How do you all feel about this chamber job?
- Thread starter clinebj22
- Start date
Definitely not as good as i hoped. Lots of flyers and seems to struggle to get 1/2” groups at 50. My old anschutz shoots much more consistent
What caliber and if 22LR what ammo and how many different types did you try looking for what this rifle likes?
I have a B-14R and it shoots 10 SK Standard plus into 3/8" at 50, some other brands over an inch every time.
I have a B-14R and it shoots 10 SK Standard plus into 3/8" at 50, some other brands over an inch every time.
I ran a borescope down a brand new 6.5 creedmoor and saw what appeared to be a burr down one of the rifling sections. This was a very expensive rifle. I sent a pic to a gunsmith buddy and he said - “how does it shoot?” It had not yet been fired, so I did the break in and tested 4-5 different ammo weights and manufacturers.
I’ve since shot half MOA at 500 yards, and a little smaller than MOA AT 1,000 with factory cheap ammo.
Shoot it, and test different ammo to see what it likes. Bore scopes are good to tell you if a chamber is clean, but less than good for predicting accuracy. My 2 cents at least.
I’ve since shot half MOA at 500 yards, and a little smaller than MOA AT 1,000 with factory cheap ammo.
Shoot it, and test different ammo to see what it likes. Bore scopes are good to tell you if a chamber is clean, but less than good for predicting accuracy. My 2 cents at least.
Yes 22lr and ive tried several different varieties of sk (long range match, rifle match, pistol match, standard plus), lapua center x, 6 lots of eley match and 2 lots of tennex
View attachment IMG_4752.jpeg
Its the heavy steel barreled version setting in an mpa vanquish. Ive adjusted torque on action screws and shot groups from 20 in/lb up to 65 in/lb looking for a sweet spot
How typical. OP shows photos of a crappy chamber job and he gets quizzed about “how does it shoot?”
No one answered his question.
OP, that chamber looks like crap. I don’t care how it shoots it’s shoddy.
One issue people tend to ignore is that even if poor workmanship shoots well it might not shoot well for long.
No one answered his question.
OP, that chamber looks like crap. I don’t care how it shoots it’s shoddy.
One issue people tend to ignore is that even if poor workmanship shoots well it might not shoot well for long.
Thanks for the pictures.
I've looked at a number of chambers and have never seen one like this.
I'm going to keep the photos as examples of how bad a chamber can be.
If anyone has a picture of a .22LR chamber worse than that please share.
One thing to look for in a chamber is if all the leades are the same length, angle, and have the same shape. You should be able to rotate the barrel in the lathe see they are all identical. Any variation is not good.
As already mentioned, the reamer that made this cut may have been dull or broken. The other possibility is the barrel steel could be flawed in this area and the steel just broke this way. Whatever the cause one would hope they would have looked at it before they shipped it.
TKH
See this thread over on rimfirecentral, the summary is that all the ones people purchased recently at the $650 price point look like yours. This includes the one I got. One guy sent his back and hasn't heard anything in weeks. Josh at Pursuit of Accuracy had a similar issue with the BXR.
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/thre...1322892/page-5?post_id=13746558#post-13746558
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/thre...1322892/page-5?post_id=13746558#post-13746558
That is terrible. Looks like a sack of smashed assholes.
That's not bad, here's some pics from a Clark Custom S&W 41 barrel I got from them a few years ago. It also had damage further down the barrel to the rifling where they probably used some sort of clamp on the interior of the barrel to crown it.
It's an interesting story, I sent Clark the pictures, they were concerned had me send it back for testing. They tested it said it met their standards (I believe 1.75" at 50 yds). They returned it with a test target that frankly is almost too amazing to believe, multiple ragged hole 10 shot groups at 50yds that were all under 1/2". Not only that but they claimed their technicians have no idea what possibly could have caused the damage seen......when other barrel folks chimed in it was pretty clear that an extremely dull reamer would do this.
