be incredibly unsafe otherwise. Either your gun was was out of spec in a bad way or you didn't have an out of battery detonation. Both can't be true.

Ammo that is difficult to chamber for any number of reasons is incredibly common. Dirty chambers, out of spec ammo, damaged ammo, out of spec chambers, etc... There are 20 million plus AR's in the wild just in civilian hands. If hard chambering rounds could cause the bolt to stop in just the right spot to cause an out of battery kaboom it would happen an awful lot and would be well known.

By posting your possibly errant analysis of your kaboom in every other kaboom thread you could cheat someone out of learning from their experience.

People, almost all Kabooms are cause by bore obstructions or extreme over pressure ammo. Please do your due diligence to focus your attention on preventing these two situations from happening.
It's simple.

You are wrong.
 
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A double charge of h110 wouldn't do that. It looks like my rifle when i put 25.5g of cfe pistol behind a 60g vmax instead of cfe223. Maybe a obstruction. But thats serious overpressure
As I said earlier though, a double charge will 'fit' but it's seriously compressed and when I tried it, I couldn't get it to stay seated at the correct COAL. Doesn't mean I didn't notice it though.
 
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It's simple.

You are wrong.
Simple test with your BCG.
Pull out bolt like it's completely unlocked.
Push in bolt as far as you can without turning the bolt.
See if your firing pin protrudes (it won't)

Now understand the relationship between the upper and cam pin. The cam pin will not let the bolt rotate until its in the extension.
 
Just to add more fuel to the fire .... some photos of the bolt. Notice the roll pin hanging out. It has wear on it too though I've not noticed it out before. I wonder if that had anything to do with it. Split the bolt in half too! And what's left of case head.
IMG_0029.jpeg
IMG_0027.jpeg
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...may have been mentioned already but devil's advocate:

1. Perhaps a 223 round?
2. Are the cases factory BLK or remanufactured from 223? There are a lot of.inconsistencies in case wall (neck wall) thickness that could have caused.the OOB as mentioned above
I don't shoot .223 . I did convert some cases a few years back but I'm sure they're long gone. These are all from factory rounds apart from one bulk bag of Top Brass used cases (never again!!)
 
Simple test with your BCG.
Pull out bolt like it's completely unlocked.
Push in bolt as far as you can without turning the bolt.
See if your firing pin protrudes (it won't)

Now understand the relationship between the upper and cam pin. The cam pin will not let the bolt rotate until its in the extension.
Just out of curiosity, all my ARs will leave a witness mark on the primer of a chambered but unfired round, so when is this happening? After rotation? It would seem more logical for it to protrude as the bolt stops at the extension before or as it starts to rotate? Just an uninformed thought ! :)
 
I had to test the OOB theory out for myself. My test probably isn’t perfect, but it was the best I could do at home.
I took a rod that was longer than the barrel to act as the bore/chamber obstruction and put a primed case on it(rod runs down into a bench block). Then I closed the bolt to the fully seated point just before the bolt starts to turn, and dropped a rod into the firing pin. I did this twice and it didn’t even mark the primer.
46DAF8B2-69DD-46A7-8A7A-4C917E89690A.jpeg

147E6269-1BAA-4335-A838-FFA2C2AE013C.jpeg

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8D7FA4FD-A421-49B9-A905-8541B796AC58.jpeg
41EB87A6-3672-4602-9BEF-5DF8F5892018.jpeg
 
Simple test with your BCG.
Pull out bolt like it's completely unlocked.
Push in bolt as far as you can without turning the bolt.
See if your firing pin protrudes (it won't)

Now understand the relationship between the upper and cam pin. The cam pin will not let the bolt rotate until its in the extension.
Already done. I posted pictures earlier in the thread.
 
I had to test the OOB theory out for myself. My test probably isn’t perfect, but it was the best I could do at home.
I took a rod that was longer than the barrel to act as the bore/chamber obstruction and put a primed case on it(rod runs down into a bench block). Then I closed the bolt to the fully seated point just before the bolt starts to turn, and dropped a rod into the firing pin. I did this twice and it didn’t even mark the primer.
In that test it wouldn't.

These kinds of detonations are actually not easy to have.
 
Just to add more fuel to the fire .... some photos of the bolt. Notice the roll pin hanging out. It has wear on it too though I've not noticed it out before. I wonder if that had anything to do with it. Split the bolt in half too! And what's left of case head.

