India vs Pakistan
- Thread starter 232593
- Start date
Even with the technology we had in the 1980s, we would not have fought the Iraq-Iran War like that.
Neither side had any D/SEAD capability to speak of, let alone matured electronic order of battle collection and exploitation capes.
Neither side had US cruise missiles, decoy missiles, satellites, and high altitude reconnaissance.
They would have been pummeled and attrited rapidly, with US establishing air superiority very quickly, followed by D/SEAD against SAM and AAA, in-parallel with deep strikes against airfields and C3 nodes by F-111F and A-6Es.
We simply don’t fight like other nations because they never invested in the type of force structure we have, because they can’t afford one like us.
Because all the best and brightest from all over the world and all the most motivated and driven from all over the world have been coming here for hundreds of years and America is unique in history and unique among nations.
Our very unique political system and combination of laws and religion and social structure let us advance faster and farther than anyone else ever did in the history of the world.
Our army is the best in history BECAUSE our country is unique in history and the BEST civilization for rapid advancement that there has ever been.
This is another great example where the quality of information sources is exposed.Reports Of Huge India-Pakistan Jet Dogfight; Blackout Across Jammu & Kashmir | ZeroHedge
ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zerowww.zerohedge.com
There are no dogfights anymore, and haven’t been for at least 30 years even with 4th Gen fighters.
In this dust-up, apparently none of the fighters crossed the border, meaning the weapons reach of both air-to-surface and air-to-air were long enough to not require it. In the Feb 2019 India-Paki excrement match, a MiG-21 Bison was shot down and crashed inside Pakistan, with its pilot ejecting and captured by Pakistan, later returned to India.
PL-15E outranges the Russian monkey model RVV-AE, which is what India was firing at Pakistani F-16s and J-17s in 2019.
AIM-120C5 out-sticked the RVV-AE and took down the MiG-21 Bison.
Nobody even flew into Helmet-cued High Off-Boresight (HOBS) missile parameters, which are a mutual-kill scenario since both sides have them. This is the old Python-4 H-HOBS IR missile, for example:
People in the fighter weapons community have been talking about this for decades now, including senior instructors from Fighter Weapons Schools. If you somehow survive the AESA Radar, IRST, and Active Seeker BVR Missile fight, you will regret entering the Helmet-Cued IR all-aspect missile fight.
Old AIM-9X testing:
The latest Helmet-Cued all-aspect missiles have lock-after-launch capability with data-link targeting, so it’s even worse than people imagine. The most lethal fighters with Helmet HOBS and extremely low IR signatures are F-35s, which aren’t going to allow you to get near them anyway.
If you’re still screwing around with 4.5 Gen fighters and no 5th Gen support, it will be like this what we see with Pakistan vs India.
Last edited:
It also helps to have the most connected river network in the world, in a temperate zone, with tons of deep sea ports across 4 major coastlines, vast resources in minerals, agriculture, and farmland, with no regional military threats.
There simply is no geographic peer to the US.
This is another great example where the quality of information sources is exposed.
There are no dogfights anymore, and haven’t been for at least 30 years even with 4th Gen fighters.
In this dust-up, apparently none of the fighters crossed the border, meaning the weapons reach of both air-to-surface and air-to-air were long enough to not require it. In the Feb 2019 India-Paki excrement match, a MiG-21 Bison was shot down and crashed inside Pakistan, with its pilot ejecting and captured by Pakistan, later returned to India.
PL-15E outranges the Russian monkey model RVV-AE, which is what India was firing at Pakistani F-16s and J-17s in 2019.
AIM-120C5 out-sticked the RVV-AE and took down the MiG-21 Bison.
Nobody even flew into Helmet-cued High Off-Boresight (HOBS) missile parameters, which are a mutual-kill scenario since both sides have them. This is the old Python-4 H-HOBS IR missile, for example:
People in the fighter weapons community have been talking about this for decades now, including senior instructors from Fighter Weapons Schools. If you somehow survive the AESA Radar, IRST, and Active Seeker BVR Missile fight, you will regret entering the Helmet-Cued IR all-aspect missile fight.
Old AIM-9X testing:
The latest Helmet-Cued all-aspect missiles have lock-after-launch capability with data-link targeting, so it’s even worse that people imagine. The most lethal fighters with Helmet HOBS and extremely low IR signatures are F-35s, which aren’t going to allow you to get near them anyway.
If you’re still screwing around with 4.5 Gen fighters and no 5th Gen support, it will be like this what we see with Pakistan vs India.
good points, but i think they were aware that the term was used loosely to describe an aerial engagement.
they even put the term in quotes.