At the end of the day I mostly shoot offhand so it still shoots better than I ever will. That said even with an optic and off a solid handgun rest I've never even had it come remotely close to groups that lead me to believe it could hold 10 shot 1/2" groups at 50 yards with Eley Match. It groups more like what the pictures of the chamber/rifling make me think it would
Damage in the last 1" of the barrel
It's an interesting story, I sent Clark the pictures, they were concerned had me send it back for testing. They tested it said it met their standards (I believe 1.75" at 50 yds). They returned it with a test target that frankly is almost too amazing to believe, multiple ragged hole 10 shot groups at 50yds that were all under 1/2". Not only that but they claimed their technicians have no idea what possibly could have caused the damage seen......when other barrel folks chimed in it was pretty clear that an extremely dull reamer would do this.
At the end of the day I mostly shoot offhand so it still shoots better than I ever will. That said even with an optic and off a solid handgun rest I've never even had it come remotely close to groups that lead me to believe it could hold 10 shot 1/2" groups at 50 yards with Eley Match. It groups more like what the pictures of the chamber/rifling make me think it would
Damage in the last 1" of the barrel
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My B14R heavy is the same. Obviously a really dull reamer or something. I’ll be contacting Bergara about it. Definitely not a barrel I’ll be wasting testing ammo on. Especially when my goal is long range shooting. Mines also has lots of chatter marks for about an inch in front of that area
I’ll get some pics of mine tomorrow. It’s not just a minor smear either. There’s space between that smear mark and the barrel. Essentially it will cut pieces of the bullet off until it shoots out or pounds down from pressure
Disappointing for sure
I’ll get some pics of mine tomorrow. It’s not just a minor smear either. There’s space between that smear mark and the barrel. Essentially it will cut pieces of the bullet off until it shoots out or pounds down from pressure
Disappointing for sure
Here’s a couple pics from mine. Unfired/brand new
Chatter marks
In these pics the bore scope shows both the side view as well as the camera view in front of it. So you can see the swipe marks and what the look like from the bullets point of view.
Chatter marks
In these pics the bore scope shows both the side view as well as the camera view in front of it. So you can see the swipe marks and what the look like from the bullets point of view.
How typical. OP comes on and ask “how do you all feel about this chamber job” and is given answers based on experience. And then someone comes along and answers a question that wasn’t asked - how does it look, or what do you think caused this. Of course it looks less than perfect and far from ideal. Do I need to post a picture up of a 12” ruler and ask everyone if it is really 12”?
Everyone, put your pitchforks (and your bore scopes) down. Shoot it, and see if it meets the manufacturers accuracy promise. If it doesn’t, send it in for warranty work.
I don’t have enough time today, but when I do, I’ll scope my B14R and a couple of my custom barrels, shoot some groups, and we can play a game of “match the group” to the bore scope picture.
Everyone, put your pitchforks (and your bore scopes) down. Shoot it, and see if it meets the manufacturers accuracy promise. If it doesn’t, send it in for warranty work.
I don’t have enough time today, but when I do, I’ll scope my B14R and a couple of my custom barrels, shoot some groups, and we can play a game of “match the group” to the bore scope picture.
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It's true some guns with ugly bores shoot great, but I've yet to hear anyone convince me that bore damage is a good thing. Show me two barrels from the same manufacturer one that has a horribly cut chamber, chatter marks, bad crown etc. and one that's perfectly done and I doubt there's anyone here that's going to prefer the damaged one.
Referencing an old Terry Cross post on this just because you can get an accurate grouping out of a gun with bore damage doesn't mean it does not have other undesirable qualities like fowling badly, velocity variation/fall off, carbon buildup that's nearly impossible to clean out which can lead to corrosion etc. Regardless of group size, stuff like this in barrels is not a good thing.
Every time someone hows images of barrel damage, or poor barrel making practices, they get shamed into keeping quiet about it if the gun shoots okay, and how people need to stop looking in barrels with borescopes. When what we should be doing is demanding that gun manufacturers start using better processes and QC in their barrel manufacturing.
Referencing an old Terry Cross post on this just because you can get an accurate grouping out of a gun with bore damage doesn't mean it does not have other undesirable qualities like fowling badly, velocity variation/fall off, carbon buildup that's nearly impossible to clean out which can lead to corrosion etc. Regardless of group size, stuff like this in barrels is not a good thing.
