Low Recoil AR Load

[N_Turs]

Ok, first post in this section of the forum. I've been reloading 9mm for years with a dillon 650 no questions there got that down. But getting deeper into 2-gun pcsl type matches and Im looking to work up the lightest recoiling load possible for my match rifle. What do you all recommend using that will meter well in a dillion and be temp stable. I live in AZ so extreme temp swings are normal depending on the time of year. This load will not need to be accurate past 100yds. If I shoot a match at distance Ill just use some factory ammo until I start down the rabbit hole of accuracy.

I currently have dillon carbide dies in 223, still need to get the case trimmer to help process everything quickly. Ive snagged some powders, currently have varget, tac, n133 and stable match. Im thinking the stable match and varget will be saved for accurate loads later down the road but worry Tac might be to temp sensitive for a year round blaster load.

Feel free to talk shit of flame me I got think skin and its the interweb so I dont take offense to any of it.

Thanks for the help y'all I know this isnt really the style of shooting most people do here but this forum just seems to always produce excellent advice and info so Im sure one of you putos can point me in the right direction.

 

[Bacarrat]

Load for accuracy, 223 doesnt have that much recoil to begin with. If you are trying to load slow with a low powder charge you are going to be creating more issues and possibly run into pressure issues trying to go slow. Rifle loading isn't like pistol, you must have case fill.

 

[Will J]

Somewhat agree with the above. A good comp will help more than underpowered loads. Cheapest bullets are generally some form of 55gr FMJ, but you can reduce projectile weight to some degree and it will decrease felt recoil a tiny bit. Just roll with the starting charge weights in loading manuals. TAC is likely your best option for blasting ammo from what you listed. Just use a "starting" charge of TAC with a 55gr bullet and a decent comp and go play. You don't really need Benchrest/PRS level accuracy for carbine matches.

Decreasing charge weights too much will lead to failures to function as the gun gets dirty over the course of a match or 3. I tried running some cheap 35gr bullets with a low-ish charge of H335 and they ran great when the gun was all cleaned up. But as the crud started accumulating over the course of a match, I had a few failures after 4-5 stages. Loss of reliability isn't worth the tiny savings in "recoil" which as mentioned is pretty minimal in .223/5.56 anyway.

 

[N_Turs]

Somewhat agree with the above. A good comp will help more than underpowered loads. Cheapest bullets are generally some form of 55gr FMJ, but you can reduce projectile weight to some degree and it will decrease felt recoil a tiny bit. Just roll with the starting charge weights in loading manuals. TAC is likely your best option for blasting ammo from what you listed. Just use a "starting" charge of TAC with a 55gr bullet and a decent comp and go play. You don't really need Benchrest/PRS level accuracy for carbine matches.

Decreasing charge weights too much will lead to failures to function as the gun gets dirty over the course of a match or 3. I tried running some cheap 35gr bullets with a low-ish charge of H335 and they ran great when the gun was all cleaned up. But as the crud started accumulating over the course of a match, I had a few failures after 4-5 stages. Loss of reliability isn't worth the tiny savings in "recoil" which as mentioned is pretty minimal in .223/5.56 anyway.

Ok, This makes sense didnt realize the case fill was such a big deal. Guns already comped and shoots really flat tbh I just like messing with stuff and figured getting started loading blaster ammo on the 650 would be best before trying to load for accuracy. Maybe Ill try and find some 45gr bullets and do a min charge with tac and see how it does. Definitely dont want to loose any reliability. What type of failures were you seeing?

 

[BobinNC]

If your worried about temp stability think: H322, Benchmark, and Varget. Recoil is moderate with even heavy 5.56 loads.

24.5 grains of Benchmark and a good 52-55 grain bullet ( like Hornady's 53gr BTHP Match w/ Cannelure)
is an outstanding and accurate combo. They are not much more than the common 55 grain FMJ's and can be had at around .13 cents a piece in bulk.

 

[SD3Gunner]

Ok, first post in this section of the forum. I've been reloading 9mm for years with a dillon 650 no questions there got that down. But getting deeper into 2-gun pcsl type matches and Im looking to work up the lightest recoiling load possible for my match rifle. What do you all recommend using that will meter well in a dillion and be temp stable. I live in AZ so extreme temp swings are normal depending on the time of year. This load will not need to be accurate past 100yds. If I shoot a match at distance Ill just use some factory ammo until I start down the rabbit hole of accuracy.