Wall Street guys are painfully-ignorant about modern aerospace systems, but some invest in being briefed from a financial standpoint on where to buy and sell stocks. They have no way of vetting the information themselves because they aren’t technically-savvy, and have no real reps in studying the history of technical progression in that space.
Either way, the lessons learned the hard way by countries who only have access to 4th Gen will be continually-painful, and since hardly any of the legacy major FMS export countries invested in 5th gen tech, it places the US as a sole-source provider in the aerospace defense market for the technology.
The Euros window-dressed their 1970s designs for the past 40 years, and didn’t even go into IOC with them until the 2000s, same as F-22A. Instead of recognizing the massive disparity, they continued to lie to themselves about the relevance of 4.5 Gen with upgrades, downplay the 5th Gen advancements as “Lockheed marketing terms”, while deluding their air forces and customers into thinking they had something special. They even priced themselves at 2x of F-35A, which is insane.
This was 2019 (Russia has reduced its air forces inventory to 1200):
So now you have:
I. US manufacturing 5th Gen in high rates (1170 F-35s so far, 195 F-22s), 4.5 Gen finishing up or being upgraded to higher standards, going into 6th Gen fighter production and down-select for USAF and USN (F-47 and F/A-XX USN) and open stealth bomber production (B-21A)
II. China manufacturing J-20 5th Gen, 4.5 Gen Sino-Flankers, prototyping more 5th Gen (J-35) and their attempts at 6th Gen
III. France manufacturing 4.5 Gen at very low rate production (~300 made so far since 1986)
IV. UK/Germany/Italy/Spain manufacturing 4.5 Gen in low rate (609 since 1986)
V. Russia manufacturing imitation 5th Gen and 4.5 Gen at extremely low rates (Su-57 only ~38 airframes maybe, 151+ Su-35s)
The global military aerospace & defense sector has undergone dramatic shifts in reduction of mass production from the legacy countries who dominated that space, aside from the US.
China is actively focused on their own military strategy, so 5th Gen are prioritized to the PLAAF right now, not FMS. France got moved to 2nd-largest FMS exporter over Russia, only because Russia dropped its production numbers so significantly.
Remember Russia used to crank out MiGs by the thousands, and France cranked out Mirages by the thousands for FMS from the 1950s-1980s.
Either way, the lessons learned the hard way by countries who only have access to 4th Gen will be continually-painful, and since hardly any of the legacy major FMS export countries invested in 5th gen tech, it places the US as a sole-source provider in the aerospace defense market for the technology.
The Euros window-dressed their 1970s designs for the past 40 years, and didn’t even go into IOC with them until the 2000s, same as F-22A. Instead of recognizing the massive disparity, they continued to lie to themselves about the relevance of 4.5 Gen with upgrades, downplay the 5th Gen advancements as “Lockheed marketing terms”, while deluding their air forces and customers into thinking they had something special. They even priced themselves at 2x of F-35A, which is insane.
This was 2019 (Russia has reduced its air forces inventory to 1200):
So now you have:
I. US manufacturing 5th Gen in high rates (1170 F-35s so far, 195 F-22s), 4.5 Gen finishing up or being upgraded to higher standards, going into 6th Gen fighter production and down-select for USAF and USN (F-47 and F/A-XX USN) and open stealth bomber production (B-21A)
II. China manufacturing J-20 5th Gen, 4.5 Gen Sino-Flankers, prototyping more 5th Gen (J-35) and their attempts at 6th Gen
III. France manufacturing 4.5 Gen at very low rate production (~300 made so far since 1986)
IV. UK/Germany/Italy/Spain manufacturing 4.5 Gen in low rate (609 since 1986)
V. Russia manufacturing imitation 5th Gen and 4.5 Gen at extremely low rates (Su-57 only ~38 airframes maybe, 151+ Su-35s)
The global military aerospace & defense sector has undergone dramatic shifts in reduction of mass production from the legacy countries who dominated that space, aside from the US.
China is actively focused on their own military strategy, so 5th Gen are prioritized to the PLAAF right now, not FMS. France got moved to 2nd-largest FMS exporter over Russia, only because Russia dropped its production numbers so significantly.
Remember Russia used to crank out MiGs by the thousands, and France cranked out Mirages by the thousands for FMS from the 1950s-1980s.
Neither side wants to tick off the US, but we also have to be aware of Chinese and Russian interference.