Every time someone hows images of barrel damage, or poor barrel making practices, they get shamed into keeping quiet about it if the gun shoots okay, and how people need to stop looking in barrels with borescopes. When what we should be doing is demanding that gun manufacturers start using better processes and QC in their barrel manufacturing.
Humor me on a little diversion, if you would.
Disney has (had the last time was there - I assume it still exists today) this principle at their theme parks of “putting the money in the show.” What that means is they invest heavily in where the guests (aka customers) can see it and experience it. When you go behind the scenes, everything is about as simple as it can be. Plain gray walls, plastic tables, etc. I was there as a part of a customer experience workshop that Disney hosted.
Do you think anyone cares that the toilet Cinderella craps on is not as nice as it could be and the toilet paper is the John Wayne variety? Nope. It doesn’t affect their experience one bit.
Focus on the experience. If you expect perfection, move the gun along to a new owner, and go find a custom maker who will show you bore scope images to approve before shipping a barrel to you. I’m sure the folks buying those guns at $1100 or $1200 would have liked to spent $650. Of course they may have bought a bore scope with their savings…
Disney has (had the last time was there - I assume it still exists today) this principle at their theme parks of “putting the money in the show.” What that means is they invest heavily in where the guests (aka customers) can see it and experience it. When you go behind the scenes, everything is about as simple as it can be. Plain gray walls, plastic tables, etc. I was there as a part of a customer experience workshop that Disney hosted.
Do you think anyone cares that the toilet Cinderella craps on is not as nice as it could be and the toilet paper is the John Wayne variety? Nope. It doesn’t affect their experience one bit.
Focus on the experience. If you expect perfection, move the gun along to a new owner, and go find a custom maker who will show you bore scope images to approve before shipping a barrel to you. I’m sure the folks buying those guns at $1100 or $1200 would have liked to spent $650. Of course they may have bought a bore scope with their savings…
I’m a fan of shoot the gun to see what it does if there are concerns. However I’ll never suggest someone take a brand new gun with known defects and shoot it just to try it. The minute you shoot the rifle or clean it you open up a whole new conversation when you contact the manufacturer.
There’s a difference in conversation between a brand new never touched by owner barrel and one where you fired a bunch of rounds and tried a few cleaning methods.
No different than a retailer like CameralandNY saying they’ll replace/return an optic no questions asked but once you mount the optic it’s between you and the manufacturer. It’s because now you introduced another variable to the equation
You’re also talking about guns designed for “match” quality. Nothing that takes a gouge out of the bullet instantly would indicate match quality.
I’m not saying don’t shoot the rifle. But in my opinion it pays to contact the manufacturer and have the pics prior to shooting and seeing what they want to do with it. If they say shoot it then so be. But the issue is documented from 100% brand new and that takes the scapegoat of the owner having induced damage
I would expect a $300 savage or Mossberg to have issues like this. But we’re discussing a $1000 barreled action .22 lr and that should come with some quality standards. Otherwise you’re just paying for the action in my opinion.
We’re not talking the normal here’s a spot here and there of concern. We’re talking a lot of barrels that were machined clearly with a dull or damage reamer and will definitely gouge the bullet. Which will effect the flight and down range velocity
Let’s also keep in mind .22 are subject more to carbon fouling and leading. Both of which would just love to cuddle with those jacked up lands
There’s a difference in conversation between a brand new never touched by owner barrel and one where you fired a bunch of rounds and tried a few cleaning methods.
No different than a retailer like CameralandNY saying they’ll replace/return an optic no questions asked but once you mount the optic it’s between you and the manufacturer. It’s because now you introduced another variable to the equation
You’re also talking about guns designed for “match” quality. Nothing that takes a gouge out of the bullet instantly would indicate match quality.
I’m not saying don’t shoot the rifle. But in my opinion it pays to contact the manufacturer and have the pics prior to shooting and seeing what they want to do with it. If they say shoot it then so be. But the issue is documented from 100% brand new and that takes the scapegoat of the owner having induced damage
I would expect a $300 savage or Mossberg to have issues like this. But we’re discussing a $1000 barreled action .22 lr and that should come with some quality standards. Otherwise you’re just paying for the action in my opinion.
