Rifle Scopes $2500 MSRP Limit (PRS Production Class)

[ChrisAU]

Who is king? I've shot a bunch of NRL22x/NRL Hunter but haven't gotten into PRS. I have an MPA BA PMR Pro II on order that I don't think I'd change much on anyway, and since it is eligible for Production class figure I might try to keep the optic there as well. Options seem to be slim; FFP/MIL/20x+ max are my criteria.

Most scopes have ridiculous MSRP's compared to street prices. I'd grab a Gen3 Razor and have fun but the MSRP is laughable.

Zeiss LRP S3 6-36 seems to be the best option I can find. Though they are one MSRP bump from being ineligible. XTR Pro is out; feel like the LRP S3 is well ahead of an XTR III? Looked at the Leica PRS 5-30 as well but those don't seem to have much of a following.

Yeah yeah I know, run what you want and shoot open. Still considering that, but setting up rifles for specific purposes is a fun game to play.

 

[4O6shootist]

Lrp S3 reticle is really thick. If you're the kind of shooters whos comfortable with running 18-20X mag all day, it's too bulky. I sold mine. The pr2 mil reticle in a Mk5hd is better I just don't like the 1/4 mil spacing. Too bad the Element Theos isn't same msrp as the Zeiss S3(same optical setup as the S3 and gen3 razor) from LOW Japan. It has a very usable reticle and same glass as the zeiss, but not quite to Gen3 razor level. You can buy the Theos from vendors well under the PRS production price cap.

You're gonna be shooting an open class rifle at 3k msrp. Shoot and open class optic.

You could get the pmr2 in 308.......shoot production tac class and win every trophy cuz you'd be the only guy doing it! I'm just joking, don't shoot 30hate.

 

[ChrisAU]

Lrp S3 reticle is really thick. If you're the kind of shooters whos comfortable with running 18-20X mag all day, it's too bulky. I sold mine. The pr2 mil reticle in a Mk5hd is better I just don't like the 1/4 mil spacing. Too bad the Element Theos isn't same msrp as the Zeiss S3(same optical setup as the S3 and gen3 razor) from LOW Japan. It has a very usable reticle and same glass as the zeiss, but not quite to Gen3 razor level. You can buy the Theos from vendors well under the PRS production price cap.

You're gonna be shooting an open class rifle at 3k msrp. Shoot and open class optic.

You could get the pmr2 in 308.......shoot production tac class and win every trophy cuz you'd be the only guy doing it! I'm just joking, don't shoot 30hate.

The BA PMR Pro 2 is under the $3k production limit.

No worries on shooting production tac…I’m not that desperate lol.

One reason I want to do production class is to limit myself. My NRL gun quickly ballooned into quite the investment with a ZCO and every bell and whistle imaginable. I’m sure I’ll wind up in open, just wanted to dabble in production class and make sure that known distance stuff is worth going full send.

I have a buddies S3 4-25 right now, just compared the reticle in it to my Kahles 525i DLR SKMR4 and my ZCO 527 MPCT2x and I didn’t think the reticle thickness was extremely obvious but really need to get them to the range and look at distance to make sure it wouldn’t bother me.

And yep, shame about the Element. I’d try it out if not for the MSRP.

Considering a Bushy XRS3 with the XQL, in pictures atleast I like that reticle. After a few competitions with my ZCO I really like the floating dots at full mil wind holds.

 

[4O6shootist]

The bushy does well, I've been around a few, in heavy mirage the zeiss will pull ahead. Good conditions they are pretty close.

 

[tlsmith22]

Zeiss S3 hands down for this category. It has great glass and a great reticle.

 

[fdkay]

Have you looked a the Tract Toric, Delta Stryker and Maven offerings?
They are LOW sourced optics with good reputations for build quality, tracking etc...
The Zeiss S3 is also a LOW scope.

 

[ChrisAU]

Have you looked a the Tract Toric, Delta Stryker and Maven offerings?
They are LOW sourced optics with good reputations for build quality, tracking etc...
The Zeiss S3 is also a LOW scope.

I've looked at the Tracts but think I'd prefer an S3 over them. I love my Maven RS1.2's for hunting, I need to look closer at their offerings. Never looked into Delta at all, will give them a google.

 

[jabonra]

I don't know my ass from my elbow but the apex rivalx is 2500msrp I believe might be worth a look too

 

[sheepdog697]

I've had the gen 3 razor.

Currently have a s3 6-36 (I just got of the PX here)
gen 2 razor 4.5-27
t6xi 3-18

The s3 is my favorite. I don't have my old gen3 next to me to compare, but this scope has great glass, and I didn't notice a thick reticle.