Remember Yuri Bezmenov? He was stationed in India by the KGB as part of their ideological warfare efforts there. Indian media has been infiltrated and shaped by Russian IO for generations, because India is Russia’s largest FMS customer.
China didn’t like Trump supplanting legacy US-China trade deals with India, so the Pakis may very well be right in saying they didn’t execute the terrorist attack. That could have been a Chinese false flag operation giving attribution to Pakistan, so that India would retaliate and the predictable subsequent events happened to destabilize India and foreign investors for a bit.
We went from, “Yay, let’s move factories to India from China!” to,
“Woah, look at that fireball!"
It’s very Sun Tzu and requires almost no effort from China, with massive results in their favor.
Remember Yuri Bezmenov? He was stationed in India by the KGB as part of their ideological warfare efforts there. Indian media has been infiltrated and shaped by Russian IO for generations, because India is Russia’s largest FMS customer.
China didn’t like Trump supplanting legacy US-China trade deals with India, so the Pakis may very well be right in saying they didn’t execute the terrorist attack. That could have been a Chinese false flag operation giving attribution to Pakistan, so that India would retaliate and the predictable subsequent events happened to destabilize India and foreign investors for a bit.
We went from, “Yay, let’s move factories to India from China!” to,
“Woah, look at that fireball!"
It’s very Sun Tzu and requires almost no effort from China, with massive results in their favor.
If I was China, it’s exactly what I would have done, because I know that nobody would call me out on it or could prove it.
I’m sorry I replied to the wrong thread. I meant to reply to the one immediately before it. What I meant was war between India and Pakistan would be like the Iran-Iraq war. Neither side really being effective in the air and a typical ground war.
Will the conflict in Ukraine provide a catalyst for Russia to mitigate this capability gap?
They’re already trying to establish expanded domestic semiconductor manufacturing infrastructure, since Su-57 requires substantially more SC elements than pretty much any fighter they’ve made before:
They placed side-looking AESAs in the nose instead of doing a rotating swashplate like on Su-35. This and all the embedded RF sensors in the airframe increases the Transmitting/Receiving element counts considerably, which requires a ton of manufacturing capacity in a space Russia has always struggled with industrially. They have resorted to heavy importation of breast pumps and washing machines, game consoles, etc, to remove the Western chips and then re-purpose them for military guidance systems.
It’s a very bad position to be in, since their main domestic SC company went bankrupt in Dec of 2018, and since then....Baikal and Angstrom have also gone bankrupt.
China has been providing SC chips to them through smuggling of shipments due to sanctions, but they really need modern chip mfg capacity to fulfill the orders for Su-57, S-400, and other combat systems computing, sensor, and guidance requirements.
It’s one thing to design a sensor-clustered 5th Gen fighter, and another to actually have the parts and subcomponents supply capacity under security clearance personnel and tight supply lines.
Either way, they are limited to extremely-low rate production of the Su-57, which does not have comparable VLO features to US 5th Gen, or even Chinese J-20. The J-20 is much cleaner and appears to have more modern Radar Absorbent Structures and RAM.
Ever since Russia and France ceased designing, developing, and producing single-engine fighters at-scale, their FMS export potential had built-in restrictions that they can’t recover from any time soon.
As the prospective customers witness their lackluster performance in contested airspaces, orders will decrease.
The contractors will spin this to highlight their achievements of course (Rafales successfully launched SCALP cruise missiles that Pakistan was unable to intercept with Chinese A2AD systems), but everyone with Rafales right now is looking at their inventory and orders and realizing they don’t have any prospects of true air superiority against regional rivals.
That includes the French Armée de l’air. Their tactical relevance in the A2A space is really dependent on US 5th Gen technology right now, which is why they continue to do Atlantic Trident with us and the UK:
As the prospective customers witness their lackluster performance in contested airspaces, orders will decrease.
The contractors will spin this to highlight their achievements of course (Rafales successfully launched SCALP cruise missiles that Pakistan was unable to intercept with Chinese A2AD systems), but everyone with Rafales right now is looking at their inventory and orders and realizing they don’t have any prospects of true air superiority against regional rivals.
That includes the French Armée de l’air. Their tactical relevance in the A2A space is really dependent on US 5th Gen technology right now, which is why they continue to do Atlantic Trident with us and the UK:
All the above is true but would be worthless without:
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain un alienable rights, and that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Desert Storm, though it was really a combination of battle-focused training, advanced tech, and IPB.
Desert Storm was the most decisive military campaign of the 20th Century in my perspective, as it culminated with advancements in these areas, resulting in brutally-swift and decisive defeat of one of the biggest air forces and armies of the world (4th largest at the time).