Can you post a pic showing the back of the lugs? I am just curious if that would show anything...
 
If the bolt retracts into the carrier any more, the lugs would be locking up.
What I have been saying all along is that the timing of everything would be out of whack.

My hypothesis is that the bolt was actually experiencing pressure from an out of spec round forcing it back into the carrier before it got to that point. It slowed down the timing of everything until the point that it went 'home' or just beyond the point of where lock up is possible inside the barrel extension.

So it would be like the lugs were bound up on the extension for a split second until it got just beyond...and that's when it let go and detonation happened. I am not talking about being fully disengaged, but rather (possibly) partially engaged.
 
Yeah, I’m not saying it couldn’t happen. The rod I have in the bore runs all the way out to the bench and is pushing the bolt back. I guess I could try to see exactly how much rotation is needed to get it to indent the primer, but his setup could be way out of spec, so that probably wouldn’t tell us much anyway.
 
It's simple.

You are wrong.
That's exactly as intellegent of a response as I expected.

The OP's bolt lugs were obviously engaged in the extension when the overpressure occurred. Look at the picture of the back of the lugs. They are deformed.

Got a picture of the bolt lugs from your kaboom?
 
Yeah, I’m not saying it couldn’t happen. The rod I have in the bore runs all the way out to the bench and is pushing the bolt back. I guess I could try to see exactly how much rotation is needed to get it to indent the primer, but his setup could be way out of spec, so that probably wouldn’t tell us much anyway.
I would say that this kind of problem is actually very difficult to recreate (or have in the first place). On top of that it would probably be more isolated to 300BLK more so than .223/5.56 simply because in general people are not forming their own .223 brass out of something else. That's not to say you couldn't have a damaged round, but overall I would say it would be a bit more common in 300 BLK.
 
@alamo5000 is right. Here's a high round count receiver that shows cam pin wear. The reciver is aluminum and will deflect and deform. If what Alamo5000 is saying was untrue cam pin wear would not be possible.

This receiver is on its third barrel. Unknown round count but greater than 50k.

20231123_091732.jpg
 
By chance did the bullet get set back into the case when chambered? Setback can cause wild pressure spikes. Maybe even enough to disassemble a bolt.
 
Except when I piece of brass is dimensionally too big for the chamber and it drags/hangs up on the neck. It then attempts to start that rotational process too early in the sequence. So it is most likely 'I want to twist, twist, twist, but I can't' until it barely breaks over then kaboom. So no lock up, or partial lock up is achieved, but out of order, but enough to cause the wedge effect on the carrier.

See my pictures and feel free to post any of yours from any AR or BCG that you own. In both images I posted the firing pin is fully exposed to the primer.


Most likely what happens is when the case hangs up (due to the brass issue) the bolt is trying to rotate into place before it's all the way past the lugs on the barrel extension thus increasing the drag even more until it reaches the critical point where the firing pin is exposed.

In this situation, and it explains why, the carrier is split like a banana. The bolt itself acts like a wedge in a piece of firewood. The sequencing of events gets all messed up and the bolt gets subjected to the full force of a detonation (and gas) without having the lugs fully locked up, which resulted in a split carrier---the exact same as mine.

The tolerances in the BCG and barrel extension themselves leave some space in there...
Thank you for your reply, I was incorrect. Cascade Hemi shared why it can happen.
 
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I would say that this kind of problem is actually very difficult to recreate (or have in the first place). On top of that it would probably be more isolated to 300BLK more so than .223/5.56 simply because in general people are not forming their own .223 brass out of something else. That's not to say you couldn't have a damaged round, but overall I would say it would be a bit more common in 300 BLK.
Did you see the picture of the back of his lugs? Obviously it was in battery when fired.

Your presence in this thread with your nonsense about your kaboom and how you misdiagnosed it is counter productive.
 
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OP you said you were creating subsonic loads correct? Could a Secondary Explosive Effect (SEE) from an under charged round have had an effect?

For your barrel have a carbon ring by chance?
 
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Are the back sides of the bolt lugs worn down/beveled normal?
Would that reduce lockup strength. Is this tapered on the locking side?

Locking Side.JPG

Also noticed the potential galling on the extension.

Bolt blows open early due to poor lock up would be like an OOB.

With your load is fill percentage is about 50% ?
Set back won't do much with a half full case.
 
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By chance did the bullet get set back into the case when chambered? Setback can cause wild pressure spikes. Maybe even enough to disassemble a bolt.
Very possible but who knows. Certainly another route.
 