I dont think youll be disappointed with the s3

 

[flogxal]

I have Zeiss LRP S3 6-36x, god damn is it nice. I'm old with tired eyes and that scope's clarity makes me think my eyes are at least 30 years younger. Great controls. Best scope I own.

Also have Delta Stryker 3.5-21x, which is like the little brother of that Zeiss to my eyes. Controls slightly less refined, but glass and reticle work great for me.

Both of these, I've used in regional PRS and used reticle tree (vs dialing) in some stages, and didn't find the reticle a problem.

 

[koshkin]

Telson 5-32x56 should be on this list. I am not sure how it compares to S3, but I will need to compare them at some point. I helped Telson with reticles, so I am somewhat partial to it, but I like Zeiss' mrad reticle as well.

 

[Rob01]

The BA PMR Pro 2 is under the $3k production limit.

No worries on shooting production tac…I’m not that desperate lol.

One reason I want to do production class is to limit myself. My NRL gun quickly ballooned into quite the investment with a ZCO and every bell and whistle imaginable. I’m sure I’ll wind up in open, just wanted to dabble in production class and make sure that known distance stuff is worth going full send.

I have a buddies S3 4-25 right now, just compared the reticle in it to my Kahles 525i DLR SKMR4 and my ZCO 527 MPCT2x and I didn’t think the reticle thickness was extremely obvious but really need to get them to the range and look at distance to make sure it wouldn’t bother me.

And yep, shame about the Element. I’d try it out if not for the MSRP.

Considering a Bushy XRS3 with the XQL, in pictures atleast I like that reticle. After a few competitions with my ZCO I really like the floating dots at full mil wind holds.

The Bushnell will be a big let down. I bought one and compared it to some of the others you mentioned and sold it as I was not happy at all with it.

Get the S3. Best out of your list and the reticle is not too thick at all. It’s dark which makes people think it’s thick but it’s not. It’s better than the Tract.

 

[4O6shootist]

Also have Delta Stryker 3.5-21x, which is like the little brother of that Zeiss to my eyes.

Really glad to hear this. I ordered one with the non tree reticle for a hunting/nrl hunter build I have going on. If it's not everything I'm hoping, it'll probably go on my sig cross.

 

[4O6shootist]

Telson 5-32x56 should be on this list. I am not sure how it compares to S3, but I will need to compare them at some point. I helped Telson with reticles, so I am somewhat partial to it, but I like Zeiss' mrad reticle as well.

That's basically another oem clone of the Apex rival no? Specs are near identical on those.

 

[flogxal]

Really glad to hear this. I ordered one with the non tree reticle for a hunting/nrl hunter build I have going on. If it's not everything I'm hoping, it'll probably go on my sig cross.

My only problem is the zero stop blivet/pip/boss on my elevation turret is a little shallow. If I thought it a big issue I would warranty it. But it works okay if I am careful.

Optically I like it a lot. The illumination is very powerful and has a bit of bleed in the tree reticle if you set it bright. Might be hard to get the illumination setting just right in rare contrast situations?

 

[koshkin]

That's basically another oem clone of the Apex rival no? Specs are near identical on those.

Similar. Same OEM, but appears to be a somewhat newer version.

ILya

 

[diggler1833]

Considering a Bushy XRS3 with the XQL, in pictures atleast I like that reticle. After a few competitions with my ZCO I really like the floating dots at full mil wind holds.

I really liked the Bushnell stuff for several years (several years ago). The reticles are a good thickness for most applications, and Ive never had an issue with repeatability or durability. I still have a DMR II on a Grendel, and a LRTS on a hunting rifle.

However, I think that their "glass quality" had been surpassed by most other competitors at this point... enough to where it is obvious too when you put them side by side. The CA is no joke either in my examples. Those aren't deal breakers in daylight PRS stuff, but if you're ever going to use it for anything else it is worth a reconsider IMO.

 

[R_Swanson]

Telson 5-32x56 should be on this list. I am not sure how it compares to S3, but I will need to compare them at some point. I helped Telson with reticles, so I am somewhat partial to it, but I like Zeiss' mrad reticle as well.

That's basically another oem clone of the Apex rival no? Specs are near identical on those.

Similar. Same OEM, but appears to be a somewhat newer version.

ILya

I haven't bought a scope in ~3 years, I am starting to look again for something in the realm discussed in this thread for a new rifle. I am blown away at how many new names have popped up that all seem to be able to source LOW scopes.


2 questions:

- They all seem to be around the same price, and are very similar in design. I assume its a crap shoot if I were to get one that had slightly better glass than another between the brands (and then obviously the slight differences in reticles which may differentiate these scopes). Why would a consumer choose a new brand versus one that has been around for years?