We’re not talking the normal here’s a spot here and there of concern. We’re talking a lot of barrels that were machined clearly with a dull or damage reamer and will definitely gouge the bullet. Which will effect the flight and down range velocity
Let’s also keep in mind .22 are subject more to carbon fouling and leading. Both of which would just love to cuddle with those jacked up lands
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If these deformities were on the outside of the rifle and truly, purely cosmetic it likely never would have left the factory. It also wouldn't get as much push back from the OEM for replacement if it came out of the box that way. Yet here we are having to battle for them to do the right thing for machine finish quality that actually matters, unless you have a YouTube channel.
Putting a camera in a production barrel and expecting hand made gunsmith quality is a high expectation.
What we are seeing in these pictures is production. Production always has a point where tools and people become dull. Your going to have lessor quality barrels at the end of tool life. You get what you pay for in the end. I picked up my B14r and pulled the never fired barrel off for a one off custom cut Brux barrel with a reamer that had seen 2 chambers. The stock ones shoot pretty well but there is always another level up if thats what you want. Im sure the barrel that i pulled was number 200 off the cnc lathe that Jeff was running while scrolling on his phone and pencil whipping the inspection sheets on 80 percent of the barrels he was running before the reamer snapped off and he was forced to replace it. If they do scope barrels the camera was probably off at calibration during this run. Like said above its all about the claims of the company on what their standards are. Without a camera in there that barrel would pass physical checks and dimensions im sure.
What we are seeing in these pictures is production. Production always has a point where tools and people become dull. Your going to have lessor quality barrels at the end of tool life. You get what you pay for in the end. I picked up my B14r and pulled the never fired barrel off for a one off custom cut Brux barrel with a reamer that had seen 2 chambers. The stock ones shoot pretty well but there is always another level up if thats what you want. Im sure the barrel that i pulled was number 200 off the cnc lathe that Jeff was running while scrolling on his phone and pencil whipping the inspection sheets on 80 percent of the barrels he was running before the reamer snapped off and he was forced to replace it. If they do scope barrels the camera was probably off at calibration during this run. Like said above its all about the claims of the company on what their standards are. Without a camera in there that barrel would pass physical checks and dimensions im sure.
I don't expect custom quality for production prices; that would be foolish. When I scoped my original B14r steel barrel I noted minor imperfections and chatter marks like hafejd30 posted above and I said "well it was half the price of a Vudoo action and it shoots 80% as well as them so whatever".
That said the barrel on my Heavy is another level of ugly and I don't think it's a coincidence that they showed up in the sales channels at a big discount over the "usual" price. A&J were the first to have these and they're still $850 there while Battlehawk and others have them at $650. The real test would be to order one from A&J and see if it arrives with the same 5 o'clock Friday quality that we have all been getting at the lower price point, but I have other things to spend my money on. If anyone has got one from A&J recently and can chime in that would be great.
If you can order one with "normal Bergara" quality from A&J or "HS shop class" quality for $200 less that's fine, but it should be made clear what you're getting so you can make your own decisions. I already said (on here or rimfirecentral) that I knew people were getting ugly barrels and I went ahead with my order anyway because to me the action is worth the $725 (shipping and transfer fees here in MA).
And yes, what we're seeing in these barrels is "production reality" but I expect some level of actual QC before the product goes out the door. Not having that damages your brand reputation in a relatively small marketplace, which is what we are seeing here.
That said the barrel on my Heavy is another level of ugly and I don't think it's a coincidence that they showed up in the sales channels at a big discount over the "usual" price. A&J were the first to have these and they're still $850 there while Battlehawk and others have them at $650. The real test would be to order one from A&J and see if it arrives with the same 5 o'clock Friday quality that we have all been getting at the lower price point, but I have other things to spend my money on. If anyone has got one from A&J recently and can chime in that would be great.
If you can order one with "normal Bergara" quality from A&J or "HS shop class" quality for $200 less that's fine, but it should be made clear what you're getting so you can make your own decisions. I already said (on here or rimfirecentral) that I knew people were getting ugly barrels and I went ahead with my order anyway because to me the action is worth the $725 (shipping and transfer fees here in MA).
And yes, what we're seeing in these barrels is "production reality" but I expect some level of actual QC before the product goes out the door. Not having that damages your brand reputation in a relatively small marketplace, which is what we are seeing here.
