Chasing one of these for 35 years!

[sirhrmechanic]

Winchester 21. Made very early in 1932. Engraved by Domingos Joaquim (DJ) who was Smith and Wesson's Master Engraver in the late '70's and early 1980's. It has some issues, but was dirt cheap at an LGS that specializes in plastic guns and pastel-colored Glocks. The white line spacer needs to go. And it needs a total mechanical overhaul. Which I can do here at the Schloss. But it is a shotgun that is absolutely worthy!

Sirhr

 

[RTH1800]

Lovely!
Congratulations on your acquisition .

 

[FWoo45]

That certainly is a grail piece. I've been loosely hunting for a 20 or 28ga with double triggers. I've read conflicting info about when the double trigger/single trigger change was made?

 

[RTH1800]

The double triggers were only cataloged the first two or three years iirc. After that they were done only on special order. The DT GUNS I have seen were all under 4000 SN.
28 gauges came along later and doubt any had DT.
The 28’s were very heavy due to being 20 ga barrels and frames with smaller holes in the barrels. Not something most folks would care to carry or even shoot skeet with.
A few later 28’s partially corrected this but it’s still not a 28 gauge frame and is heavy.

 

[RTH1800]

I would add that most DT guns are non ejector and splinter forends as well. Very few exceptions.

 

[FWoo45]

I hadn't read much on the 28s. I did read that the DT guns were mainly the first 2 years, I believe '30 and '31?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

That certainly is a grail piece. I've been loosely hunting for a 20 or 28ga with double triggers. I've read conflicting info about when the double trigger/single trigger change was made?

Double trigger were 31 - 32 ish. Single trigger started in early... 1931 to 33 or so. Early guns (this is three-digit serial number) were often retrofitted by the factory. Which I think is the case with this one. It has extractor, only. No double ejector. I have a Cody Letter inbound. Which should confirm. Again, not uncommon with the earliest guns. Single trigger fitted. Ejectors not fitted. As that was a pretty involved conversion.

I'm kind of a Parker guy when it comes to American guns. But one has to also love the L.C. Smith, the A.H. Fox, the Ithaca and the 21. Because they were all the American Best Guns. Can't have one without appreciating all the others. They rank with the London Best guns in engineering and quality and probably outrank them in some ways. They are outranked in engraving and heritage.

But if you want to kill birds, my Parker 20GA Trojan is the best gun I ever fielded. Though I have a lot more dead birds with a Purdey... the Parker is the only one I shot two doubles on grouse with... and have never missed a single bird (or rabbit) ever.

So... 'Merika!

This 21 is a grail piece indeed. Trying to find out from the 21 expert community... if the engraving is a plus or a detriment. The engraver is legendary. The quality of the work puts it 'before or after' his halcyon days. But not sure that matters. He was one of the best in the world in his heyday. Still working on that. On my end, however, it's an American Best gun with engraving (post-factory) by one of America's best engravers.

So... could be a great piece. Or could be an also-ran. But I bought it for almost nothing. So nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Cheers

Sirhr

PS. Patterns beautifully! This is about the most perfect pheasant gun (choke-wise) that I own. I'll take it down to OK this spring and test it out!

 

[Baron23]

View attachment 8712386


Winchester 21. Made very early in 1932. Engraved by Domingos Joachim (DJ) who was Smith and Wesson's Master Engraver in the late '70's and early 1980's. It has some issues, but was dirt cheap at an LGS that specializes in plastic guns and pastel-colored Glocks. The white line spacer needs to go. And it needs a total mechanical overhaul. Which I can do here at the Schloss. But it is a shotgun that is absolutely worthy!

Sirhr

Why get rid of white line bit….isn’t that original to this model/year?

And congrats…I’ve never seen a Mod 21 that was dirt cheap.

Barrel length and chokes??

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Why get rid of white line bit….isn’t that original to this model/year?

And congrats…I’ve never seen a Mod 21 that was dirt cheap.

Barrel length and chokes??

White line is '70's... awful! I think the buttstock was replaced at some point. It is kind of crude. But I can put on a new buttplate and it won't be 'horrible.' I am not sure if I will restock completely. So far, changed my mind in favor of... not.

This gun is January1932. The engraving is later. Choked Mod Full with 26" barrels.

For field pheasants, it's about perfect! For grouse, way too tight. Would be a great duck gun, too!

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I would add that most DT guns are non ejector and splinter forends as well. Very few exceptions.