- Is the mark-up this good on scopes that it makes sense for so many people to start a new brand and go source scopes from LOW? It looks like Brownells has exited the market of producing LOW-sourced scopes, and I would presume they have a lot of resources to push a scope at a competitive price vs a start-up brand... Bushnell publicly said on this forum they can't make an LOW-sourced LRTSi again and turn a profit (I am paraphrasing).

I am confused at where the market has headed in general. Any insight?

 

[Agracer]

The BA PMR Pro 2 is under the $3k production limit.

No worries on shooting production tac…I’m not that desperate lol.

One reason I want to do production class is to limit myself. My NRL gun quickly ballooned into quite the investment with a ZCO and every bell and whistle imaginable. I’m sure I’ll wind up in open, just wanted to dabble in production class and make sure that known distance stuff is worth going full send.

I have a buddies S3 4-25 right now, just compared the reticle in it to my Kahles 525i DLR SKMR4 and my ZCO 527 MPCT2x and I didn’t think the reticle thickness was extremely obvious but really need to get them to the range and look at distance to make sure it wouldn’t bother me.

And yep, shame about the Element. I’d try it out if not for the MSRP.

Considering a Bushy XRS3 with the XQL, in pictures atleast I like that reticle. After a few competitions with my ZCO I really like the floating dots at full mil wind holds.

I had a Bushnell DMR3 with the GP4 reticle. Used it for 2-seasons and switched to a Leupold Mk4HD which to me was much cleaner at longer ranges (less mirage, sharper image - but that's just my eye). I switched after I looked thru a Mk5HD at a match and back to back with my DMR3 and the Mk5HD looked a lot better to me on a hot, summer, windy day in KS. The Mk4HD has the same glass, but not some of the coatings. I also liked the simpler reticle on the Leupold and Bushnell vs some scopes that have a 52-marks between 0 and 1MIL....

 

[Southpaw_Outdoorsman]

The Telson Optics 5-32 Victory will be one of your best options under the MSPR requirements, here is a link to my review of it, and if you DM me I can hook you up with one at a discount.

My Review: Telson 5-32x56 Target Master Victory Rifle Scope

My Review: Telson 5-32x56 Target Master Victory Rifle Scope After spending nearly a year with the Telson 5-32x56 Target Master Victory rifle scope, I’ve had the chance to put it through its paces in just about every scenario I could throw at it. From casual range sessions with a .22 LR and...

www.snipershide.com

 

[R_Swanson]

The Telson Optics 5-32 Victory will be one of your best options under the MSPR requirements, here is a link to my review of it, and if you DM me I can hook you up with one at a discount.

My Review: Telson 5-32x56 Target Master Victory Rifle Scope

My Review: Telson 5-32x56 Target Master Victory Rifle Scope After spending nearly a year with the Telson 5-32x56 Target Master Victory rifle scope, I’ve had the chance to put it through its paces in just about every scenario I could throw at it. From casual range sessions with a .22 LR and...

www.snipershide.com

This is another LOW scope, right?

Who is Telson? Their 'about us' page gives ZERO info... like many of these scope companies that have popped up in the past 3-4 years.

 

[koshkin]

This is another LOW scope, right?

Who is Telson? Their 'about us' page gives ZERO info... like many of these scope companies that have popped up in the past 3-4 years.

Telson is pretty new. They had their coming out party earlier this year. I know the guys behind it pretty well. They say they are here to stay, but naturally noone knows with 100% certainty. They seem like pretty serious people, so I assume they mean what they day.

The 5-32x56 is not an LOW product. It is made by JOL in Japan. I have not done a full test on the 5-32x yet, but plan to. I do have their 3-18x50 (also JOL) here and like it quite a bit.

Their 5-25x56(FFP) and 2/5-15x44 (SFP) are made in China and are a little less expensive.

The JOL-made 5-32x56 and 3-18x50 are trying to offer a lot of value for the money in the mid-range $1500-$200 price range.

ILya

 

[R_Swanson]

Telson is pretty new. They had their coming out party earlier this year. I know the guys behind it pretty well. They say they are here to stay, but naturally noone knows with 100% certainty. They seem like pretty serious people, so I assume they mean what they day.

The 5-32x56 is not an LOW product. It is made by JOL in Japan. I have not done a full test on the 5-32x yet, but plan to. I do have their 3-18x50 (also JOL) here and like it quite a bit.

Their 5-25x56(FFP) and 2/5-15x44 (SFP) are made in China and are a little less expensive.

