.223 - 5.56

[samsgreen]

I dont have any targets handy to show but I load for 3 ARs and a Ruger American Ranch, and the same two loads shoot at or better than 1moa in all three.

Win brass
23.3 Benchmark
CCI400
77gn SMK
2.250

Win brass
23.0 Benchmark
CCI400
77gn Tipped MK

I chased the IMI Razorcore 77 load, came up well short with Varget and 8208XBR.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Here's some more data. New starline brass, 23.5g imr 8208, hornady 80 eld, remington 7 1/2 primer. A couple groups were good and the other two had some fliers. Not sure if it's me or the load, very well could be me. Over the 20 shots SD was 15.8 and ES was 43.6. Not sure what my next step is. May try varget as well just because. Are bushing dies a waste if you don't anneal?

View attachment 8336365

No, ive had really good success with bushing dies, especially after being fired in the same chamber a few times. I use a mandrel for 1x fired then I go to just a bushing die unless there's a ding in one or something. If i see a dinged one, I will run a mandrel but my mandrel doesn't size it at all, it just keeps it the same as what the bushing does. I am doing more of my 223 on the dillon now which means more mandrel just because it's already on the tool head and there's no need to take it off but I did it without a mandrel on brass that I had shot 2x or more and got exactly the same numbers all around many times.

Annealing likely helps the spring back be consistent and I do anneal but the bushing die will still work without annealing.

 

[Mauser48]

No, ive had really good success with bushing dies, especially after being fired in the same chamber a few times. I use a mandrel for 1x fired then I go to just a bushing die unless there's a ding in one or something. If i see a dinged one, I will run a mandrel but my mandrel doesn't size it at all, it just keeps it the same as what the bushing does. I am doing more of my 223 on the dillon now which means more mandrel just because it's already on the tool head and there's no need to take it off but I did it without a mandrel on brass that I had shot 2x or more and got exactly the same numbers all around many times.

Annealing likely helps the spring back be consistent and I do anneal but the bushing die will still work without annealing.

I've been doing some more reading the last couple days and I think I'm going to go the mandrel round. Now I'm deciding whether I want to use a bushing die before the mandrel or just a regular full length die with the pin removed.

 

[Western Living]

For 223/556 I want to crimp for an autoloader. My bullets do have a crimp groove or cannelure. Lee Factory Crimp Die or Redding Micro-adjustable Taper Crimp die?

 

[Niles Coyote]

Just an update to my previous posts on 23.0 grains of N150 under a 88 gr ELD. It worked out well at this weekend's regional PRS match, I was averaging high 2690's FPS and finished in the top 5 with 3 points separating 1st-5th. Max distance at this range was limited to under 600.

 

[leatherman]

Anyone had any luck with CFE223 And the 80 ELDM or SMK. Rifle is a bolt, defiance receiver, rock creek Sendero 1x7 22 inch Wylde chamber. Seating at 2.390 have MDT mags but the rifle doesn’t like mag length seating depth

 

[leatherman]

Really trying to consolidate powders running 69,77,80 SMK AND 75, 80 ELDMs . Had a bad experience with 8208 XBR, so I stay away from that powder, pressure spike to quickly for me. Have Varget, RL15, CFE 223, staball 6.5, N140, W748 which actually performs well but not temp stable. Haven’t played with the N140. I’m not one to push the max for speed once I find an accuracy node I tend to stay with it. Only running out to 800 yards. What would you all suggest. Not having much luck with the CFE223..

 

[max1840]

Really trying to consolidate powders running 69,77,80 SMK AND 75, 80 ELDMs . Had a bad experience with 8208 XBR, so I stay away from that powder, pressure spike to quickly for me. Have Varget, RL15, CFE 223, staball 6.5, N140, W748 which actually performs well but not temp stable. Haven’t played with the N140. I’m not one to push the max for speed once I find an accuracy node I tend to stay with it. Only running out to 800 yards. What would you all suggest. Not having much luck with the CFE223..