Are the back sides of the bolt lugs worn down/beveled normal?
Would that reduce lockup strength. Is this tapered on the locking side?

View attachment 8279489
Also noticed the potential galling on the extension.

Bolt blows open early due to poor lock up would be like an OOB.

With your load is fill percentage is about 50% ?
It's quite likely that the tapered part on the back of the lug was done during the explosion. Once it rotates close to open with 100,000 PSI pushing on it that portion on the edge could shear off. Might have been that way to start, but that is severe wear.
 
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Just out of curiosity, all my ARs will leave a witness mark on the primer of a chambered but unfired round, so when is this happening? After rotation? It would seem more logical for it to protrude as the bolt stops at the extension before or as it starts to rotate? Just an uninformed thought ! :)
I took some pictures, as it is easier to describe with images.

First is a bolt carrier group with the bolt fully extended. This is the configuration of your BCG when the bolt is "open.' The lugs are rotated such that they can slide in and out of the barren extension. The firing pin cannot extend beyond the bolt face.

tempImageohTHdL.jpg


The second image is the bolt fully closed. The lugs are fully rotated into the "locked" position, the bolt has reached the extent of it's travel into the bolt carrier, and the firing pin can protrude beyond the bolt face. This is essentially the condition of a properly functioning BCG when locked and ready to fire. (There may be some gun to gun variation in how far the bolt travels into the bolt carrier, based on the interaction of the bolt carrier and the barrel extension.) It is in this configuration that the floating firing pin, using retained momentum from the cycling of the action, leaves a "witness mark" on unfired cartridges.

tempImagewrveW7.jpg


This third image (below), however, shows the bolt fully rotated into the locked position, however, the bolt has not reached its full travel into the bolt carrier body. This represents the condition of the bolt at the exact instant that it is fully locked into position. What is notable about this configuration is that the firing pin cannot extend beyond the bolt face.

tempImagez3IbSL.jpg


Why the visual essay? This is to show that the firing pin, in a properly functioning ar15, cannot hit the primer of a chambered cartridge until the bolt is fully locked. About the only way for an out of battery detonation in a properly functioning AR15 is via slam fire, caused by a "proud" primer.

The beauty of this exercise is that anyone with an AR15 can do the same thing and prove the point to themselves.
 
Try to answer a few Qs here. Loads were right about 50% case fill. Faxon barrel (and whole rifle) is very low round count. The inner face of extension is deformed/gauled. My Bev Block won't even fit in the extension! It was clean and well lubed despite looking bone dry post thermo nuclear event!
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Lugs intact, none sheared off, bolt blown to bits (almost).
Extension damage shows at least partial lock up.
Detonation (Most will say fake news) with 50% fill of H110 (primer fires over top of powder column) , case head separation with a thin web Federal case, poor lock up.
 
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“Partial lockup” doesn’t make sense as, again, the firing pin cannot extend beyond the bolt face until the bolt is fully rotated. But, “early unlocking” due to an over-pressure cartridge could be the cause of all symptoms presented.
 
I was referring to partial lock from worn parts, with little overlap between bolt and extension.
I guess not possible with in spec low round count parts.
 
View attachment 8279490

Why the visual essay? This is to show that the firing pin, in a properly functioning ar15, cannot hit the primer of a chambered cartridge until the bolt is fully locked. About the only way for an out of battery detonation in a properly functioning AR15 is via slam fire, caused by a "proud" primer.

The beauty of this exercise is that anyone with an AR15 can do the same thing and prove the point to themselves.

This is a brand new in the box Radian BCG. I pushed the bolt all the way in to the fully seated position, then I pushed the firing pin with my finger. Reference my posts earlier where I put up pictures. This is equivalent to your 'position 3'.

The firing pin absolutely protrudes enough to contact the primer. I wouldn't rule out a proud primer, but on my BCG that I am using for illustration purposes, in the fully extended but still in lock position the pin is absolutely protruding more than enough to strike a primer.


IMG_20231123_112303467.jpg
 
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At LEAST partially in battery :)
I run a No-Gas 22 Nosler with more bolt thrust (larger diameter case body) than most cases using a .223 sized bolt.
Normal pressure with a locked up bolt, even with case separation (have had 2 in 3500 rounds) does NO damage.
This example shows LOTS of PRESSURE.
These were reloads. Unknown number of firings.
 
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