Exactly, and exposing this kind of thing encourages manufacturers to address it. As long as they keep getting away with it, and no one calls them out, we as consumers are the ones getting the short end. If they get enough bad press on issues like this, perhaps it will drive change. One thing is for sure, keeping our heads in the sand and bullying people who expose this stuff only serves to keep lower quality products on the market. For far too long this has been "hidden" from consumers because most could never afford a borescope, but now that you can get great images out of a sub-$100 scope we're learning that a lot of these barrels even from reputable manufacturers often look pretty ugly.
If the equivalent damage on the inside of some of these barrels was on a nice walnut stock stock, or exterior surface in a gun store, no one would buy them at full price, and that's on something that's arguably does not even impact function of the gun. Here we have barrel damage that absolutely on some level impacts the function of the gun arguably the most important factor for the gun's accuracy. Even if not in accuracy in how fast it fowls, ease of cleaning, corrosion resistance, etc. It should get the most attention to detail not the least, yet because manufactures for decades have known most owners can't inspect the interior of a barrel, they don't bother.
I get it, no one expects custom barrel quality out of a $200 ruger, but these things should also not be acceptable in mid to upper end factory guns either. I don't expect a factory Remington 700 barrel to look like my custom tubes, but it should not obviously be heavily damaged either.
It's also not just factory guns, that Clark barrel posted above is a custom barrel from a well respected custom shop. We should expect better, not belittle people for pointing it out.
If the equivalent damage on the inside of some of these barrels was on a nice walnut stock stock, or exterior surface in a gun store, no one would buy them at full price, and that's on something that's arguably does not even impact function of the gun. Here we have barrel damage that absolutely on some level impacts the function of the gun arguably the most important factor for the gun's accuracy. Even if not in accuracy in how fast it fowls, ease of cleaning, corrosion resistance, etc. It should get the most attention to detail not the least, yet because manufactures for decades have known most owners can't inspect the interior of a barrel, they don't bother.
I get it, no one expects custom barrel quality out of a $200 ruger, but these things should also not be acceptable in mid to upper end factory guns either. I don't expect a factory Remington 700 barrel to look like my custom tubes, but it should not obviously be heavily damaged either.
It's also not just factory guns, that Clark barrel posted above is a custom barrel from a well respected custom shop. We should expect better, not belittle people for pointing it out.
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I have the B14R heavy barreled action and the chamber looked worse before being shot. Actual curls of metal at the lands. The OP’s picture is what it looks like after 50 or so rounds. So far mine shoots ok, have shot a lot of different ammo, mostly Eley. It shoots decent groups but not consistently (probably me). Trying some bolt shims to see if it improves the Eley. It seemed to shoot thicker rim ammo better so hopefully tighter headspace works on the Eley. If not then I’ll swap barrels.
I got some bolt shims for mine and it gave me a flyer first shot every group with all ammo. I bought the shims for trying eley since lapua is hard to come by. Im around 800-1000 rounds down the tube now and was giving it a good carbon ring scrub hoping to fix the first shot flyers when i found the chamber job looking like this
Maybe we should start a movement for bore scope images to be included with new rifles versus test targets?
Seriously, though, what is the manufacturer’s guarantee? Is it a pretty chamber. I looked, and the only one I found was accuracy. If it doesn’t meet that, then you have a valid claim to have it made right. I’ve not seen anything here that Bergara has failed in any way to correct a valid issue that this action does not meet their standard for performance.
Seriously, though, what is the manufacturer’s guarantee? Is it a pretty chamber. I looked, and the only one I found was accuracy. If it doesn’t meet that, then you have a valid claim to have it made right. I’ve not seen anything here that Bergara has failed in any way to correct a valid issue that this action does not meet their standard for performance.
It's interesting because on the Persuit of Accuracy Youtube channel Josh has a video that specifically addresses this on the BRM X. He shows the borescope of a much nicer looking start to the rifling than we have been showing here. He contacted Bergara and they admitted that it wasn't to spec and they "went back and found more of these rifles that are like this and pulled these and are investigating". They also sent him a new rifle.