I currently have dillon carbide dies in 223, still need to get the case trimmer to help process everything quickly. Ive snagged some powders, currently have varget, tac, n133 and stable match. Im thinking the stable match and varget will be saved for accurate loads later down the road but worry Tac might be to temp sensitive for a year round blaster load.

Feel free to talk shit of flame me I got think skin and its the interweb so I dont take offense to any of it.

Thanks for the help y'all I know this isnt really the style of shooting most people do here but this forum just seems to always produce excellent advice and info so Im sure one of you putos can point me in the right direction.

i like 55gr using Tac or H335 running 2700ish fps. has same 50yd poi as 77gr running about the same speed.

 

[Former Cav]

23.5 grains of Varget. Winchester small rifle primer, your brass, (I used NEW winchester brass for the 600 yard line), and I used a 77 grain sierra match king bullet. Since you are only shooting to 100 yards, I'd say you could use any reasonable quality 55 grain bullet.
and since 23.5 grains of Varget worked for 600 yards, I'm guessing you could use a lesser amount. Be sure you have enough to cycle the rifle. GOOD luck.
OF course, all disclaimers apply, Your rifle / chamber is different then mine. REDUCE all loads 10 percent and work your way back up.

 

[tekmann2377]

I have found that lightest recoiling AR loads have been with lighter bullets, and faster powders. A 40 Vmax with N133 will be extremely soft shooting. If you are concerned about reliability, you don't necessarily need to load a light charge, even heavier charges with the light bullet/fast powder combo will still be extremely soft.

Another favorable byproduct of this combination is that fairly stiff charge will generate plenty of gas for the muzzle brake to work, and further reduce recoil.

Varget and TAC are pretty slow burning to use with 55 gr or lower projectiles.

Benchmark and H322 are the most insensitive fast burning powders. N133 is more so, but the N1** series VV powders were formulated to be less temp sensitive and I doubt this would actually be an issue for you.

 

[Will J]

Ok, This makes sense didnt realize the case fill was such a big deal. Guns already comped and shoots really flat tbh I just like messing with stuff and figured getting started loading blaster ammo on the 650 would be best before trying to load for accuracy. Maybe Ill try and find some 45gr bullets and do a min charge with tac and see how it does. Definitely dont want to loose any reliability. What type of failures were you seeing?

Seemed like just wasn't enough pressure to keep the gun cycling reliably. Guessing it just wasnt pushing the bolt hard enough and maybe short stroking a tad so losing vigor in ejection and chambering next round fully. Just wasnt enough gas/pressure to make it run consistently.

 

[RegionRat]

I just like messing with stuff and figured getting started loading blaster ammo on the 650 would be best before trying to load for accuracy.

Try thinking about this in reverse...

If you know a good recipe first, then being able to mass produce it with a progressive is yet another challenge.
The best powders for temp stability are usually not ball powders, and as such they tend to be extruded single base which also implies that they are not as easy to run through an automatic powder drop.
When thinking about an AR, you have the added burden of satisfying the gas system to keep the feed and function reliable as the first priority.

On the other hand, up to 300 yards it really doesn't take sophisticated ammo to hold inside the X, so unless you are needing ammo that runs less than 0.5 MOA, it isn't hard to feed an AR with your Dillon. YMMV
Good Luck.

 

[fedupflyer]

Is loading for non-match grade 223/556 even worth it right now?
Primers are three time the price and powder is at least 50% higher.
I just purchased a case of PMC 55g for less than $0.40 / rnd.

 

[Bacarrat]

Is loading for non-match grade 223/556 even worth it right now?
Primers are three time the price and powder is at least 50% higher.
I just purchased a case of PMC 55g for less than $0.40 / rnd.

This is the reason why I don't load blasting ammo.

 

[N_Turs]

Is loading for non-match grade 223/556 even worth it right now?
Primers are three time the price and powder is at least 50% higher.
I just purchased a case of PMC 55g for less than $0.40 / rnd.