Something like that had never been done before, and it set a tone for how future conflict would be conducted. Firstly, our primary adversaries would not engage us in FSCO because they aren’t stupid. 2nd, they would conduct asymmetric actions against the US using Islamic radicals and Islamic nation Intelligence Services to strike the US with large and coordinated terrorist attacks, with blame placed on dead-end regions of the world with zero military or industrial value (Afghanistan).
While the US was tied-up in a wasteful war in a land-locked excrement receptacle, China and Russia would try to modernize their high value combat systems. Russia aimed and missed, China made much more impactful strides, which is why they are the spacing threat.
Looks like the the entertainment was just fucked up by the Trumpster
Damn you, Trump and Rubio....
I wanted to see these fucking savages glass each other.
I had syrup riding on this shit.
Sirhr
Fear not…
Post in thread 'India vs Pakistan'
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/india-vs-pakistan.7255539/post-12145702
Desert Storm, though it was really a combination of battle-focused training, advanced tech, and IPB.
Desert Storm was the most decisive military campaign of the 20th Century in my perspective, as it culminated with advancements in these areas, resulting in brutally-swift and decisive defeat of one of the biggest air forces and armies of the world (4th largest at the time).
Something like that had never been done before, and it set a tone for how future conflict would be conducted. Firstly, our primary adversaries would not engage us in FSCO because they aren’t stupid. 2nd, they would conduct asymmetric actions against the US using Islamic radicals and Islamic nation Intelligence Services to strike the US with large and coordinated terrorist attacks, with blame placed on dead-end regions of the world with zero military or industrial value (Afghanistan).
While the US was tied-up in a wasteful war in a land-locked excrement receptacle, China and Russia would try to modernize their high value combat systems. Russia aimed and missed, China made much more impactful strides, which is why they are the spacing threat.
That fucking place smelled like pork BBQ, burned hair and massive amounts of looted Chanel Perfume. Those fuckers were stealing everything that was not nailed down. Or so I am told...
Fucking savages deserved to be BRRRRRRRRRRRRRT'd
Sirhr
We did not hire those fucks to kill our entertainment, did we?
absolutely. i view our neocons that want to force their vision of America on the world at the point of a bomb as the real traitors. they show no faith in our system and think they are justified in forcing it into places that don't want it and where it will never work. this,of course,to their own enrichment,empowerment and aggrandizement. these same leaches neglect our defense at home and turn a blind eye to possible domestic maintenance and improvements. they profit in all those ways by "protecting" those who won't handle their own defense. but,but we have to stop-fill in a boogey man-from advancing and taking over X,Y,Z and living in a way that doesn't profit 'us".
they are the traitors that undermine the system that our founders envisioned for our country. they yell about America 1st and everything they do puts them 1st and F everything else.
I am so shocked! Those clowns cannot be relied upon to use indoor toilets. It’s like expecting civil interactions from Central Africans.
besides the fact that they both have nucs,who cares? a terrorist org or 2 might lose some support,we could lose some call centers,we might have to start training Americans as doctors again. what else? this getting in the middle of the foreign wars we manage to not send troops to is a distraction and an expense from the concentration on our problems. we have many of those including at least 2 internal wars.
Desert Storm was a disaster and should never have happened.
McCafferey was responsible for that mess above, and should have been hanged for it.
GHWB was bought and paid for by the Terror Kingdom of Saudi Arabia because they transformed him into an Oil Man and made him very rich. He helped them go totalitarian within the region and spread their power beyond- by sponsoring extremist ideologies that could also be exported to make trouble for our enemies (Rooskie Animals).
The sanctions that followed doubled infant mortality and gave the world a tangible example of Western Evil. Saddam was forced to launch the "Faith Campaign" to keep the people united and the Ba'ath Party had new priorities. The Iranians knew he was on his ass militarily, so he had to bluff up his WMDs to keep them from crossing the border again. Oil-for-Food was a literal scam. "Smart" Bombs... Kuwait, Saudi, Qatar as the new Korea... etc...
If we actually helped restore the 19th province and spread secular Ba'athist ideology, 9/11 never would have happened because the Gulf Terror Kingdoms would have been steam rolled, and you could go there and drink beer and watch soccer on vacation today. Gas would be under a dollar, and the J-state would have ceased their atrocities back in the days of rotary phones, or ceased to exist under a rain of SCUDs.