So there you go, Bergara may not have a written guarantee that covers delivering a product without completely garbage machining quality but they know garbage when they see it and they make it right....at least if you have a Youtube channel with a large following.
Watch it for yourself here
I sent pics of mine to bergara yesterday. We will see what their response is. Im willing to bet that 99% of us common folk dont get the same treatment with a replacement that he did being that we dont have the same social media following
hey, speak for yourself....I happen to have the most popular rimfire PRS page on Onlyfans!
Interesting. You seem to have missed the point where he said he had shot it first and his buddy “Rimfire SS” contacted him and said to check the bore. Not the other way around.
So let’s go back to the point - what is the guarantee that is not being met? Is it pretty chambering? Or accuracy? Without shooting it, how do you know if the chamber should be inspected?
I am pretty sure the conversation was “I got this rifle, it shoots and gives these groups, and I suspect it is due to this.” Not “I got this rifle, pulled out my microscope to look for any imperfection, and wanted to tell you what I found - no, I haven’t shot it.”
Bergara was shown their product and they said "this does not meet our quality standards, we are inspecting the others and found the same and will not sell these. Here's a new rifle"
What if this? What if that? None of it matters. The people who made the product said that it shouldn't have made it to a customer in that condition. If you are a customer that has a product with this defect, like I and others on the thread are, that's all that matters.
What if this? What if that? None of it matters. The people who made the product said that it shouldn't have made it to a customer in that condition. If you are a customer that has a product with this defect, like I and others on the thread are, that's all that matters.
I have shot mine a bunch with multiple different brands/lots of ammo and it struggled to print 1/2” groups at 50 yards with any of them. I started getting a lot of first round flyers with eley ammo after installing some bolt shims and wanted to check around for a carbon ring suspecting that may be the problem and thats when i found the chamber in the condition in the pics i posted
I emailed pics to them yesterday. Will see if they respond to those before i make any phone calls
I really don’t understand what’s so hard to grasp here. The lands are jacked up. Identical to what Josh shows in his video. He contacted Bergara they clearly identified it as an issue and pulled other guns to try to figure it out and sent him a brand new one
They didn’t just say try it out some more and see if it shoots 1” groups.
It’s a known issue. See what Bergara says before wasting ammo. Simple as that. If they say tough shit then next time just buy a rimx or Vudoo of the px here. You’ll have about the same money into it as the Bergara if you’re just buying a complete barreled action and pulling the barrel that’s jacked anyways
They didn’t just say try it out some more and see if it shoots 1” groups.
It’s a known issue. See what Bergara says before wasting ammo. Simple as that. If they say tough shit then next time just buy a rimx or Vudoo of the px here. You’ll have about the same money into it as the Bergara if you’re just buying a complete barreled action and pulling the barrel that’s jacked anyways
That is context that should be in the first thread. My two B14Rs shoot Eley well. I actually had my first one lot tested at Capstone. It shot that center x well and then about 8 bricks in, it stopped shooting it well. That’s when I found an Eley lot for it.
Most of my rifles have a first round flier. My CZ MTR is the worst. I don’t recall seeing anything unusual in the chamber, but I will double check. I have found using a bore cap between strings helps a ton (pursuit of accuracy has a video on this). I did some testing with that gun and capping versus straw and there is definite opportunity to address it. So the first round flier, in my experience, is not necessarily a chamber issue but is something else.
Sounds like you were there?
Question - do you think this should have been shot, or would cause issues unacceptable to your standards? This is a factory 6.5 creedmoor. It happens to be a bergara. I’ll post up groups at 100, 500 and 1,000 yards using cheap factory ammo after I see your reply. That burr goes a good foot up that one rifling, actually cutting across part of it.
Accuracy, or I should say consistent accuracy, can be affected by many things. But if I'm driving my car and there's a shimmy and I notice half the lugnuts are loose then I'm probably going to start there.
Again, I'm not expecting $1800 action performance out of a $850 ($650 in my case) action, and when I found some blemishes in my b14r steel barrel I was ok with it, BUT there's limits.
Again, I'm not expecting $1800 action performance out of a $850 ($650 in my case) action, and when I found some blemishes in my b14r steel barrel I was ok with it, BUT there's limits.
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