.223 - 5.56

#1,201
That's what I was thinking. I'm a mediocre shot when shooting from the type of positions used in PRS. I think this quick and dirty session shows that under most circumstances this gun/ammo combination is going to be more accurate than I am.

I'm looking forward to bumping up the powder and setting COAL correctly and seeing what it will do.

I live in MA and the longest I can shoot is 300 yards. Over Columbus Day weekend I'll be up at my place in NH where I have 35 acres and can shoot 800 yards. I'm hoping to have a semi-final load made and entered into my Kestrel.
 
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#1,202
dcmdon said:
I'll gather up some same year Lake City brass, size it, trim it, uniform the flash hole and measure each charge for next week and see how it goes.
Click to expand...

dcmdon said:
In the past I've spun down the expander ball by a couple of thousandths to provide for more neck tension (that is how my Dillon sizing die is set up).
Click to expand...
Your Dillon will hold 0.1g well and I only get a + 0.1g load on the first pull of the day. So if whatever your measuring with is ×/- 0.1g check your dillon and just run it.

I also polish my expander ball to - 0.004 thousands .

But then everything goes through a -0.002 mandrel .

Exact ammount of nt is consistancy and the mandrell does that best.
 
#1,204
Snuby642 said:
Your Dillon will hold 0.1g well and I only get a + 0.1g load on the first pull of the day. So if whatever your measuring with is ×/- 0.1g check your dillon and just run it.

I also polish my expander ball to - 0.004 thousands .

But then everything goes through a -0.002 mandrel .

Exact ammount of nt is consistancy and the mandrell does that best.
Click to expand...
I've just started researching precision sizing dies.

I noticed that all of them allow you to swap out different sized bushings.

I have been reading this evening and now know that I need to figure how mandrels and bushings interact and how to figure sizes of each. In short, I now know what I DON'T know. Which is a good first step. Ha.

I've always just used the expander ball to set neck tension. It got me to a 3 fps SD with my .308 loads. But apparently there is a better way. Like I said, I'm not even at the point where I'm sorting brass for head stamp yet with my .223 loads so I think I'm just going to run the standard Dillon FL resizing die with an undersized expander ball for the time being.

Thank you all again for all this knowledge.
 
#1,205
Snuby642 said:
I also polish my expander ball to - 0.004 thousands .

But then everything goes through a -0.002 mandrel .

Exact ammount of nt is consistancy and the mandrell does that best.
Click to expand...

So you use the ball to expand the case mouth a bit.

Then do the final expansion to size with the mandrel.

No bushings involved? I like the idea of basing the sizing on the ID of the case mouth, not the OD. So this makes sense to me.
 
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#1,206
I use a redding type s set. If I had to do it again I'd consider a wilson bushing die and a forster micrometer seater. I use a bushing to size about .002 under desired neck tension then use a .222 mandrel. I'd also recommend starline brass.
 
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#1,207
That's the beauty of the sizing button mod and a mandrell.

No bushings to change or measurements to take, no worries about changing or mixing brass.

As long as you have a no turn chamber all you need to adjust is powder and seating depth.

All my ammo gets a small crimp aproxamatly 1/8 turn from just touching. It's all semiautomatic 223 fodder.
 
#1,208
I will say even if you decide you don't want to mandrel every time it's a great tool to have for new brass which is often dented and undersized or if you drop a piece of brass at some point in the loading process and don't want to run it through the full length die again.
 
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#1,209
dcmdon said:
Does anyone have recommendations for match dies?

I've used both Redding and Hornady micrometer seating dies and don't really have an opinion on them.

By the way. I'm not crimping. Just using neck tension.

In the past I've spun down the expander ball by a couple of thousandths to provide for more neck tension (that is how my Dillon sizing die is set up).

Is this a good thing to continue, or should I crimp? Ammo will be used in a bolt gun only.
Click to expand...
??? If you spun? Down the expander ball you decreased your neck tension. As for seating bullets you might want to try a Wilson seating die with an arbor press for better results. Anyway have fun!
 
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#1,210
As far as crimping bullets i have never seen an improvement in rifle groups. Only time i crimp is when loading for pistol. But go ahead see what you see. That goes for loading semi auto rifles never seen an improvement.
 
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#1,211
dcmdon said:
Thank you.

I was given 800 of these bullets by someone who bought them to use in his AR and then found that they didn't really like to be loaded to AR magazine length.