The important part is weapons carry , that is the huge advantage of gen5 ,yes DSI helps but not a game changer ,Rafale like Superhornet fanboys have been spewing nonsense for years , naked plane head on RCS , is only seen on airshows , combat loads look like this and have a RCS many times that of base aircraft , SU57 even tough it never went for full stealth still carries weapons inside so is magnitudes lower in RCS .
But to be fair Indians got a bit carried away they ran offensive ops against Pakistani insurgent/terror groups and bases, without gaining air superiorty or suppresing radars and SAM, Political pressure probably played a role . Pakistanis played defense and all their Fighters went up with pure Air to Air loadouts, that alone made their game easyer , and they made good use of new long range chinese missiles they bought
According to PAF press conference
00:10 HRS – PAF detected IAF fighters mobilising near LoC in northern and central sectors.
00:12 HRS – PAF initiated pre-planned contingency measures within 2 minutes.
00:23 HRS – Pakistani aircraft on Defensive Counter Air (DCA) missions were scrambled.
00:30 HRS – IAF completed 4-axis offensive formation near LoC. Initial force: 60 aircraft (including 14 Rafale), later reinforced to 72 aircraft.
00:37 HRS – PAF DCA fighters engaged IAF incursions. Pakistan deployed 42 forward aircraft to defend airspace and civilian flights were evacuated from suspected combat zones.
Changing rules of engagement: After the Indian Air Force used air-to-ground weapons, the Pakistan Air Force chief ordered a switch from deterrence to lethal engagement. “As India endlessly boasted about the superiority of the Rafale, we prioritized targeting them – hence their disproportionate losses,” the briefing said.
PAF claimed 6 confirmed victories against IAF (Figure 2):
Mig-29: 38 km 243° from Srinagar (~15 km to LoC)
Su-30MKI: 35 km 192° from Srinagar (~46 km to LoC)
Rafale: 77 km 144° from Srinagar (100 km to LoC)
Drone: 30 km 342° from Jammu (~35 km to LoC)
Rafale: 24 km 114° from Jammu (~13 km to LoC)
Rafale: 46 km 288° from Bhatinda (~42.6 km to border)
I don't watch soccer at home. Why the hell would I want to watch it in the cat litter box?
The roasted goat is pretty fucking good though.
Yes & two 22lr projs behind the correct ears or into the eyes from distance would have prevented it all,... but that puts no money into the MIC.
The important part is weapons carry , that is the huge advantage of gen5 ,yes DSI helps but not a game changer ,Rafale like Superhornet fanboys have been spewing nonsense for years , naked plane head on RCS , is only seen on airshows , combat loads look like this and have a RCS many times that of base aircraft , SU57 even tough it never went for full stealth still carries weapons inside so is magnitudes lower in RCS .
But to be fair Indians got a bit carried away they ran offensive ops against Pakistani insurgent/terror groups and bases, without gaining air superiorty or suppresing radars and SAM,
Holy low assed BC Batman.
Looks really good in pictures. The air drag is so high, it can't fly for shit.
And yeah, the giant RCS.
That is true with anything not carrying internal.
Personally, in regard to this a2a battle the eyebrow raiser is the success of the J-10 firing the PL-15 at Euro designs/Russian variants of Soviet designs and coming out on top.
Really makes on wonder about the J-20's capabilities.
LOL!
Princess Nayirah... is it you???
Nobody thinks Desert Storm was a good idea except for al Qaeda, Iran, the al Sabah Dynasty, and the Saudi Royal Family.
Oh, plus the Bushes and the You-Know-Who's...
Baghdad Bob is that you???Princess Nayirah... is it you???
Nobody thinks Desert Storm was a good idea except for al Qaeda, Iran, the al Sabah Dynasty, and the Saudi Royal Family.
Kuwait, the authors of Air Land Battle doctrine, and anyone who likes uninterrupted world oil flow rates probably thought it was a splendid idea.
Your fellow communists in the Soviet Union probably weren’t fans of Desert Storm.
YOU = Commie Shithole.
You think getting attacked by the Terror Kingdoms on 9/11 was a good idea?
You think going back to Iraq to fix the problems created by Desert Storm 11 years later was a good idea?
So that no Middle Eastern country could ever wear pants, make laws in a parliament, or field an air force??
That's dumb.
Just because all the commie faggots in here call each other and everyone else "Commie" doesn't mean a normie like myself can't use it too.
There are little-red-book Commies in here that log on every-single-day to practice their best Kremlin and CCP talking points and talk bad about America.
This is, ostensibly, a firearms site.
That's FASCINATING....
