Accuracy International Picture Thread

#22,351
HKSniper11B said:
There's a ridiculously good chance its 1:12. Especially as a 2014. But better to be sure. I ran a rod through mine and confirmed.
Click to expand...
I tried some FGMM in mine. Some left over LE ammo. Can’t remember if it was 168 or 175. But that shot very well. Previous owner said it shot excellent with a bunch of rounds from 155-175 that he tried. All hand loads though

On the plus side wife said my DE skins from MH and cheek piece thumb screws from SS arrived today so time for a wardrobe change

IMG_7317.jpeg
 
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#22,355
I
HKSniper11B said:
* ... with the right ammo, which took me quite some time to find a factory load & round that would shoot this tightly.

1:12 twist is hard to work with. A lot of modern rounds made today will not stabilize properly with it; I currently have a small list of rounds that won't, with shot groups & shot data. And with Applied Ballistic's Stability Calculator now directly integrated into their application, it is easy to see what is and isn't stable. Many rounds are either too heavy, too long, or both, for 1:12 twist. Those that are stable, don't have the reach. Finding a round that can reach 850-1000 yards, and is stable enough to group tightly, has been a challenge. Seeing 168gr TMK perform so well, and that it works well in the Federal T308T factory load -- having great enough velocity of 2603fps from a 20" and 2653fps from a 24" to reach 1000 yards -- has been a real joy to find.

This said, I don't know if the round is spinning fast enough out past 700 yards to group as well as a 1:10 barrel, and I have yet to find out. No one has ever given me a good answer as to what is a solid factory round that that performs well from the AW/AT barrels in 1:12 twist in the US, and this is an affordable and effective round that does. This data was important to share.
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I've got a 16" 1:12 LW on the way.
Thanks for the confidence boost....
 
#22,359
beetroot said:
168gr SMKs is where I was going to start.
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I wouldn't unless you're staying 700(ish) and in.

"The 168gr SMK out of a .308 is usually considered a 7-800yd bullet tops due to the instability during transonic and then subsonic speeds. There have been shots made longer but overall reliability for making longer distance hits goes way down after that 7-800yd range when compared to other available bullets." I pulled that from this website, but the same.exact.thing was told to me (by someone who is not new) very, very early on.

My .308 barrel is 1/10, but 150 Scenars are amazing to 1,000, but don't handle the transonic range (past 1,000) nearly as well as 175SMKs, but the 175SMKs don't do *quite* as well to 1,000.

That said, I love the 175smk, and IIRC it was designed for the 1/12 barrels (check me on that, but that's what I seem to recall).


TL/DR: Avoid 168SMKs unless you're only shooting to 600. 175SMKs are great and so are 150 scenars.
 
#22,360
hafejd30 said:
I run 178 ELDX handloads at 2605 in the exact same barrel. Only have shot to 800 as it spends its whole life shooting deer inside 600 yards. But it’s a hammer with those

100 yards - 3 shot groups
View attachment 8639052
440 yards- 3 shots
View attachment 8639053
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Mine HATES the Hornady bullets.

I'm talking popping primers at starting loads hate for the Hornady bullets.

However, it loves the 175s at average velocity.
 
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#22,361
RedBreast21 said:
I wouldn't unless you're staying 700(ish) and in.

"The 168gr SMK out of a .308 is usually considered a 7-800yd bullet tops due to the instability during transonic and then subsonic speeds. There have been shots made longer but overall reliability for making longer distance hits goes way down after that 7-800yd range when compared to other available bullets." I pulled that from this website, but the same.exact.thing was told to me (by someone who is not new) very, very early on.

My .308 barrel is 1/10, but 150 Scenars are amazing to 1,000, but don't handle the transonic range (past 1,000) nearly as well as 175SMKs, but the 175SMKs don't do *quite* as well to 1,000.

That said, I love the 175smk, and IIRC it was designed for the 1/12 barrels (check me on that, but that's what I seem to recall).