Based on today's results, I'm going to make some common sense changes to try to wring out some more accuracy. Obviously, this was a starting powder charge. Today's rounds
1. Were too short.
2. Were mixed brass
3. Were loaded on a Dillon 550 using the Dillon powder drop
4) Were loaded with Dillon dies

I'll gather up some same year Lake City brass, size it, trim it, uniform the flash hole and measure each charge for next week and see how it goes.
Click to expand...
Ain’t nothin wrong with jumping em 62 thou. I usually start around 50 thou and if it shoots good I don’t bother trying anything else sometimes.
 
#1,212
Cr1775 said:
??? If you spun? Down the expander ball you decreased your neck tension. As for seating bullets you might want to try a Wilson seating die with an arbor press for better results. Anyway have fun!
Click to expand...

Spinning down the expander ball decreases its diameter. So it expands the case mouth less. Which results in a smaller diameter case mouth, which means more neck tension when you stuff similarly sized bullets into it.
 
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#1,213
dcmdon said:
Spinning down the expander ball decreases its diameter. So it expands the case mouth less. Which results in a smaller diameter case mouth, which means more neck tension when you stuff similarly sized bullets into
Click to expand...
Still trying to figure out how to spin them down evenly. Guess i don't have a big enough shop for that . Much easier to call Forster and order the size i want.
 
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#1,214
In regards to all this bushing and expander talk - I played the bushing and mandrel game for a bit and the last handful of cartridges I've
moved to just getting forster FL sizing dies honed to not overwork the necks and use the expander balls. Maybe benchrest guys can tell the difference but I cant and it's one less pass through a single stage press this way and dies are economical. Less of a deal if each is a stage on a progressive press but i'm not wasting time on it with a single stage.
Cr1775 said:
Still trying to figure out how to spin them down evenly. Guess i don't have a big enough shop for that . Much easier to call Forster and order the size i want.
Click to expand...
Does forster still do that?
 
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#1,215
wind gypsy said:
In regards to all this bushing and expander talk - I played the bushing and mandrel game for a bit and the last handful of cartridges I've
moved to just getting forster FL sizing dies honed to not overwork the necks and use the expander balls. Maybe benchrest guys can tell the difference but I cant and it's one less pass through a single stage press this way and dies are economical. Less of a deal if each is a stage on a progressive press but i'm not wasting time on it with a single stage.

Does forster still do that?
Click to expand...
They did for me 2 years ago. My cast 308 bullets are sized .310, i needed a ball that was .308.
Forster always been good to me.
 
#1,216
Cr1775 said:
Still trying to figure out how to spin them down evenly. Guess i don't have a big enough shop for that . Much easier to call Forster and order the size i want.
Click to expand...

Let me know if this is a bad way to do it.

But I just measured the expander ball, chucked it in a drill press and used some crocus cloth to take .002 off of it, then finished it with some finer wet sand paper.
 
Last edited:
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#1,217
^^^^^^^^ That's the way I do all mine.

Put the stem in a drill and polish away a couple thousands.

-4 thou on the expander works the brass less at a time and the -2 mandrell die setup reduced fliers and shrank groups.

Now when I change powder by 0.1g I can see the difference on paper.

Not really a bench rest shooter but load development is done on a bench with sand bags. Cuts down on variables.
 
#1,218
Snuby642 said:
^^^^^^^^ That's the way I do all mine.

Put the stem in a drill and polish away a couple thousands.

-4 thou on the expander works the brass less at a time and the -2 mandrell die setup reduced fliers and shrank groups.

Now when I change powder by 0.1g I can see the difference on paper.

Not really a bench rest shooter but load development is done on a bench with sand bags. Cuts down on variables.
Click to expand...

So you don't use bushings? Just size it down with the die? Expand it a bit with the ball and then expand it to final size with a mandrel?

Thanks in advance.
 
Last edited:
#1,221
I've been sorting brass by head stamp. I've always had good luck with Lake City brass with the same head stamp.

I fulll length resize, trim to length, then weigh them. Since the resizing and trimming defines the outside dimensions, the variance in weight is caused by difference in wall thickness and by extension, volume.

However, I've noticed a strange variance among brass with the same head stamp.

One primer is crimped in using a totally different method than the other. Does anyone have any wisdom on if this is something I should care about?

Same brass, they just probably have multiple crimping machines that use different methods? Are these vastly different and made in different factories with different batches of brass?? Should I care?

Should I just suck it up and buy brass? Ha.
 