Of the powders you list I use N140 and RL15 with 75 eldm's

 

[leatherman]

Thank you

 

[Mcrider55]

Really trying to consolidate powders running 69,77,80 SMK AND 75, 80 ELDMs . Had a bad experience with 8208 XBR, so I stay away from that powder, pressure spike to quickly for me. Have Varget, RL15, CFE 223, staball 6.5, N140, W748 which actually performs well but not temp stable. Haven’t played with the N140. I’m not one to push the max for speed once I find an accuracy node I tend to stay with it. Only running out to 800 yards. What would you all suggest. Not having much luck with the CFE223..

I like the CFE223 for my ARs as I shoot a much larger number of rounds thru them. It's a cleaner powder compared to HF335, so less buildup. I've found that CCI450 primers make a difference compared to the 400's.

Being new to precision shooting is an entirely different matter for me. What worked with my AR's isn't necessarily good for prs. I found this as some interesting reading.

https://carolinafirearmsforum.com/index.php?threads/the-primer-on-primers.77416/

 

[leatherman]

Thank you, going out again this wknd to give cfe223 one more chance

 

[Dolomite]

Here's some more data. New starline brass, 23.5g imr 8208, hornady 80 eld, remington 7 1/2 primer. A couple groups were good and the other two had some fliers. Not sure if it's me or the load, very well could be me. Over the 20 shots SD was 15.8 and ES was 43.6. Not sure what my next step is. May try varget as well just because. Are bushing dies a waste if you don't anneal?

View attachment 8336365

I had the same thing with hornady 75 eldm using 8208xbr. Not sure if it’s the powder or the bullet. I think both, 8208xbr doesn’t like heavy bullets above 55gr from what I read. I was thinking about using imr4064, not sure if that’s going to be any better.

 

[Dolomite]

Really trying to consolidate powders running 69,77,80 SMK AND 75, 80 ELDMs . Had a bad experience with 8208 XBR, so I stay away from that powder, pressure spike to quickly for me. Have Varget, RL15, CFE 223, staball 6.5, N140, W748 which actually performs well but not temp stable. Haven’t played with the N140. I’m not one to push the max for speed once I find an accuracy node I tend to stay with it. Only running out to 800 yards. What would you all suggest. Not having much luck with the CFE223..

I had the same experience with 8208xbr with 73 eldm, 73 Berger, 75 eldm and now 77SMK. From what I read the powder is not a good combination for heavier bullets in 223. I’m going to try imr4064 and see if that does any better. I have my doubts but that’s the only powder I have to test.

 

[leatherman]

I haven’t tried 4064, should have a couple of pounds of it. Following

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Get some TAC.the 1lb are available

 

[leatherman]

Bought some TAC yesterday gonna give it a try

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Bought some TAC yesterday gonna give it a try

Somewhere in the 23-24.5 range. I gona little more in my bolt gun but as you know that could vary a good bit per rifle.

 

[leatherman]

Right, most of my bolt guns like the 24-25 range so gonna start at 22.5 and work up

 

[Mauser48]

I tried 24 grains of tac with the 77 smk last weekend and had some really bad chrono results. I'll post them here later.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I tried 24 grains of tac with the 77 smk last weekend and had some really bad chrono results. I'll post them here later.

I've had better luck with it using 75gr hornady vs 77gr. Smk. Not sure exactly why

 

[Ex E6]

Many shooters today scoff at BLC-2 as opposed to newer powders . I still use a fair amount of BLC-2 as it give Great velocity and relatively inexpensive as powders go and as accurate as several other flavors . 24.6 with 77's works REALLY WELL . For those who moan about temp sensitivity ,I lived and worked a fair portion of MY life in the Southwest ,where temps often exceeded 110 F. and I never had any issues ; Provided one didn't leave their ammo in the direct sun !.
If you were foolish enough to have done that ,you only did it ONCE ,because after 3-5 minutes you couldn't even pick the round up .

 

[Mauser48]

Here are my numbers with tac across 19 shots. Starline brass, remington 7 1/2 primer, 24.0 grains of tac, sierra 77 smk, 2.260 oal. Most the shots are fairly consistent except for that one shot at the max velocity. No idea what's going on there. All charges were dispensed with a chargemaster.