TL/DR: Avoid 168SMKs unless you're only shooting to 600. 175SMKs are great and so are 150 scenars.
Click to expand...
I’ve read this a lot about the 168 SMK, I figured for a 16” barrel I’m not likely to be shooting past 600yards very often, which should keep the 168 out of the transonic zone. I’m guessing a 1:12 twist 16” barrel will struggle to stabilise the sleeker bullets, but the 168 SMKs should be a safe starting point.

I managed to get a good deal some match ammo with the 168 SMKs (cheap enough that it’s cheaper than buying just the brass and projectiles). Not sure how much use this barrel will get, so figured a few hundred rounds of factory ammo will at least get me some fire formed brass should I want to start loading for it, and it’s cheaper than reloading (if buying new brass).
I’ve also bought some Hornady Match 168gr ELD-M ammo to test when I get my rifle/barrel, if the barrel shoots the factory ammo ok then I’ll consider reloading with that bullet, otherwise 175 SMK or 168 TMKs will be on the cards.

Nice to know that the 150 Scenars are performing, not many people seem to run the 150-155.5gr bullets.
I imagine they’ll go ok in my barrel, will consider them if none of the other options work.
 
#22,363
beetroot said:
168gr SMKs is where I was going to start.

Have you tried 168gr ELD-Ms?
I was hoping they would go ok, but good to know the TMKs work.
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It depends on the length of the round. Run everything through the Applied Ballistics app to check bullet stability factor. There is a very real relationship between bullet velocity, bullet length, and bullet spin.

The twist rate of a rifle matters. And as far as I understand so far, ELD-Ms will not stabilize well in a 1:12 twist barrel due to the round being too long.
 
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#22,364
RedBreast21 said:
I wouldn't unless you're staying 700(ish) and in.

"The 168gr SMK out of a .308 is usually considered a 7-800yd bullet tops due to the instability during transonic and then subsonic speeds. There have been shots made longer but overall reliability for making longer distance hits goes way down after that 7-800yd range when compared to other available bullets." I pulled that from this website, but the same.exact.thing was told to me (by someone who is not new) very, very early on.

My .308 barrel is 1/10, but 150 Scenars are amazing to 1,000, but don't handle the transonic range (past 1,000) nearly as well as 175SMKs, but the 175SMKs don't do *quite* as well to 1,000.

That said, I love the 175smk, and IIRC it was designed for the 1/12 barrels (check me on that, but that's what I seem to recall).


TL/DR: Avoid 168SMKs unless you're only shooting to 600. 175SMKs are great and so are 150 scenars.
Click to expand...
This response is too generalized and doesn't account for how significant a 1:12 twist rotation will have a on a projectile.

Furthermore, 168gr TMKs and ELDs work just fine past 1000 yards.*

* At the right altitude, at the correct barometric pressure, with the right twist rate, bullet length, and velocity, which includes accounting for the barrel length.

Unless you go out and test with those factors in mind, it is speculation to say that a 168gr SMK won't reach past 600 yards, let alone 800 or 1000.
 
#22,367
RedBreast21 said:
I wouldn't unless you're staying 700(ish) and in.

"The 168gr SMK out of a .308 is usually considered a 7-800yd bullet tops due to the instability during transonic and then subsonic speeds. There have been shots made longer but overall reliability for making longer distance hits goes way down after that 7-800yd range when compared to other available bullets." I pulled that from this website, but the same.exact.thing was told to me (by someone who is not new) very, very early on.

My .308 barrel is 1/10, but 150 Scenars are amazing to 1,000, but don't handle the transonic range (past 1,000) nearly as well as 175SMKs, but the 175SMKs don't do *quite* as well to 1,000.

That said, I love the 175smk, and IIRC it was designed for the 1/12 barrels (check me on that, but that's what I seem to recall).


TL/DR: Avoid 168SMKs unless you're only shooting to 600. 175SMKs are great and so are 150 scenars.
Click to expand...
Try the Federal 168 grain Tactical Tip, it is so much better past 600 yards than the 168 grain SMK.
 