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#1,222
No don't buy brass.

I use a lot of different brass I get off a nice clean range.
Lake City brass may be made at multiple locations for the contracts. That's why I don't use it for precision rounds if I can help it.

Go to a range that has yuppies buying thier range brass.

Sort those out as the predominant brass. Use that, no one will use some of those brands because the cheap store round wont group.

There is nothing wrong with it, that brass is good to go.
 
#1,224
Snuby642 said:
No don't buy brass.

I use a lot of different brass I get off a nice clean range.
Lake City brass may be made at multiple locations for the contracts. That's why I don't use it for precision rounds if I can help it.

Go to a range that has yuppies buying thier range brass.

Sort those out as the predominant brass. Use that, no one will use some of those brands because the cheap store round wont group.

There is nothing wrong with it, that brass is good to go.
Click to expand...
Thank you. I guess its all about knowing that all the brass in a batch is as consistent as possible.

I've got several hundred pieces of Federal Gold Medal Match brass, easy to identify because of the sealant on the base of the primer. It may not be the longest lasting brass. But if it's full length resized and trimmed to length, it weighs in very consistently and gives good SD and ES.

I've also got about 800 pieces of PMC. Ha. I should size and trim some of them and see how they weigh in.
 
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#1,225
Snuby642 said:
Lake City brass may be made at multiple locations for the contracts. That's why I don't use it for precision rounds if I can help it.
Click to expand...

As long as it's matching headstamp LC it shoots excellent and as good as lapua in my bolt guns... mixed headstamp is a different story.. I'll group in 100pc batchs by headstamp for precision AR ammo.. LC 09, LC 12, LC 14, LC 07, ETC
 
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#1,230
Xferbuckeye said:
Anyone have experience and/or opinion on RWS brass for 223. I know RWS as a brand, but not their 223 brass. Will be using in a bolt gun and saw a bunch of it at a great price.
Click to expand...
I regularly use RWS brass ( not so much in 5.56X45 but other calibers ) as well as Norma , Lapua , FN and LC .
Sometime back in the 90's I made a terrific score on some RWS as well as F.N. Belgium 5.56X45 & 7.62X51 . Retrospectively , I should have bought a pallet of the stuff . Very accurate Military grade and excellent cases (y)
 
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#1,231
wind gypsy said:
In regards to all this bushing and expander talk - I played the bushing and mandrel game for a bit and the last handful of cartridges I've
moved to just getting forster FL sizing dies honed to not overwork the necks and use the expander balls. Maybe benchrest guys can tell the difference but I cant and it's one less pass through a single stage press this way and dies are economical. Less of a deal if each is a stage on a progressive press but i'm not wasting time on it with a single stage.

Does forster still do that?
Click to expand...
This is what I do as well. I got a forster FL die with the neck honed out (well worth the $17 they charge) and expander ball removed so it only squeezes the OD of the neck to a few thou below my target neck OD, then I use an expander mandrel/die to open it up to my final target OD that provides 2 thou neck tension on LC brass. I check the ID with a 0.222 pin gauge to verify.
 
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#1,232
dcmdon said:
Thank you. I guess its all about knowing that all the brass in a batch is as consistent as possible.

I've got several hundred pieces of Federal Gold Medal Match brass, easy to identify because of the sealant on the base of the primer. It may not be the longest lasting brass. But if it's full length resized and trimmed to length, it weighs in very consistently and gives good SD and ES.

I've also got about 800 pieces of PMC. Ha. I should size and trim some of them and see how they weigh in.
Click to expand...
I have used plenty of PMC brass.
Go slow on the down stroke as you may find a off center primer hole.

1 -2 per hundred.
I feel resistance I pull the ram up and rotate the brass and try one more time. If it fails to deprime without much effort it's good to go strait into the recycling tub.

I think it is a bit thick but had good results with it.

Edit: It's just another brand overlooked because it's about 1 - 1 1/2 moa from the factory.
 
Last edited:
#1,233
Following up after six fire/anneal cycles on the RWS brass. No issues and the repeatability - on everything I can measure anyway - after putting them through a honed Forster die and KM mandrel is so consistent it’s boring. Necks have been more uniform than my Lapua 223 in thickness. Been getting sub .4moa groups with a few VV powders in gas and bolt guns. This brass LOVES n100 powders and 77 smks in a bolt gun. Not an exciting load but can’t beat the performance or the economics.
 