Yup, this almost certainly shipped as a DT gun. (three digit serial number in 900 range. Puts it in very early 1932). But *could* have been a very, very early ST gun. They started somewhere close to this with the ST. And lots of DT guns were shipped back for conversion very early. It has 'single' extractor. Not ejector. Again... commensurate with early gun. From what I gather, even the factory Single Trigger guns still had double extractors (not ejectors) for some time.

But I'm still learning about the 21's and don't have 'the' book yet. That's the Schwing book. I'm looking for a bargain priced copy now.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[RTH1800]

That book is tough to find at a bargain.
If you want something looked up I will post it for you.

 

[TriggerJerk!]

White line is '70's... awful! I think the buttstock was replaced at some point. It is kind of crude. But I can put on a new buttplate and it won't be 'horrible.' I am not sure if I will restock completely. So far, changed my mind in favor of... not.

This gun is January1932. The engraving is later. Choked Mod Full with 26" barrels.

For field pheasants, it's about perfect! For grouse, way too tight. Would be a great duck gun, too!

Sirhr

I was wondering if that was the original stock. No worries though. Get one fitted to you and enjoy.

 

[RTH1800]

I think the stock is original but much altered.

 

[RTH1800]

Look for Sn under the trigger guard and estuchen for tang bolt.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I think the stock is original but much altered.

If it is, the checkering has been really fucked with. It's not a terrible buttstock. But it does not match the forend perfectly (great figure, dark walnut and perfect checkering.) So I suspect replaced. I could get it to match better, I think.

The main thing is to find out if the engraving is an enhancement (based on the DJ job) or a detriment (As DJ may not have been at the top of his game... and it's not factory.) If his work is a net positive... I have no issues spending the $$$ for a great restock. If it's a negative (because it is good... not superb) I'll be better off economically to get a new buttplate fitted and do some checkering cleaning. Not restock.

Right now, it fits me great. Comes up like it was made for me! So not 'all' that anxious to alter. It's a shooter for sure!

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

That book is tough to find at a bargain.
If you want something looked up I will post it for you.

ABE books has copies. I'll grab one. Just trolling for best price! ;-)

What can I say, I'm a cheapskate!

Sirhr

Edit: Found a good price copy on ABE books and snagged... should be here next week.

 

[RTH1800]

That is great luck. They seem to always go high!
I have owned several of the guns in the book.
At one time I had 25-30 of them.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

21’s are in a league of their own. And the minutiae is like the Parker world. Every detail is captured for posterity and the collector community thrives on it!!

This is a happy snag for me. I’ve wanted one for most of my adult life. This one could be a dud (post-engraving) or a grand slam home run (legendary engraver.)

The gun has a story… that’s for sure. Almost 100 years of life. Now, the question is… can I coax the story out of it!!

BTW the son and daughter of Domingo Joachim are both on the S&W site. Collectors forum, owned by a buddy of mine (e were buddies in Usenet usegroup days in OH.). So have notes out to both as they seem to have all DJ’s duties, notes and sketchbooks.

Here is his signature, BTW.

What I can’t find is his “trademark” eagle head which may indicate he did this early in his career. That said, one of the gold inlays is a pheasant and its head looks like an eagle head… could DJ have got creative and hidden his trademark eagle head as the head of a pheasant??

Well, he was a true artist!!! Self taught. Artists do that sort of thing!!

Sirhr

 

[dpw4x4]

That is a very nice piece. And is a excellent addition to any collection.

 

[Charlie112]

View attachment 8712386
Very nice!!

Winchester 21. Made very early in 1932. Engraved by Domingos Joaquim (DJ) who was Smith and Wesson's Master Engraver in the late '70's and early 1980's. It has some issues, but was dirt cheap at an LGS that specializes in plastic guns and pastel-colored Glocks. The white line spacer needs to go. And it needs a total mechanical overhaul. Which I can do here at the Schloss. But it is a shotgun that is absolutely worthy!

Sirhr

 

[sandwarrior]

Great shotgun! my uncle had one of these and shot a lot of ducks, quail and chuckar with it. A rew pheasants too. kept it like the rest of his guns, carried around in a truck alot. Where it got dust 'built' into it. It was gimy but it still worked good! Enjoy that shotgun! (but I inow you will, I don't have to tell you)

 

[FWoo45]

I love best grade double guns from around the world, but American Best guns have been a dream of mine since pouring over Gene Hill and Michael McIntosh books and articles as a pup. I'm afraid to buy much without a proper fitting and those are hard to come by in my neck of the woods. I'd be severely hesitant to undertake a restocking project on a fine double. Thanks for posting.