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#22,369
HKSniper11B said:
This response is too generalized and doesn't account for how significant a 1:12 twist rotation will have a on a projectile.

Furthermore, 168gr TMKs and ELDs work just fine past 1000 yards.*

* At the right altitude, at the correct barometric pressure, with the right twist rate, bullet length, and velocity, which includes accounting for the barrel length.

Unless you go out and test with those factors in mind, it is speculation to say that a 168gr SMK won't reach past 600 yards, let alone 800 or 1000.
Click to expand...
A 1:12 twist will exacerbate, not minimize the problem with the 168SMK (vs 1:10 or faster).

By all means, go and test but there's a boatload of data out there (including the explanation of why the 168 has problems (i.e. the boat tail design), and the fact that Sierra themselves developed the 169SMK with a different boat tail design (and I believe the TMK as well, but I need to consult my book).


Image 8.jpeg
 
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#22,370
To add some fuel to this fire i run 175 RDFs (1.33" long) through a 25" 1:12" barrel perfectly fine. In total I've probably run at least 1500-2000 of them through that barrel. Results have been 1/2 moa and often better. 3/5 on moa steel at 1000yrds the last match i ran it in. Wind is what got me on the 2 misses. RDFs are running 2700.
 
#22,371
FUNCTIONAL said:
To add some fuel to this fire i run 175 RDFs (1.33" long) through a 25" 1:12" barrel perfectly fine. In total I've probably run at least 1500-2000 of them through that barrel. Results have been 1/2 moa and often better. 3/5 on moa steel at 1000yrds the last match i ran it in. Wind is what got me on the 2 misses. RDFs are running 2700.
Click to expand...
I ran my original LW 1:12 twist for a long time. It was stellar with 175 grain SMKs. In some respects, I am sorry I sold it.
 
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#22,375
Dogtown said:
Burris Super Thermal XJS
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I don't pay much attention to the thermal optics market, so I believed him. Congrats, you got me.

The actual answer is a Teledyne-Flir HISS-XLR. (I'm just OCD enough to Google--> "Thermal Optics" --> Images until I found it).

https://willsoptics.com/product/fli...SlvVOmZrQz64lMs_Qi2dE1oy4Ylp8pD6E7gWv5H6Mywvp

It's safe to say that this is at best a consumer grade thermal scope - maybe one half step above airsoft grade. Definitely not for any serious shooting.
 
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#22,381
ReturnFire said:
Ballpark $?
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I had a once in a lifetime opportunity to get an MWIR ELR clip-on or buy a new truck. Trucks are always available, so I chose differently.

Edit: I don't want to derail this AI pic thread any further so this is the last I'll say about it: it's almost more useful as an ELR spotter.

qXO63f8.jpeg
 
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#22,386
Sorry to take the topic back to barrel twists.
Had some free time at work so decided to make a table for the bullet stability for ELD-M, SMK and TMK bullets.
Good news is that even at low speeds (2400fps like you might see in a short barrel) most projectiles are at least somewhat stable, but do definitely need to choose wisely if you want a fully stabilized projectile in a 1:12 twist barrel.

I then took the worst bullet I'd looked at (175gr TMK) and compared to a 1:10 and 1:11 twist.
Basically at any realistic velocity you are fine with a 1:11 twist or faster, obviously the heavier projectiles (180gr+) start becoming and issue but I had to stop somewhere. Maybe if I'm bored at work again I'll add more projectiles and twists.

TLDR is, don't buy a 1:12 twist barrel if you can help it.
 

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#22,388
beetroot said:
Sorry to take the topic back to barrel twists.
Had some free time at work so decided to make a table for the bullet stability for ELD-M, SMK and TMK bullets.
Good news is that even at low speeds (2400fps like you might see in a short barrel) most projectiles are at least somewhat stable, but do definitely need to choose wisely if you want a fully stabilized projectile in a 1:12 twist barrel.