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#1,234
padom said:
As long as it's matching headstamp LC it shoots excellent and as good as lapua in my bolt guns... mixed headstamp is a different story.. I'll group in 100pc batchs by headstamp for precision AR ammo.. LC 09, LC 12, LC 14, LC 07, ETC
Click to expand...
This is my method as well. Sort by headstamp, load and shoot on. Don't worry about it any further than that for non-match use. Plenty good for training and varmint hunting - far better than anything store bought when dialed in for your particular rifle.

After loading and checking each round, I line a fat 50 with a trash bag, dump 1k in, then toss in a desiccant pack. Make a load label for inside and outside the can, tie bag up, toss in label on top. Light smear of white lithium grease on the gasket, close it up and label outside. Good to go for longer than it will need to be.
 
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#1,238
REM 223 - Mixed brass
BENCHMARK - 21.5GR
HORNADY VMAX 50GR
CCI BR4
COAL - 2.240
FPS - 2443 over 20 rounds

REM 223 - Mixed brass
BENCHMARK - 22.6GR
HORNADY VMAX 50GR
CCI BR4
COAL - 2.240
FPS - 2573 over 20 rounds

REM 223 - Mixed brass
BENCHMARK - 23.7GR
HORNADY VMAX 50GR
CCI BR4
COAL - 2.240
FPS - 2743 over 20 rounds
 
Last edited:
#1,239
REM 223 - Mixed brass
CFE 223 - 24.5GR
BERRYS FMJBT - 62 GR
CCI BR4
COAL - 2.250
FPS - 2498 over 20 rounds

REM 223 - Mixed brass
CFE 223 - 25.4GR
BERRYS FMJBT - 62 GR
CCI BR4
COAL - 2.250
FPS - 2602 over 20 rounds

REM 223 - Mixed brass
CFE 223 - 25.6GR
BERRYS FMJBT - 62 GR
CCI BR4
COAL - 2.250
FPS - 2639 over 12 rounds

REM 223 - Mixed brass
CFE 223 - 25.9GR
BERRYS FMJBT - 62 GR
CCI BR4
COAL - 2.250
FPS - 2698 over 12 rounds

REM 223 - Mixed brass
CFE 223 - 26.2GR
BERRYS FMJBT - 62 GR
CCI BR4
COAL - 2.250
FPS - 2744 over 12 rounds

REM 223 - Mixed brass
CFE 223 - 26.5GR
BERRYS FMJBT - 62 GR
CCI BR4
COAL - 2.250
FPS - 2819 over 12 rounds
 
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#1,240
75gr ELD-M, Starline brass, Fed 205MAR primer, 24.5gr N150, 1.883 CBTO (.030 off).

2,818 FPS, 28 ES, 12 SD.

26" Krieger barreled bolt gun

*****

Finally gave the 75gr ELD-M a try in my .223 wylde bolt gun trainer. This one has a 26" Krieger, and just seems to hang around half-minute with the 69 and 77gr SMK, and will generally shoot the 75gr BTHP from Hornady well but is extremely picky about seating depth.

Turns out this barrel is extremely picky on seating depth with the ELD-M as well. I started with Reloader 15 because it has a wide window with the SMKs. Everything but .030 off sucked with this bullet.

Tried N150 for grins last week because why not, and got much better ES and SD...along with decent velocity and this initial 5-round group:
Screenshot_20250202_164438_Gallery.jpg


Sorry, this target is a bit cluttered. Velocity was 2,818 with an ES of 28 and SD of 12.

Shot it again today in a little more wind. I also wanted to test my cold bore POI, and today it was right in there.

20250202_152718.jpg


FWIW 24.5gr N150 is compressed in Starline brass as there is about 1gr less H2O capacity than Lapua or Lake City.

*****

Still have to shoot it some more to verify, but it is looking promising at the moment. I am by no means settled on this load.

I also need to get a new seating die (with different stem). As soon as my load got compressed, I started leaving a heck of a nose ring.
 
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#1,244
diggler1833 said:
75gr ELD-M, Starline brass, Fed 205MAR primer, 24.5gr N150, 1.883 CBTO (.030 off).

2,818 FPS, 28 ES, 12 SD.

26" Krieger barreled bolt gun

*****

Finally gave the 75gr ELD-M a try in my .223 wylde bolt gun trainer. This one has a 26" Krieger, and just seems to hang around half-minute with the 69 and 77gr SMK, and will generally shoot the 75gr BTHP from Hornady well but is extremely picky about seating depth.