Yeah I understand that, I've been able to pick up some bulk ammo for .38 a round. Totally understand the cost savings isn't there my thought was just to be able to load a lighter recoiling round and get some experience loading rifle ammo before getting to accurate loads. Maybe I just have it ass backwards and the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

 

[N_Turs]

Try thinking about this in reverse...

If you know a good recipe first, then being able to mass produce it with a progressive is yet another challenge.
The best powders for temp stability are usually not ball powders, and as such they tend to be extruded single base which also implies that they are not as easy to run through an automatic powder drop.
When thinking about an AR, you have the added burden of satisfying the gas system to keep the feed and function reliable as the first priority.

On the other hand, up to 300 yards it really doesn't take sophisticated ammo to hold inside the X, so unless you are needing ammo that runs less than 0.5 MOA, it isn't hard to feed an AR with your Dillon. YMMV
Good Luck.

Right now the rifle is running on very little gas as it is. I run a ti carrier and adjustable gas block got it chocked out pretty well. My thought was with the lighter mass bolt I should be able to get reliable cycling with a low power load. Maybe not tho... Only reason I was looking to go down this path first is because Im on the wait list for the Ingenuity system. My plan was to get that and use the 650 but manually dump the powder from the Ingenuity. Maybe Im off my rocker on that too.

 

[N_Turs]

I have found that lightest recoiling AR loads have been with lighter bullets, and faster powders. A 40 Vmax with N133 will be extremely soft shooting. If you are concerned about reliability, you don't necessarily need to load a light charge, even heavier charges with the light bullet/fast powder combo will still be extremely soft.

Another favorable byproduct of this combination is that fairly stiff charge will generate plenty of gas for the muzzle brake to work, and further reduce recoil.

Varget and TAC are pretty slow burning to use with 55 gr or lower projectiles.

Benchmark and H322 are the most insensitive fast burning powders. N133 is more so, but the N1** series VV powders were formulated to be less temp sensitive and I doubt this would actually be an issue for you.

Im gonna get some light ass bullets and see what I can come up with.

 

[Bantam1]

26 grains of Win 748 over a 55 grain FMJ is very soft shooting and still has enough gas to run the gun for a cheap easy metering load.

 

[RegionRat]

My plan was to get that and use the 650 but manually dump the powder from the Ingenuity. Maybe Im off my rocker on that too.

Not at all. Many of us run a progressive using a funnel to add the charges from a far more accurate powder measure.

Be patient and give yourself a chance to learn the ropes on loading. Working with an experienced mentor is still the fastest and efficient way to climb the learning curve.

Most times, any club that competes will have folks who will adopt you and get you up to speed with a lot less grief than you will experience on your own.

With your AR loading, when there is a need to run at magazine length and have accuracy at distance (over 300 yards), then take your time and try the known Pet Loads for starters and then see where you can deviate once you have some experience. Up to 300, you can run any of the decent bullets, but to go out to say 600, try something like the 69 or 77 SMK with Varget just to make it an easy start.

Getting a sub MOA group at ranges past 300 yards from an AR15, means you have to make decent ammo and also be able to shoot well. Most beginners learn that getting a group at 300 isn't too difficult, but then getting the SD down and being able to work your way out to 600 will be a little slower. Give yourself a little time to get some brass reload cycles under your belt. Good Luck and enjoy the ride.

 

[mtrmn]

55 gr bullet, 24.5 gr TAC

 

[Former Cav]

well, I loaded 24.5 grains of Varget, 77 sierra match kings (80 SMK's for the 600 yard line), small standard winchester primers, LC Brass and I was starting to use NEW winchester brass for the 600 yard line. Loaded these up on a dillon 550 and NEVER had a problem doing the NRA across the course 200, 300, and 600 yard lines. Standard DPMS rifle with a 1 in 7 twist barrel, iron sights.

 

[Shoots 700's]

You keep harping about low / less recoil. You are shooting one of the lowest recoiling rounds around. No reason to keep fooling around for the hell of it.

 

[Aftermath]

Low recoil 22 cal round? Isn't that a 22 SHORT? Or 22 LONG? Or 22 Long Rifle? or 22 WMR?

 

[MO Fugga]

Low recoil 22 cal round? Isn't that a 22 SHORT? Or 22 LONG? Or 22 Long Rifle? or 22 WMR?

Finding primers for those are a real bitch I hear.

 

[Aftermath]

Finding primers for those are a real bitch I hear.