I then took the worst bullet I'd looked at (175gr TMK) and compared to a 1:10 and 1:11 twist.
Basically at any realistic velocity you are fine with a 1:11 twist or faster, obviously the heavier projectiles (180gr+) start becoming and issue but I had to stop somewhere. Maybe if I'm bored at work again I'll add more projectiles and twists.

TLDR is, don't buy a 1:12 twist barrel if you can help it.
Click to expand...
Again, it isn't just about the bullet weight, but the bullet length as well that matters.

Plenty of folks ran the M40, M40A1, M40A3 and M40A5 out past 1000 yards just fine, which has a 1:12 twist barrel, and ran M118LR rounds, essentially Federal GMM SMK 175gr. I did reach out to a sniper instructor peer who has combat experience with the M40 rifles, who confirmed the distance and capability for me.

We also have @FUNCTIONAL with very direct experience running the M40. Sorry to call you out but it's important. Hell I want to share more of that shot data just as a solid reference...

There's no reason why the 1:12 Lothar Walther barrels aren't extremely capable. But, the right round needs to be chosen for it.

And so this circles right back to why I made my original post sharing the shot group: the Sierra 168gr TMK round with it's improved 9° boat tail seems to work best in this barrel, which I've so far tested in 20", and I have no doubt will perform equally well in my 24". My next range day I hope to get 300 round shot groups, and later, 700 round shot groups depending on wind.

I'll share all the images and data I have on this round. For us Yankees, the Federal GMM SMK 168gr & 175gr, and the Federal LE T308T 168gr, seem to be the most effective and cost conscious round to use in these barrels.

I don't have experience with Lapua or Berger rounds in these calibers, so I leave it to others to comment on what else shoots well. I invite it as this data is important for folks like us to have.

And yes, I read every single post in this forum regarding the Arctic Warfare and AT308 looking for ballistic data of factory rounds, and found excruciatingly little.

I hope the attached data helps for context. And I have much more data that shows how the length of Hornady rounds do not stabilize. I also tried the stability factor with a Berger 185gr round without success, but I'd entertain actually shooting it to see how it performs.

I don't understand how @hafejd30 is shooting 178gr ELD-X rounds. As far as I'm concerned, he's committing voodoo witchcraft as everything I have says that round should shoot like shit in a 1:12 barrel. But he's doing something right with his hand loads.

1000015005.jpg


Shot data simulates shooting in early March at Cameo Shooting Complex in Palisades, CO. USA
1000015081.jpg


1000015082.jpg


And my groupings again with the T308T 168gr TMK for good measure so everything is in one place:

1000015011.jpg
 
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#22,389
Dogtown said:
1/2” easy - 10 rounds all touching was the best so far.

109 LRHT
42gr N160
Alpha SRP Brass
CCI 450
2.84” COAL
2966 fps avg

As much as I like 6mmC, I hope to be able to get a 6.5x47L barrel at some point instead.
Click to expand...

I really only have that barrel should I want to throw a clip-on on there for coyotes. I might pop the 6.5 Creedmoor off here in a few hundred rounds and shoot the 6 for a while, we shall see.
 
#22,390
HKSniper11B said:
Again, it isn't just about the bullet weight, but the bullet length as well that matters.

Plenty of folks ran the M40, M40A1, M40A3 and M40A5 out past 1000 yards just fine, which has a 1:12 twist barrel, and ran M118LR rounds, essentially Federal GMM SMK 175gr. I did reach out to a sniper instructor peer who has combat experience with the M40 rifles, who confirmed the distance and capability for me.

We also have @FUNCTIONAL with very direct experience running the M40. Sorry to call you out but it's important. Hell I want to share more of that shot data just as a solid reference...

There's no reason why the 1:12 Lothar Walther barrels aren't extremely capable. But, the right round needs to be chosen for it.

And so this circles right back to why I made my original post sharing the shot group: the Sierra 168gr TMK round with it's improved 9° boat tail seems to work best in this barrel, which I've so far tested in 20", and I have no doubt will perform equally well in my 24". My next range day I hope to get 300 round shot groups, and later, 700 round shot groups depending on wind.