SD: 42
ES: 211
Minimum: 2771
Max: 2983

 

[leatherman]

Wow, high numbers for SD & ES. Gonna try some this wknd as see what happens.

 

[padom]

Here's some TAC OCW tests out of my 20" Compass Lake Bartlein AR with 77smk and 73 ELD..

I didn't have great luck with 77smk/Tac at the speeds I wanted. It shot better at lower velocity with this combo for me..

73 ELD shot really well with Tac and had good numbers and accuracy


77smk TAC 100yd OCW






73 ELD TAC 100yd OCW

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I think both, 8208xbr doesn’t like heavy bullets above 55gr from what I read.

I had the same experience with 8208xbr with 73 eldm, 73 Berger, 75 eldm and now 77SMK. From what I read the powder is not a good combination for heavier bullets in 223.

That's not been my experience or that of anyone I know. XBR and 77's is the go to magic load for a lot of people.

 

[WasNH4X]

Here's some TAC OCW tests out of my 20" Compass Lake Bartlein AR with 77smk and 73 ELD..

I didn't have great luck with 77smk/Tac at the speeds I wanted. It shot better at lower velocity with this combo for me..

73 ELD shot really well with Tac and had good numbers and accuracy


77smk TAC 100yd OCW






73 ELD TAC 100yd OCW

Interesting, thanks for posting . I don't mind " lobbing " them in there ,when they group like shown above.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

That's not been my experience or that of anyone I know. XBR and 77's is the go to magic load for a lot of people.

 

[padom]

I had the same experience with 8208xbr with 73 eldm, 73 Berger, 75 eldm and now 77SMK. From what I read the powder is not a good combination for heavier bullets in 223. I’m going to try imr4064 and see if that does any better. I have my doubts but that’s the only powder I have to test.

Uh, its actually the complete opposite. 70gr 223 bullets and 8208XBR are a go to combo that shoots lights out...


73 ELD and 8208

77smk 8208

 

[misser]

i'm experimenting with VV140 & VV150 its works yet there is some crunch when seating the 85 gr,'ers . wanted some VV540 but not till there's a free hazmat offering. 2520 has been my goto powder , have found this gun likes a lite neck tension ,30psi ish has worked the best

 

[Mauser48]

What do you guys think about n140 vs n540 for 75-80 grain bullets?

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

What do you guys think about n140 vs n540 for 75-80 grain bullets?

I'd also love to hear more about this.

 

[Niles Coyote]

N150 at 23 grains sends 85.5's and 88's down range effectively in my 26" proof. I have a friend who does the same with N140 but I don't have any info on his load.

 

[Dolomite]

That's not been my experience or that of anyone I know. XBR and 77's is the go to magic load for a lot of people.

What’s your load data and speed for a bolt gun?

 

[misser]

i do like the XBR ....just to hard to get

 

[TonyTheTiger]

What’s your load data and speed for a bolt gun?

23.6gr with any 77 or 75gr bullet. Never chrono'd in my bolt 5.56, gets 2700-2725 in all the 16" AR's I've got, the 25fps per inch rule of thumb holds true enough between 14-22" so I don't bother shooting over the chrono with the fleet of 5.56 guns I have. I can wild ass guess the dope and get hits fine out to 800, so I barely even look as ES and 100 yard groups.

 

[Dolomite]

23.6gr with any 77 or 75gr bullet. Never chrono'd in my bolt 5.56, gets 2700-2725 in all the 16" AR's I've got, the 25fps per inch rule of thumb holds true enough between 14-22" so I don't bother shooting over the chrono with the fleet of 5.56 guns I have. I can wild ass guess the dope and get hits fine out to 800, so I barely even look as ES and 100 yard groups.

I went from 22gr 2650 fps up to 23.8 2900 fps and couldn’t find a powder node. SD avgs 7-10 es 10-30. Out of a bolt gun. Anything above 23.7gr flattened and cratered primers bad. I’ll probably test around the 22.3gr mark at 2700 fps since that was the most consistent numbers and the best groups.