I once had a fairly deep discussion with my brother. He wanted to reload 5.56 with a 40 grain slug traveling about 1000 fps. You know, sub-sonic. I listened and helped him research powders and such and when he finally thought he had it all figured out, I showed him a cardboard from 22LR. 40 grains at 1050 fps. All day if you do your part.

 

[joe777]

A light buffer will make a difference too

 

[Former Cav]

you know, when you get involved in various "matches" where you are using LIGHT loads, you are setting yourself up for failure.
What is the purpose of the matches? training? bragging rights?
The lightest load I'd shoot in that 100 yard match is the cheap factory loads that are 55 grain ball unless they have "requirements" that specify something else.
You aren't going to use "those target loads" for DEFENSE I hope.
That 55 grain load from 1968 left a LOT TO BE DESIRED when it came to putting down the enemy!! I was there and experienced it first hand.

 

[Doom]

@N_Turs, I wasn't familiar with the style of matches you were referring to but after looking them up they mirror some of our action shooting local matches. I am not sure exactly why you are so hung up on low recoil. It's one thing to look for low recoil due to physical impairment but if it's strictly for followup shot management I think you are looking at the wrong solution to a fundamental marksmanship issue. The AR by its very design is a light rifle and being a semi automatic has a fairly large amount of moving mass that contributes to the overall recoil. You can only reduce the recoil so much due to components as there are only limited choices and with your ammunition you have to maintain a safe load which will insure that the rifle functions properly. You must avoid any function issues or possible squib loads. Accuracy of the load is not critical if the distances are less than 50 yards.

I would try and find a varmint bullet in the 55 gr range to keep the cost low and have a good functioning bullet for the AR. I would use a varmint bullet instead of a FMJ because the have a lower tendency to ricochet. Open up your gas system to keep the ejection pattern in the 4 o'clock region. Load to the lowest charge that functions well in your rifle. I wouldn't go lower than 50 gr bullets.

Of the powders you mention I can't comment on how they will vary in terms of felt recoil since so much of the AR felt recoil is a function of the bolt movement. I think that you are worrying about something that won't be an issue with TAC. Temperature sensitivity isn't going to be an issue unless you are loading near maximum loads or leaving your ammunition in the sun. If that is an issue then I would look at single based powders. To minimize the powder/contribution to recoil I would consider my powder options by choosing the powders by looking at the powders that have the lowest charge weight at maximum (yes, max load) load. This is likely to give the lowest contribution to total recoil for your selected load.

 

[N_Turs]

A light buffer will make a difference too

Guns built about as light as it can get in regards to the buffer.

 

[N_Turs]

you know, when you get involved in various "matches" where you are using LIGHT loads, you are setting yourself up for failure.
What is the purpose of the matches? training? bragging rights?
The lightest load I'd shoot in that 100 yard match is the cheap factory loads that are 55 grain ball unless they have "requirements" that specify something else.
You aren't going to use "those target loads" for DEFENSE I hope.
That 55 grain load from 1968 left a LOT TO BE DESIRED when it came to putting down the enemy!! I was there and experienced it first hand.

Where did I say I wanted to use them for self defense? And yes bragging rights, Im not a door kicker and any "Training" is just to get better at the shooting that I do. Unlike some I do not pretend to be an operator or have imaginary thoughts of how I will be using my rifle in a defensive situation. Clearly you don't shoot the run and gun matches. You know alot of people down load 9mm for steel challenge, kinda was just looking to see if others have done the same in 223/556.

 

[Gavef]

Ok, first post in this section of the forum. I've been reloading 9mm for years with a dillon 650 no questions there got that down. But getting deeper into 2-gun pcsl type matches and Im looking to work up the lightest recoiling load possible for my match rifle. What do you all recommend using that will meter well in a dillion and be temp stable. I live in AZ so extreme temp swings are normal depending on the time of year. This load will not need to be accurate past 100yds. If I shoot a match at distance Ill just use some factory ammo until I start down the rabbit hole of accuracy.

I currently have dillon carbide dies in 223, still need to get the case trimmer to help process everything quickly. Ive snagged some powders, currently have varget, tac, n133 and stable match. Im thinking the stable match and varget will be saved for accurate loads later down the road but worry Tac might be to temp sensitive for a year round blaster load.