I'll share all the images and data I have on this round. For us Yankees, the Federal GMM SMK 168gr & 175gr, and the Federal LE T308T 168gr, seem to be the most effective and cost conscious round to use in these barrels.

I don't have experience with Lapua or Berger rounds in these calibers, so I leave it to others to comment on what else shoots well. I invite it as this data is important for folks like us to have.

And yes, I read every single post in this forum regarding the Arctic Warfare and AT308 looking for ballistic data of factory rounds, and found excruciatingly little.

I hope the attached data helps for context. And I have much more data that shows how the length of Hornady rounds do not stabilize. I also tried the stability factor with a Berger 185gr round without success, but I'd entertain actually shooting it to see how it performs.

I don't understand how @hafejd30 is shooting 178gr ELD-X rounds. As far as I'm concerned, he's committing voodoo witchcraft as everything I have says that round should shoot like shit in a 1:12 barrel. But he's doing something right with his hand loads.

View attachment 8639867

Shot data simulates shooting in early March at Cameo Shooting Complex in Palisades, CO. USA
View attachment 8639868

View attachment 8639869

And my groupings again with the T308T 168gr TMK for good measure so everything is in one place:

View attachment 8639871
Click to expand...
I just confirmed 100% it’s a 1:12. Has shot many groups under 1/2 moa. Always a hammer and always holds zero. Going on year 5 with my baby

I have a 18” 1:10 Bartlein ready to thread on when this one decides to go. But lots of life in it yet

Just breaking spring in the UP of Michigan so starting to sling lead more again

Gave me a chance to move the gun room over the winter. Loving the new setup
IMG_7318.jpeg
IMG_7319.jpeg
 
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#22,391
No worries @HKSniper11B I'm a big proponent of try it and see how it goes. Many hate the 175 RDF. When they saw my success with it a few guys tried and couldn't get it to shoot...I probably inherited 1k 175RDFs from people who just gave them to me after giving up. Likewise I have horrible luck with ELDM bullets.

Either way... going to do some experimenting after my 22lr match Saturday. Found 11 rounds of fgmm with 185 gr burgers. Going to sling them through my A5 with 1:12t and see what happens. If I have 175 or 168 fgmm I'll do a direct comparison.
20250313_214752.jpg



Edit. For reference it shoots good out of a 11.25t barrel. The middle group I'll chalk up to me screwing up.
20250313_215323.jpg
 
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#22,392
MK20 said:
Mine HATES the Hornady bullets.

I'm talking popping primers at starting loads hate for the Hornady bullets.

However, it loves the 175s at average velocity.
Click to expand...
My AT shot Hornady factory 175s 4in at 100yd.... I've never had ANY factory Hornady shoot well in my rifles. I did have one .6MOA 10-shot group at 600 with my 175SMK handloads so I seem to echo your experience.
 
#22,398
My barrel is a 1:12 LW AT. Started life at 26” and I was getting 2800 even from M118LR 175gr SMK.

I recently chopped it to 20” and spent a weekend plinking to 1 mile.

We put 200 rounds of 168gr Fed GMM and another 150 rounds of M118LR through it.

Both shot the same poi at 100m and there was only 20fps between the loads at the muzzle 2600 and 2580 respectively. Both shot extremely well at 100m with very small groups around 3/4” or better.

However as we started to increase the range the 175gr bullet started to shine in both wind deflection and ability to make impacts past 1000m. This shouldn’t come as a surprise to those of you who understand BC and the fundamentals of LR shooting.

The 168gr became very challenging at 900m and out. We struggled to get consistent impacts at 1000m and couldn’t land a single shot at 1100m.

The 175gr however was making impacts at 1200m with some regularity and was a breeze at 1100m. We also had a stab at the 1640m target and recorded 1 hit which I put down to pure luck as conditions were challenging at best (long grass and 5-15mph full value winds that regularly switch direction).

Next step is to load some lapua harass with 176 Atip match and see if we can compete with the 6.5 crowd at the next PRS match.

TPH
 

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