Turns out this barrel is extremely picky on seating depth with the ELD-M as well. I started with Reloader 15 because it has a wide window with the SMKs. Everything but .030 off sucked with this bullet.

Tried N150 for grins last week because why not, and got much better ES and SD...along with decent velocity and this initial 5-round group:
View attachment 8607402

Sorry, this target is a bit cluttered. Velocity was 2,818 with an ES of 28 and SD of 12.

Shot it again today in a little more wind. I also wanted to test my cold bore POI, and today it was right in there.

View attachment 8607403

FWIW 24.5gr N150 is compressed in Starline brass as there is about 1gr less H2O capacity than Lapua or Lake City.

*****

Still have to shoot it some more to verify, but it is looking promising at the moment. I am by no means settled on this load.

I also need to get a new seating die (with different stem). As soon as my load got compressed, I started leaving a heck of a nose ring.
Click to expand...
Hornady makes a 88 eld seating stem and maybe a 75 as well. I use the one made for 88s with everything 75gr bthp, 77 smk, 80 smk, 80.5 berg, 85.5 berg, no issues.


I also have struggled to get the 75 eld to shoot in a Bartlein that shoots literally everything else tight. Even the 75gr bthp bug holes. I assume seating depth is the issue.
 
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#1,245
jLorenzo said:
Hornady makes a 88 eld seating stem and maybe a 75 as well. I use the one made for 88s with everything 75gr bthp, 77 smk, 80 smk, 80.5 berg, 85.5 berg, no issues.


I also have struggled to get the 75 eld to shoot in a Bartlein that shoots literally everything else tight. Even the 75gr bthp bug holes. I assume seating depth is the issue.
Click to expand...

Much appreciated!

Yeah, the 75gr ELD-M was really close to a MOA bullet (5 shot groups) at everything but .030 off for me. Then it tightened up to a half-minute performer.

The biggest downside for me is that at ~2.425" it is a single-feed cartridge for me. Fortunately, both the 69 and 77gr SMK loads easily fit in the mags.
 
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#1,247
75gr ELD-M, Starline brass, Fed 205MAR primer, 24.5gr N150, 1.883 CBTO (.030 off).

2,818 FPS, 28 ES, 12 SD when I chrono'd it.

Same 26" Krieger, 1:7.

Shot five quick rounds at 300 yards today. Wind is 10-20 MPH, but almost no value, so I gave it a try. Came to about 2-1/2"...so about .8 MOA. Bonus that the cold bore is in the middle of the group again.

I'll wait until it calms, and then try 10.

20250208_123622.jpg
 
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#1,248
diggler1833 said:
75gr ELD-M, Starline brass, Fed 205MAR primer, 24.5gr N150, 1.883 CBTO (.030 off).

2,818 FPS, 28 ES, 12 SD when I chrono'd it.

Same 26" Krieger, 1:7.

Shot five quick rounds at 300 yards today. Wind is 10-20 MPH, but almost no value, so I gave it a try. Came to about 2-1/2"...so about .8 MOA. Bonus that the cold bore is in the middle of the group again.

I'll wait until it calms, and then try 10.

View attachment 8612231
Click to expand...
With your 26" barrel you should be able to comfortably get the velocity to around 2910. Then you can try 1000 yards...

Don't know if you have the case capacity though.
 
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#1,249
JerkyFreak said:
With your 26" barrel you should be able to comfortably get the velocity to around 2910. Then you can try 1000 yards...

Don't know if you have the case capacity though.
Click to expand...

You can with a different powder but interested in the N150 also as they are priced right now. With XBR or Varget I get close to 3000fps with 75 ELDs in my 27” .223 Wylde. If I could get some VV that can do it I would be happy.
 
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#1,250
JerkyFreak said:
With your 26" barrel you should be able to comfortably get the velocity to around 2910. Then you can try 1000 yards...

Don't know if you have the case capacity though.
Click to expand...

Not with N150 unfortunately. If I used a drop tube I could probably fit a couple more tenths...or if I went to Lapua or LC brass I could probably get over 25gr fairly easily. Starline brass is thick, and I'm handicapping myself with it.

I don't think N150 is going to be optimal for really squeezing all of the potential velocity out of a .223 anyway. I just wanted to test it out since I was sitting on a lot of it, and my old stand-by .223 powder (Reloader 15) wasn't really impressive with this bullet.

Fortunately for me, 99% of my shooting is at 650 yards and in.
 
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