The JOL-made 5-32x56 and 3-18x50 are trying to offer a lot of value for the money in the mid-range $1500-$200 price range.

ILya

As always, thanks opining and offering your insight into the scope world that most of us do not know/see.

Do you have any opinion on the proliferation of companies sourcing LOW scopes, versus just 4-5 years ago? How do you feel about it? More competition drives down prices... Macro 101 and all... but it seems fishy to me... their must either be huge margins or a lot of companies trying to pick up pennies in front of a steamroller.

If you would prefer not to address this, I understand as well.

 

[SRPowah]

The constant struggle of "I don't want to drop thousands of dollars on something when the company could be gone next year" vs "the company will be gone next year if people don't take the risks to support them."

I am very interested in the future Telson vs Zeiss S3 comparison.

 

[Southpaw_Outdoorsman]

Telson is a Canadian owned, premium optic company that was born out of passion for the industry and frustration in the market with overpriced products that were never quite right. Telson is new to the market but comes with years of experience of running businesses and shooting. The entire team is composed of hunters and professional shooters that want to deliver the absolute best service and gear. Their goal is to build scopes that punch above their weight and stand up to real world use.

This is another LOW scope, right?

Who is Telson? Their 'about us' page gives ZERO info... like many of these scope companies that have popped up in the past 3-4 years

 

[R_Swanson]

Telson is a Canadian owned, premium optic company that was born out of passion for the industry and frustration in the market with overpriced products that were never quite right. Telson is new to the market but comes with years of experience of running businesses and shooting. The entire team is composed of hunters and professional shooters that want to deliver the absolute best service and gear. Their goal is to build scopes that punch above their weight and stand up to real world use.

Lol... thanks for the ChatGPT reply.

This is the same marketing trash/jargon that is on their website and all these newer companies websites. Means absolutely nothing to me.

 

[Southpaw_Outdoorsman]

Wasnt chatgpt, tried to write it professionally sorry you didnt like it, cant make everyone happy, the optics speak for themselves. Im currently ranked 2nd in the world in ELR light with the 5-32x56 Victory, and have nothing but top 5 finishes this year so far. We have a no BS warranty and better customer service than most companies and are here to take care of shooters. We try to put certificates on as many match tables as I can get ahold of or that will let us.

 

[SRPowah]

Wasnt chatgpt, tried to write it professionally sorry you didnt like it, cant make everyone happy, the optics speak for themselves. Im currently ranked 2nd in the world in ELR light with the 5-32x56 Victory, and have nothing but top 5 finishes this year so far. We have a no BS warranty and better customer service than most companies and are here to take care of shooters. We try to put certificates on as many match tables as I can get ahold of or that will let us.

Wait, wait, wait... There is a lot of "We" here. You are part of Telson but didn't disclose that once in your review?

And I lean towards agreeing with Swanson here... that professional fluff means nothing. Koskin saying he knows the guys behind Telson means a helluva lot more than any of the generic messaging. Would love to know more about their backgrounds.

 

[Southpaw_Outdoorsman]

Wait, wait, wait... There is a lot of "We" here. You are part of Telson but didn't disclose that once in your review?

I was hired onto the company at a later date. The review was copied from another place I had previously posted it. I was originally part of the T&E for the company then was later asked to join fulltime- Not here to get in a pissing match, here to put quality optics in the hands of shooters and save them some money.

 

[Southpaw_Outdoorsman]

Also if you would like to see other reviews, i encourage you to look them up on youtube, and there will be more added soon!

 

[Milf Dots]

Forget MSRP. Focus on average street price as your guide.

 

[SRPowah]

I was hired onto the company at a later date. The review was copied from another place I had previously posted it. I was originally part of the T&E for the company then was later asked to join fulltime- Not here to get in a pissing match, here to put quality optics in the hands of shooters and save them some money.

That makes more sense, but you probably should have disclosed that earlier in the thread. You are probably a cool person and the scopes might be a great value, but you are unintentionally giving off Arken shill vibes.

Im still looking forward to Koshkin's comparison to the Zeiss, and will keep Telson in mind.

 

[R_Swanson]

Wasnt chatgpt, tried to write it professionally sorry you didnt like it, cant make everyone happy, the optics speak for themselves. Im currently ranked 2nd in the world in ELR light with the 5-32x56 Victory, and have nothing but top 5 finishes this year so far. We have a no BS warranty and better customer service than most companies and are here to take care of shooters. We try to put certificates on as many match tables as I can get ahold of or that will let us.

Also if you would like to see other reviews, i encourage you to look them up on youtube, and there will be more added soon!