 

[padom]

I went from 22gr 2650 fps up to 23.8 2900 fps and couldn’t find a powder node. SD avgs 7-10 es 10-30. Out of a bolt gun. Anything above 23.7gr flattened and cratered primers bad. I’ll probably test around the 22.3gr mark at 2700 fps since that was the most consistent numbers and the best groups.

I had zero issues going up to 24.6gr 8208 with 70 RDF's in my 26" Shilen Select Match 223 Wylde TL3 bolt gun... Lapua brass, 205M, 1.909" Base to Ogive. 24.6gr was starting to show pressure 3042 SD6... My load was 24.0gr 2979 SD3.... sub 0.5moa

I dont shoot 8208 in my 223 bolt guns because its my go to powder for 75/77gr loads in my 20" Precision AR's. I wanted to use a different powder so many many years ago I tested all the powders and found Varget and H4895 to shoot lights out. So thats what I always feed my 223 bolt guns... Both shoot 1 hole groups, H4895 does it with a little more speed and less powder.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I went from 22gr 2650 fps up to 23.8 2900 fps and couldn’t find a powder node. SD avgs 7-10 es 10-30. Out of a bolt gun. Anything above 23.7gr flattened and cratered primers bad. I’ll probably test around the 22.3gr mark at 2700 fps since that was the most consistent numbers and the best groups.

23.4-23.8 is a pretty well known node with 77's. Weird that you're seeing pressure signs at that point, especially in a bolt gun.

 

[jLorenzo]

What do you guys think about n140 vs n540 for 75-80 grain bullets?

N140 is good stuff,pretty close to Varget but not exactly the same. I have a pound of 540 but havent used it yet. I use single base powders whenever possible. The barrel gets a lot hotter with double base and competitive shooters that go through a lot of barrels have mentioned 540 as a barrel burner. Barrels don't last as long. If I had to pick one it would be N140, thats a powder I would buy 8# jugs of.

 

[jLorenzo]

N150 at 23 grains sends 85.5's and 88's down range effectively in my 26" proof. I have a friend who does the same with N140 but I don't have any info on his load.

What velocity? I use 85.5s, have been using Varget but have a pound of 150 sitting around.

 

[Dolomite]

23.4-23.8 is a pretty well known node with 77's. Weird that you're seeing pressure signs at that point, especially in a bolt gun.

I’m seated long too 1.980 CBTO.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Yeah, 8208XBR is terrible behind 77s.

 

[jLorenzo]

What do you guys think about n140 vs n540 for 75-80 grain bullets?

I would also add, if you aren't familiar with Vihtavouri in general, its really good stuff and now cheaper than Alliant and Hodgdon. Used to be the other way around.

 

[MarshallDodge]

What do you guys think about n140 vs n540 for 75-80 grain bullets?

I've been shooting the 80 ELD-M with 23.0 N540, LC brass, CCI450. Accuracy has been sub 1/2 MOA at 100, and I have shot them out to 950 yards. I'm going to try 23.3 grains on my next batch.

 

[Mauser48]

I might pick up a pound at my gun store to try if they have it. Are n140 and n540 the same kernel size? What are the kernels like compared to varget?

 

[MarshallDodge]

I might pick up a pound at my gun store to try if they have it. Are n140 and n540 the same kernel size? What are the kernels like compared to varget?

They are short. I load using a chargemaster and with a little tuning it is quick.

 

[Dolomite]

Anyone try imr4064?

 

[jLorenzo]

Anyone try imr4064?

I have not but remember hearing it has very long kernals, worse than Varget and also that it used to be the M118LR powder with the 175 SMK.

 

[Niles Coyote]

What velocity? I use 85.5s, have been using Varget but have a pound of 150 sitting around.

88's right at 2700 and 85.5's about 50fps faster

 

[MarshallDodge]

Anyone try imr4064?

I have not tried it but read of a lot of success by others with 68 grain and up bullets. Like mentioned, the kernels are long which makes it bulky, and more difficult to fit a max charge into a 223 case.