Feel free to talk shit of flame me I got think skin and its the interweb so I dont take offense to any of it.

Thanks for the help y'all I know this isnt really the style of shooting most people do here but this forum just seems to always produce excellent advice and info so Im sure one of you putos can point me in the right direction.

TAC's decent, but N133 might be your best bet for low recoil and consistency. Give it a shot.

 

[Former Cav]

heh heh,, my days of run and gun and kicking down doors are LONG gone. I got to kick down doors during TET of 68 in Cholon (Chinese part of Saigon). Only matches I did was NRA highpower Across the Course, and Palma, and Bowling pin matches with my 1911. I can't run due to my combat injuries. Had a lot of fun. Then of course there was hunting.
A friend here who is a lot younger then me told me about being in IPSC and he said he used his full house loads to improve his skills,
He wasn't looking to be "number one" in the match. That is what I did with the NRA stuff. Improve your own skills.
GOOD LUCK. I'm happy you are aware of not using the light loads for defense.

 

[N_Turs]

@N_Turs, I wasn't familiar with the style of matches you were referring to but after looking them up they mirror some of our action shooting local matches. I am not sure exactly why you are so hung up on low recoil. It's one thing to look for low recoil due to physical impairment but if it's strictly for followup shot management I think you are looking at the wrong solution to a fundamental marksmanship issue. The AR by its very design is a light rifle and being a semi automatic has a fairly large amount of moving mass that contributes to the overall recoil. You can only reduce the recoil so much due to components as there are only limited choices and with your ammunition you have to maintain a safe load which will insure that the rifle functions properly. You must avoid any function issues or possible squib loads. Accuracy of the load is not critical if the distances are less than 50 yards.

I would try and find a varmint bullet in the 55 gr range to keep the cost low and have a good functioning bullet for the AR. I would use a varmint bullet instead of a FMJ because the have a lower tendency to ricochet. Open up your gas system to keep the ejection pattern in the 4 o'clock region. Load to the lowest charge that functions well in your rifle. I wouldn't go lower than 50 gr bullets.

Of the powders you mention I can't comment on how they will vary in terms of felt recoil since so much of the AR felt recoil is a function of the bolt movement. I think that you are worrying about something that won't be an issue with TAC. Temperature sensitivity isn't going to be an issue unless you are loading near maximum loads or leaving your ammunition in the sun. If that is an issue then I would look at single based powders. To minimize the powder/contribution to recoil I would consider my powder options by choosing the powders by looking at the powders that have the lowest charge weight at maximum (yes, max load) load. This is likely to give the lowest contribution to total recoil for your selected load.

I understand that the gun still needs to function, Currently its set up with the lights carrier and buffer comp possible and the gas is turned way down. I don't think there's anything else to be done to reduce the mass any further. I currently have never had any issues with keeping it running using factor 55gr loads. I was just looking to possibly make a "gamer load" similar to what people do in steel challenge when power factor isn't an issue. Thank you for the recommendation on powder selection.

 

[N_Turs]

heh heh,, my days of run and gun and kicking down doors are LONG gone. I got to kick down doors during TET of 68 in Cholon (Chinese part of Saigon). Only matches I did was NRA highpower Across the Course, and Palma, and Bowling pin matches with my 1911. I can't run due to my combat injuries. Had a lot of fun. Then of course there was hunting.
A friend here who is a lot younger then me told me about being in IPSC and he said he used his full house loads to improve his skills,
He wasn't looking to be "number one" in the match. That is what I did with the NRA stuff. Improve your own skills.
GOOD LUCK. I'm happy you are aware of not using the light loads for defense.

I actually practice most of the time with a 9mm ar because the recoil impulse is greater then my match rifle.

 

[N_Turs]

Low recoil 22 cal round? Isn't that a 22 SHORT? Or 22 LONG? Or 22 Long Rifle? or 22 WMR?

Yeah I got a JP Ar22 for the kiddos, If they let me shoot that in these matches I would but has to be a center fire.

 

[Doom]

heh heh,, my days of run and gun and kicking down doors are LONG gone. I got to kick down doors during TET of 68 in Cholon (Chinese part of Saigon).

Thank you for your service. I am a few years behind you so I ended up not serving but certainly respect those who did.