That's great that you are a ranked ELR shooter - but as I mentioned numerous times in this thread, there are a plethora of choices these days in branded, OEM scopes from Japan, and it seems like new ones popping up everyday. I don't care about youtube reviews, or marketing jargon, or even a 'No BS warranty', as that is table stakes at this point (and who to say you will be around in a few yrs if a need warranty work).

To potentially take a flier on a new company, I want to know who is actually behind the company, their backgrounds, etc, hence my question and follow up comment. This is a crowded market, and everyone seems to be right around the same price point, +/- a couple hundred bucks.

 

[Southpaw_Outdoorsman]

That makes more sense, but you probably should have disclosed that earlier in the thread. You are probably a cool person and the scopes might be a great value, but you are unintentionally giving off Arken shill vibes.

Im still looking forward to Koshkin's comparison to the Zeiss, and will keep Telson in mind.

If you want, let me know the area you shoot in the most, we have several prostaff and people around the country, could see if any are in your neck of the woods to let you get a look through the glass, or let me know what good shows are in your area and maybe we will get a booth there.

 

[koshkin]

As always, thanks opining and offering your insight into the scope world that most of us do not know/see.

Do you have any opinion on the proliferation of companies sourcing LOW scopes, versus just 4-5 years ago? How do you feel about it? More competition drives down prices... Macro 101 and all... but it seems fishy to me... their must either be huge margins or a lot of companies trying to pick up pennies in front of a steamroller.

If you would prefer not to address this, I understand as well.

I have no problem addressing it, but I am about to kick off a livestream where it will likely come up.



If you have time tune in. We will get rolling in about fifteen minutes.

ILya

 

[4O6shootist]

Telson is a Canadian owned, premium optic company that was born out of passion for the industry and frustration in the market with overpriced products that were never quite right. Telson is new to the market but comes with years of experience of running businesses and shooting. The entire team is composed of hunters and professional shooters that want to deliver the absolute best service and gear. Their goal is to build scopes that punch above their weight and stand up to real world use.

I'm just gonna say, review looks and smells like a long based advertisement. Telson took an oem scope design already in use by a Canadian company, changed it to 5-32 and put a different reticle in it. You a big fan the Apex rival too?

 

[R_Swanson]

I have no problem addressing it, but I am about to kick off a livestream where it will likely come up.



If you have time tune in. We will get rolling in about fifteen minutes.

ILya

I watched after the fact, good discussion. I didnt see that topic brought up, I'll try to keep an eye out and join next time and ask.

 

[koshkin]

I watched after the fact, good discussion. I didnt see that topic brought up, I'll try to keep an eye out and join next time and ask.

It was on my list, but we ran out of time. I'll have to have Scott back for another one.

The gyst of it is that more competition is a good thing. If it wasn't for the small guys popping up and trying to something a little different, even if it is with an overall similar design, the larger players get lazy and sit on their laurels. There are plenty of examples of that.

Because the market is so saturated, you have to put some thought into what you are doing if you want to stand out in any way at all. That drives the market to get better.

Not all scopes from the same OEMs are the same. We did talk about that. However, with reputable companies, they are pretty close in terms of build quality.

Hell, I almost started an optics company a few years ago because I could not get a reticle I wanted. Thankfully, I did not. That would be a lot of work. However, that is when I started to design reticles for other people, so I got closer to what I really wanted to shoot with.

Given how substantial the market is, there is space for quite a few players and they do occasionally rotate. Some go down. Some go up.

ILya

 

[R_Swanson]

It was on my list, but we ran out of time. I'll have to have Scott back for another one.

The gyst of it is that more competition is a good thing. If it wasn't for the small guys popping up and trying to something a little different, even if it is with an overall similar design, the larger players get lazy and sit on their laurels. There are plenty of examples of that.

Because the market is so saturated, you have to put some thought into what you are doing if you want to stand out in any way at all. That drives the market to get better.

Not all scopes from the same OEMs are the same. We did talk about that. However, with reputable companies, they are pretty close in terms of build quality.

Hell, I almost started an optics company a few years ago because I could not get a reticle I wanted. Thankfully, I did not. That would be a lot of work. However, that is when I started to design reticles for other people, so I got closer to what I really wanted to shoot with.

Given how substantial the market is, there is space for quite a few players and they do occasionally rotate. Some go down. Some go up.

ILya

Yeah, that bolded part was a good discussion. In general I like how you drive the topic to where you want it to be and ensure Scott follows you, so it elicits a fruitful conversation. It's a good listen.

Appreciate the general response as well. Agree with your point around market dynamics... will be interesting to see where all of this lands with so many companies these days.